Exploring Feragaia & inspiring confidence

Speaker 1 1:12

Okay , hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Low no Drinker podcast . Today I am talking to the wonderful Jamie Wilde from Ferragaya , which is the original free spirit distilled in Fife in Scotland , and it is an amazing liquid , but Jamie is the man who is here to tell you all about it , so we'll jump straight in . Hey , jamie , how are you doing ?

Speaker 2 1:39

Hi Denise , I'm doing well and I'm delighted to be here speaking to you about Ferragaya .

Speaker 1 1:45

Thank you . Thank you , so good to have you . So I want to get straight into it . Jamie , tell us what is Ferragaya , because it's not quite like anything else , is it ?

Speaker 2 2:00

because it's not quite like anything else , is it ? No , it's not . It's uh . We call ourselves a free spirit , and that's a really important thing for us , because you see a lot of alcohol free products or alternatives to alcohol that are very reliant on alcohol . So it's like an alcohol free version of something that's alcoholic , or it tastes like alcohol or it contains alcohol . There's actually few products that can really confidently stand on their own two feet and say that they don't rely on alcohol to exist , and Ferragai is all about inspiring confidence in alternatives to alcohol so that we can , as consumers and as drinkers , move away from the reliance that I think our culture and society has on alcohol . So the free spirit element of it really is a statement of confidence that we hope others will pick up on and they'll find their own confidence to be able to order a drink that they want to have rather than a drink they feel that they should have .

Speaker 1 2:59

I love that . I love that because I think there is a large element of confidence in this movement that we're seeing now . And I remember when I started drinking less , one of my concerns was will my friends get it ? You know , will they think I'm boring ? Now , know , is it ? Am I not as cool because I'm not going to go and get as drunk every night ? Um , but then I found that when I started mentioning it to people , so many people said to me oh , actually , I feel the same way , actually . Oh , I don't really want to drink that much . Oh , I'm not enjoying it . Oh , I wish there was something else I can have . So I think it's great that we have products like yours that are helping people to recognize that this is . It's perfectly okay to live this way , and you can still have amazing drinks whilst you're doing .

Speaker 2 3:42

Yeah , no , and I thought I see some really interesting responses to when I get up and I introduce ferragaya why it exists and what it is , and the initial jokey response to the idea of Ferragara is just like , oh , you know , it's not alcohol , I like drinking . And there's an easy sort of throwaway line of like , oh , what's the point ? Or you know all sorts of different things which are really sort of aiming at chipping away at this idea of what alcohol free is . But almost anyone that I speak to and I think the thing that I've noticed is that as soon as you tell your own story and your own relationship with alcohol , you make yourself quite vulnerable , and as soon as you allow yourself to be vulnerable in front of people , people very quickly start becoming a bit more vulnerable and open with you , and so those jokes about alcohol suddenly turn into , uh , you know , I've actually I don't often say this or um , you know I there's , there's relationships with people in my life that I don't feel are particularly positive , or , and suddenly all of this information comes out around drinking and drinking alcohol , and we all have people in our lives or habits in our lives that I think , if we really put the the focus and the magnifying glass on it , then you know we do ask that question , like you know why , why are we doing that ?

Speaker 2 5:12

And uh , and sometimes I think it's sort of a bit of group therapy of you know , someone tells their story and there's all sorts of other stories that need to be told , but it's all about , as I said , confidence , but then allowing people to make the choice that they feel is right for them and to turn up as themselves , and I think that that's a really important message today .

How it's made

Speaker 1 5:36

Absolutely and very well said . So talk to me about the drink itself , in terms of the production process and what goes into it . I absolutely love I've got a bottle here on my shelf so I'll hold that up for everyone and we will put up some other images so people can see it really clearly . Um , I love that the bottle comes with a little bit of advice and some help on how to drink it , um , how to enjoy it . Um , there's loads of information on here . But in terms of the actual production process , I understand you use 14 different botanicals to make this . Yes , get to to that point , because that must have been a lot of um , fun , experimentation and trial and error on the way yeah , no , especially as we're not trying to be like a gin or whiskey , tequila or rum .

Speaker 2 6:30

I think there are different characteristics that come from different botanicals that could be linked to any of those alcoholic spirits , and so I mean , in a way , it's quite liberating creating something that doesn't really exist , um , but it also it's also very scary as well , because I think people find comfort in things that they know and they find comfort in referencing things that they know , and everyone wants to reference an alcoholic spirit when they're talking about Ferragaya , but really they can do that and they will do that , and there are similarities . However , ferragaya , as I've already said , as a free spirit , is meant to be so much more than that , than that , and so the way in which we look at the flavor of ferrugia and the reason behind the taste is all this sort of question that we had about what makes a drink a drink . I think still today , someone says we're going for a drink , it's almost always alcoholic , and I think the reason why it's always alcoholic , you know , there's the cultural bit in there , but I think there's also the actual drink itself , and alcoholic drinks tend to be more interesting , more complex , more sophisticated , more premium than the alternatives . And so , from a taste point of view , what are the things that are really making people feel that that is a drink , that they can have in these moments that are important to them , like the end of the working day or moments with friends or family , that , um , that you know , these , these bits , the bits of our time and our routine , are that are important enough to have a drink ? And the point that we came to was that all of the great alcoholic drinks , I think , have an element of challenge and an element of complexity .

Speaker 2 8:26

If you think about negroni with great sort of bitterness , or mezcal with , like a smokiness , uh , you , you look at the popular cocktails and you can see that there is more at play than what typically the alcohol-free drink provides . And so the 14 land and sea botanicals that we chose have all been reviewed over and over again against all sorts of other botanicals and then combined in order to give layers of character and complexity that challenge the palate just enough so you can slow down , take your time , then really have that same experience as you do when you're having a great alcoholic cocktail and you know it doesn't take long to realize how little you , you know you need . You need alcohol really . Once you sort of flex the muscle , once you go out , as you know , and spend time with friends and you go through all of those typical alcoholic occasions not drinking , then you really start to see , actually there's quite a thin veneer that we all have and that veneer is sort of the relationship we have with alcohol . That can be quite easily broken down .

Speaker 1 10:15

I think it's interesting when we think about the flavour profiles of the drinks that we have now in a low-no environment versus the full strength drinks as you were mentioning . You know , comparing that , those layers of complexity and depth um , I used to drink quite strong drinks . My go-to cocktail was an old-fashioned and you know , that's that's , that's , that's just alcohol in a glass , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 10:40

yeah exactly yeah , and you'd have these drinks and you'd think , oh yeah , there's there's depth there , there's layers of flavor , there's complexity . But it's interesting that now , um , several months on from not having had an alcoholic drink , I can't taste in those drinks anything but alcohol , whereas in the alcohol free range that is starting to emerge now , there are so many different flavor profiles that are starting to come together .

Speaker 2 11:09

I think there are so many producers out there , yourself included , who are really experimenting with a lot of different combinations of

The Future of Alcohol-Free Drinks

Speaker 2 11:16

flavors and marrying methods and techniques to actually bring about something that really does taste adult but just doesn't have those consequences no , exactly , and that's that's really what we're working towards is like a drink doesn't just need to be an alcoholic drink , but yeah , those , uh , those flavors that we are very familiar with tend to be either reliant on the fact that there's alcohol in them or they're reliant on the fact that there's sugar in them as well . And to add to the challenge that Ferragaya represents when going up against other drinks is Ferragaya has 0.0% ABV . No alcohol at all never touches it completely unreliant on it . It also has no sugar in it at all , which these are two big pillars of flavour and structure and what we know around drinking , and so when you remove those , you actually have a completely different experience of drinking , because the things that your palate is expecting to experience , they don't come , and so what they do but does happen is is that the drinking experience and the flavors come in a different way , and all of that , I think , is a really important step in terms of like . Actually , there's a , there's a whole experience to be had with , you know , with ferragi , and with and some of the other great alcohol-free products . Um , there is really just it's it's deserving um of credit and it's deserving of respect , and it's deserving of confidence , and the more people that find that confidence in that , I think , the more the the playing field between alcohol and alcohol free will be balanced , and I think I get .

Speaker 2 13:08

One of the things that I always say is that I'm not going to stand or I'm not going to make you feel bad about drinking alcohol . I'm not going to tell you why alcohol is bad . I don't think that that's our job , and I also know that telling anyone to do anything is a crap idea just doesn't work . What our job is , and what I see our job and ferragaya's job is , is to create a really confident and premium and sophisticated alternative that can actually , as I've already said before , stand on its own two feet , exist without the reliance of alcohol for flavor and for having alcohol in it , and actually just allow someone to make a choice for themselves , but make an even choice rather than that .

Speaker 2 13:56

Here's a sugary , really basic , simple , alcohol-free drink and here's a beautifully crafted cocktail that has three different spirits in that will have hundreds of years of history and incredible techniques and stories behind them , and it's obvious why it's so hard to to not drink alcohol and uh , and I just I'm humans have been doing this for a very long time and I don't think , you know , alcohol is going to go away at all . But I just I think it's amazing how much of a grip alcohol has on all of these moments in our lives and certainly in the culture that I know , which I think is probably a similar culture across most of Europe and other parts of the world as well , certainly in America as well other parts- of the world as well , certainly in America as well .

Speaker 1 14:50

Yeah , I think you're very right in that we have been doing this for hundreds and hundreds of years . Alcohol has been part of the way that people socialise and bond and build communities , rightly or wrongly , since as far back as people can remember and obviously beyond . There is a change coming . There is a culture shift that is happening and I wonder how that is progressing in different areas , because I think that so many people now are aware of the dangers of alcohol of their mental health . And you're right , I very much in the magazine , don't ever tell people not to drink .

Speaker 1 15:33

I never tell people they have a problem . It's not my place , it doesn't work . I don't believe in scaring people with stats about illness and so forth . I think we all know this right . We know this and we make a choice for whatever reason , but things are shifting , some places shifting faster than others . I wonder how you found it being in Scotland having a non-alcoholic

Scotland's reception to Feragaia

Speaker 1 16:00

beverage in a place that's had a traditionally troubled relationship with alcohol across so many parts of the country . How are you finding that change in people's reception to what you're doing over there ?

Speaker 2 16:18

yeah , that's a really interesting point and I've always liked the contrast of Scotland's alcohol-free spirit or Scotland's first 0.0% ABV distilleries . It doesn't seem to make sense when you say it , because so much of this traditional like idea of what Scotland represents and today is , you know , it's Burns Night today and so there's no , there's no um greater day . That sort of illustrates the those typical images and icons of Scotland which you know might be Great Highlands , kilts , whiskey , haggis , and in all of these , you know , and everything sort of coming together and everything that that represents and a lot of that heritage is , you know , it's incredible and I love history and I love , I love understanding you know how , where we all come from and the stories of old and what we can learn and understand from that . But I think that we're entering this sort of era of real truth and authenticity and more people , you know , if they are going to buy products or they're going to have products or services , they want to know who's behind them , where it's made , what goes into it . Are there any purposeful endeavors of the business , um , alongside what it does from a commercial point of view , like , and that ties into our B Corp certification , and what we do and um , and how we see our local community and fight for what we make and distil Ferugae and I think a lot of people realise people who haven't maybe been to Scotland or spent much time there will still look at it as that sort of image and that scene that I sort of painted when I started talking about this question .

Speaker 2 18:25

But I think what really represents Scotland now is that there is a huge amount of innovation and there's a huge amount of opportunity around this nation that has incredible outdoors that really sort of define it and great wild spaces . And you know there's there's talk of yeah , I think that the connection that the scots have with the outdoors and the history and of of that is a really powerful emblem of the direction in which scotland is moving . And you know there's incredible wildlife restoration projects going on . Um , there's a great movement to wanting to like spend more time in the outdoors and understanding that sort of connectivity . And so the reason why I'm saying this is that with Ferragaya Ferragaya means wild earth and it's all about the reconnection to us wild places and the feelings that you , the feeling of grounding that you get when you're in these beautiful spaces . And for us it's Scotland , but for anyone else it can be any wild earth , can mean any like , mean a park , it can mean a desert , a place in the sea , whatever it's , but it's it gives you that same sense of grounding . And so we combine this sort of idea of Ferragaya Wild Earth with this sort of contemporary idea of what Scotland really is . It sort of encapsulates in a small way the innovation and the contemporary thinking of a lot of people in Scotland , and so the combination of those two elements that make up Ferragai really makes it into a positive and an interesting product .

Speaker 2 20:13

And response has changed a lot in the last five years since we started it . And but I would always say , even from the beginning and we launched it in Glasgow , which is known for sort of a relationship with alcohol the response that we had even then was , I mean , yes , there was quite a lot of laughter at the whole idea of it , but there was still quite a lot of curiosity around what is this ? And this is from Scotland , and so Scotland is our home and it's where the majority of Ferugaira is drunk . We've got fantastic partners in hospitality and retail across Scotland and we look forward to doing so much more in Scotland because it is a great place and it's a very welcoming place and I think the fact that Ferragao exists for what it represents , I think , speaks to that openness and that curiosity that Scotland has .

Speaker 1 21:17

Absolutely , and I think that in a place that has had a troubled relationship with

Hospitality inclusivity

Speaker 1 21:23

alcohol , there is so much space , isn't there ? There's so much room to introduce this to people as an option and as a choice that they can make as and when , because I think that's part of the issue , isn't it ? It's just knowing that you have choices and options . I come from a hospitality background , 24 years working in bars and restaurants , and there was either either never any alcohol or low alcohol sorry , alcohol free or low alcohol options , or there was one , maybe that you know very much about , and I've often thought , you know , if there were more choices , if there were more options , if these were presented to me as just an option that didn't need justification or explanation , then perhaps there would have been more opportunity , more times when I would have taken advantage of that .

Speaker 2 22:13

So having it available in a space where people need those options actually produces so much more possibility for them yeah , and hospitality is all about bringing people together and these shared moments that we all look forward to and this the inclusivity of being able to offer great alternatives to alcohol alongside alcoholic drinks just means that more and more people are being seen and heard and supported , which I think can only enhance these shared moments that we have and also enhance the experience that people are having . Uh , certainly in hospitality , because it just makes it . It makes it easy and it removes and it removes a lot of stigma , and I really see that the partners , the places that confidently adopt no and low drinks , that confidence is really repaid in the confidence that it gives a consumer , someone who's coming in to eat . That confidence then translates to them and then they're actually like well , yeah , I , I don't really feel like an alcoholic drink , to be honest . Um , that you know there's a fantastic alternative on that list and I haven't tried many alternatives .

Speaker 2 23:38

So let's , let's give that a go , and I and I mean there's two parts of that . There's one is the confidence , allowing people to drink a drink that they actually want , without alcohol , but then they're all . You're also giving them the opportunity to explore and experience something that they haven't had before , because everyone has an idea of what an alcohol-free drink is and , generally speaking , it's not the most positive idea of like it's's , it's probably not going to be as good , it's probably sugary , it's probably like all sorts of different things . And when you can actually deliver that new realization of like , wow , you can , probably , I can , I can , I could drink this more and I could really reevaluate my relationship and my routine with alcohol so that you know the control is back in that individual's hands , um , and they , and then they can be authentic and and really exist without that stigma of you know , why aren't you drinking ? Is it because you don't like me ? Is it because you don't want to invest the time in this moment ? And all of those reasons that we're all so familiar with .

Speaker 1 24:51

You mentioned a couple of times there being a B Corp and , obviously , the relationship with the landscape

Building a B Corp Certified Business

Speaker 1 24:58

around you there . Can you tell me a bit more about what being a b corp means to you and how that's incorporated in what you do at ferragaya ?

Speaker 2 25:07

yeah , well , I think that any business now that has a chance of succeeding over the long term has to have a real purpose , like in its DNA , and if there might be , there's such a range of , as we know , challenges that humans face , um , and I think that business can be and the capitalist system that we all exist in that is so powerful Um , there is a great opportunity , I think , to initiate really positive change by collectively bringing consumers into this idea of what a purposeful business is , but then also proving the fact that actually businesses can be profitable and can succeed whilst adopting positive , positive sort of initiatives and positive missions around solving some of the issues that you know that we face . And b corp is it's a great um accreditation and companies like Patagonia that were real sort of pioneers of the B Corp movement a massive , like huge inspirations to me as a founder of a business . But I think what B Corp really represents is , you know , an element of this purpose-led idea that we have with Ferragaya and what it does is it really gives the confidence to the consumer that we have been accredited , we have been reviewed and we've got that stamp , which means that we mean what we're talking about and that we can be trusted , and so that B Corp stamp is really vital for that . But it's by no means like the whole story of like that's because we got the stamp . You know we're finished in terms of what we want to do from a purposeful point of view . I mean , as I've said , faragai translates to wild earth . We want to restore and bring back some of earth's wild places and really enable people to connect more with with nature , because I think that's nature holds so many of the secrets , um , and so many of the answers that you know we run around every day worrying about , and I think that sort of Mother Earth , that connection , is just a very helpful remedy in the sort of fast paced , competitive world that we live in today . So the brand is all sort of around allowing people to have that moment of connection .

Speaker 2 28:08

We've got the B Corp certification , which is actually when we started FerroGuy five years ago . We used the structure on the B Corp assessment to build the business and it was just a very helpful guide because you know I hadn't built a business before . Very helpful guide because you know I hadn't built a business before and , knowing my , my areas of real understanding were more of the marketing and sales side of things . But then when you look at the operational elements and you look at the financial elements , um and the hr elements , there's all sorts of things that I wasn't aware of that I became aware of through understanding that assessment , um , and so that was a really helpful framework to build the business of off . But once you get the accreditation , you get a score and that score is reassessed , um , except after certain periods of time have passed , and so our goal is to obviously increase our score and work more and more towards the mission of the brand that we have in terms of reconnecting people to Wild Earth so they feel that grounding , presence and they can really step into their own shoes and go forward into the world and have authentic and meaningful experiences .

Speaker 2 29:25

So you know , we do a number of different partnerships with some great organizations , uh in scotland at the moment , and we really want to do more and more . I think we're limited a little bit by the size of the business and it's . You know we're a small team . There's tons of opportunity out there and there's a lot of potholes expensive potholes that we can fall into um , and so in this sort of phase of um growth and of establishing ourselves . It's you know we're doing all that we can , uh , but you know there's obviously the the real need of making sure that the business is safe for the future and we can continue to sort of fulfil our primary objective , which is bringing confidence to people to seek alternatives to alcohol alternatives to alcohol excellent , um well , let's get some more people aware of just how wonderful the drink is

Enjoying Feragaia

Speaker 2 30:29

.

Speaker 1 30:29

How do you recommend ferragaya is best enjoyed ?

Speaker 2 30:33

well , I mean , that's that , that is . That is a big question and it's uh I I think it's a really versatile product and so , you know , I've seen it used in all sorts of wonderful and weird ways , um , whether it's sort of a more tequila based , sort of paloma margarita picante , or it's uh , sort of closer to a whiskey , sour , um , or it might be like a , a mule , um , or even just a simple gin and tonic . So , but I think the thing I I always say that a great gateway drink with ferrigar is leaning into the , the spiced gingery notes , because ferrigar has 14 anti-botanicals top notes , all citrusy and herbaceous . You have a complexity that comes from sugar kelp in the body and then you have this depth which really sits as the foundation of taste in the drink , where we've got some organic ginger , pink peppercorn , cayenne pepper and anchovy chili , and that sort of gives the length and the complexity to a drink , and so mixing it with the ginger ale , the ginger beer , just makes it like it . That's a very easy way , I think , to understand that um , the the depth and the complexity of of ferragaya , um , I really like um .

Speaker 2 31:53

I think my favorite cocktail at the moment is , which recently made a sort of take on a picante , which is ferragaya . A little bit of pineapple juice that we infuse in some jalapenos , a touch of lime , and then what is it ? And then you , yeah , and that's , and some Mugabe syrup sorry , just to complete that and that's just a really delicious , complex drink . That's sort of perfect this time of year . Also , the penicillin , which is , uh , ferrugia , some honey , honey syrup , a little bit of lemon juice , uh , topped up with ginger ale , and if you're , you know , if you're really smart about it .

Speaker 2 32:36

Then you get a bit of candy ginger and use that as a garnish , which is the most delicious stuff , um , but lethal and that sort of eliminates the point of avoiding the sugar with ferrugia . So , yeah , tread tread carefully with that one um , but the penicillin cocktail is fantastic , but also , yeah , so I think , as a simple , a simple option , ferrugia , ginger ale , the slice of lime is uh , is a great way just to sort of dip your toe in . And then I would sort of get creative and explore and look at some of your favorite drinks and see what you can do um with uh , with Ferragai , and we've got some great uh cocktail um recipes on our website , whether it's sort of Negronis there's some old fashions there , um or touching on , you know , the spicy margaritas or palomas etc . That you might um , that you might want to look at excellent , excellent .

Speaker 1 33:27

Um , there are . You've listed a lot of things that I definitely want to go and try . That pineapple infused with jalapeno oh that sounds yeah , yeah , it's , it's really good .

Speaker 2 33:37

It's really good . That one .

Speaker 1 33:38

It's only a recent discovery as well I , I tried it with the , with the ginger ale , and I just I loved the length of the finish of it . You know , because a a lot of times , some of these drinks that people are working really hard to to achieve , they they don't often have that , that , that body and that depth for the .

Speaker 2 33:57

Yeah we say . We say a wild and refreshing depth of flavor . And I think if you try a Ferragam ginger ale against just ginger ale it , you see how much Ferragam brings to that drink . And I think that the botanicals do beautifully , uh , blend with um , with the ginger ale , um flavours . But you're right , it gives a dryness , it gives a depth and a length that you want to sip and take your time over and it slows you down . So you take your time and that sort of sense of , and that gives you really that sense of having a drink , but then you haven't had the sugar , you haven't had the alcohol , but then you've had that moment of connection to those around you and yourself .

Speaker 1 34:41

Excellent . I am going to ask you about that website . You said we can go and find um some recipes . What's the

Create & connect

Speaker 1 34:48

best place for people to find you if they want to go and find out more about what farragai is doing and to get themselves a bottle ?

Speaker 2 34:55

yes , well , our website is a great place to to start farragaicom . There's a load of drinks suggestions there . You can buy bundles that you can um , I think you can make a number of different drinks with , uh , with everything that arrives in the bundle , but even has garnishes in there as well . So we're making it really easy that way . Um , but if you do get a bottle , use reference , reference the website , reference our instagram . I think instagram there's more on the events and the partnerships and the places of where you can go and drink ferragaya . So that's a great follow , if I say so myself , and it's just sorry , instagram yes , at ferragaya yeah , at ferragaya , which is f-e-r-a-g-a-i-a .

Speaker 2 35:45

Uh , we also have a stockist map on our website . So if you want to find it in a retailer or you want to find it , um , at a great bar , restaurant , hotel , nightclub , etc . Then , um , that's , that's a good , good first step . But if not any other questions , just email us and we'd love to help out and hear , and also hear if you've made any weird and wonderful creations yourself that we should know about .

Speaker 1 36:10

Excellent , excellent . I'll put all of that in the show notes for you so that people know where to find you . Jamie , thank you so much for talking to me today . It's been really interesting , really eye opening , getting to know more about one of my new favourite liquids , so I really appreciate you spending the time . Thanks so much .

Speaker 2 36:28

Thank you , Denise , for having me on .