Meeting Carl

Speaker 1 1:12

Hey , hey , lono Nation and welcome to this week's episode of the Lono Drinker podcast . Today I am chatting with the lovely Carl Antony Brown . Carl is the founder of Crossip Drinks , a range of unapologetically bold alcohol-free spirits . Carl and the Crossip team face the Lono market with something that I think a lot of people would emulate , and that is an unshakable sense of self . They know who they are , they know what they stand for and they shout it from the rooftops . So I'm really excited to get to know Carl and a bit about his journey and the brand and what they are working towards within the non-alc space . So let's jump straight in and say hello to Mr Carl Anthony Brown . Hey , carl , how are you doing ?

Speaker 2 1:59

Hello , I'm very well , thank you Yourself , you good .

Speaker 1 2:03

I'm okay , I'm okay . Thank you very much for asking . A little bit tired , but aren't we all ?

Speaker 2 2:09

It's Friday . It's Friday , let's bring it on . To be fair , though , I work in Hosto , so Friday is not really Friday .

Speaker 1 2:16

It doesn't mean anything . I remember when I was working , we used to say we don't have a weekend , we just have late nights .

Speaker 2 2:22

That's it . Everyone's like , oh , the weekend's coming up and I'm like no , no , that's on Tuesday . Yeah , what are you talking about ?

Speaker 1 2:32

Your weekend means I'm working extra hard to make sure you have a good time .

Speaker 2 2:35

So , yeah , let's go party . I'm quite lucky , I've got an amazing assistant called Lily we make everything . And so I was like right , so I'll see you on Friday for production . And she was like no , it's bank holiday . And I was like , yes , yes , it is . She's like I won't see you . And I was like , okay , yes , it is , she's like I won't see you . And I was like , okay , so on Monday we'll get on with this . And she's like no , that's also bank holiday . I'm like do you mind doing me a favour , lil ? And she was like what's that ? Can you just message me so I don't get in the car and go to work ?

Speaker 1 3:12

That's it , because those bank holidays they don't mean anything , do they ? They just mean like more hours . If you're lucky , time and a half , oh well , I'm appreciative of you being here . We were talking before that . Obviously , bank holiday plans for many people are scuppered with the wonderful British springtime that we're having .

Speaker 1 3:32

I've just had to send my husband out with the kids so that we can have some peace in the house , and I said you know , why don't you go to the cinema or something ? He's like , oh , there's nothing on , the swimming is closed . I was like , well , you're going to have to go walk in the rain . I win many parenting awards , don't worry . So thank you for joining me today . I want to get to know more about you , more about cross it . I want to talk about the range , um , but first of all , I'd like to start by you sharing with our listeners and watchers a little bit about your own story , starting from where you feel comfortable . Obviously , we share a hospitality background and I'm particularly intrigued by the fact that I understand you . You started off on this cross-rip journey while you're still slinging cocktails over the bar and you're elsewhere trying to create this non-alcoholic spirit . So take me back to where you want to start . What was your journey that led you here ?

Speaker 2 4:30

I mean realistically a silly . Silly though I mean I won't go through all of it because it'd be mental , we'd be here for hours . But I do actually have to go literally back to the start of hospitality because I was marched by my . My mum , who is an absolute wonder , marched me in on my 18th birthday into a bar in a place called Beresdenmans , a bar called Benson Blakes , and , and that was that was Tim's bar bar , who is my co-founder of Crossit . Um , he was , he grew up in bars and so by the time he was 23 , he owned a bar . So there's only a few years between us , um , but yeah , I . So I got marched in and my mum's like he needs a job , he's 18 now , can he work in the bar ? And Tim was like , yes , he can work on my bar . Um , and that's where me and Tim first met um , and so he . You know we worked together .

Speaker 2 5:22

Well , I worked for him , he was my boss for a few years and then I went off and did lots of other things . I played a lot of rugby , um traveled to New Zealand to play some rugby , which was good fun , and I went to university and I was continuously bartending all through this and everything sort of started off by Tim and we just became like best friends . We just got on really well and you know , we would sort of always be there for each other . And then I slowly I finished uni and decided , well , that was a waste of time and money because and money because I'm never going to use this , I'm just not interested in it whatsoever . But I really love the bartending I've done to pay my way through it and I was quite good and I worked for a few different bars . I became the head bartender of the Ward of Astoria , which was fantastic and really got stuck in in the in the drinks industry we loved the . I mean , when I was bartending it was still the , the age of flaring um , you know , I can't , if I try and balance a bottle it's just gonna go wrong , shocking . But I was very quick , um , and I and I had a really good palate , um , and then I worked my way up and I ended up working for for deschamps , um , and I became the sort of bars manager , the drinks developer for the whole group and and , like right at the start , um , and created all their , all their drinks and and it was quite eye-opening for me .

Speaker 2 6:56

You know I'm a rugby player . I can't , you know , I won't lie to you and say I'm sober , I'm just not . I really enjoy the flavor of alcohol , I really enjoy it . I don't drink to excess , really , it's just never been my thing . But a rugby player I was always , you know , drank a lot . Then when I moved to shum I suddenly realized that well , actually 50 of their clients held don't drink um and and I was there going . So people like how can we have something non-alcoholic ? And at that time there wasn't really um many non-alcoholic beers . I think they , you know it was still the traditional . You know that one weird bottle of becks blue that was always found in the back of a fridge and I'm like can't can't do this and they were like , oh , we need some , we need to put some drinks out .

Speaker 2 7:42

And um , and I was like , and I had a look and I was like , okay , well , let's go for the you know traditional I don't know . You start at shirley temple and then you , and then you progress to mixing orange juice with pineapple juice , with some grenadine in the bottom , and you're like wow , and I and I just it made me shudder , absolutely shudder inside . And these people are asking me for mocktails and I'm like god , I hate that word , I'm like but the whole point , as far as I'm concerned , there's no definition that you're rich , but there's no , there's no hard rule that says you have to have alcohol to make it a cocktail . Surely , it's a mix of ingredients that incites an amazing flavour . Yeah , so I got fed up . So I ended up like , right , I need to work something out . So I decided to develop non-alcoholic cocktails that made me feel like this is an adult's drink and won a number of awards for that . And won a number of awards for that , you know , won best drinks menu for restaurant group , and then , you know , best non-alcoholics menu and a few other things . It was fantastic . I was like , okay , this is really inspiring .

Speaker 2 8:48

And one of the things I started working on there was I needed to make the flavor of these drinks more adult . So it wasn't like , oh , I need to copy gin or anything like that . How do I make a fake whiskey ? No , I need to work out what makes it more adult . What makes it more adult , what makes it more mature . Um , you know what's going to change that mentality from this is a bunch of juice put together to this is a fantastic dream , um , and yeah . So I started working on that there , um , and sort of worked on these couple of different essence flavors and things like that , through different wear , variations , extraction , um and uh , and I came up with something that was okay if you were an absolute genius bartender , um , right . Otherwise , awful , awful , unusable and pretty dangerous , if I'm honest , like it's just not good for you . And I was like , okay , I ended up leaving Deschamps and I travelled around the world a bit doing some bartending and working for a few different companies and I became the ambassador for Woodford Reserve , which is one of my favourite whiskies , and then , when I was there , I just like you know what I need to .

Speaker 2 10:22

It's time I do something for myself , um , and see what I can come up with . I've been working on this idea . It's always been there . I've been working like for ages and ages ,

Bar loss to Crossip creation

Speaker 2 10:32

um , and then , yeah , so I ended up setting up my own bar , which was great . I had three months of absolute bar bliss and I was like , wow , I love this . I'm so happy I finally got my own bar . And then someone decided to announce that it was COVID and I was like , oh , there goes my dream bar . That was quick . That was quick , um , so I was , you know , one of those . You know , many , many , uh , you know the hospitality businesses that die in their first year , uh , although mine had a decent excuse . So I was like , ah well , this is , this is sort of wrong it really was out of your hands .

Speaker 1 11:10

There's nothing you could have done about that I was literally .

Speaker 2 11:12

I was like well , that , that's that . And then I basically I've been working at Ages and I'd been pestering Tim , so I was like continuously I was like , look , I think this is a thing , right . And he was like and he was just my continuous sounding board . So I was like this is a thing .

Speaker 2 11:32

And he's like yeah but literally no one can use that . It needs to be more usable . So I'd like go away and go right , how do I make this more usable ? And um , and then eventually , um , uh , so I got to a point where I'd sort of created cross it , um , I created its three founding flavors and I'd sort of managed to get there . Um , and I can tell you the story of how I create those whenever , whenever you want , but you know I'll ramble on you . You just cut me off whenever you want .

Speaker 1 11:58

You keep going , you keep going .

Speaker 2 12:01

And so I did that . And then a friend of a friend came in and he is from an investment background and I was like , look , the bar's closing down . You know this is happening . I've got an idea , but I don bars closing down , you know this is happening . Um , I've got an idea , but I don't know how to turn this into a business . You know , can you ? You know , do you fancy coming down and and and just giving me a few pointers , um , and he was like , yeah , yeah , I'll come down .

Speaker 2 12:30

And uh , he came in and I served him some drinks . I hadn't told him that they were non-alcoholic , okay , and I served him some drinks and I was like , so you know , I was like , how does it go ? Basically , I think the stuff that makes these , I think , is an idea . I'd like to do it . And he goes . You know what ? That one was really nice . This one was interesting and nice .

Speaker 2 13:01

That one there was a bit too boozy for me and I was like , oh , that's cool . Uh , that works really well . Then he was like why is that ? Because none of them are like boozing it . And he was like , what , um ? And then , yeah , and he was like okay , well , um , I'll phone you on . I'll phone you on monday , um , so we can catch up . And I was like sure , okay , I was like that , that conversation was a bit , you know . And on monday it was like , yeah , I'm in , so let's do it . And I was like what , let's , let's make that a business . It was superb , I was like sure . So I was like tim , by the way , you're actually signed up now and he's like , really , he's like , but I've got a nice , sensible job . I'm like , yeah , but this will be more fun . Um , and now it's four years on , um , and we're still going . It's hard work . I make the liquid all myself still , so , yeah , so it's pretty crazy . And four years into CrossFit .

Speaker 1 13:49

That is brilliant . That is brilliant . Yeah , I mean , look , the fact that you started this bar must have been a really exciting time . I am ex-hospital and I know the joys and the fun , and if you have in your own space , you're like I am the king of the freaking castle now .

Speaker 2 14:05

That's it . And then you're like ah shit , castle's closed and I can put this on my shelf and I can put this on my shelf and no manager is going to come and tell me no .

Speaker 1 14:15

Yeah , I'm like aha on my shelf and no manager is going to come and tell me no , yeah , but you know what . You made something from it , and that's , that's absolutely amazing . You know , because you can , you could sit back and just go . It's all gone wrong , I've lost this money , I've lost this space . You know , my dream is gone , or you can then pull yourself up by the bootstraps and go right , we've got to crack on with it . I was similar . I was made redundant during COVID . I was on maternity leave with my second . I didn't know , I liked to do that yeah , yeah , and that was it .

Speaker 1 14:47

And I never went back because I was made redundant halfway through and it was like , oh , okay , I guess we'll find something else to do then . So you know , I think that sometimes these things happen for a reason , right ? Because look at you now .

Speaker 2 15:01

Yes , no , yeah , it was wonderful . I mean , it was an odd time For the whole of COVID . I was making all-batch bottle cocktails and I put them in pouches and was cycling around uh london delivering them okay um , and I must have covered , I think I remember what it was it was like . I think it was like 7 000 , 8 000 kilometers um , in like the space of three months , just delivering these cocktails to keep stuff afloat do you know what ?

Speaker 1 16:04

I think there's a . There's a a theme that runs through some of the founders that I've spoken with , because there's another lady who's the founder of la brewery the alcohol-free kombucha . She did the same . She was working in hospitality and in between she was on her bicycle delivering her , her product to places wherever she can get it sold . So you've got to do this right . When you are starting your own business and you want to get it out there , you gotta just get the sweat on .

Speaker 2 16:30

I mean , there's only one easy road to starting a business , and that's already having the money not to need to start a business . So yeah , um , so not many people are in that position , no , so otherwise you've got to do everything and you've got to be on it all the time so tell me a bit more about the liquid things you said .

Speaker 1 16:48

You could tell me a bit more about the fact . I love the fact that you are

The creation process

Speaker 1 16:52

still there , hands in you know elbow deep .

Speaker 2 16:56

Realistically . They my co-founders and my team . They don't want me in front of anybody anyway . They're like no , no , just put him back in his shed um , it's not saying to let him out , can't let him out in public .

Speaker 2 17:08

Um , but , uh , yeah , so it was . It's an interesting journey . So I , um , I , I , as I said , I hate the idea of mocktail . I think a cocktail should be a mixed beverage , that is . You know , it doesn't matter . You know , by saying this is alcoholic or not alcoholic in any term , whether it be spirit , mixer , beer , wine , whatever , you're suggesting that the end goal is to be pissed , which is ridiculous . No , it's not . The end goal is to go . This tastes fantastic , this suits my palate . I really enjoy this .

Speaker 2 17:46

Now , if you end up being a bit tipsy because you've had too much booze , fine , that happens . Like , like you know , fine , that's okay . But your , your goal shouldn't be I'm going out to be x ? Uh , that's not my thing , that's never been my thing . Um , so , so I was like okay , you know , I want , I want to start this drink . I want to start working out what I'm going to do . Um , and then I was like well , you know , what do I need to create ? And I was like , okay , I want to start this drink , I want to start working out what I'm going to do . And then I was like , well , what do I need to create . And I'm like do you know what ? And at no point did I go I need to make a fake gin , I need to make a fake whiskey . At no point did that even pop into my head . So maybe that was stupidity , but yeah , at no point did that pop into my head .

Speaker 2 18:25

What popped into my head was I create um , spirit mixes and cocktails 24 7 as a bar job , and I have done for 20 years um , and and I create a finished drink . You know no one . Well , very rarely , but realistically , no one comes into a bar and goes . Can I have a glass of gin , please ? No one does that . They come in and go . Can I have a gin tea ? Or can I have a cosmopolitan , have a gin fizz ? You know they ask for a finished beverage .

Speaker 2 18:55

So I started thinking through creating this non-alcoholic spirit , obviously called Crossit , from the idea of going . I know all these finished drinks , what do I need at this finished point ? You know , to make it , to get it there if it's got no booze in it . So I was like , instead of going , I'm making this singular spirit that to to make some cocktails or make a spirit mixer . I was like I want to make these hundreds of thousands of drinks . What do I need to add into it to to get there ? So , um , I actually locked myself in a dark room , um , with a notebook and a pen , and I got absolutely hammered . I mean I won't lie , I mean I was was a wreck , because I basically sat there with a bottle of vodka and a bottle of gin and a bottle of whiskey and a bottle of rum and I was just doing little sips .

Speaker 1 19:50

Right .

Speaker 2 19:51

And every time I took a sip of something , I'd focus on one spirit . You know I was only doing one a day-ish , but I'd take a little sip and I'd be like , ok , what happened ? And sometimes I'd write down a note like , oh , it was a fiery burn at the front of my tongue . Sometimes I'd be like , oh , actually I've got loads of vanilla off that . You know , I just write everything down . I was like , oh , it flushed my cheeks . Oh , it made my ears go warm , oh , it made me warm in my throat or hot in my chest . Or I wrote everything down that was happening to me and and I was like , okay , well , let's , let's go through each of these spirits . Okay , let's go through some of these beers I had , some of these wines I had and other drinks and these mixed cocktails I'd made myself as I came all these notes , I was like , well , that one is happens to be in every single thing .

Speaker 2 20:39

It's like , oh , that flavor happens in every single one and that like effect happens in every single one . I was writing them down , okay , and I got a massive like sheet of of things that would happen and I'm like , okay , well , I need to recreate these things that happen to be able to add to a liquid to make me , to make me and other people go , ah , that's boozy , even though it's not . You know , I didn't , uh , and I'm sure you can guess , I didn't create a non-alcoholic spirit from the point of view , um , and

Not made for sober people

Speaker 2 21:14

you know , dedicated to people that want to be sober or are sober , um , I did it for people that aren't . I did it for people that drink um , to manage , so that you can enjoy those mature flavors but not have the the detrimental side , um , so , so I went through that . You know , if , if people that are sober love it , I love that , I love that they love it , um , I love that , I love that they love it , and that's great . But I created it to start off with to go no , no , everyone should have the option as to when you want to drink or not drink alcohol and still have the benefits of incredible flavour , because that's what it should be about .

Speaker 2 21:58

So I wrote all these flavourings down and then I sort of set about working out how do I recreate them . So I found spices , botanicals , some herbs , um , you know , all of these different items to sort of uh , that would do those effects , that would create those effects . I read lots of um like uh , herbal medicine books and things like that . I was like , oh , they say this does this and that does that . Okay , well , let's try that . And I slowly worked out a way to extract it . So I use water and glycerin , so vegetable glycerin , which is great , it has some similar properties to alcohol in terms of how it absorbs flavour . I was like , okay , okay , well , this kind of works um . And then , just through my years of bartending , um , and being one of those bartenders that's a bit , you know , over the top , you know , sitting there with my sous v's and my like you know things like that I'm like , oh , I've got a fancy piece of kit . Yeah , get carried away .

Speaker 2 22:56

Um so , uh , I know you guys oh so well the bartenders who are actually good , who just pick up a bottle and you know , this tastes amazing . And then there's people like me . It's like , well , I've got a pet .

Speaker 1 23:08

So yeah , I had many bar managers like that right , can we buy this bit of equipment and then can we get this ? And then what we'll do is we'll take it to the table and then we'll smoke it in front of them , exactly .

Speaker 2 23:24

I was unfortunately one of those people , but completely aware that I was an absolute wanker , as long as you know , that's fine . And so I just so I , because of learning all these techniques and and years in drinks industry , I was like , okay , worked out how to extract this , so I created this essence and I called it spirit essence , um . And I was like , okay , worked out how to extract this , so I created this essence and I called it spirit essence , um . And I was like here you go , tim , taste this . Uh , and he , he had it and he was like , oh , my god , that's fucking disgusting .

Speaker 2 23:50

I was like , what the hell have you done ? I was like , well , now mix it with like orange juice . And he was like portly ale juice . And he was like , oh , that's really quite good . Uh , I was like that does all these , you know . He's like that's really interesting . Good , I was like that does all these , you know . He was like that's really interesting . I was like , yeah , so it has to be mixed . And then he was like we can't , we can't , that's not a thing . He was like to get to have this essence one , it's really hard to make and two , to give that to someone you know someone at home or whatever . It's just unviable . It's like someone coming up to you with just the raw ingredients to like , you know , to Coke , and you're going .

Speaker 1 24:30

Great thanks , but no it will be a bottle of Coke . If you've just got to do this , just pop your pot , yeah .

Speaker 2 24:34

Yeah , yeah . And so I was like , okay , cool . So I sort of thought through the liquid a little bit further and I kind of realized that when you know , from my point of view of working from the finished drink backwards , when you

Flavour profiles

Speaker 2 24:53

really look at it and you really think about it , you can break them down in a much easier way into sort of base flavor profiles , down in a much easier way into sort of base flavor profiles . Um , so if you think about , uh , most of your white spirits , um , you go actually almost if , whether I'm mixing it with a spirit , like whether I'm doing the white spirit with uh , with a mixer , or whether I'm turning it into a cocktail , most of those white spirit drinks , you'll add citrus to it . So I was like , whether you know whether that be a peel , whether that be a squeeze of lime , whether that's , you know , actual load of juice , you'll always add some kind of citrus . So I was like , ok , well , I'll take my spirit essence and I'll mix one and I'll blend it with some citruses to make it into a citrus flavoured spirit , to make it into a citrus-flavoured spirit . So again , I hadn't even thought about replicating a spirit and making it non-alcoholic , I was just thinking about purely flavour . And I was like , okay , let's make one that's a citrusy flavoured , because I know that if I have a citrusy flavored mature adult drink , you can mix that thing with lots of other stuff or just with a mixer and it will turn out similar to one of these white spirit style drinks .

Speaker 2 26:13

Now I was like , okay , well , you know what about those people that , like you know dark spirits or you know , you know that smokier , richer , bolder , meatier flavour . It's like , okay , sweet , let's work on that . So I ended up mixing it with smoke and pine and all these woody effects and cinnamon and clove , and I was like , okay , and I made a smoky flavour . And then the last one I was like , okay , well , you know what about ? If you , summer , you want a nice long drink , or maybe you're a bit of a martini drinker or what are you gonna ? What's the sort of overriding core of that ? And I was like , okay , well , realistically it's sort of you know it's , it's bitter , so it's bitters , or vermouth , or you know something like that . So I was like , okay , well , let's make this sort of herbal , medicinal , bitter flavor , uh , and I end up with the three um that are right behind you , which is amazing . Yeah , so I end up with Dandy Smoke , fresh Citrus and Pure Hibiscus . We've got the Dandy .

Speaker 1 27:09

Yeah , that's the Dandy , and you've recently redesigned these bottles , haven't ?

Speaker 2 27:12

you , I have to make them really pretty . They are beautiful .

Speaker 1 27:15

They are absolutely stunning . I would definitely have these on a back bar . You could just see them and they're so easy to find and they just stand out .

Speaker 2 27:25

You know , as you said earlier , our motto is unapologetically bold . So the labels are like we're going big on this as bright as we can because we loved it . But yeah , we sort of it's , you know , recycled glass , recycled lid . You know so we want . We sort of um it's , you know , recycled glass , recycled lid , you know so we want to sort of be a little bit more holistic on that front and then also just make them look beautiful .

Speaker 1 27:48

Um , they really do , and they taste amazing as well . So I am I'm gonna ask you if you have uh a favorite , but I don't know if that's like asking somebody if they have a like a favorite child .

Speaker 2 28:01

Um and they're not allowed to say favorite child .

Speaker 1 28:03

Again , I'm not allowed to say uh to be honest , it just depends on which one's annoying me the least at that given moment , and I think any parent out there would agree um but yeah , I , because I I got them and I was really excited . I was like , oh , let me give these a try . And then I tasted the , the first one , and I'm I admit I'm not a bitter fan , I'm not a big fan of- so .

Speaker 1 28:26

I , I tried that and I was like , actually it's not overly bitter , because I I can't . My husband's favorite drink is a Negroni and to me I'm like that's just evil in a glass . And um , and I tried that one and I was like , actually , you know it's it's , it's got that bitterness , it's got that dryness , but it's balanced , it's not overpoweringly so . And then I tried the citrus . I was like , oh my god , that's amazing yeah , this is my favorite . And then I tried . The dandy knocked it out the park there , mate , didn't you ?

Speaker 2 29:00

thanks , I uh , yeah , I don't have a favorite um , because , because I crafted them , um in a way to to be used at the right time in the right place , um , and that's how I've , oh , that's also how I drink , uh , just in in life . So , you know , I , I don't , if I walk into a bar and they've only got bad quality spirits , beers , that I don't like , things like that , I , I don't , I won't , uh , I won't drink , I won't . You know , as in like , I won't force myself . I've never gone . Well , I'm tonight , so I've got to get on it . And then I'm like , you know , I'll force that fosters down . No , I just won't .

Speaker 2 29:47

It's just , that's not who I am and I , when I created these , it was very much of like , well , you know , I feel like a , I feel like an old fashioned . So , oh , you know , so it's the right time , right place , depending on which one I have , yeah , I would say I probably drink the fresh the most . Okay , because I really like tonic water . Fresh works amazing with tonic water and it's just really refreshing . So I'm like , oh , this , is great and soda .

Speaker 2 30:19

I had it in soda and it's just really refreshing . So I'm like , oh , this is great .

Speaker 1 30:21

So I had it in soda and it's just made a beautiful , simple , long drink and it was just really nice and and and I agree with you you know the right time , the right place , just having that right drink . I love what you said about , um , not forcing the issue when it comes to going out and not something that you're going to enjoy . It's not a case of , oh god , all right , well , I'll just have . I'll just have one of those then . Oh , this tastes like crap , but I'll drink it anyway . Because I try to think back to how many times I have drunk drinks that I didn't want to drink just because there was no other option or just because it was the done thing . Um , I really like your message , car , about the fact that you say openly again about being unapologetically who you are

Tasting alcohol-free drinks

Speaker 1 31:03

I'm not sober , I'm not making these drinks for sober people . This isn't about turning everyone to onto an alcohol-free lifestyle . This is about creating , uh , an amazing adult drinking experience for people who want those moments . Yeah , for whatever their reasons are exactly , exactly .

Speaker 2 31:22

I mean like you know , then one , you know , one thing that always struck me was , you know you can go , orange juice tastes like orange juice , right , but no one ever goes . Wine tastes like wine , you go , oh , it's got this lovely floral note , it's got a bitterness coming through . I can taste , you know , grass , I can . I , I can get hit , get some minerals coming through . You you describe an alcoholic beverage in a different way and everything that was put out there at you know , when I was creating cross it , well , most things that were put out there , you would go this tastes like orange or this tastes like pineapple . You're like , great , like we need more depth . You know , we're adults , our palates have evolved . Whether they've evolved because you drink alcohol , whether they have evolved because you love pickled food , you know , whatever it is , as you get older , your palate evolves and you want depth and texture and you want , you know you need some more involvement other than haribo um , and , and so I was , so for me that you know that was really important . So I was like , you know , it doesn't matter if you're a drinker or not a drinker , you want to have a depth of flavor . I think I realized in myself as well that I probably ended up drinking um , not anymore because I've created cross it , but um . But I probably at that time I'm bartending and you know , you know yourself , that it's very easy to drink too much . It's very easy to be , you know , it's available and realistically , you don't get paid very much and you're like , well , but I get a few free drinks , I'm just going to enjoy it . And then all my mates working in that bar , so I'll go and have a few more free drinks , and you know , because that's you haven't got enough money to go and do other things . So you're like , well , I enjoy this . And I realized actually I was making a choice to drink more , not because I wanted to be more , because I found the flavors of those things more interesting , um , so as soon as , as soon as people started adventuring outside the box and going well , I'm going to make something non-alcoholic but interesting . You know , um , kombucha was a big one for me . You know , this is a really interesting beverage that's non-alcoholic . Suddenly I was like oh , you know what , I don't need to go , I don't need to have a beer right now . I can have X , y and Z . You know , and I've always been able to make things like that because of where my skills lie . But there's a point where you're at home , you're like , actually I fancy a drink and it's much easier to grab , like a Corona , out of the fridge than it is for me to go right . So I need 25 mils of ginger , I need extract of you know gentian , I need , and then blend up yourself and then strain it off and then you're like I'm just gonna grab that bowl , um , so to try and combine those into something was really important . It was like , okay , this is great , um , and then , obviously because of the drinks background for myself , I made it really strong .

Speaker 2 34:34

I was like , if someone comes to me in a bar with a spirit , there's so many years of what you understand , of spirits and things behind you that someone goes , oh , would you like to try my new spirit ? Maybe you want it in your bar ? You go , okay , fine , and you go , you know , and you , just your brain doesn't think how do I serve this ? Your brain goes right , we serve that in about 25 mils , cool , right . So you know what a shot size is .

Speaker 2 35:05

And when I was creating cross hip , you know there was a couple out on the market already of non-alcoholic spirits , from a very different background . They were going for that replica point of view but it was like oh , you need to put 50 or 70 mils in . That's not natural to a person who is used to a spirit . Where you go 25 mils . So I decided to make Crosship that strong . Where you go 25 mils , so I decided to make cross it um that strong , yeah . So I was like you need to put 25 mils in and then , if you want to make it stronger , you can choose to add more . But the base has to be like bang um , which is always fun . When someone goes oh , you know , so I get these people , you know . You can imagine they're like oh , have you made another one of those watery non-alcoholic spirit things ? That's gonna be roach . I yeah yeah , I've done that .

Speaker 2 35:50

Why don't you have a shot of straight pure and then just watch their face go ? I'm like strong , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 35:57

Yeah , I can attest to that , because I like to taste things in their natural form before I mix them with anything , and I did that . And I made those faces .

Speaker 2 36:10

And , and I made those faces and I was like wowzers . Now imagine being me . I do that every single week , every single day , because I've got to check everything , every batch that comes on , of course , of course .

Speaker 1 36:18

Oh my goodness . Yeah , I think you've hit on a really interesting bit there about people making things at home .

Speaker 1 36:25

That was one of the things I wanted to ask you . So , as I've mentioned , I have a bar background as well , so I bartended and then moved into management ,

Making cocktails at home

Speaker 1 36:34

and then I moved into events , and so the amount of time I spent making cocktails reduced , you know , over time , and I stepped away from it and , as much fun as it was , I then became the person who just liked having other people make things for me . I just want to sit back and you just give me something that tastes wonderful . Great job .

Speaker 1 36:51

And so I'm thinking about people who are at home who don't have the level of experience that you or even I have in terms of making drinks about knowing how to balance drinks , yeah , but want to have something adult , something with depth , something with layers of flavor and something with different profiles . Can you give us some uh , some tips on the best ways that we can enjoy ?

Speaker 2 37:22

obviously cross it , yeah , but also that home experience for people who are looking to drink less but want to enjoy more yep , yeah , uh , I mean , one thing you can do , you know , is go out , buy a bottle of cross it um , and then on the back of the bottle there's a qr code , um , and you can scan that and I put up thousands of recipes online . So , just as a , you know , it's normally you know me , tim , and some of the other amazing people in our team who were like , oh , come up with this recipe , then we put it online .

Speaker 2 37:54

So there's an easy way like that yeah , um , but start off with I mean , first things first , obviously , use flavors that you enjoy . That's always a good start . Um , I always stick to that old school . Um , if I'm going to do a mixed drink , like a proper sort of cocktail , start I always stick to that old school . If I'm going to do a mixed drink , like a proper sort of cocktail , start , I always stick to the old school rum rhyme , you know .

Speaker 2 38:16

So it's one for sweet , two for sour , three for strong , four for weak . That always works fantastically . It makes life a lot easier , especially if you're doing for a big group party or something . So it's like you go one unless you . Easier , especially if you're doing for a big group party or something . So it's like you go one unless you . If you , if you like things super sweet , you do sweet and sour , the other way around . But it's fine , um , but you , okay , you know , if you imagine you're making a drink , so you go . Uh , my one measure is 25 mils . You'd be like , okay , I'm gonna do 25 mils of of sugar , um , of some description , 50 mils of sour , of some description , 75 mils of strong , of whatever you choose to be strong , and then 100 mils of something weak and you mix that together and you'll end up with a really delicious drink , unless you choose ridiculous flavours that are clearly not going to work together , like coffee and ginger . It doesn't work . People say it does , it doesn't um they fight each other , don't they ?

Speaker 2 39:12

they just it's something about it . Just , you know people try and claim this is really good . It's not , um , but yeah , so I mean . So , like my favorite , a wonderful one with uh , with dandy . Really super simple . So dandy is lapsang , souchong , peat , pine , cinnamon , clove , nutmeg , ginger , so all these really lovely warming flavours with this big , bold hit of smoke . My favourite drink with that is to make a paloma . So basically , what you would do is you're going to take the dandy smoke , which is kind of . It has a similar vibe to a mezcal um , if you understand booze , if you don't understand booze , it has a very smoky flavor , um , and I , like you , take a , a reasonable size shot of that . I would sort of say 35 mils ish , shots of that , uh , and then get yourself either some sparkling grapefruit soda , um , so whether that be uh , ting or three cents or you know something along those lines , or you can make it yourself really super easy .

Speaker 2 40:23

Literally get pink grapefruit juice and soda , um , and just combine them together but you do um one part , uh , dandy to um , to sort of three parts , um , your your your grapefruit soda . Loads of ice , don't be afraid of ice . Put as much in as you possibly can . The more ice in there , the slower the ice melts , so actually , the more consistent your drink is . Stir it up . Squeeze of lime put that um , put the wedge in as well .

Speaker 2 40:56

That is an absolutely beautiful happy days hummery , wonderful , smoky mature drink , like , absolutely stunning . If you're like , oh , I just need this a touch sweeter , grab a little bit of agave , touches with agave in there , stir it in , that's absolutely . That's , that's got to be one of my favorites , you know , um , if you ever want to shake a cocktail up and you haven't got a shaker and you haven't got all those things , just grab a jam jar or something like that . Um , you know , uh , there's a book , um , uh , cocktail book , where you know jj goodman , um , who started , uh , london cocktail clubs , which is now called the cocktail club .

Speaker 2 41:36

Um , he actually does , he's done a book on , literally from your cupboard , um , and it's just like you mix these things to make alcoholic cocktails , but you can literally grab that book . It's a great book . And then you can also look at all those recipes and go , I'm just gonna remove the booze and I can work out that this drink is a citrusy one or this one's a smoky one . You can grab , cross it and go right , I'm going to replicate yeah , put that one in and that solves it . Um , I think my favorite drink with fresh . Again , let's stick super simple , um , because otherwise I'll get , you know , carried away and I'll start making things really complicated .

Speaker 1 42:07

And then the smoker will come out .

Speaker 2 42:08

Yeah , yeah , yeah exactly , I'll be like where is my glass stone ? But it's an FTC . So fresh tonic and cucumber . Now , one of the big things about making a drink is to add a little bit of real to it , and what I mean by real is is some fresh fruit or you know , vegetable , or add something to just lift that drink into a new uh layer . So take a shot of fresh 25 mils if you want it stronger . If you're a person that goes out and goes , I would normally drink double gnt like sweet . We'll put 50 mils in . I mean it'd be really strong , but but you know , you know you put in the right amount . But start with 25 ml . Add tonic water . Tonic water is up to you . I personally like the tonic waters that people would suggest . Maybe aren't as good as other ones because there's a slight extra sweetness to it . Okay , and I find that actually more useful in the drink , interesting , okay .

Speaker 2 43:08

And I find that actually more useful in the drink Interesting . So take your tonic water , add tonic water in , and then get a couple of slices of cucumber and just put the cucumber in there and just let it soak a little bit before you drink it . You just want that cucumber flavor to come out . That drink is just absolutely delicious . I think it was the first one me and Tim came up with with and we both sat there , you know , and just went wow , this is actually really good .

Speaker 2 43:36

So , this is delicious . So that's the FTC . So you know , fresh tonic cucumber . When I make it a lot of time I might put the cucumber in first , then put the fresh on top of it , so the fresh starts sucking out the flavors of the cucumber and then top it up with ice and tonic water . It's wonderful .

Speaker 1 43:53

There is something about cucumber in a drink coming up to this season , the spring , she says , looking at the rain , you know there is something that just adds that lightness to it and there's that aroma because it's just . It's that drinking experience as well , the aroma that you get as well as you come to the glass , not just the taste .

Speaker 2 44:11

Yeah , Great tips , it's delicious . Then I would say the last one with pure is very much if you are a person that sort of enjoys a spritz . I mean if your husband just tell him to go and buy the Waitrose red grape juice .

Speaker 1 44:27

Okay .

Speaker 2 44:27

Right , that and the pure it tastes like an egg-a-roni . I'll make a note . If you like a longer drink , you want something for the summer . Go and get like a cloudy lemonade , whether it's flat or sparkling , your choice . I personally like that effervescence to it that add all of your traditional Pimm's fruits to it Go crazy Shot . Add all of your traditional Pimms fruits to it Go crazy Shot . A pure cloud of lemon juice , loads of ice , all your fruits , and then you've got this wonderful summer spritz .

Speaker 1 44:56

That sounds amazing , and so people can on the back of these boxes here .

Speaker 2 45:00

Yeah , a little QR code .

Speaker 1 45:01

So hopefully people will be able to see that there .

Speaker 2 45:05

Then they can just use their phones and head straight on over to the website and get some recipes and it's all broken down so you can be like , oh , I'm a , I'm a , I'm a you know bartender guru , so you can select that level . It'll give you really complicated ones so you can be like I have no idea what I'm doing . You'll be like , okay , just do these really simple ones and is that where you spend your time ?

Speaker 1 45:24

you're in the bartender guru one coming up with like lots of complicated terms .

Speaker 2 45:28

Oh no , I am , I am

Pub life

Speaker 2 45:30

, I go , I am literally I spent my entire life doing that and I am simple . You know , it's like my get people . They're like , oh , we're gonna go to some new , really cool , fancy cocktail bar . Do you want to come ? I'm like , no , I'll be really judgmental . And then , and then , like we're gonna go to the old man pub down the road , i'm'm like , yes , I do .

Speaker 1 45:50

I am exactly the same , Exactly so . We went to one recently and it's all phones and airs and loud music and strobe lights and multicoloured drinks . I don't need a drink that's got three different layers of colour in it . It's just not .

Speaker 2 46:08

You're not making it any better if I've chosen to go to that and I understand the skill involved and sometimes the flavor , and you know the flavors are amazing and the experience is amazing , like you know , but most of the time I'm not in that place , most time in that . I just need to end my day yeah and have something delicious .

Speaker 1 46:26

So I'm gonna go as simple as I can and I think there is something about because I still love a pub . You know I spent most of my working career in pubs and bars , so you know they hold a special place in my heart and there is nothing quite like just sitting in a nice pub , with a little bit of music on in the background , in a chair where you can have a conversation , because when you've spent 20 odd years working in hospitality and you've been on your feet for 20 years , it's really nice to sit down and talk yeah , yes , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 46:57

I'm aging myself . It's fine , I'm okay with that . Um , carl , this has been amazing . I could talk to you , uh , for the of the day , but I won't because you've got things to do . Two more things for you before I let you go . The first is where you mentioned the QR code , but for those who might be listening on the , on the audio , rather than watching on YouTube , what's the address you'd like to send people to ? Where can they go and find out more about you ? How do you want people to stay in touch and follow the Crossip journey ?

Speaker 2 47:31

I mean , if you want to go to wwwcrossipdrinkscom and Crossip is C-R-O-S-S-I-P Everyone always wants to add extra letters in , so head there and then the website . You know you can buy bottles there . You can also find out so much about us , our story . You can explore all the recipes and there's thousands online or Instagram is at CrossFit Drinks and we're always updating and trying to sort of excite people . We also every bar that we work with we post on our Instagram so you can find out new and amazing bars that are working with Crosship and you can go down and check out the drinks and , you know , get someone else to make it for you . It's much nicer , yeah . So yeah , those are the easiest ways to grab a bottle of Crosship and find out a bit more Fantastic .

Speaker 1 48:25

I will make sure that's all in the show notes and the descriptions and all the various places that you write things down for people yeah um , the last question before I let you go is one that I ask everybody who I speak to .

Speaker 1 48:36

Um , because , low , no nation

What does Carl drink?

Speaker 1 48:38

is all about spreading the love and showing people that there are amazing beverages out there for whenever they choose to live a life less intoxicated , for whatever reasons . So stretch your imagination . It's a nice sunny day and you're off to a barbecue at a mate's house , um , and you're not drinking on that day and you decide to take a couple of drinks along with you , other than the amazing cross-hip range , of course . First on the list , what other low or no or lower beverages do you like to enjoy on a day out ?

Speaker 2 49:11

I would say . I mean , one big thing for me has always been that even using CrossFit as well is I like making low drinks so you can add a small amount of alcohol , so you're talking five mils to it and you get that flavor , but it means that the drink is now two percent , which is great . So that's always good . But if I was going to choose a couple of brands , a couple of things to go out and drink , I think the first one in my bag , in my shopping bag , would be uh , real kombucha absolutely stunning product . Um , they sort of treat it like a wine , like a champagne sort of thing , which is kombucha .

Speaker 2 49:48

Flavors are wonderful . Uh , real , real depth to it . Um , really interesting . Uh , great group of people , um , so that was my first in there . Um , uh , yeah , so I really love their stuff , um , and then my second thing I would probably go , uh , I would probably bring some booze in , but keep it very low , and I'd probably go with small beer , two and a half percent beer , just wonderful , yeah , just like it's a really , you know , again , I always go flavour led . So it's things that I've drank that have struck me and made me go wow , this is , you know interesting and they just bring out . They've got a range of beers that I just find wonderful and it and again it's that really low abv . So , um , so it's something you can enjoy and go .

Speaker 1 50:40

John , I'm being a little bit more sensible here , so yeah , I think they've got a good uh , four or five in the range , haven't they ? Yeah and um , I think that this year I've said it before that that we're going to see a lot more of that sort of mid-range . Yeah , both in in in beers and in spirits . Um , decim have just relaunched their 10 percent . Yeah , um , there's a . You know , nicer brought out a 3.4 percent wine , so I think there's going to be a lot in that lower mid-range yeah where people are going .

Speaker 2 51:11

Look , I want to drink less , but I still want to drink yeah , I mean , like a lot of people don't , especially cocktails people don't realize what they're drinking in terms of how strong it is , you know . So margarita is when you've shaken a margarita and you've finished it right , normally it works out about 16 percent , right whereas . So you're like okay , that's a little drink , 16 , whereas you can go okay , well , I'm going to make a margarita with fresh and I'm going to add five mils of tequila in it , make the process the same , but you're putting less tequila in there , and then it's two and a half percent . So suddenly it's still alcoholic , but it's a low abv drink and you're like this is more sensible that you know .

Speaker 1 51:46

I think that's really interesting . There's I'm actually putting the next issue of the magazine together and I have a debate piece in there about um low alcohol drinks and where they should be on the supermarkets and don't start that argument with me and um , you know one , one , one .

Speaker 1 52:03

One side of the debate is that you know when you're using these drinks as directed and using smaller amounts , you're consuming less alcohol . Yes , but the problem is that people don't understand , like you said , what they're consuming . If you're having a glass of wine , you know it's 12 , you know . If you're having a beer , you know it's it's five percent , but one do . People don't actually know what abv is . And two , as soon as it becomes a mixed drink , as soon as you add some tonic to your gin or whatever it is that you're drinking , nobody has any idea . And so this chap's interesting point was that perhaps we should be looking at labeling with units instead of with abvs , so that people actually understand , because even I , after 24 years and work in hospitality , wouldn't have been able to tell you what the abv of a cocktail is yeah I know what went into it .

Speaker 1 52:50

Once it's made , I have no idea . It's just got booze yeah , no , it's .

Speaker 2 52:56

Uh , I , I think it's it's . Education is always the way , the way forwards , right , it's just the best thing . Um , you know , making an educated decision is that is the best way to make everyone , you know , keep everyone healthy .

Speaker 1 53:11

And that's it . And we've got to arm people with more information so that whatever choices they're making , then they are conscious decisions , as opposed to just habit and ignorance in the nicest possible way of just not knowing .

Speaker 2 53:25

So all the ignorance is ?

Speaker 1 53:25

you just don't know . Carl , this has been amazing . Thank you so much . I think that the watchers and listeners are going to get so much out of this and I will make sure that everyone knows where to go and find you and harass you with lots of questions about all the stuff we didn't get to cover .

Speaker 1 53:43

I'd love , perhaps at some point in the future , to get you back on again as things develop with CrossFit and new , because I didn't even get to ask about all the plans for the future , to get you back on again and as things develop with cross tip and and and new , because I didn't even get to ask about all the new , all the plans for the future , so we'll save that for another time yeah , keep an eye out for the summer , because it's a summer flavor oh , okay , you heard it here first , guys . Brilliant , carl . Thank you so much , my dear .

Speaker 2 54:05

Have a great day and you thank you so much , my dear , have a great day and you thank you very much .