Introducing Ama

Speaker 1 1:12

Hey , hey , lono Nation , and welcome back to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . We are chatting today with Aaron McAllister and Danny Lasser from Amma Brewery . Now these guys are doing some spectacular work , bringing together Petnat tea fermentation and I will ask them to explain exactly what that means in a bit and a passion for gastronomy to create a liquid that is literally enjoyed all over the world . I believe they're in something like 17 countries having a look at the website and that's really phenomenal and exciting for me , especially in the low-no industry , because it is hard for low-no brands to make that kind of impact and it's so great that these guys are doing it .

Speaker 1 1:53

I also love , danny , and your introductory statement on the homepage of the website , which says fermenting impossible dreams and goes on to describe their amas as low in alcohol , lightly sparkling and deliciously complex a fine-aged fermented infusion for the modern lifestyle . So talk about painting a taste picture with words . So thank you so much for joining me today . Guys , can I start by asking you to introduce yourselves to our watchers and listeners so we know who's who , and then I'm going to ask you everything .

Speaker 2 2:30

I'm Aaron . Thank you for the kind words , denise . That's making us blush a little bit . I'm Aaron . I'm the production manager for Ama Brewery . Being a small company , we handle a lot of other things as well , but that's my title . I've been with the company since more or less the launch in 2020 . And yeah , we handle sales marketing and production here at the plant .

Speaker 3 2:56

Yeah , thank you , denise , for the invitation . My name is Danny Danny Lassa , and I like to say that I am a chef or I'm a cook . Actually , I'm kind of like somebody that should be out from this world . Until when , working on the culinary side or in astronomy and creativity area , in a restaurant I used to work , we began collaborating very close to sommeliers and drink people , and that's the thing that took us to mixing ideas , fermentations and ingredients in a complex drink . And nowadays we are dealing with this amazing project , this amazing challenge that is Sama . That is , this no low alcohol frame . So happy to be here with you .

Speaker 1 3:40

Wonderful . Thank you very much . And so you launched in 2020 , did you say there , aaron ? So you've been going for a while and have done some fantastic things already , and it's amazing to see the progression that brands like yours are taking . But before we get into all of that , I just

What is pét-nat fermentation?

Speaker 1 3:57

said in the introduction that I would ask you to explain what the PETNAP fermentation means , because I know that there are a lot of people who are listening or watching who may not have come across the term before . So , in terms of what it is and how it differs from other traditional and more modern fermentation processes , would you like to take that , dani , or is that more your field , aaron ?

Speaker 3 4:21

We can do both together . Actually , no , I think one of the most difficult things and you pointed just for the very first question was the name you should have for this very drink , because this is something that there was nothing known about . This kind of drink and actually amapetina tea comes from petit natural , that is , the french petit natural or ancestral drink . That is an sparkling , naturally sparkling drink coming out from mainly the second fermentation of a drink or of a of a must that has not been completely fermented from the first fermentation . That's kind of the sparkling natural drinks .

Speaker 3 5:01

Actually , let's say that our beginning is just like a kombucha , a tea-based must , where we introduce an ascoby symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast . We do the first fermentation , we do not end or finish all of this first fermentation and we bottle the drink , since all the microorganisms are trapped in the bottle . There's kind of a second fermentation in the bottle . So when we explain this , it's kind of understanding that the champagne is to a wine , what am I is to a kombucha , somehow that the champagne is to a wine , what am I to a kombucha , somehow .

Speaker 1 5:40

Okay , I like that . I like that . That's a way that everyone can understand that . So there's that difference and that step up in what is created and how it's done .

Speaker 2 5:50

Absolutely . I think , as Danny was saying , at the end of the day the kombucha is kind of a raw material for us . It's not the end of the day . The kombucha is is kind of a raw material for us , it's not the end product . And that's where we get a lot of our complexity and and sort of the gastronomic nature of our drink is through that secondary fermentation , the aging process . So much of the champagne world as well . When we talk about metal , ancestral or pity on that red , they're referring to the same method that we use . It's just that the the raw materials that we start with are slightly different . But something really important for us is that minimum of six months of aging on the leaves in the bottle . There's no pasteurization , there's no ultrafiltration . So the process that we do is very complex , but it's also very natural in that sense .

Accidental discovery

Speaker 1 6:33

There must have been a lot of trial and error to come to that six months . Then how did you go ? I mean , was it just a case of every week ? We're going to try a little bit and see what happens . How does that process happen ?

Speaker 3 6:45

actually , it's very curious how even the , the product itself is a matter of a mistake , because actually our partner , that is ramon he's not here he was the one kind of in 2017 , more or less trying to do kind of kombucha somehow they bottled and they store them at home the , the bottles and actually something happened his wife was pregnant , so he didn't . They didn't continue to to to produce more kombucha and all the bottles were like stored there and when they were back one year later , they realized that the bottles were like plenty of sparkling and plenty of full aromas . So that was kind of the beginning . Oh my God , something's going on , something different here . So that was the moment on which we realized that there was something useful to , to , to try .

Speaker 3 7:40

But from that moment on , as you were suggesting , dennis , there were , I would say , many , many liters like they were like for garbage , so they were useful non-useful , because you know , it's a very , very complex fermentation , although I don't want saying and it's still very artisanal . These are our tanks In order to reach the minimum procedure . Wow , there was science , there was product , there was trial and error , and nowadays we can say that we've got a method so we can reach somehow these complex drinks , but it was among like knowledge , science , artisanal try or many , many things going there and we are still , we still consider ourselves like ignorance in this , in this kind of like complex fermentation , because there is a lot of thing to know here .

Speaker 2 8:36

No for sure . We were starting off with a knowledge base that isn't particularly evolved , although the kombucha market the sort of SCOBY-based market is expanding very heavily and the scientific understanding behind all of the fermentation is also growing quite quickly now . When this first started , or when Ramon brought the first SCOBY to the restaurant where he and Danny worked originally in 2011 , it was very much a sort of semi-pseudosynthetic kind of approach to how the fermentation works , the benefits , the negatives , all those types of things . It wasn't necessarily proved , albeit it was a drink that has been consumed for more than 2 000 years . It's just that it would never have that value associated with it that , say , a wine would have or a beer would have , where people have really gone in depth behind it to try and understand what's going on .

Speaker 2 10:02

So when we started , we you know the knowledge base wasn't so strong and we had to do lots of trials and made lots of errors , but advancing our understanding and the industry's knowledge as a whole as well . And now it's really interesting to talk to people who work in the world of wine and people who work in the world of wine in terms of microbiology and yeast , and they come to us and say we didn't think it would work this way , but actually , having analyzed what you're doing , it's completely changed our perception how things work , so that for us is something quite exciting , but , as danny was saying , it's a lot of work . We have more than 200 types of bacteria , more than 200 types of yeast in our in our mix right now . So controlling each and every one of them , whether whether or not they produce good aromas , bad aromas , defects , all those types of things it's a very , very complex balance , but luckily , over the years , we've managed to more or less get a get a control of it and we're still working on making that much better as well that's .

Speaker 1 11:01

That's . That's phenomenal . So do either of you or someone in the group has sort of a microbiology background . How do you even

Microbiology + gastronomy =

Speaker 1 11:07

start to get into understanding these different types of yeast and how they're going to impact , and then not even to mention the fact that you need to then restrict some of that impact so that they don't ferment to go above the ABVs that you want ? It sounds like I've got visions of you know science labs and beakers and all that sort of thing going on .

Speaker 2 11:29

It is a little bit like that .

Speaker 2 11:30

I think Danny and Ramon particularly their backgrounds is in the kitchen , is in fine dining , but it's in one of the most innovative restaurants in Europe which was at the forefront of sort of molecular gastronomy wave and then still innovates from now , and they've always used fermentation in the restaurant as part of their sort of daily routine , whether that's using the cellulose part of the SCOBY as part of a dish or whether that's using other fermentations keffirs , misos , all those types of things in such a flavor fermentations , keffirs , misos , all those types of things in search of a flavor .

Speaker 2 12:12

So over those years they've naturally gained a large understanding of microbiology and they also have a lot of partners in industry , whether that be education , such as Harvard or places like that , or whether it's more sort of industrial senses , laboratories , that type of thing . So , although we're not biochemists or microbiologists , having those years of experience of working with fermentations in a more sort of gastronomic orientation perhaps has led to us being able to apply our knowledge and achieve results without necessarily having the full understanding of the theory behind it . And that's something that we're working on now , and working really hard on , is understanding all of the theory behind it and that's something that we're working on now and working really hard on is understanding all of the different processes and being able to sort of link the science and the sort of gastronomic edge much more closely , I think .

Speaker 3 12:58

Actually one of our partners . His name is Sancho , you know , and Sancho Rodriguez is a vigneron , he's working in his own vineyard , he's producing wines . I would say his brother , telmo , is one of the gurus in Spain in wine production and I would say that one of the philosophy's main values is the low intervention . So , apart from doing , let's say , this difficult drink , for us the challenge was intervening the less possible in this process . So that's the reason why we keep it artisanal , we keep it with no intervention , and that's the reason why it's so difficult to deal with all those microorganisms . So we can reach , let's say , a balanced and low alcohol drink . So we can reach , let's say , a balanced and low alcohol drink .

Speaker 3 13:54

But , dennis , just to be honest , I would say that , being low or no , in our case it was a matter of coincidence because we were in love with , let's say , this fermentation that nobody took care of to try , let's say , a fine dining product . So what we are interested in mainly is in the taste , in the body , in the texture , but in the end of the day , there is low alcohol in that . That is incredible , because we think that that's somehow linking with the trends of our life philosophies nowadays . So this is a drink that is naturally low alcohol , and that's a very big advance , but it's a challenge also , because we need to know every step and every component in there .

Speaker 2 14:34

I think that comes as well from the sort of the makers that we , this makers alliance that we're part of now , and the way that we approach development of the drink has been a flavor first sort of process . We're not selecting 0.48 percent alcohol and then cracking on the flavor . No , we're working much , much more towards . Is this good to drink ? Does it pair well , uh , and is it something that we can produce in a sort of cohesive manner , a more sustainable manner , and also work with good ingredients ? The basis of our teas , the water that we use , is that , you know , something that we can be in control of .

Speaker 2 15:16

We don't want to make something that's industrial , because we feel like there's a lot of cynical players now in the space , in the nolo space , people coming in making products to make money and take advantage of the of the growing trend . That's not necessarily a bad thing , because at the end of the day , they're the ones with the big marketing budgets and the ones that actually make people take sort of attention of this space , but at the same time , it kind of puts us in the same barrel as them when we talk about nolo , which is why sometimes we don't even talk about the fact that our drink is no low in alcohol . We just talk about it being an ancestral , a pet natty , something that's suitable for pairings , and then making reference to the lower alcohol content when we're more sort of a service context or when someone's specifically looking for that type of thing I think there's a lot of um really interesting things to unpack there .

Speaker 1 16:08

I think um it's interesting that you talk about you mentioned the makers alliance and we're definitely going to come back onto that one because I think it's absolutely fantastic . I um shared about it in the last issue of the magazine and want to know more about it . Um , I think it's very interesting . You talk about sort of um big alcohol and those ? Um . I think it's very interesting . You talk about sort of big alcohol and those conglomerates that

Big alcohol

Speaker 1 16:29

have come into this space specifically with the aim of making money . And I , like you , I have two minds about it because ultimately , you know , we do live in a corporate society and people have businesses and mortgages and families and people do need to make money and it's understandable that that's a goal for some businesses .

Speaker 1 16:52

I think what big alcohol is doing , which is amazing , is broadening the awareness of the low and no market and putting it in the mainstream .

Speaker 1 17:04

When you're seeing brands like Peroni Zero sponsoring Formula One and Guinness Zero sponsoring the rugby , you know , and then I think even on our soap operas , you know , you've got some .

Speaker 1 17:17

I think Heineken Zero is on the bar of the Rover's Return and Coronation Street on TV over here . So you know it's definitely making that awareness , but what it's also doing is making it really difficult for the smaller independent brands , because anybody in any business knows that without good marketing , without people knowing about what you're doing , you can have the best idea in the world , the best drink in the well , but if nobody gets to find out about it , then it's not going to be viable . So I think it poses a really interesting dichotomy of of how we appreciate what they're doing . Yes , a rising tide raises all boats , as the saying goes , but do they have the same passion , the same quality , the same enthusiasm , the same morals as the smaller independents like yourselves who are trying to get the word out there and finding it hard ? I mean , you guys are doing phenomenally well looking on your website as to where people can get your drinks around the world , but sadly , I think you're a minority rather than a majority when it comes to the more independent brands I think .

Speaker 2 18:26

I think it's . We are in , I think , more than 20 countries now , and for us that's very exciting . But it's also true that the places where we're at are the top restaurants , top hotels , top bars , those types of spaces which aren't necessarily the most sort of mass market places where people are going to be able to find your product . And that's something as a small company , where we're not currently able to do much of is go out and say to the person in the street hey , try this , compare this to one of these bigger products from one of the bigger players and see which one you prefer . We are a premium product . Our pricing is considerably towards the top of the pyramid . Our pricing is considerably towards the top of the pyramid . That's because of the ingredients used and the process that goes into this and all of the various factors that go into our pitman teas . But I think it's definitely a case where having a group of producers that come together and work together to try and create a mass is much more sustainable for our industry and will actually help push the big players towards being much more sustainable for our industry and will actually help push the big players towards being much more sort of responsible in the products they're producing .

Speaker 2 19:36

They can no longer just say it hasn't got alcohol , therefore it doesn't taste so good . They have to look for good flavor . People are looking for more and more premium options nowadays , whether that's de-alcoholized wine or whether it's non-alcoholic spirits or those types of things . People are looking for a premium experience and they don't want to sacrifice flavor . So for us , the challenge is to make sure that we're in that discussion , we're in a place where people understand that there's a difference and also be able to work together with other producers who are not competitors for us their colleagues Because if we have a healthy market , everyone wins . If we're trying to take out the knees of one of our colleagues in the industry , the big players win and ultimately everybody loses .

Speaker 3 20:24

I think Actually I would say that , in terms of the product , this is since , as a chef I would say , denise , when I think on a cheese or wine there is a big market for cheese , wine , champagne , and there are like big producers . They do like mass productions , low price , so that somehow makes cheese to be like very well known , appreciated all around the world . But you can have like an awful cheese on top of a cheap pizza , but you can have the best steel tone or gorgonzola at home . And I would say that in terms of in terms of product , you can differentiate them because you are sensitive enough so you can differentiate that you are able and you are ready to pay different prices for them . But even the stories behind the product are so , so different .

Speaker 3 21:18

So when we talk about our producers or our , let's say , our partner in crime that is , henrietta Lovell , there too the work they do and we do , looking for the product , for the raw material , is something that these big brands maybe cannot do that easily .

Speaker 3 21:37

If we say that the water we use for our drink , it takes for 26 hours to go through a mountain , massive , so we can take it later on . That is pure , it has been pure for 200 years . That's something we can explain . If we go to Satenwa , if we go to Sisuoka , if we go to Sri Lanka , to the gardens from which we buy our raw materials , there are people behind eyes , names , generations , many , many things going there . But that means that if we take this to a high-end restaurant , as Aaron was saying , there should be somebody mediating in between you and the client or the customer in the end . So I would say it's not just a sensory experience , but I would say I don't know a philosophy , experience , interchange , and that's there is a very big or high value . So that's the reason why not just the alcohol , not just the product , not just the history , but but as a whole , this is a very , very different experience I think that , yeah , it's a really interesting point that the stories behind it .

Speaker 1 22:47

I find that that's's a really interesting point , that the stories behind it . I find that that's what a lot of people are really interested in now . There's a lot of those people who are coming into the , the low and low arena . Um , the , the founders , are a lot more personable . You know , we actually get to do things like this and you get to speak to people and hear about their passions and and and what drives them . And you're right , you know , when you're mass producing , that's not necessarily something that people can connect with . Um , I realize that we haven't spoken very much about the actual amas themselves .

Speaker 1 23:18

I'd love to know a little bit about the , the , the range , uh , what's , what's in them and

AMA Tea Label Design & Varieties

Speaker 1 23:25

what differentiates them . And also , I'd love to know a little bit about the design of your labels , because I think it's really really interesting for those who are watching rather than listening . Hopefully , they'll be able to see this and I will put some pictures up on the screen when editing . Oh , nice , little sunlight reflection there looking lovely . Because I think that you've done something really interesting with your labels up on the screen when editing . Oh , nice , little sunlight reflection there Looking lovely . Because I think that you've done something really interesting with your labels is that they're not sort of garishly colourful and sort of sparkling and trying to catch people's attention . They really need to be something that you pay attention to . You really need to take your time with your labels and look into them and see what it's all about . So tell me a bit about the drinks themselves and a little bit about the design .

Speaker 2 24:11

Yeah , for sure . I think you know . One thing was clear to us when we started development of the label design , the brand design , was that , although we use a lot of loan words from the wine world because ultimately we're talking to sommeliers , restaurants principally , and we have to use language that they understand we don't want to be seen as a wine alternative , we want to be seen as a complement to wine . So when we were developing the design of the labels , it was important to us that it represented our identity , that we had some of our Basque-ness . I'm not Basque , I'm clearly British , but Danny and most of the other founders and people involved in the company are basque . We wanted to have that identity is to keep our roots here as well , and so , uh , the design of the labels having that sort of quasi impossible label it's very difficult for instagram to to see so , um , was a way of separating ourselves a little bit from from the wine labeling style and champagne style , of labeling all those types of things . The art on the front the motifs are inspired by two basque artists , uh , chida and arteta . They're sculptors . If you go around the basque country , there's tons of sculptures . Um , it's kind of an inside joke , almost for the best people that come and see our visitors or see our bottles . They go . Oh , if that's . You know these guys . No , we go .

Speaker 2 25:35

Yeah , um , but it's actually a Swedish interpretation of Basque culture . So we worked with an agency called full design . They're based in Sweden . Lots of J Jorgensen and Per Anders are kind of a reference in terms of coming up with a lot of the cookbooks for Massimo Bottura or the restaurant that Daniel Ramon worked with as well . So it was kind of working with them to make a modernized interpretation of Basque culture and make a label that separates us a little bit from the wine world as well . On the back label , as you'll see , there's all the information that people need to understand what the product actually is . It's something for us that you know we're very happy with . We like separating ourselves a little bit from the wine world as well , but definitely , I think , when we talk about the varieties , they're called Bat B , uralau , bost . That is actually one , two , three , four and five in Uscara , the Basque language .

Speaker 1 26:40

Okay .

Speaker 2 26:41

So it's another route in the Basque country and something that we were talking about at the very start . How should we call this ? Because we can use the tea names and each of our neck labels has the tea that we use or the herb that we use to identify them . But it's also true that we didn't want to just identify them by the tea that we use , because it's a joining of the water , the fermentation . So we came up with this sort of bat beurrelau , because it's something that's different . People don't necessarily understand . Bat does cause a few confusions . People think why have you called it after the flappy thing or something from cricket ? But for us it's just another way of being able to sort of explain and make sure our Basque identity is also clear and present .

Speaker 2 27:27

I think the bottles you have there is Bost and Iru , if I can see behind . So Bost is a jasmine silver needle . It's made with a white tea from Fuding Fuchan in China . It's a tea that's been basically infused with the oils from fresh jasmine flowers over six consecutive nights . It's a very labor-intensive process and was actually the tea used by the emperors before Mao came to power in China . During the time of Maoism it became a tea that was more or less drunk by people in the towns where they produced it , because anything related with the old empire was not necessarily something you wanted to bring attention to . But since china's kind of reopened a bit more , it's become one of the most sought after teas , so much so that actually the market is very competitive . Um , it's to the point where , if you know the name of the farmer , you have to be very careful about who you tell the name of the farmer to , or the village he lives in or the general region he lives in , because it's possible that another tea buyer will go in and steal them out from from from underneath you . So it was an interesting story that Henrietta from from Rarity Company was telling us , and it's one of the sort of most aromatic and expressive amours that we have .

Speaker 2 28:44

You also have Eru behind you , which is a blend of two teas , a white tea and a green tea , both from Setemwa . Setemwa is a tea farm in Malawi . It used to be a tobacco plantation and then they moved to tea . I think actually they're one of the best examples of how the tea industry should be moving forwards , although they do produce bulk tea for your big conglomerates , your big tea companies that many of your viewers will have in their cupboards at home . They also have a line of speciality teas . What that allows them to do is put a much higher margin on the prices and be able to reinvest in the local communities where where they are because malawi is one of the poorest nations in africa . It's been exploited for a very long time and september is actually driving forward change in their region by making sure that they pay their workers correctly , invest in education programs , infrastructure , all those types of things , and not only so people are working for them , but also there's biomedical technicians , midwives , loads of people being educated just by people .

Speaker 2 29:53

Buying a speciality tea from Sotema and Iru is actually , I think , the one that we would say is the most recognizable to sommeliers . It's got a lot of the aromas that you would find in a white wine , so tropical fruit , stone fruit , hay , that type of thing . So for us , when we were developing the flavor profile and sort of the idea behind AMA , it was always to not try and simulate wine but give more opportunities to sommeliers and chefs and people to be able to make pairings that are interesting . There's food products which are very difficult to pair with a wine because you're limited by the raw material . With tea there's a slightly different flavor profile , and with the fermentation as well , where we open the sort of box of tricks a lot more .

Speaker 1 30:36

So tell me a little bit more about that then . So I know that food , obviously from your background , ali , gastronomy and creating amazing flavors has been a leader in what you're trying to create here In terms of having these as not wine alternatives , but pairings that can go with foods . How does that process pan out for people in terms of understanding how

New drinks, old tools & food pairing

Speaker 1 31:03

teas fermented teas go well with the foods that they normally associate with ? You know the standard associations of red wine with steak and white wine with fish . How do we make that transition ?

Speaker 3 31:15

Yeah , actually this was a very curious process because you know we were creating somehow , let's say , a new drink with new parameters , but we are using old tools to serve it . Actually , when you serve something in a cup , right , you are serving something that is , I would say , similar to wine . So what people will make automatically is to compare that to a wine , is to compare that to a wine , right , but we say to the people that , okay , is that the thing you do when you drink a sake , when you drink a beer , when you drink a sherry ? I think that your approximation to the drink should be like , with no prejudices , I would say it's very complex . Maybe people are not aware about our taste , our texture . If we should explain something similar to our drink , I would say something in between a beer , cider , but , as Aaron was suggesting , sometimes very similar to white wines with those bubbles .

Speaker 3 32:24

But if we use the word kombucha to begin explaining this , everything goes wrong , because people are expecting for something like , I would say , acidic , with no complexity . Even sometimes they add I would say , like other juices , other things to make them easier to drink . I agree with that . If you are in another moment , you want to drink something refreshing . But in this case , taking the word , you were talking about the tea . The tea somehow gives the complexity not just to the end product and to the end taste profile but to the fermentation . Because , as Aaron was suggesting in the beginning , for us the tea and the kombucha are nothing but the raw material for the second fermentation , right ? So in the beginning , for us , the tea and the kombucha are nothing but the raw material for the second fermentation , right ? So in the end of the production , you have kind of like a balanced sparkling , slightly acidic . If we compare it to a wine , a wine can be 3.4 , 3.5 pH . This is 3.12 , more or less . So it's kind of similar and it's very different when we talk about acetic or acidic , because the acids we create in this drink are not acetic acids but gluconic , glucuronic and other acids that make the drink tasty . And we were talking about the flavor and the taste . And this is the reason why we are interested in teas and all these microorganisms , because in the end of the day , you've got organic acids that make very tasty drink .

Speaker 3 33:55

If we should talk about the potential for the pairing , we have found beautiful combinations with these drinks , for example about the Iru Aaron was talking about before , iru , bat and Lau , I would say those are the most austere drinks dry , sharp , tasty , wine-like drinks . So you can eat or drink them almost with any kind of food . But I would say , if you go to something like very specific I would say like shellfish , I would say Asian sauces , curries , even dairy products , many , many things that you can pair with , even some meats are very good to pair with . So we are thinking on a drink that can be served all along the menu , right , but if we talk about bee , that we have not spoken about , that that is a Sri Lankan lemongrass and this jasmine , this we would say are more like more floral , more specific , maybe for for appetizers , for desserts or any kind of , I would say , like a fish lemony fish dish . And another area on which we are doing our trials , and maybe aaron can explain better , is in cocktail or

Cocktail creation

Speaker 3 35:23

noct areas .

Speaker 1 35:26

Oh , okay , and how's that been coming out then , aaron , in terms of cocktail creation , because everyone loves a good cocktail , right , it's that moment of decadence and treating yourself to something fancy . And then there is a lot of talk at the moment about mocktails and people thinking that they're all really just juices and people not understanding that alcohol , lower alcohol drinks don't mix the same way as full strength yeah , I think it was probably one of my favorite days I've ever had when we did a sort of cocktail development session .

Speaker 2 36:04

Um , at the very start , when we started talking about how we communicate AMA and that type of thing , we kind of steered away from cocktails because we felt that we perhaps had the risk of devaluing the product or someone taking it as kind of a mixer as opposed to being its own drink in its own right . But we realized that over time and after having experience of clients coming to us and saying , hey , we're using you in this amazing cocktail , this sparkling Negroni or French 75 , that actually there is a place for us in the cocktail space . One of the benefits we have is that we don't have too much sugar , we provide complexity , we provide acidity without adding in lemon juice or any other product , and obviously the low alcohol as well . So we kind of have the benefits of being sort of more on the spirit side in certain cases but also not having the overly sweet sort of issues that people have with mixes now . So we've never been sort of strict on how we're used in a cocktail .

Speaker 2 37:10

We're excited when people send us recipes with alcohol , without alcohol . One of my favorites is actually Bost with sake Amazing Bost Fizz . We have the recipe on our Instagram if people are interested in trying it out with a toasted rice syrup and it's amazing . It's also a really dangerous cocktail because it goes down very easily . But we've also seen we've been used in other cocktails where it's sort of a more non-alcoholic or low-alcoholic offering . Particularly in some hotels actually , especially in London , they're starting to use this as kind of an aperitif for the guests who perhaps can't take alcohol for health or religious reasons . They kind of come in and say OK , here's this cocktail which is slightly alcoholic , used to the Amma , but at the same time we're used in small proportions , OK .

Speaker 1 37:58

And so what ABVs do your Ammas brew to ? Because obviously is it six that you have in the range .

Speaker 2 38:06

Yeah , so we have five in our standard range and then limited editions . We release from time to time collaboration or or when we have a really exciting tea as well to to make some trials with . We range between 1.5 and 2.7 percent alcohol . It really depends on the nutrition that the tea gives us , and one of the things that we're doing now is actually working on understanding how to control the alcohol production even more to try and make it as consistent as possible , but at the same time we also want to balance that with our flavor-first fermentation sort of value . So this particular range is always going to be low alcoholic . That's not to say in the future we don't come up with a way of producing naturally sort of non-alcoholic hammer . So watch this space , I guess . But for us they're 1.5 to 2.7 . There's some loaves of rye bread which can get up to 1.5 percent , or bananas as well if you eat a ton of them , but it's a similar alcohol content , so you'd have to be doing really well to get drunk often .

Speaker 1 39:08

Um I believe if you mix bananas and bread into a nice banana bread loaf cake , then you know that could be it . You could be that's dangerous .

Speaker 1 39:15

Yeah , you can't drive after having that um , no , actually I think that's a that's . That's quite a sweet spot for some people , actually , because whilst a lot of people are obviously looking at this sort of low-no way of life , the majority of people who are drinking low-and-no beverages are still imbibing full-strength drinks as well and looking for occasions and times and drinks that they can have , where they can have the flavors that they like , that , that depth because , alcohol does have .

Speaker 1 39:47

If you've been a drinker beforehand , there is a depth of flavor that alcohol brings that is hard to replicate in in other ways , and so sometimes people want that depth of flavor , they want that , those notes that they , they remember that mouth feel , but they just don't want as much alcohol . And so , having something that is between the sort between the 1.5 to the 2.7 , and I think there's going to be a lot more products that come out in those ranges as well over the next couple of years it's my number one prediction that this mid-range is going to be growing a lot , even though no alcohol is leading the way in the low-no market . It's kind of plateauing and the low is growing .

Speaker 2 40:28

I think when we talk about , 80% of consumers are looking to reduce their alcohol intake , but they're not removing it entirely . They just want to drink better when they do drink and then , when they're not drinking , drink something nice . And that's where we fit in . You know there's other producers who are non-alcoholic as well , like Murray or Potivo , who are doing amazing things in the non-alcoholic space . So I think ultimately it's just giving that consumer choice out , improving that as much as possible . And also when we talk about the way the industry is changing , I think people are becoming much more sort of agnostic towards alcohol . Whether or not the product actually has alcohol or doesn't . It's becoming less and less important .

Speaker 2 41:16

Before , when we first started , there was definitely a sort of idea of hang on , you're trying to sell us this bottle for this much money and it's 1.5% . Where's the value ? No , I think over time that slowly changed , where people are starting to realize that alcohol doesn't correspond to value . You can drink white spirit , which is 90% alcohol , but you're not going to have a good time . So I think there's definitely a sort of change in consumer perception of the value of whether or not the product has alcohol in , and what they're looking for is mouthfeel , flavor balance , all those types of things .

Speaker 2 41:54

And that's an issue that the de-alcoholization industry has at the moment is that when you remove alcohol , it's a sugar , it gives a lot of body to the drink , and so how do they put body back in ? You can add some chemical products . You can add in sugar , you can add in sugar , you can add fruit juices and that sort of changes the discussion . It's no longer sort of you know , a product made in the same way that you would make , sort of a wine . No , it's much more sort of customized to try and replicate that feel , but it's much more cynical . In that sense , I would say not to say that there aren't amazing products which have some added sugars in or whatever . But at the same time , that's something that especially the de-alkalized wine space has been struggling with for a long time . The processes are much better now , but they're still really struggling to get that sort of not water flavored with grape sort of perception .

Speaker 1 42:48

Yeah , yeah , I think it's definitely an area that we're going to see a lot of not water flavored with grape sort of perception . Yeah yeah , I think it's definitely an area that we're going to see a lot of development in . I think a lot of people are passionate about that . You mentioned a couple of brands there , bativo being one and Muri being another , so I wanted to circle you

Makers Alliance

Speaker 1 43:04

back to your connection with them , because I believe they are part of the Makers Alliance which you have been founding members of . I'd love to tell the watchers and the listeners a little bit more about what is the Makers Alliance , what inspired you to found this collective and what it's going to bring to the industries .

Speaker 2 43:28

Yeah for sure . I think we've known Murray Murray from Murray for a very long time . First met him in Berlin in 2021 , I think we share quite a few distributors . We've always had a good relationship with him and he introduced us to a few other producers , like Potivo , rapscallion and those sorts of people , because I think all of us came to the same conclusion in different spaces that although we're making products that we feel are fantastic and we get a lot of amazing feedback from consumers and clients , we're still not cutting through as well as we would like to everyone , because we don't have the big budgets , the big teams being able to throw money and see what works . We have to choose each investment that we make very carefully .

Speaker 2 44:18

So the Makers Alliance started as a way of sort of making a collective that can pool resources , work together and drive our sector forwards and also start to separate ourselves from this kind of no low space that everyone exists in , which is a niche . We're kind of a niche within a niche at the moment , but we want to make sure that we're not painted with the same brush that perhaps we are at the moment or a lot of producers have painted with at the moment , which is sort of you're a health drink , you're for people who don't drink any alcohol whatsoever or those types of things . Or , as danny was saying before , if we say the word kombucha , people run away screaming when they see our price generally because they go a kombucha for 27 pounds is crazy . But we're not a kombucha really in the in the sense that people understand . So it really started as a way of reframing the argument working together , doing targeted actions , whether that be fairs events . We're probably going to be doing a few collaboration dinners and meals , one in London , hopefully fairly soon . So we'll be sure to send you an invite and , of course , any of your listeners are also welcome to come along .

Speaker 2 45:22

But for us it's something really important is to work together with our colleagues as we said before , not our competitors and drive forwards the industry as a whole . And you know Potivo are doing amazing things in sort of the aperitif , the mixer space , murray have been through a very similar journey to us , where Murray actually worked in the drinks industry before , but he saw the same hole in the market where there wasn't anything particularly complex or interesting . They have a very different concept in terms of how they produce it , all these various fermentations . It's , for us , kind of mind-blowing that they managed to make it work . We have one and we're constantly confused by it .

Speaker 2 46:01

But you know , I think this is how the industry should move forward is in a collaborative way and making sure that the education that we give out to people is actually the correct information , not sort of just you know the more cynical stuff that people sometimes put out . You know these big brands Peroni 00 and Guinness 00 . It's great and I think Guinness 00 is an example of a product that is doing really well because it tastes good , are really enjoying it , whereas I think if you went back a few years and looked at sort of non-alcohol beers and those types of things , it was sort of flavored water , which is a very different sort of proposition and actually devalues the industry as all .

Speaker 3 46:42

I don't know if danny wanted to add anything . Yeah , no , actually I would say that I think it's not a competition but a collaboration , as we said , because we think that for the people in no low alcohol consumption , it was needed to say that it is possible to be artisanal , it is possible to be like human scale production , it is possible to be , let's say , compromised . We see that there is people that are interested in doing proper things , although it means that it will take longer to be successful . But we think that it's important this pyramid to be built correctly , with some , let's say , some references , some values , because everybody is needed in there . But as a whole , this pyramid should be like painted , not just the base , not just the top , but all together .

Speaker 3 47:32

And you know , I think it's been like very beautiful experience , because I would say that we are like a mini pyramid inside of a huge pyramid that is the drink industry . And now , little by little , we are paying attention to these winemakers , or these big drink makers that are paying attention to our drinks , and they are being wow , very interesting on what's going on there . There's happening something there and it's a hot spot . They are very intense and that's there is . There's a reason behind that . So that's the reason why we began doing collaborations with winemakers . Also because , if you pay attention to alcoholic drinks , most of the big companies are doing investments , are doing alliances . They are attending this pyramid very carefully because they know that this is something that will stay . It's not going to yeah .

Speaker 1 48:30

Absolutely . I think it's something you've mentioned earlier as well working together with people rather than fighting against , when you're working towards the same goals , the same ends , and it's a reminder , isn't it , that there is space for more people . It's not just a race to the top , to be the best and to be the only one , but in fact , we need this industry as a whole to work together for it to be successful , for a lot of different people who have got something to offer .

Speaker 3 49:03

Yeah , actually , because mainly if you go to a restaurant and if you ask to a sommelier where to where to introduce our product in the drink list , or either they will get lost because they don't know where to to introduce it . Although we recommend to to introduce ama in the sparkling area , if we are more people we can do a very interesting list inside of the drink list that you've got option enough . And that's the reason why if you go to Atomics in New York or if you go to Piazza Duomo in Italy or I don't know , air Berlin in Berlin , they want to have kind of a good option or , yes , available drinks , in order for them to offer more options . So that's the meaning we need to have .

Speaker 2 49:49

I think that's been a big change for us as well is that when we started selling , a lot of the time we would be put alongside soft drinks ,

Craft Drink Industry Evolution and Collaboration

Speaker 2 49:56

so you'd sort of have maybe a more premium type of cola , fentimans or something like that , and then which is like four quid , five quid , and then you go down to Amma it'd be like 27 . So that immediately sort of takes out most of the consumers because they look at that and go , oh , it's a soft drink , it's like you know a cola . But over time we've seen more and more places start to understand , start to put us in a place where it makes more sense . And actually one of the big things for us has been seeing the more traditional restaurants , sommeliers , buyers coming to us and say , hey , I'm interested in your drink , and they try it and they go , oh , actually , that's .

Speaker 2 50:35

That's pretty good like in a kind of surprise way , where before , if we had that conversation , they just go oh it's no , it's . It's not wine , it's not a sake , it's not pre-established , no . So I think over time that industry is really changing . I think more and more sort of younger sommeliers are starting to be more interested in just having good drinks on the menu , whether that be sake , wine , beer , spirits , whatever . What they're looking for is complexity , good tasting things , and so that means that also the industry as a whole changes . But definitely , I think when danny was talking about sort of the pedagogy , how we explain it and how we can work together with other producers to create a new language , that's something that's hugely important for us .

Speaker 1 51:38

What it is you're talking about is educating people on what the products are , why they exist , how they exist and how you can use them , so that they're not just this you know unknown thing over there with fancy words that they can't understand . Do you have any plans , because I noticed that you know you talk a lot about sommeliers . You talk a lot about the fine dining , a lot about the restaurant side of things . Is there much in the works and the way of getting this into more consumers' hands in terms of people being able to just buy , perhaps one day for themselves , to go and try ? Is the dream to be on the supermarket shelves or are you sticking to more of the on-trade route to market ?

Speaker 2 52:26

Yeah , for sure . We are in quite a few retail locations around the world . So in the uk we're in selfridges . Um , maybe we'll be in harrods soon see fingers crossed um , watch this space .

Speaker 2 52:40

But you know , ultimately , because we're a very novel product , it can be more complex to get sort of into the retail space , and also in terms of because we have a small batch production system here where it's sort of 250 bottles , 270 bottles per tank . Ultimately we're not getting to the volumes where a big retailer is going to be necessarily interested . That's not to say that we haven't had some interest and we're in some conversations right now . And then we're also working on another project , which hopefully we'll be able to announce further on in the year , which may be more retail oriented . We'll have to sort of wait and see and when it's ready we'll be sure to let people know .

Speaker 2 53:22

But that's another thing that we've realized is that although we're constructing this pyramid with people like Botivo Mori , rapscallion , lockcallion , lockdown liquor , there's still sort of a hole in the market . There's still a sort of space which people aren't taking advantage of , um , and one that we feel is very important for the health of the market as whole and the health of the pyramid as whole . So that's something that we're working on right now and hopefully we'll have something exciting to show very soon .

Speaker 1 53:49

Okay , all right . Well , I'm intrigued , so I should be checking my emails regularly for any updates . Fantastic Listen , chaps . It's been amazing . I'm going to let you go in just a moment . I have just two final questions for you . One is one which I ask um everybody who comes on , because , whilst , um , I appreciate

Danny & Aaron at the BBQ

Speaker 1 54:12

that your intention wasn't to necessarily create a low no drink , what you have created is something that can be enjoyed by people who are looking at living a life in less intoxicated for any reason for any length of time . Um , so for yourselves , um , let's imagine it's not raining . You told me before we recorded that it's raining over there , but imagine it's not raining and you're on your way to a lovely Basque barbecue and you're bringing some drinks along for people to enjoy . What other Lono products would you normally enjoy for yourselves other than your amazing ammers , of course ?

Speaker 2 54:49

Well , I think you know it's a bit cheesy , but obviously the Murray Botivo Lockdown Liquor they're great products . We wouldn't work with them if we weren't sort of fans of them . There's also Real Drinks in the UK we're friends with . They actually went through a very similar journey to us in terms of how they understood market and started off in gastronomy , and I think they're doing some really interesting things . Um , there's a producer called akala in lithuania who we've had a relationship now with a few years and they're doing some very interesting things using herbs and flowers and lots of wonderful things , which I think is right now more limited to Lithuania , but they're slowly opening up into the market .

Speaker 2 55:36

Then , if we look stateside , there's people like Proxies or Unified Ferments . Unified Ferments we'd love to try but we've got no way of getting bottles to us . So next time we're in New York we'll try and do it . But there's definitely a few players in the market that we look at and say the way they're communicating their drink , the way they're working towards making something that's complex and gastronomic or just good to drink , is something that we're we're very sort of interested in and hopefully , if we've not tried them by now , we'd like to try in the future as well . So I think there's there's definitely sort of a very positive movement and there's definitely quite a few producers who are doing great things and we're happy to start sort of making that little community as well amazing , amazing we need all of them .

Speaker 3 56:24

So you know it's , we taste them regularly and actually they are doing great things . And to have good competitors somehow establishes the level on which we should work .

Speaker 1 56:35

That's it . You want good competition , don't you ? Because then that just makes you raise your game , and everybody's striving to be better all the time . Great competition is a good thing .

Speaker 2 56:44

Yeah , exactly .

Speaker 1 56:48

There is so much more that we haven't covered , but I don't want to take your whole day . So if people want to know more about

Where to find Ama Brewery

Speaker 1 56:55

you and what you're doing and where to get your Amas , where do you want to send people to find out more about you guys ?

Speaker 2 57:02

So we have the website amabrewerycom . Unfortunately , we're limited to only be able to sell online in Spain , but we have a list of our distributors on our web shop as well , so people can find where , locally , they can get their hands on bottles . Then also our socials at Amma Brewery Basque with underscores in between Amma and the Basque and yeah , contact us by email as well . Get in touch , come visit us if you're in the Basque country , all those types of things . We love talking to people , we love explaining our drink and sort of answering any doubts that they might have , and we're always interested as well to see what people are doing with our drinks once they have them . So you know , people tagging us in their dinners they're having with friends or whatever is super interesting to us as well .

Speaker 3 57:46

It gives us a sort yeah , and actually I would say that inside of the , let's say , maker Alliance collaboration , maybe this year there will be kind of a Maker's Alliance tour somehow . So some things will happen , maybe in London , berlin , italy , so in Paris , maybe we'll try to keep you informed .

Speaker 2 58:07

Yeah , definitely . I think there's definitely going to be an event in August in London , sort of a craft beer fair which the Makers Alliance are invading a little bit , hopefully , once we're close to getting confirmed on that . So hopefully we'll be able to let people know and absolutely keep your eyes out for Berlin , I think , milan , probably Paris , all the cool places . We'll definitely be doing something interesting very soon .

Speaker 1 58:32

I love this . I love that there's such an international coming together . I'm currently working on the next issue of the magazine and , inspired by the Eurovision Song Contest , I've got some people from different parts of the world writing about their experiences of what , you know , low-no living is like there . So I'm really excited that you're talking about all these different places and bringing it together we won't be singing , oh , come on listen .

Speaker 1 59:01

I will make sure that all of those links are in the show notes and the descriptions for everyone so that they can go and check you out and find out where to buy online , either in the uk or anywhere else , and make sure that they go . If they're in town , they can pop into selfridges and have a little peruse of the different um bottles on the shelves there . Thank you so much . Uh , danny and aaron , really really , uh , interesting conversation .

Speaker 1 59:26

I had more questions , so maybe I'll have to get you back another time to go over those ones , but for now , keep up the amazing , amazing work that you are doing and I think that I love your approach . I love , first and foremost , that it's flavor first and that you are about bringing great flavor experiences to the palate that people can enjoy in adult circumstances , adult situations , and have a fantastic you know , lovely , high-end meal and celebrate a wonderful occasion and have a wonderful drink to go with it and not feel like you're missing out on anything just because you're not going to have a hangover in the morning . So well done , guys . Thank you very much for joining me today thank you very much for joining me today .

Speaker 3 1:00:09

Thank you very much . Thank you , thank you .