Introduction

Speaker 1 1:12

Hey , hey , low no Nation , and welcome to this week's conversation . Today I am speaking with Hamish Renton . Hamish is the MD of HRA Global , the food and drink experts . Now , usually on this podcast , I do speak to Low no brand founders about their stories and their inspirations that led them to create the liquids that help us all live a life less intoxicated .

Speaker 1 1:34

But today we're taking a slightly different approach and I want to ask if you've heard of something called GLP-1 agonists ? No , me neither , at least not until they are referred to by their more common names , as you may know them , as the fat jabs . Now you might wonder what fat jabs have got to do with drinking no and no , and I thought the same , but when Hamish's team reached out , I became instantly fascinated by how these drugs that are endorsed by a lot of the popular celebs in our culture today are going to have a major impact on drinking low and no . Now , I am most definitely not an expert in this field at all , so I I'm inviting you , lono Nation , to come along and learn with me today . So I'm going to hand over to Mr Hamish Renton and ask him to say hello and tell us a little bit about his background and then explain to us exactly how these drugs are going to impact the drinks that we know and love . So hello , hamish , welcome . Thanks for joining me .

Speaker 2 2:34

Hi , denise , and thank you very much for inviting me on Really enjoying this debate that we're having around low and no , around GLP-1 and some of the directions we're going . So , yeah , looking forward to unpacking it for you .

Who is Hamish & what do HRA-Global do?

Speaker 1 2:47

Fantastic . Thank you very much . So , before we get into all of those bits , could I ask you just to tell us a little bit about yourself , about your background and what it is that HRA Global do , so that our listeners can get a bit of context ?

Speaker 2 3:00

Yeah , perfect . Well , great question . So I've had a sort of mixed background across retail . I work for a number of big supermarkets in senior positions and for a number of manufacturers in food and drinking in board level and senior roles , so I've sort of seen the industry from both sides . And then 13 and a half years ago I set up my own business in a spare bedroom and we've become one of Europe's leading management consultancies in the food and drink space , I'm pleased to say . So we are a team of folk with specialists in different areas and we really span the full remit of food and drink . So , whether it's functional beverages , alcoholic beverages , adaptogens , foods , you know , kind of classic agriculture , sort of poultry , meat , fish , dairy , all the way through to ready meals , confectionery , snacks . So we rove across that space and we work with both brands and companies on complicated problems where they need a bit of outside help , a bit of strategy , a bit of commercial analysis to make things happen .

Speaker 1 4:02

OK , excellent . So you really are running the gamut really of a lot of the things that we talk about a lot on this podcast the functional beverages and adaptogens and nootropics of um buzz around new fads and new terminology and and new technology that's coming into what is still a relatively emerging market when it comes to low and no beverage drinks . So it's interesting that there's already things that are happening that are making perhaps encouraging great pivots to be taking place yeah , pivots a great word , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 4:35

Because I think Lo and Lo is in the Wild West phase of its growth in terms of there's very few accepted sort of definitions and norms . Lots of brands are having a crack at differentiating on a number of different aspects and avenues of differentiation and it's a big fight for space , fight for share of throats , fight for bandwidth of brand as well . So you're in that melee when a category gets going and it's the most fun place to be and the most fun to observe and try and read the tea leaves to see what's going on here .

Speaker 1 5:12

It is . It's really exciting . As I mentioned before , we pressed record . I've been this week at the World Alcohol Free Awards , at the Free From Drink Awards , and there's just masses and masses of liquids coming out for the judges to try . So there is so much going on . Some of it is amazing and , unlike in any industry , some of it still needs a bit of work and a bit of tweaking . So , in terms

HRA-Global & Low/No

Speaker 1 5:49

of yourself and your involvement in the low-no industry , where has that sort of stemmed from for you ? I know that it's under your umbrella , but at what point did you , as a company , recognize that this was something that you needed to be part of or at the forefront of ?

Speaker 2 6:09

sure , great question . So we've been working in free from . I've been working in free from for 20 years . So I I was lucky enough to um launch the free from range into tesco in 2003 , 2004 , and working with a bunch of manufacturers to create , if you like , gluten-free , wheat-free , dairy-free analogs of conventional products . And , of course , that free from definition has become very expansive because there's a case to be made for vegan products , for instance , to be free from meat .

Speaker 2 6:39

Now the vegan movement is more fond of calling itself plant-based rather than meat-free and , I think , with good reason . So I think what you find with these movements is they start off being defined by what they're not . So they're low in alcohol , they're low in alcohol or they've got no alcohol . But as they mature , that maturation process sees them focus on what they are in fact full of . So it could be a particular class or subcategory and these sort of groupings form . So it'll morph from meat-free into plant-based and then it'll move into other benefits .

Speaker 2 7:16

So this is , if you like , an evolutionary process as a category gets going that I've been watching for 20 years .

Speaker 2 7:23

So we're all over it , and I've been working in this space for about five years Before it was really called low and no because obviously the boundaries between a low and no drink and a functional soft drink are a bit porous .

Speaker 2 7:38

You know you could define it as both and of course , one of the issues you have is putting your arms around this category from a quantification perspective , because the categories evolve too fast for the category to be defined from , if you like , a a sales perspective , because that involves the data companies putting all the products into specific buckets . And , of course , if half the low and no products , as we currently define it , are in soft drinks , then you're going to get a much smaller number for how big low and no is . So then you get into all sorts of fascinating for the statistician among us debates about what product belongs in what bucket and therefore how big the market really is and what's the definition . So , but I think what we can safely say is the space is exploding with all sorts of propositions and all sorts of brands , and estimates vary about how big it is and hence how fast it's growing , and estimates vary about how big it is and hence how fast it's growing .

Speaker 1 8:37

There's a lot of talk at the moment I'm hearing about the language that is used to define low and low beverages , and what can be included and what needs to be excluded , and whether a drink that's got perhaps a higher alcohol percentage but is designed to be drunk in a smaller quantity should be in that section or if it should be elsewhere . So you're right , it's a bit of a minefield and a quagmire of possible directions for things to go in , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 9:04

Yeah

The alcohol-content of Kombuchas

Speaker 2 9:04

, I mean take kombucha right .

Speaker 2 9:06

I mean , I love kombucha , I brew it at home and I've worked with a number of kombucha brands . Right Now kombucha has an argument to be a soft drink , a low alcohol drink and a no alcohol drink , depending on how you make it . So it belongs . If you draw a Venn diagram , it would be right in the middle of those three , because quite a lot of what's sold technically , if you measure it , has got an alcohol level higher than the permitted level , therefore requires excise duty in a bonded warehouse supply chain . It's not supposed to be like that .

Speaker 2 9:39

But there are batch variations in the production of kombucha and some of it can be one , two percent , perhaps even more , certainly for homebrew kombucha , higher in alcohol than than is permitted . So really , that is definitely part of beers , wines and spirits . Um , however , where it's about a quarter percent , half a percent in that sort of area , well , it's clearly low , but in theory there's a way of producing it . There'd be no so again . So just one . You know one , one area kombucha , which is a fast-growing area it's a log of kefir in in a water kefir or a dairy kefir shows you how slippery these concepts are absolutely , absolutely .

Speaker 1 10:17

How's your kombucha ? So you brew at home , do you ?

Speaker 2 10:20

yeah , so well . Some days it's very strong indeed and I have to water it down because it'll blow your head up . Other days it's too sweet . So , um , I have a huge jar and the kids say it's like a giant brain looking at oh , I bet yeah , see all the scoby and everything it's an eight gallon sort of child I have in the kitchen so it sits there and follows you around the room I love that fully hands-on um .

Speaker 1 10:45

So let's get to the crux of this conversation , then , which is these new drugs , new products that are making waves across many countries , that are providing a service for people who wish to lose weight and having a knock-on impact into different areas of our lives .

What are fat-jabs?

Speaker 1 11:14

So can you first of all start off by telling us , um , in a layman's terms , a little bit about the drugs themselves and what they actually do ?

Speaker 2 11:23

okay , so this all started in the from developments by pharma , pharma companies and pharmaceutical companies for the treatment of diabetes . Okay , so one of the issues clearly with with diabetes type one or type two and I won't go down the rabbit hole of unpacking those , those two at the moment but effectively it's about blood sugar management and when you should administer insulin or not very helpful in suppressing the , if you like , the glucose variability that a patient would would undergo . So therefore they were an adjunct , an add-on to a conventional diabetes therapy . Okay , so you would be measuring your blood sugar , administering insulin or not , depending on what the blood sugar reading was in an if , in an effort to keep your undulations in the various constituents of your blood level or levelish , because if you can keep it level then you can function very well . If you have these big gyrations in the composition of the blood , then you have extreme energy , extreme tiredness and eventually more complicating factors . So this class of drugs were developed really to do that all around blood sugar control effectively .

Speaker 2 12:43

The early versions were helpful but not compelling . They had many side effects ,

Liraglutide

Speaker 2 12:50

but the first version , which is liraglutide . So liraglutide actually started to have a very interesting side effect . Not only did it allow patients to stabilize crudely their blood sugar within a tolerance , within a band . But it actually seemed to be the cohort that were and they tested it in clinical trials . One group were administered a placebo , the other group were given um . They were grew side and they found that the cohort given the drug lost weight . So not only did they have better blood sugar but they actually lost weight and this got some interest going and that's effectively what's called an an off target effect . You go in trying to stabilize blood sugar . That's the outcome you want . It crudely did that , but it also had this off-target effect that was beneficial .

Semaglutide

Speaker 2 13:43

The second compound was semaglutide , so that's almost like sort of version 3.0 . There was a first version I won't go into , and that was exactly the same thing in the various clinical trials .

Speaker 2 13:58

It was more effective than liraglutide in stabilizing blood sugar and led to a greater weight loss in the cohort . And now there's a third version 4.0 , if you like called tezepatide , that delivers even greater efficacy of that . So very significant impacts indeed . It's probably one and a half times two times the impact of semaglutide .

How they're taken

Speaker 2 14:23

So you've got these compounds that are really delivering for diabetes management . They really are , most of which are injectables .

Speaker 2 14:33

Sometimes it's a bolus , ie one injection subcontinuously for seven days . Sometimes it's a bolus ie one injection subcontinuously for seven days . Sometimes it'sa daily injection . But there are some pills so rebellious is a is a brand name for a , an oral pill that concerns the dose that was taken daily . So there is an oral version of this and I don't see why in time , there couldn't be a topical , ie a patch that people put on their shoulder for administration . So you've got this class of compounds fantastic at reducing um blood sugar variability in diabetics , this huge off-target effect that seems to lose weight . So it doesn't take long before the pharmaceutical companies think I'll tell you what , I'll just make a b brand and target it at weight loss and market it to that population . So that's what what's happened effectively , and there's been an arms race of the various pharmaceutical companies . They've all backed a certain compound and , as that's gone forward , they've marketed it as a weight loss drug at the same time as marketing , effectively , the same compound to the diabetic community as a blood sugar reduction tool .

Speaker 1 15:35

Okay , okay , and so this isn't the main topic of this conversation , but I I need to ask . So

Side effects

Speaker 1 15:41

, as they were designed as a service for diabetics , for those people that take them for general weight loss , would they have any adverse effects that they wouldn't be expecting otherwise in terms of sort of side effects from from taking them either ?

Speaker 2 15:57

whether it's there , are side effects and again , when we get into the relationship with alcohol , that is , side effects . Okay , so there are known side effects and as clearly as the drugs go get more efficacious ie they have more bites , they do more what you want the side effects are magnified . Um , now , many people want those side effects and in fact , weirdly enough , they're taking the drug not for the primary impact but they're taking it for the side effects . Okay , so with semaglutide , the , the , you know , the primary side effect that people are after is is weight loss and that's achieved by a number of pathways . Clearly , the blood sugar control okay , because it's not just diabetics who could benefit from greater blood sugar control , but also satiety , so that feeling of fullness , of , if you like , a satisfaction of eating . So that really is one of the big drivers of this . And there's two ways that it makes you feel kind of more full for longer . One , it slows down gastric emptying , so food takes longer to go through the normal process of digestion . It adds 20 , 25% to that . So the period after you've had a meal if you normally get peckish again , say two hours after it um , you know , on semaglutide you'll get peckish three hours , say after . It just slows it down and that , combined with the blood sugar effect , means that you feel less hungry . Because big gyrations in blood sugar create big peaks , peaks in appetite and various hormones ghrelin , et cetera . I won't bore you with them but you spike your hormone production of hunger hormones , whereas if you're nice and steady you have a it's more of a trickle effect of those hormones . So that is effectively .

Speaker 2 17:57

It's in layman's terms . It reduces the pleasure that you get from anything you eat and drink . So you might pick up a crispy cream , for instance , and in the normal sense you look at the crispy cream and you just don't fancy it . And normally you say normally I love Krispy Kreme because I have one every Wednesday morning or whenever it is . But you might look at the Krispy Kreme and just mentally you wouldn't because your brain's saying I'm just not going to get the pleasure from that .

How they affect alcohol/drug-consumption

Speaker 2 18:25

And that goes for alcohol as well , because it's not like it changes the impact of alcohol . Alcohol still goes through all the normal pathways , the chemical cascades , the effects are the same , but the pleasure derived from the journey , if you like , as alcohol goes through the system is really squashed . So that's led to these compounds being deployed for alcohol use disorder and programs and principally in the states , whereby they take cohorts and they give some of them placebo , some of them these compounds , and they compare the effects , and the effects are startling , absolutely startling .

Speaker 1 19:05

Really , that's quite interesting . I didn't realise that they had already been used in trials to see if they could actively be part of a recovery or reduction programme for people .

Speaker 2 19:16

Yeah , so it's very much the cutting edge of addiction therapy , for instance um . In the same way , and I think what we're discovering and this is a sort of hypothesis , so not presented as fact , but we're discovering that different compounds have different effects depending on the substance in question . So ibogaine , for instance , is used a lot in opioid addiction . Um , semaglutide seems to work particularly well with alcohol and a few other derivatives . Others work well for tobacco , etc . So there's different compounds that seem to marry up with um , different addictions that are based on different substances . Because effectively you're dealing with chemical pathways in the brain , usually resulting in a big dump of dopamine , the feel-good factor . So it's ways of disrupting that link between take the substance , get the dump of dopamine . There's a pathway . What these compounds do is sort of chop that pathway up , so you take the substance but you don't get the dopamine and therefore there's no urge to go back and repeat .

Speaker 1 20:23

And then also , I suppose that marries with the fact that you're not getting these spikes in your blood sugar , which are affecting things beyond just your blood sugar , like your mood and your ability to sort of have your self-control . We all see it , see , I mean even those who perhaps don't consider themselves to be on the spectrum of alcohol use disorder . We've all recognized that when you cut back on drinking alcohol , your um intake of sugary foods goes up right .

Speaker 2 20:50

Yeah , exactly so it leads . I mean , depending on your view of these compounds , it leads to either a more kind of serene , predictable , kind of static mood state across the day , across the week , or it turns people into robots , right ?

Speaker 2 21:06

and able to derive much pleasure from life , and I actually think a bit of both is true , because if we do remove your moods and we drop you a couple of steps down the ladder , where your feelings aren't as dominant , you are going to be more stable , but you can't . The highs aren't going to be as high , but the lows aren't going to be as low . So you're not going to be reaching for the comfort food in the same way , but nor are you going to be dancing around the kitchen to your favorite song either . You know if it comes on the radio . So it is a trade-off , because your mood state is now going to be within a certain band , whereas before it was a lot broader and you were able to move through the moods .

Speaker 1 21:51

And would this be something that individuals , once they started taking it or using it , whether it's topically or injections would this be something that they would need to continue to use without any clear ending , or is it something that's advised or practiced for only short periods , for example ? You know , as you say , to affect things like your mood , and we all know people that go on antidepressants for too long and just become too reliant on them yeah , so you

Brain chemistry & tolerance

Speaker 1 22:20

are .

Speaker 2 22:21

You're not altering your brain chemistry by sustained use , but you are getting aware out in the same way that with alcohol , say , if somebody has five units one week and then they keep drinking five units , they will need six units and then eventually seven units and eight units to have the same effect . All right , so you are getting a tolerance and a wear out to these compounds over life . Okay , and most of their weight loss impact happens between sort of month two and month seven . I think the latest set of charts I saw were after that . You do get a wear out , and that's really just to do with the neuroscience . There are certain receptors in the brain and once they're saturated and covered with these substances , you you can't go too too much further than that . So you are advised to take breaks to allow the brain to reset . And during those breaks and this is one of the critiques of the compounds if the patient , if the user , hasn't built new pathways , new habits , changed their mindset , then there's absolutely nothing to stop them falling back into the wrong ways . The sort of lighter side of that is certainly liraglutide is a one-day action , semaglutide is a one-day action . Semiglutide is a seven-day action . Okay , what we call . You know you have a big dose and slowly it wears out .

Speaker 2 23:45

So there are people in the biohacking community , for instance , who are going let's say their kids are going to a kid's birthday party . It's just about the most unhealthy food set of choices on the planet going to a kid's birthday party , if you've ever hosted one of these . So so there are people out there who would take an injection of liraglutide for the day of the kid's birthday party . Then they wouldn't pile into the pizza , the cakes

Impact on low-and-no drinkers

Speaker 2 24:38

, the fairy cakes or whatever , um , and then the next day that you know they'd wake up totally normal . So people are using it tactically . When they know that they're going to be in an environment where they're going to have plenty of of whatever it is they're trying to avoid , they'll just take a dash of this to to avoid it . So , um , certainly in the states that , that's very prevalent . So the dark side of um , this not living lasting change gives you the light side that it can be used tactically to navigate a very difficult social situation .

Speaker 1 25:08

So , speaking of social situations , then , and sort of using this product to help you manage , perhaps those times when you might be facing quite a few drinks , you know you might be going to a party and it's going to be in a bar and you're not wanting to drink very much . What is the impact that this drug is going to be having on low and you're not wanting to drink very much ? What is the impact that this drug is going to be having on low and no drinkers ?

Speaker 2 25:33

yeah , so the literature says tiredness is a greater factor . So you would extrapolate that to be if a person was going in , their normal bedtime is like 11 , 12 o'clock , you'd expect them to feel like it's 11 , say at nine , so then they're less likely to be dancing until dawn and would be kind of step one . Step two would be it doesn't . It would just dissociate them picking up the drink and then expecting the benefit to them picking up the drink . So they , they would just . It just removes that pathway that there's going to be a feel good . It doesn't stop them doing it . They can do it and they can still have the same physiologic effects , but they're just not going to get that kick that they would get out of the compound in the first place . They're going to get somewhat of a kick because it doesn't eliminate feelings and it doesn't eliminate dopamine and all the other hormone chemical cascades that are going on , but it squashes them very significantly , depending on the compound .

Speaker 1 26:37

Um , it does that , yeah I should imagine , depending on the compound and depending on the individual . Of course , we must say that all these things are varying results for different individuals .

Speaker 2 26:46

I mean I'm giving you you the averages from these trials .

Speaker 2 26:50

The other thing the trials show is , of course , that would not just work for drinks , it would work for food as well and probably you know it's fair to say for music and for social interaction . So everything goes from being , let's say , 5k , full colour , high definition , to being maybe 1080p the pleasure you get from broadly everything would go down all right . So there's a clear trade-off here because you're disrupting that brain chemistry , all right . So I think people you know to your earlier point about you know what happens in a lot of the studies . A lot of the cohort put all the weight back on again . We haven't got to the studies with alcohol use disorder about how sticky those changes are yet because the studies are relatively new . We know there's a big relapse rate , but we also know that the , the , the cure , the , the short-term curative rate is really high and obviously it's not as invasive as some of the other procedures that people go to with alcohol use disorder and I think then it's it's about what happens in that time then , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 27:54

it's about um , as you mentioned before , um creating new neural pathways , creating new habits , creating new systems of belief and self-identity . If that can be done within that time between first use and last use , then , once the use has stopped , hopefully some of those changes become more ingrained in who that person is as an individual , and that's what creates the lasting change yeah , I completely agree that it's got to be self-directed doesn't mean it can't be enhanced with a coach , a mentor , a program or a group .

Speaker 2 28:26

Not at all . That's super helpful . But it buys the individual time . Whether the issue is food and over consumption , or it's alcohol or whatever it is , it buys individual time to put a new structure , a new framework , some new behaviors in place . And also because you could in theory stay on this , for you know , say it buys you a lot of time Because the evidence says you need sort of eight cycles to build a new habit . It's all of that thinking . You're certainly going to get eight cycles within six months , 12 months . So there is enough runway for the individual in the right environment to build the right behaviors . So that's why people think it's so effective . It is worth talking about . You know how , how people get hold of this , because of course that is difficult .

Speaker 2 29:14

Um , okay the short answer . So in just to say how pervasive it is in the states this year seven percent of the population on these compounds , which is a huge

Impact on Walmart

Speaker 2 29:23

number , fairly obviously so , um , it's really now starting to show up in the sales statistics , whereby I mean Walmart , for instance , measure total units of alcohol sold across their store network . In the States that's starting to fall and they're pointing to semi-glutide as one of those factors . The individual booze brands are at the moment maintaining the line that they can't see it in the numbers . That's possibly true I suspect they can , but there's other things going on that just sort of muddies the water a little bit .

Speaker 2 29:57

But obviously over there you don't have a socialised healthcare policy so you can effectively as an individual self-refer , provided you've got the cash . You can have the compounds Over here . It's available on the NHS and it's very much in the bucket of weight loss therapy . So it's an alternative to gastric band or some others and you have to sort of go through the machine and they'll give you talk therapy and then they'll give you some other modalities and then eventually , if none of those work , you might be offered a gastric band or this product . You can self-refer to an online pharmacy and that's a bit more of an unregulated market . I mean , technically it's not , but I think in practice it's slightly less stringent . And of course people are sourcing you know diabetes meds . So you can get off-label use of diabetes meds , because that's what they effectively are as well , so people can access the diabetes meds that are the same compound as the ones sold for weight loss .

Speaker 1 30:55

So it's very much becoming part of the regular process when you're going to see your doctor , perhaps , whether you're going private or NHS it will become part of the conversation now to say this is an option for you ? Yeah , I think so , and I think the .

Speaker 2 31:13

There are some uk studies just starting , so you know we're catching up , playing catch up on this , you know , for for addiction and alcohol use

UK studies

Speaker 2 31:20

disorder . So , um , that isn't . It isn't a current therapy that's in mass use . It's not sort of licensed as such , but there are . That doesn't mean there aren't certain medical groups on the health service . You know , playing and exploring this and certainly all the data I've seen is it's really impressive in terms of the changes you can make to an individual , but by , as I say , by buying them time to reset their thinking . So even if there's a relapse , they know they can hop back onto these compounds at some point and go back to that state where , where they had more control over things well .

Speaker 1 31:56

I think that that is going to give quite a lot of hope to a lot of people who are listening , who have perhaps tried other things and you know they don't perhaps feel that that things like aa might not be right for them , moderating might not be right for them . Self-willpower , as we know , just sort of white knuckling things through is one of the hardest ways to achieve anything for a lot of people in these circumstances . Can you talk to me a bit now about the industry , the low-no industry and the impact that , because

Low/no drinks industry impact

Speaker 1 32:28

you said that in the States , for example , there are major grocery brands or stores who are seeing a reduction in the amount of alcohol that's being bought , but specifically the low-no industry . What sort of impact do you think that this could have on the drinks that are produced and provided to people who are looking to drink less ?

Speaker 2 32:51

yeah , great . So this is , this is a fantastic topic and the short answer is nobody knows um , because we've never been here . So we are in the , in the land of pure speculation . Um , so if you look at nestle , though , they've set a research center , some of which is in the uk , all about exploring um , the impact across all the Nestle brands .

Speaker 2 33:09

So , and I think you would say what would you be able to say reasonably ? You'd be able to say portion size would decrease for a patient on these compounds because , simply , they'll be fuller earlier . You know you couldn't have a full roast dinner , for instance . You know you would have two roast potatoes , a small piece of beef . You know every meal would have to shrink by , you know , depending on the dose , one month figure , quarter , you know , maybe even a half um , so the amount of calories that someone's going to eat would be , you know , significantly less the .

Speaker 2 33:45

Because they're deriving that's point one . Point two , because they're deriving less pleasure from food and drink , the flavors need to be dialed up for them . To give you , you know , the capsicum , the chili , um , all these you know . And if it's in a drink , you know , let's say , it's a lemon based flavor , you need to dial up . The lemon , the lime , whatever it is , needs to be more sensorially powerful , so the sensory profile would need to change . Moderate flavors and sort of standard flavors would be very unlikely to move the dial . So if lower no is offering a subtle flavor , that's not something I think that would particularly switch the lights on of somebody who's taking these compounds . So you're into bold , strong flavors , um , I think the last thing is um , packing them with , you know , adaptogens , packing them with nootropics , I think is a really positive thing to do , because if you think about what the patient is doing by buying themselves this time and building this , you know I've described it as a runway to , to get the new behaviors airborne , if you like is it's all about neural reprogramming , it's all about , you know , synaptogenesis , so anything that promotes that .

Speaker 2 35:03

So if you think about sort of lion's mane , various other , you know mushrooms and various other adaptogens , that's precisely the sort of lion's mane , various other you know mushrooms and various other adaptogens . That's precisely the sort of compounds that would stack really well with that , that period of time while the person's on this , so they can remodel their thinking at a sort of neuron level to take the new behaviors forward .

Speaker 1 35:23

So I think it stacks really well with functional um functional drinks I wonder then if this would lead to , yes , another sort of category within low no then of of drinks who ,

New categories

Speaker 1 35:36

because obviously , if you're trying to create something with bolder flavors , stronger flavors , that's then going to turn off some people who prefer a more subtle flavor , uh , the you know a lot of people who won't be using these sort of surfaces and these sort of drugs would be less inclined to imbibe those drinks . So it seems to me that there's sort of two paths that could go down then . So you'd have a brand who would then bring out another skew , which would be this drink is perfect for those on a Zenpick or semi-glutide who are trying to do this , because it has all these bold flavours , it has all these extra elements in there for you , or it brings out a completely new category of producer that goes we are just targeting people who are using these products and we are making drinks specifically for that type of person to retired people .

Speaker 2 36:43

You always go for more salt , you always go for more flavours , you always go for a smaller pack size , smaller serving and you go for a more traditional flavour mix . That's what sells to that segment . And if you're marketing baby food , if you think about it , it's very different . Again , I think you end up doing a particular set of variables for this segment . I think that's the logic of particular set of variables for this segment . I think that's the logic of it .

Speaker 2 37:03

Some drinks will lend themselves more to it than others , but I think that's exactly what you would do , is something like that and that's what the food companies that's why Nestle and various others are wrapping their heads around it . It's kind of , if you've got 7% of the US population you know you're predicted to rise to sort of 10 plus next year you know that's a really big number and if that gets transposed to europe and there's no reason to suspect in time , probably with more safeguards , probably with more paperwork , it comes to europe , then you've got the whole continent . Basically a huge subset is going to be , you know , have quite different needs than it normally has . So I think , in the same way you , you know , would develop a range for a particular new demographic . This is a new demographic that's happening and coalescing right in front of our eyes .

Speaker 1 37:56

It makes me excuse me , it makes me , you know , wonder how the low-no brands are going to respond to this . As we were saying earlier on , it's such an emerging market . Yes , it's been a few years now and a lot has come out . There's no set way of doing things yet when it comes to low-no . Yes , there has taken inspiration from traditional beverages , traditional alcoholic drinks , but every week I hear about a new type of drink coming out , a new type of product , a new way of doing things , a new technology .

Speaker 1 38:30

And I do sometimes feel for these brands in terms of how you keep up , how do you keep up with the demand for new things , for new ways of doing things , for new flavors ? Because this would present quite a challenge . I think in terms of production , if you're looking at a smaller independent which a lot of the low-known market is made up of smaller independents that the money might be going mostly to the big brands because they have the money for the marketing and that sort of thing . But the majority of the market is small , independent brands and how they rise to such a challenge and something that is pretty much unknown .

Speaker 2 39:10

Yeah , no , I think it is . I think it's a challenge for everybody and I think , even if you were to try and predict that , as the big FMCG businesses are , how this is going to play out , the war's going to be fought at the level of the skew in individual categories . So , and I don't think it's so different , because what do we know about low and low , low and no ? Now , right , we know that flavor innovation plays a key role . Shoppers are looking for the alcohol taste and style , but with unique and exciting flavors . So I think that remains .

Speaker 2 39:45

You know people will want if they are , you know , doing this this runway , this period of adjustment , whilst on the compounds , they're going to want to embed new habits . So they want to find something that , when they come off , genuinely excites them and they can live with , as opposed to , you know , the alcohol containing product . So they're either going to switch down from high alcohol to , say , a mid strength , or they go mid strength to low , or they're going low to no , whatever that . Wherever they find their home , whatever they want to do , they're going to need to find something they can live with off compound and that's that's the point . You're designing something for them .

Speaker 2 40:22

On compound short term . Yeah , that's great , but there's a lot of people coming into that and a lot of people going out . It's a huge churn in that segment . It's going to be a really unique segment . The , the size may remain the same , but but the people who are in the last six months probably aren't going to be in the next six months , so you've got a design for them for when they come out , when and come off compound and start to live this new life Now , whether that's sugar avoidance or fat avoidance or alcohol avoidance or whatever , that's what you need to design for .

Speaker 1 40:50

It's a fascinating topic . It really is . There's so many nuances in it in terms of just how it's going to impact all areas of our lives , I think , because this is not just going to be , you know , people will just stop eating less food and we'll all get a little bit

Wider impacts & additional ingredients

Speaker 1 41:06

slimmer . If it's going to be affecting our pleasure senses and how we respond to things , then this extrapolates out to many different areas of our lives , beyond just low and no , into , you know , all sorts of consumption , but also relationships and how people are interacting with each other , and what we're doing with our time and where we're spending our money .

Speaker 2 41:23

Yeah , I , think , yeah , one watch out right . I think you know anybody thinking this is a one-way street and a no-brainer , I think . Consider this Many of the studies have shown that , whilst the weight loss is dramatic , disproportionately it's protein that has been absent in the diet and therefore it's lean body mass that has , um , that has come off , as well as fat . All right , so people have ended up in in the parlance as being sort of skinny fat at the end of it . So they've ended up being smaller versions of themselves , perhaps proportionately , with less muscle mass than they started with . So , great news you've dropped to dress size or two or three or four , fantastic . But actually , are you , from a longevity standpoint , in better shape than you went in ? Well , yes , you've lost the fat , but if you've lost the lean mass as well , I'd argue you're no better off . In fact , you could well be worse off , because you can end up being weaker and more fragile than you were before . So I think my personal advice would be to the low and no guys out there would be if you can design a proposition that can help these people be more anti-fragile . So you're talking there .

Speaker 2 42:37

Perhaps in the world of collagen , you're probably certainly talking protein . You know whereby you are trying to treat almost these people who have become through this pathway . They've they've shrunk but they're under muscled . Let's say they're not overweight but they're under muscled . What can you do through no and no to help that that population , because that seems to be what it turns out smaller , under muscle people , not overweight but under muscle . So how do we , how do we solve for that ?

Speaker 2 43:08

With with low and no , if they've come in with an alcohol use disorder pathway , there's no reason to expect there'll be any different to that because , if you do know , classically , there's a big cohort of alcohol use disorder who are consuming too many calories through the alcohol . It's displacing calories from food . Therefore , they're not going in in great state , they're coming out as sort of thinner versions of the same thing . So how do you do that ? And that again talks to the need on this runway for the individual user to build the habits of exercise and just being aware that this is a great way to lose a lot of lean muscle as well as the fat . So how are you going to do that ? They would need to do some form of resistance exercise effectively to do that , or can you know ? You know , because there's no point having just a high protein diet if you're not putting the stress on the body and asking it to convert all that protein into to lean mass so it's almost more that it needs to be approached as a lifestyle overhaul .

Speaker 1 44:07

really , you know , it's not just take this jab and everything's done .

Speaker 2 44:12

It's take this and work on your physical health , your mental health , your resistance training , your sense of self and what you put in your body when you're done with it yeah , disappointingly , it's not a free hit right , um , because biologically that's not how we're built , um , you would , you know , a user would be well advised to to build , you know , sleep as the foundation and then clean up their diet and add some exercise . Just doing those three things and moving through these compounds will absolutely transform them , but they would need to build those three building blocks of sleep , healthy diet and exercise , and so in that sense it's a very conventional adjunct and I don't think it's silver bullet . I really don't . It's an adjunct , it's another tool in the toolbox that maybe a dietician , a medical professional can use or maybe , you know , an entrepreneurial guy could source from the internet and off and off they go and self-medicate people do that all the time , particularly in the states . So it's a it's a tool in the toolbox to be used alongside the basics this is fascinating .

Speaker 1 45:21

I think there is so much to unpack here and I could ask you questions all day . I won't . I know you're busy . I just have two last bits for you . One is one that I ask everybody who comes on the podcast . Now , your own personal sort of whether you drink alcohol or not , it's not so much relevant here . But if you were off to a barbecue , perhaps on a more sunny day than we have today , and you were bringing a low or no beverage with you , do you have any favorites that you like to enjoy ?

Speaker 2 45:50

yeah , I do like the lucky saint . Um , okay , I think lucky saint's great . Um , I happen to know um the the one or two in the team there . So , yeah , they're great , they'll'll be my beverage of choice .

Speaker 1 46:02

Your go-to . It's a good choice , a very good choice , hamish . Where shall we send people if they want to know more about you , more about HRA , if they want to get in touch with you or any of the team ?

Speaker 2 46:13

Yeah , sure . So if you look on the website which is wwwhra-globalcom and then it's H-R-A hyphen global dot com , that's H-R-A hyphen global dot com . Lots of resources about . You know , semaglutide low and no on there . So have a nose and drop me a line . You'll see my contacts on there .

Speaker 1 46:31

Excellent . Thank you so much for joining me today . Hamish , Not at all .

Speaker 2 46:34

Not at all . Thank you very much , Denise .

Speaker 1 46:36

Hey , hey , I just want to jump on real quick before I let you go , to say that none of what you've heard today should be considered to be professional medical advice . Neither Hamish nor I are doctors , nor are we recovery specialists . This is simply a case of me being really nosy and picking the brain of someone who knows a bit more about the low-no industry than I do . If you are suffering with a life-damaging problem when it comes to drugs , alcohol , food or any other substance , then please seek professional help straight away . Until next time , take care of yourself .