Alcohol-Free Cocktail Bitters Journey

Speaker 1 1:13

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Low no Drinker podcast . I am joined today all the way from the other side of the pond by the lovely Ian Blessing from All the Bitter , and he is here because he makes some amazing cocktail bitters and they are all alcohol free and I really want to know more about them because I think it's one of those subjects that people don't really know very much about , particularly for the home bartender enthusiast . Someone who hasn't worked in the industry before may not have come across bitters as part of their cocktail making experience . So , ian , thank you very much for joining me . How are you doing today ?

Speaker 2 1:49

I'm good . Thank you for having me .

Speaker 1 1:51

You're very welcome , glad to have you , and I know you're stateside at the moment . Whereabouts in America are you ?

Speaker 2 1:57

We're in Northern California . It's a little town called Tico , about an hour and a half north of Sacramento .

Speaker 1 2:03

Oh , okay , all right , fantastic . I can't say I've ever been there , but at least people know where they're . They're hearing from you , from so amazing stuff . I love to start at the beginning , so , if you're comfortable , take me back as far as you would like . Tell me what was the journey that brought you to the point where you are now .

From Michelin-starred restaurant to...

Speaker 2 2:23

Well , that's an open end question . Where did it start ? It started when I was 18 and started drinking too much . That's really where it started . But you know , flash forward , you know , 15 years or so and continued to make too much and work in restaurants . I got into hospitality , loved the environment , loved working with people , serving people and honestly loved that . You know , you went out for drink after work every night with all of your coworkers and didn't have to work until kind of a cough in it evening , you know , and could drink too much and be hungover and sleep all day and wake up and do it again the next day . So that's where it really started , where our company , you know , really got it . It's beginning was at the French laundry , a three star Michelin restaurant in the Napa Valley , where I worked with my now wife and we . I started as a food runner and my wife partly changed me as a food runner , and then I joined the wine team and we worked together on the wine team as some all yeah . So you know we are .

Speaker 2 3:37

Our lives revolved around beverage , whether it was , you know , overindulging , recreationally or professionally . You know working and serving , you know , night night wine , alcohol , booze on a nightly basis and then spending , you know , most of our free time studying wine . So it was either , you know , drinking for fun , drinking for study , to advance our careers , or , you know , drinking and serving at work . So it was . It was everything , you know , it was all encompassing and we my wife Carly and I , got married and had kids and decided that we didn't want to drink anymore . You know , after our first son was about five months old , it became very obvious that we couldn't continue drinking the same way that we had drank in the past . Babies don't clear . If you're drunk or hungover they wake up , you know , every two hours , no matter what , they don't , they don't care what your , what your deal is .

Speaker 2 4:37

So , pretty , pretty quickly , it was obvious that we had to change how we were living and we both could drink and together and got really into the non alcoholic beverage world as consumers . We found non alcoholic beer . You know , I think , like

Discovering low/no drinks

Speaker 2 4:52

a lot of people , we were under the impression that a dual was the only option and then , you know , it was was very excited , relieved to learn that there were things like IPA and stours and porters and stouts and you know , all of these different beers that you could enjoy the flavor of without the alcohol and got really into making drinks at home , really into non alcoholic spirits , and started making cocktails and realized very quickly that there were a huge range of spirits we had built , you know , like your bar behind you we had built a bar with 30 , 40 spirits at home but there were very few options for alcohol free cocktail bitters . And you know it's an ingredient that you use very little of in a drink but it's a very important ingredient , in the same way that salt and pepper you use very little of it a dish , but it's a very important ingredient , you know . You sure you can make a dish without seasoning , but it's bland . You know you don't cook without seasoning . In the same way that you really shouldn't make drinks without bitters .

Speaker 2 5:58

Not every drink need fitters but lots of them do and we can get into that . But that was , you know , that was really where it started was realizing that there was a crucial ingredient that was very underrepresented in the marketplace . And it was the middle of the pandemic . We didn't really know what we were doing . You know bars and restaurants and all closed . We had two small children , didn't want to work in restaurants anymore , wanted to work in the non-alcoholic space somehow , and this is , this is what we can do , this is where we can , you know , kind of contribute to to this growing marketplaces by creating some bitters to go with it .

Speaker 1 6:36

Amazing . I love your story and a lot of what you said really resonates with me . I met my husband in the same bar company that we used to work for as well , so he worked in one down the road , but he was a hit bar and I was on the management side . I also , you know , after having kids , I used to use the phrase a lot . My kids don't care when I'm hungover , you know , and I think that that first hangover I had then my son was very small and , granted , I didn't sort of change my habits for quite a while afterwards , but it's so deceit in my head and I was hangover like nobody's business and he was , you know , being a baby wanting attention , and it was the most painful day that I can recall . And it really does open your eyes to the fact that you know you're just making life harder for yourself . Obviously , all his needs were met and he was well cared for , but I just remember thinking why am I doing this to myself ? So I totally hear where you're coming from .

Speaker 1 7:34

Yeah , and I think it's funny you mentioned , you know , odell's . I think that must be a brand over there that was quite well known for being alcohol free . We have a couple over here that are often mentioned . With that same sort of rice smile , people go . You know that was the only one and my God it wasn't very good .

Learning & loosing

Speaker 1 7:58

Did you have any experience with the whole process or any knowledge of how you would go about creating these bitters ? Because you know a lot of people they're getting to hear you kind of know a bit about it . Right , you know what the ingredients are . Did you have any knowledge about the whole bitter world beforehand ?

Speaker 2 8:15

No . So yes and no , we were beverage professionals , so we understood bitters . We used bitters in cocktails in our bar program , you know , and I think the biggest piece was we understand flavor . You know , we I had never made bitters before . I knew how bitters were made . I , you know , I understood the basics of it , but I was never into bitters . Our focus was wine specifically . We had a wine bar program . You know , I was , I had a couple of toes in the cocktail world , you know , in the spirit world , but our focus was more on the wine side .

Speaker 2 8:57

So a lot of this was new and , to be honest , that was a big part of what was so appealing about this was not only when we put drinking did we lose the ritual and the flavor of alcoholic drinks . Yes , we drank to get drunk , but we also drank because we love the flavor , we love the ritual , we love the story , we love the history of these drinks , we love sharing them , we love everything , everything that goes into alcoholic drinks , and a big part of that is learning . A big part of that is learning about the product , about how they're made , about their history , about their function . So it was really cool to then go from losing all of those pieces the drinking part , the socializing part , the flavor part but also losing the study aspect . That was part of my chair . Give me one second . This is a little awkward , but I'm a quick chair . My chair keeps dropping down to the ground .

Speaker 2 9:56

That's better . We lost that aspect of it and I really enjoyed this study part . I really enjoyed the history . So it was cool to now be able to make cocktails and to learn about cocktail history , to learn about where these drinks are from , who made them , where they came from , the components in them . You know variations in drinks , all these things and I didn't really take the time to study before . I never made drinks at home . You know , I think , like a lot of us , I would buy a bottle of booze and it would be gone , like I never built a bar because the bottle wouldn't last long enough . You know , I made cocktails at work , but I was never making cocktails at home . I never really studied cocktail culture , cocktail history . So it was cool to be able to now play in that space .

Speaker 2 10:44

You know , and part of what's so cool about non-alcoholic drinks is that it enables people who have either quit drinking or never drank in the first place to be welcomed into that world . You know , as somebody , I love the idea of somebody who's never had a drink being able to go in and now sit down at a bar and order a cocktail and watch the show , watch the performance of bartender making you a great drink . So that's a really cool experience that if you've never consumed alcohol , you've never had any reason to sit at the bar and order a drink . You've missed out on that . Like . That's a big part of like human culture . So it's cool to be kind of invited back in and to start to learn more about cocktails , more about spirits , more about plastic drinks , flavor profiles of drinks , and then to learn about bidders and to learn about how bidders are made .

Speaker 2 11:39

The various flavor profiles of these bidders that we started making you know a little more in-depth than I had done before , because the goal was and where we started was essentially trying to recreate the three most plastic bidders that are on the market and that are used in cocktails . And so we started with Vangostura . Is your the most ubiquitous bidder in the world ? Every single bar carries Vangostura , even if you don't know what bidders are , you've absolutely seen a bottle of it . If you look at it again , you'll probably recognize it . It's the oversized , you know white label and the yellow cap . That's what's used in most cocktails if cocktails fall for bidders . So we started with a version of that . We started with a version of a bidder called Peixode , which is very Anna-forward and kind of a fruity style of bidder , a little lighter than Angostura and very Anna-heavy so if you don't like licorice you might not enjoy it and an orange bidder which is , you know , orange bidders . So we started with those three flavors .

Speaker 2 12:47

So it was really cool to really dive into those three plastics and those flavor profiles and work on recreating those without alcohol , which is obviously a challenge . Any non-alcoholic drink are going to have , you know , some kind of challenge to them . How do you get these to be as flavorful , as interesting as alcoholic beverages ? So that was the challenge and it took about a year to crack it . And we spent a year in our home kitchen in Maitingars there were about 100 Maitingars scattered around the house in various stages of maceration and being ready , and so this is a good place to kind of explain how bidders are made .

Speaker 2 13:27

It's pretty straightforward , to be honest . There's no distillation , there's no fermentation . You know you're not making alcohol when you make bidders , the alcohol is already made . You're typically taking high-proof alcohol , so a very strong either vodka or rum or ever-spare , something like that , and essentially infusing raw botanical into it , so kind of like brewing tea or soft or like sun tea would be a good example . Or like cold brew coffee . It's the same idea , but over a longer period of time and with a variety of different herbs and spices and

Alcoholic vs. Non-Alcoholic Bitters

Speaker 2 14:04

ingredients . So the key differences between how we make our bidders and how you make alcoholic bidders they're very similar . Ours take longer and their art is their base , but otherwise they're made in a very similar fashion .

Speaker 2 14:17

Alcoholic bidders , you throw whatever your ingredients are and they can be anything . There's no definition of bidders , unlike you know , gin or tequila or bourbon , that might stay . Very specifically , you need to use these ingredients for the happenings made in this place . There's no definition . Bidders don't even happen to necessarily be bidders . There's products out there called bidders that don't contain any bidder ingredient . That's a little funny . I have an issue with that . But there's no board , there's no certifying agency that says you need to use these ingredients .

Speaker 2 14:52

But typically you're going to use a combination of bitter roots and herbs , things like genshin root , cinchonum bark , fostum bark , warm wood it would be a good example . We use the Andy Lion and Burdock root , which are both bitter and are great for your liver and your digestive system in general . So a combination of bitter herbs , any number of spices . Our aromatic bidder sprinkles are very heavy on the warm spices Cinnamon , cloves , nutmeg , ginger fruits , citrus peel , nuts , flowers , literally anything you can think of . However you want to flavor your bidders , you can use those ingredients . So you throw all your ingredients into a container , essentially , and you top it with your high-proof spirit and you let it mat the race for anywhere from a week to two weeks , maybe three weeks for alcoholic bidders .

Speaker 2 15:49

We do the same thing , but we use a base of vegetable glycerin , water and a little bit of apple cider vinegar . So vegetable glycerin is essentially a byproduct of vegetable oil . Water spins it out a little bit because glycerin is very viscous , it's very thick , and apple cider vinegar really just helps with extraction . We don't use enough for the bidders to taste like vinegar . You can make bidders with vinegar vinegar actually does work but then your bidders end up tasting like vinegar , which isn't what we're going for . So we use just a little bit , just enough to really give it a boost of flavor , to help with extraction and to lower the pH . So a little bit of vinegar helps for us with shelf stability , because glycerin itself is very stable . It's shelf stable but it's obviously not as stable as alcohol . Alcohol is incredibly stable and is a really , really good extractor of flavor .

Speaker 2 16:48

Glycerin works . It works well , but it doesn't work as well as alcohol does . So there's two key differences . We use probably three times the amount of raw ingredients compared to making alcoholic bidders , simply because we need to pack more flavor into these . Because alcohol extracts so well , we need to add more ingredients to give us the same intensity of flavor . We also have to let it sit for longer . So alcoholic bidders might take two weeks , ours take two months . We let our sit anywhere from six to eight weeks usually eight weeks , sometimes more to fully extract all of that flavor out of the ingredients . So a lot of that was learned when we started and it was a lot of trial and error . It was a lot of testing various recipes until we landed on the right combination of ingredients . And we've been doing this now for two years at a commercial level and still make small changes to the recipes almost every batch . Nothing I don't think that anybody would notice , but very , very small tweaks over the last couple of years to continue really pushing and getting these to the world class level of flavor that we're going for alcohol or you know , bidders are Not used for their alcoholic content .

Speaker 2 18:07

Bitters are alcoholic by nature , like vanilla extract is alcoholic , because alcohol is a good extractor of flavoring . But you're not using vanilla for the alcohol . You're not using bitters for the alcohol . You can drink them . You can get drunk on bitters , absolutely .

Speaker 2 18:53

You can open a bottle of bitters and drink it , and it gets you just as drunk as anything else , which is why lots of people in sobriety don't want to keep alcoholic bitters in their house , because it's a temptation . Also , people don't necessarily want to add even just a few dashes of 45% alcohol to their otherwise non-alcoholic drink . There's plenty of people in sobriety people who are not drinking , whatever you want to call it that are comfortable using alcoholic bitters . I am . I don't mind using a few dashes of bitters in my drink , but my wife currently does them . We quit drinking at the same time . We share a lot of the same habits and I'm comfortable using bitters and she isn't . So it's a very personal thing and that's understandable . If somebody has quit drinking , if alcohol has ruined their life , they may not want to add two dashes of 45% alcohol to their drink , even if they know it's not going to get them drunk .

Speaker 1 19:50

That's great , because that was going to be one of my questions , because it's such a small amount of the drink . So when people are using bitters they're only using a couple of dashes , so how much roughly would be going into a drink ?

Speaker 2 20:04

Anywhere from one to three dashes , typically in a cocktail , bitters and soda , where you're just mixing bitters with soda water . You might use anywhere from five to ten dashes in a drink because that's the only ingredient . So a common misconception and what I hear a lot is adding a couple dashes of bitters is negligible and that's open to interpretation . Negligible is not a set amount , it's whatever you're comfortable with . But we see people frequently say that it's basically 0% alcohol and that's not true . The definition of non-alcoholic is 0.5% alcohol or less . A really good example is a non-alcoholic old-fashioned which would be four ounces of liquid total , including dilution . So let's say two and a half ounces of whiskey and then you add ice and you stir it and the final drink is four ounces of liquid . Even just two dashes of bitters in an old-fashioned in four ounces of liquid is 0.57% alcohol , not going to get you drunk . You could drink a thousand of them and still be sober because your body's going to have to metabolize it more quickly than you can drink it . But that drink , by definition , is alcohol . If that means anything to you or not , that's up to you . It's not going to get you drunk . Are you comfortable with it ? That's fine . But in a hospitality setting , in a bar or a restaurant , that drink is technically alcoholic . If you put non-alcoholic on the menu , that's incorrect . I as a hospitality professional would not want to set myself up for that liability .

Speaker 2 21:42

I don't know why somebody's not drinking . It could be for recovery reasons , which you might not be comfortable with it . It could be for meds . If you're taking something like antibus , which is to help prevent you from drinking , swallowing a little bit of mouthwash might set it off . So antibus is if you drink on the alcohol , it gives you a violent reaction to it . You get violently sick and probably have to go to the hospital . It is a safe start to keep you from drinking . Mouthwash can trigger it . A few dashes of bitters can trigger it .

Speaker 2 22:13

Somebody who has cirrhosis and their doctor said you can have zero alcohol . They might not want to risk two dashes of bitters in a drink . Somebody who doesn't drink for religious reasons doesn't want any alcohol in their drink , no matter how much . So there's so many reasons why people might want zero and even you know that example of an old fashioned absolutely not going to get you drunk . But those two dashes still might be too much for somebody , especially in a bar or restaurant setting where you don't know why your guest isn't drinking .

Speaker 2 22:43

And so , from my perspective , if I'm serving somebody and I'm using Angostura and non-alcoholic cocktail , I would steal the need to ask every single person that ordered it if they were comfortable with the alcoholic bitters that we use . In the same way that if we cooked our veggie burger in bacon fat , I would have to ask every single guest hey , are you ? We cooked that in bacon fat , is that okay ? Some people might be ugly with it because they're not vegetarian , they're just trying to eat less meat . But you're going to have a significant number of people looking you like you're crazy and saying , no , that's okay .

Speaker 2 23:15

And why would you do that ? Why would you alienate a significant portion of people who are ordering this that obviously don't want bacon fat ? So , anywhere from a couple dashes to more . And yes , you can use alcoholic bitters and still have them fall under 25% , but you've got to be really careful about it . You've got to know exactly how many ounces of liquid are in your drink , how many dashes of bitters you're using . If you're in a bar or restaurant , you've got to oversee every bartender and make sure they're using it appropriately , not going to get you drunk , but definitely a liability from a hospitality perspective .

Speaker 1 23:52

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Speaker 1 24:36

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Speaker 1 25:32

And now back to the show . Absolutely , and I think , as you say , we don't know people's reasons , and very much for me . I don't care what people's reasons are . Whatever your choices are for wanting to drink a bit less . I think what's great about Browseite Yorza is that it gives people the option for those times when they choose not to , for whatever those reasons are . And actually it's interesting you're talking about the couple of dashes that are making it over alcohol free , because actually in the UK it's 0.05%

How much to use?

Speaker 1 26:02

.

Speaker 2 26:04

So zero dashes , then would be , appropriate in a restaurant setting .

Speaker 1 26:08

Exactly , and so it's . You know , there is actually talk at the moment about changing it to be the same as you guys and most of Europe , at 0.5% , because of all the reasons that you mentioned , sort of things like the amount of alcohol , your body being able to process it so quickly that it would never get you drunk . But until that happens , people are still , you know , concerned , right , you saw about what that label says and wanting to make sure that what they get is what the label says and they understand it to be . And you're right , you know , sort of in a cocktail , is it negligible , is it not ? But in something like bitters and soda , there's a lot more going in there , right ? So that's making a lot more of a significant difference for people .

Speaker 2 26:50

Yeah , and it's by volume . You know it's alcohol by volume , bitters and soda . You know you might have eight ounces or 12 ounces of soda water so you can use more dashes of bitters and it's still going to . You know it's not necessarily going to get that high but again you know I need to look at the math . Let's say eight ounces of bitters that you could probably use three or four dashes Four would be the most . I think I need to look at the math , but probably four dashes is the most in eight ounces of soda , which is , again , that's very easy to go over . You're making bitters in soda like you're not going one , two , that's not very much flavor , like you're going to get pretty aggressive with it and it's probably going to go over 0.5% . Again , doesn't necessarily matter unless it matters to you , but it definitely matters to a lot of people .

Speaker 2 27:38

The nice thing about you know one of the , I think , the biggest shelling points for our product and along the same lines as everything else in the non-alcoholic space , most consumers , most people that are buying non-alcoholic beverages , aren't necessarily sober . They are buying them in addition to alcohol . They're supplementing what they normally drink , to drink less , to drink differently , to not drink during the week to have an option for their friends when their friends come over . It's not necessarily about , you know , ditching alcohol entirely . It's about changing the way that we drink , and our bitters work into that perfectly because I started to mention this earlier like vanilla extract , you're not using it for alcohol content , you're just using it for flavor . So our bitters can absolutely and should be used in alcoholic cocktails as well as non-alcoholic cocktails , you know so we have . A number of our customers are buying them because they're great bitters . They've won 25 awards .

Speaker 2 28:38

You know they're made with organic and wild-forged ingredients . They're made by hand in a very slow process . You know they taste great . They're really good examples of bitters . They have functional benefits . We've really passed them as full as we can with wonderful ingredients like dandelion root , bird-hawk , milk-pixel , seed for your liver gentian root , ginger , fennel , adaptogens like Apaganda , oli , basil , shazamzeberry , lemon balm . You know we've included a lot of really wonderful ingredients that you're not necessarily going to find in traditional cocktail bitters . We've used a lot of ingredients that you're going to find in dietary supplements , in digestive bitters , that are not taken for flavor , they're taken for their function .

Speaker 2 29:25

Cocktail bitters are used for flavor rather than function . We've brought them together . We wanted to create something that was equally that's a deep consideration to both of those . They're designed first and foremost for flavor , but every single ingredient has a purpose . Every ingredient has a functional benefit to it beyond just flavor .

Speaker 2 29:48

So there's a million reasons why you might want to use these in alcoholic cocktails and as somebody who then might as a family member or a friend who doesn't drink , or you don't drink on the weekend or during the week or whatever .

Speaker 2 30:00

Now you have a bottle on your home bar that you can use to make a fully alcohol-free bitters and soda , or a lemon-lime and bitters , or add it to just ginger beer or tonic as a way of really easily spicing up a simple mixer so that your guests who are visiting feel like you made something special for them and you don't have to actually make them a proper cocktail . You don't have to make the time to buy a bunch of other ingredients , like you've already got your bottle of bitters that you're using in your alcoholic cocktails and now your friend comes over and you can make them a ginger beer with lime and a few dapes of our aromatic bitters , which is super easy , and that's going to make them feel special and seem that you're not just handing them , you know , flavored seltzer or a l'afroil or something you're like , giving them a nice drink that they can enjoy . And it was super easy to make .

Speaker 1 30:49

So tell me a bit more about what the bitters actually do to a drink . So you know , a lot of people might not have ever used bitters at home . You know something that you might see on the bar or back bar if you go out into a nice establishment . But for somebody at home who's just sort of making their way into this world of you know home cocktails and they might be trying to try a few different things , you can see you've got your amazing range here , but what do they actually do to a drink ?

Speaker 2 31:18

So bitters do a few things . One of the biggest misconceptions is that adding bitters to your drink is going to make it taste bitter . Bitters on their

Misconceptions

Speaker 2 31:27

own are generally very bitter if you taste it straight , but you're adding such a little amount that it's not going to overwhelm your drink . It's not going to make your drink taste bitter necessarily unless you use a lot . It does a couple of things . The first is that that bitterness helps to balance other flavors . It helps to balance sweet and sour flavors , predominantly in cocktails . Most cocktails are sweet and sour , that's those are the primary , you know , flavor notes that we see in most cocktails . So something like a whiskey sour that might not necessarily call for bitters or margarita is a good example . The classic recipe doesn't call for bitters .

Speaker 2 32:07

Adding bitters to those drinks is wonderful because that bitterness helps to balance the sweet and the sour component . It also adds another layer of flavor . So the second thing that it does is add whatever the flavor is of those bitters . So angostura or our aromatic bitter are heavily spiced Cinnamon cloves , cardamom , nutmeg , et cetera . You're adding those flavors . So those flavors all work really well with whisky . That's why we use them in an old fashioned Manhattan , because those flavors complement whiskey really nicely .

Speaker 2 32:38

It does the same thing in an old fashioned You're taking you got an old fashioned whiskey and sugar . If you just had whiskey and sugar , that would be a little bit out of balance . You're just sweetening whiskey . At that point the bitters that help to balance the sugar cube . So the whiskey helps to soften the whiskey and then the bitters help to balance the sweetness of the sugar cube . You know all three of those things work together in harmony . The bitters then also add their own flavor . They add those spices that are complementary to the whiskey .

Speaker 2 33:08

It does the same thing in Manhattan . Manhattan is whiskey and the vermouth . The vermouth is adding a nice bitterness and an herbal quality to the whiskey , but it's also adding sweetness . So whiskey and vermouth on its own is a little bit out of balance . Add bitters and the bitters then balance the sweetness of the vermouth while adding those complementary flavors to the whiskey . So think of it like heating , think of it like liquid seasoning . It's basically the same thing as salt and pepper . You are adding it to balance flavors and bring elements of the drink together and to flavor it in a very light way with whatever flavor of bitters you're using , in the same way that a pinch of salt isn't going to overwhelm your dish . It's not going to make your dish taste salty , it's just going to make the dish taste better .

Speaker 2 33:55

Bitters are the same thing . A couple of dashes are not going to overwhelm your drink , they're probably just going to make it taste better . You can use them in virtually anything . There's obviously lots of cocktails that call for bitters , but they can be added to ginger ale , tonic , soda water . They can be added to beer . They can be added to coffee . I was drinking our chocolate bitters this morning in coffee and it was fantastic . Our lavender bitters go really nicely in tea , like chamomile tea especially , so you can add it to virtually anything .

Speaker 2 34:26

One of the more surprising uses that we found was wine , non-alcoholic red wine in particular , which , as most of us know , is a little bit lacking . There are plenty of good examples of non-alcoholic red wine . We drink red with non-alcoholic red wine all the time , but it does hit in the same way that alcoholic wine does . It's impossible . You're removing 15% alcohol . The alcohol is a huge driver of flavor , of body , of complexity in wine . When you remove that , you're removing a lot from the wine .

Speaker 2 34:58

There are some examples that are great on their own , but a few dashes of our bitters really helped amplify the flavor and to pull out some of the flavors that are in there that are maybe a little bit muted or fighting . It helps to add additional flavor . So , again , like our aromatic bitters , they're going to add cinnamon , clove , nutmeg . Those flavors make sense in red wine . Those are flavors that you're going to find in red wine anyway .

Speaker 2 35:22

And our aromatic bitters in particular , which are the most aggressive , they're the most bitter , the most earthy of our lineup . They really helped to cut sweetness in red wine , which is a big complaint with a lot of these wines is that they taste like grape juice , because they are , but they're often a little bit sweet . Our aromatic bitters help to balance that sweetness While at the same time adding bodies , because our bitters are glycerin based , which I mentioned earlier , is very against this . It's very thick , unlike traditional alcoholic bitters which are more and more the consistency of water going heavy with our bidders in a glass of red wine , like typically , I'd recommend starting with anywhere from like one to three dashes in a glass . But if you were to use more , like seven or eight dashes , like , let's call it , like a quarter of an ounce , you know , measure into a jigger and everything you know , quarter ounce and add that to a glass of red wine . It adds a significant amount of weight and mouthfeel to the wine , which is pretty cool .

Speaker 1 36:26

That's interesting . So I like that because I have . I must admit , even though I have a hospitality background , I've never thought of using bidders in either sort of coffees and teas . I've got my lemon and ginger tea right beside me now and I'm thinking oh , maybe I could , you know , add a bit of the orange bitters in there . That might work with you out .

Speaker 2 36:44

That'd be great in there .

Speaker 1 36:45

Amazing . And then with the wine as well , because it was something that I was going to circle back to , obviously with your background as a sommelier who's tasted and experienced a whole world of wines , you know , and the challenges that we have in this industry with low and low wines is very well documented , but by everyone . So , hearing that there is something that could actually help to work with that and to add back in a bit of what people miss , which I think you know , is that bite , doesn't it that you get ? You know , that tannic feeling and that mouthfeel that you get , which , particularly with red wine , seems to be so hard to reproduce , not so much with the whites and the sparklings , because I'm guessing there's things like the sugar in that , but particularly with the red wines .

Speaker 2 37:34

was that just something you were just experimenting , or you know , I don't even think that was our idea . I think that somebody started doing that . I had no idea who it was . Somebody started doing that and shared it and we tried it and were like , wow , yeah , this really works really well and it kind of caught on organically . It's one of those things that people just started sharing and I would say that's probably . This is a gap I'm making this number up but that probably drives like 30% of our business , maybe 20% . It drives a significant amount of our sales .

Speaker 2 38:08

They go into the wine and , yeah , you're right , Sparkling wines tend to work much better because they're carbonated , because you get mouthfeel from the bubbles . White wines and sparkling wines are higher acid . They're crisp . You're drinking them cold . Coldness helps . Why do we drink white wines cold ? And maybe we drink some beer . That's not very good . We drink it way too cold , at least here . There's a whole campaign for extra cold beer as a marketing term . They're like I'll drink this beer extra cold . It's great . No , you're drinking it extra cold because it's not good and when you chill something down , it's mute the flavor . You don't taste it as much . So white and sparkling wine have a few advantages . You're drinking it cold . It's high acid and sparkling wine is bubbly . Red wine you're drinking closer to room temperature , maybe a little colder than standard room temperature . There's nothing quicker high behind . It's not as high acid , there's no bubbles , it's very naked and so , yeah , the bitters do help to add some of that bite to it .

Speaker 2 39:19

Bitterness is a great example of one of those flavors that help slow you down when you're drinking . The reason why so many of these spirits add capitation chili extract is because that burn in your throat , reminds you of alcohol . It slows you down . Ginger does the same thing . Ginger beer is a great non-option . Tonic is another example Ginger beer that ginger slows you down . You can't scud it because ginger is so spicy . Tonic is similar . Tonic is super bitter . You're not going to chug it because it has that bitterness that slows you down . So adding you know going heavy on it again adding a couple of natural the bidders isn't going to make the drink a bitter , but going heavy on it is going to add an element of bitterness to it . It's gonna help slow you down and it's gonna make the wine feel more adult , you're gonna feel like an adult .

Speaker 1 40:12

Okay , those are some great tips . Thank you . There's some good things to think about there , which you know , in an area that people really struggle with and something that they miss quite a lot , it's good to understand a bit more about the reasons why and what we can do to help those drinks . So before I let you go too soon , I wanted to just quickly take you through each of the bitters and see if you could

Exploring the range

Speaker 1 40:32

tell me well , not if you can , obviously you can what you , what drinks you think they work best with , because I've got some here and I will put some pictures I'm not sure how well people will be able to see here . So here we've got the New Orleans bitters . Can you tell us a little bit about this one and and what sort of drinks you think it works best with ?

Speaker 2 40:52

Yeah , the New Orleans . The flavor profile is tart , cherry , anise , high biscuit and rosehip primarily , along with a number of warm spices and a ton of other ingredients . But that's that's the primary profile . It's used classically in a tazerak . That's what they showed is the inspiration patient bidders . The tazerak is kind of the classic cocktail which is a little harder to reproduce in not-alcoholic form . But if you're making alcoholic cocktails at home it's , as a record , great . You can absolutely make it tazerak without alcohol .

Speaker 2 41:23

Liars makes a non-alcoholic absence . Derek Brown actually posted a recipe recently using three spirit nightcap , our New Orleans bitters and Liars absent . I called a nightcap Iraq . That sounds really good . Three spirit nightcap . It's one of my absolute favorite Spirit on the market . So that drink sounds amazing . That's what I would use that in . It's also great in non-alcoholic red wine . So for the same reasons the aromatic bitters work . The New Orleans works slightly differently to add Very red wine like flavors tart , cherry , I bisque , if anis , those are very like . You know . You know our type of flavors and it works the same way in that .

Speaker 1 42:06

Okay , all right , and I'm gonna find that nightcap Iraq and check out that recipe and I'll link to it for everyone below . So this is the lavender . So which drinks would you recommend work best with the lavender ?

Speaker 2 42:20

Lavender I would use in anything with gin if you're drinking anything with vodka . But any gin based cocktails like a French 75 or a bee's knees Just in some in plain tonic is great . It'll work in sparkling wine or white wine . I'm a tea family LP on its own in soda water with a squeeze of lemon is how we drink most of it . We go through at least a bottle a week of our lavender bitters just by mixing it in sparkling water with lemon .

Speaker 1 42:50

Lovely , and I love a French 75 . So that's one another one for me . I'm getting loads of drinks here that I can add to my list to try . That's amazing . So you mentioned this one a couple times , so this is your aromatic , which was the first one that you made . Is that right ?

Speaker 2 43:03

Yeah , that's kind of the standard bitter , like if you see a talk , if you see a recipe that just calls for bitters and doesn't specify what , that's what you would use . That's what you're gonna use in an old-fashioned , in a Manhattan , in Thousands of recipes , any recipe that calls for bitters unless it says specifically orange , pay , show , chocolate , etc . That's what you're gonna use . Wine , again ginger ale . Ginger beer . Tonic is really nice . Again , still coffee and tea , red wine and soda water . All of these in soda are amazing by themselves , with a little squeeze of citrus , but any of these in soda water is how we drink them most of the time right now .

Speaker 1 43:49

And so your aromatic , that's your go-to guy then , so that's like your number one guy . Yeah , yes , friend , yeah , and then the orange bitters as well . So what , what drinks would we say would be work best with this one ? I've got some ideas in mind , but yeah .

Speaker 2 44:03

So a lot of the same drinks that you would use the aromatic in . Actually , our orange bitters are very heavily spiced , so there's a ton of orange peel but we use cardamom , coriander , lemon balm , and then we we also still use a lot of the same warm spices . So there's a bit of anise in there , there's some cinnamon , there's some all spice in there as well , some cloves . So it'll work well in things like an old-fashioned or a Manhattan . It'll work well in conjunction with the aromatic bitters in those drinks .

Speaker 2 44:32

I really like it in a margarita in place of triple sec . So I like to make a margarita with a gavi nectar , tequila , our orange bitters , limes and a little bit of salt , and the orange bitters essentially take the place of triple sec , where you're adding not as heavy an orange flavor Because you're using , you know , half an ounce or three quarters an ounce of triple sec . You're not using nearly as much , so it's more subtle , but you're adding that dimension of orange to it and then cardamom and coriander go really nicely with tequila and a margarita flavor profile anyway , without adding any additional sugar . You're not adding the sweetness of triple sec and and especially important in a non-alcoholic drink You're not diluting it with triple sec You're , you're really getting the full , intense experience of the margarita with just kind of a nice with the citrus . There again bitter soda and sparkling wine and white wine .

Speaker 1 45:26

Fantastic a margarita . That's another one of my jabs . I I could sit and drink margaritas all day long , so definitely one that I want to try out . That is amazing . Thank you for taking us through that in , because I think you know it's nice for people to have some practical Ideas of what they can do to go and try it . So , speaking of of trying it , where can people find your bitters , both stateside and in the UK ?

Speaker 2 45:53

In the UK , club soda is the place to go . Right now . We are working on wider distribution . I would like to be available in some more places for people to have a shift or go find it in person , and we're working on , you know , a wider footprint for bars and restaurants in the UK . But for now club soda is the place to go . And then in the states our website is all the bittercom and you can order . We ship direct across the country , as well as almost all of the non-alcoholic bottle shop the places like what's on and zero proof . You can find us in most of the non-alcoholic stories .

Speaker 1 46:33

Excellent , excellent . And if people want to just get in touch , if they want to find out more about you , where would you like them to find you ?

Speaker 2 46:40

Instagram is great if they want to follow us on Instagram . We are at all the bitter . If you message us there , it goes directly to me . We are a very small business . We don't have a social media agency . We do everything ourselves . So if you reach out on on any , any platform , any , any faith it'll , it'll come directly .

Speaker 1 47:00

That you are all hands-on deck . Right , you're in there , you're , you're mixing and mashing and making it happen .

Speaker 2 47:06

Yeah , in those tanks back there .

Speaker 1 47:10

Fantastic in . Thank you so much for spending some time with me today and for explaining so well To the loner drinkers out there what the bitters are and what you can use them for . I think it can really open up a world for people Of new flavor experiences . And , let's face it , sometimes when you're just starting off drinking low , no drinks , it can be a bit boring if you don't know what you're doing . So it's nice to have you know like a little selection like this . I know you do bigger bottles as well , but to have this on your home bar to be able to go right , I can just mix things up a little bit . I don't have to create some great big concoction . I can just take something that I normally like and give it a bit of a juge , as my mother likes .

Speaker 2 47:50

Exactly right , literally . Think of it like seasoning . You can add it to anything you're drinking and it's a sure play around , see what you enjoy .

Speaker 1 47:57

Excellent , excellent . I like that play around and then let you know what people have found out as well , because , just like the wines , you never know what we might come across Exactly . That's amazing . Thank you so much for your time . I will make sure that all of the links to your socials and your website and where people can get your bitters , both here and In the states , are all linked to the show notes below .

Speaker 2 48:18

Thank you so much Thanks for having me .