Arron's Journey to Recovery

Speaker 1 1:12

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Today I am talking to the lovely Mr Aaron Smallman , not a brand founder , but the founder of let's Push Things Forward . He's a hospitality specialist , a peer-based recovery coach and a world record holder . Aaron is a self-proclaimed Lono Crusader and a mental health first aider who recently shared some of his insight with low no drinker magazine readers on the debate over mid-range spirits drinks and spirits in a moderation lifestyle , and in another soon to be published piece on the low no drinker blog , his expert subject matter opinion on the hospitality industry and how the low no drinks market and hospitality industry need to come together to make this a more viable option for everybody . So there is a lot to unpack . I'm really looking forward to our chat here today . So , without further ado , let's push things forward , aaron , and dive right in . How are you doing ?

Speaker 2 2:13

I'm really really good , Thank you . It's really like hearing that back , just being like oh yeah , there's quite a lot , isn't it ? Just the different aspects of hospitality and things that you were just like oh shit , that's something I did in my past and it's just what's brought me to this place here today . So , yeah , thank you .

Speaker 1 2:29

You've been a busy little bee .

Speaker 2 2:31

Yeah , I think it's interesting how I've come from a hospitality background . As you said , my sort of why and my main sort of passion these days is supporting people and not going through like what I went through . And there's a thing I come from , from my hospitality experience , is like trained bartenders all up and down the country , like you've probably drank in a bar that I have written a menu for , like that's just the sort of scope of what I was doing and I just sort of went how do we make this easier ? How do we make this easier ? Um , so yeah , it's just , unfortunately , I've been through my own sort of trials and tribulations . Um , I actually most recently moved into health and well-being within the hospitality industry .

Speaker 2 3:11

Um , due to my own sort of challenges and things . Uh , like I said , they have training as a recovery coach , like my sort of why and mission is sort of like to inspire the hospital industry , but also I don't want to say like to save it . That sounds really like grandiose and things , but we are struggling as an industry . There's a bit like the younger generation , don't ? They look at the , the long hours and the ? Um , the late nights and all this sort of thing and they're looking at it being like I don't want to do that .

Speaker 2 3:34

I want like it's not just not worth the time and the money and the energy that goes into it . So how do we make that better ? And then , yeah , really , really randomly started my business um , during lockdown started as a hospitality consultancy company . So basically like ramsey's kitchen nightmares , which you go into a , into a bar and go let's make this as easy as possible , just as you say in one day , it was just that right , we named after streets lyric , yeah , that's that was . That was as uh sort of creative as I got with it . And then , ironically , because coaching is forward focused , like it's actually a very good name for a coaching business . I'm like didn't mean that . But yeah , play the cards you dealt and all that , so it's all good and it all came together yeah there you go , um .

Speaker 1 4:11

So yeah , you've got a long background in hospitality , so , um , it's like myself . Anyone who's regularly watched or listened will know that I've got a 24 year career in hospitality , so there's quite a possibility . I'm meeting a lot of people now . I think did our paths cross at some point ?

Speaker 1 4:25

because it's always possible when you think back to this hospo world and the amount of people that you meet and the amount of events you go to and the amount of bars you drink in , but a lot of it was a blur . I'm going to put my hands up right now and say there's a lot of the past , of that 24 years , that I don't remember in great detail . Yeah , um , so what was it that you were doing ? So you were working in bars , you were helping create menus . What were you doing in hospo ? And how has that led to where you are now ? So , where you want to , yeah , so I started .

Speaker 2 4:55

I went to university , as a lot of people do , um , that was my first ever like hospital job . So I came around um , I did an undergrad in geochemistry , um decided that looking at rocks was really boring I didn't want to do it anymore , whereas my sort of job throughout the week was working in uh , one of the biggest student night clubs in manchester actually . Um , and it was fun , it was dynamic , it was fast-paced , it was all this sort of like . Just this , what you'd want as a student is like your ideal job and things Very sort of really social . It was just like all my housemates actually worked in the same bar and this sort of thing . So like there was a massive sort of community aspect to it and I just sort of like I just kept pushing myself and I just kept really sort of riding that wave and it made me happy and that was sort of .

Speaker 2 5:37

The downfall in the end was when I started with the alchemist . I actually worked in the first ever alchemist in spinning fields . Um , like was on the first ever uh roster there . I was the first their first ever uh trainer when they only had one site . I think they're up to like 40 sites now and I moved from there to new world trading company to new world trading company Company is the botanist group . They've got the O's towels , they've got a bunch of unique brands and stuff around . That's also where the world record came in .

Speaker 2 6:01

So , smuggler's Cove in Liverpool , my job for like three months was to research rum , which sounds quite good , but three months in , I think it's shortened my life expectancy a little bit and I was just like like oh , this isn't really really sustainable . Um , and that was the thing of just like creating these new menus , training people , and people looked up to you as well , and people like the number of bartenders are like I'd love to have your job one day and there were loads of aspects to it that I really really love . Like there's a concept called Meraki . Meraki is doing something with your utmost soul and your utmost passion and leaving a piece of you in something like when you create something . And that's how I feel about the venues that I've opened and it sounds cheesy as fuck , but I go into these venues that I've opened and just being like I helped set this up and I mean I can still tell you where the seller is and I had to change these things and like do you know ? I mean all the back of house and stuff and that's , that's like the pride and the sort of passion in it .

Speaker 2 6:52

For me , um , the challenge come no one ever teaches you how to look after yourself and no one ever teaches you that . No , like you have to do it yourself . So not only do you not have the knowledge I didn't know how you know sleep and mental health and the long-term effects of drinking and drug taking and things were going to have on me but to be able to to then put it into practice , I burnt myself out repeatedly and I just didn't understand what I was doing wrong , cause I was like work made me happy , so if I just work more I'll just get that happiness back . It doesn't work that way . You have to stop , you have to rest , you have to try and give your body a chance to heal . Um , and it's sort of just like I left the industry . A number of times I went to Asia and if you've got an issue with drinking , asia is the worst place to go because everything's very , very fucking cheap and there's not a lot to do when you travel in . Well , there's loads to do when you travel in . But it also all revolves around drinking .

Speaker 2 7:39

Ironically , um came back , I worked in uh birmingham and I managed the uh , it's called grain to glass . Now it's like there's the birmingham whiskey club . And again , it's another thing that I absolutely loved it and it was , uh , learning about quite a niche category . I know whiskey is not niche because it's massive , but I think it's one of the most misunderstood categories and that was a thing that , like , we took the bar from about 80 , 90 whiskeys when I started to 380 when I left , and that was in a year . So that's a big to be able to scale up to that collection . And it's just this little gem in the jewelry core which is really really fucking cool . But again , cool .

Speaker 2 8:13

Um , but again I was just facilitating my own sort of like issues with drinking and I I had the attitude and we'll talk about this a bit more about if it didn't have alcohol in it , what was the point , and that had been drilled into me . But that was also costing me as well in a really sort of really toxic way . In the end , um , the turning point . After that I come back to manchester . I worked in albert schloss , which is the busiest bar in Manchester .

Speaker 2 8:36

I was like I won the challenge and actually I pushed myself too hard there because I have high expectations of myself , I can love the industry and , like I said to that concert in Meraki , I will give my all to it , but at my own detriment , and I never learned to set boundaries and I never learned to honor myself and things as well . So , yeah , my daily routine was waking up in my bedroom in the afternoon , going to the little fridge in my room , opening a can of cider and drinking a shot of agua , which is like bolivian coca leaf liqueur , drinking on my own in the afternoon and then going to work and then just doing the same thing again and again and again . It's just like really toxic , like really , really toxic . And actually that's where lockdown came in . Lockdown was a blessing for me . That it was literally just like you have to sort your shit out here , otherwise you're going to be in trouble . You'll actually take that back . You already are in trouble , really , um .

Speaker 2 9:53

So , yeah , that was , uh , it was a bit of a challenge and that's where the , the alcohol free , started coming . Um it having those options and having those , um , more mindful choices , that was the real thing that just sort of changed my life . Um , and suddenly I got it , and I never got it before . I was always like what's the point in this ? This is a waste of time , blah , blah , blah . And it's always been rising like this . The alcohol-free stock has always been . You know , it's bigger than ever . Um , but now I'm just like other people need to know about this , because it's the reason that I'm still here , and it might be the reason that other people are still here in a while as well .

Speaker 1 10:26

So yeah , it is such an impactful area , isn't it ? This alcohol-free , what we have available to us ? I want to come back to that , obviously . I wanted to just touch on what you said before about community and the cycle .

Drugs & Alcohol in Hospitality

Speaker 1 10:48

That really resonates with me , because I was exactly the same . A lot of the reason why I think in hospitality you stick around isn't because of the . It's not , definitely not because of the wages , that's that's for sure . And even getting their free drinks at the end of a shift or whatever , you know as much or as little as a cent of that as that might be , but it's that community , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 11:04

it's that sense of belonging it's and and it's one of the the , the elements that we all need to survive as human beings . We need , after the essential needs of food and shelter , we need community , we need a sense of belonging . Yeah , that , and autonomy , which is really interesting , because autonomy being making your own choices in the community , around hospitality and drinking . Quite often you stop making your own choices . Quite often it becomes habitual and it becomes as you said , you know , waking up in the afternoon because you've worked until well , you maybe worked until midnight , you've been out till three or four or six , you know .

Speaker 2 11:38

And then you get up Casinos and that yeah .

Speaker 1 11:40

Yeah , absolutely . Oh well , I discovered that casinos were a place that you could go and continue drinking . I mean , it was just like forget about it , you know . And so it becomes this sort of self-fulfilling perpetuation of itself , doesn't it ? Because you think I'll be part of the community , we'll have a few drinks , and then you feel terrible , but then everyone else is having a drink and you don't want to miss out and you don't want to feel left out . So you go and you have another drink and it just it's no good . And I found it didn't matter what position I was in . You know , I started collecting glasses , like a lot of people who were in management , and moved up to , uh , you know , working on the bar , working as a front of house , then managing venues , and then that's even worse , because the booze is just there . I'm the boss , I can drink what I want , when I want , how I want , yeah , and no one can stop me they should , they can't yeah , it's , uh , it's .

Speaker 1 12:33

It's a dangerous game , but hospitality can be such an amazing career , yeah , if people know how to work in it safely that's what it is , isn't it you ?

Speaker 2 12:44

you become like the people you surround yourself with . With what you said there , um , that's what the community has becomes like . Your body will always tell you what it is that you need , um , and actually , loneliness . Is your body trying to make you so uncomfortable that you go and seek connection ? Um , because if you're isolated , it's a survival thing , isn't it ? Like you're at risk of being picked off ? And I appreciate that , with civilization moving faster than evolution , like that's not really a thing . These , like you're not going to get picked picked off by a bear , hopefully , um , but that's the idea in it that , like , you become like you , the people you surround yourself with .

Speaker 2 13:14

And there's a really interesting experiment , um , I think it's actually just called the line experiment and it's a really shit name for a really good thing . Okay , basically , like a guy and it's um , he's going in and they're literally doing a test of which line is longer A versus B , and the guy who's the experiment was just like well , obviously it's A , isn't it ? And then it starts to get a bit weird because people start saying the wrong answer and just in , like little groups , and they got it to the point where , like how many people do you need around telling you and agreeing on the wrong answer before you go against what you know is the right answer ? But you want to fit it ? And he got to five people around the group and he could see him . He was getting quite distressed about it . He was just like what the fuck is going on here ? This is horrible . And he just like really uncomfortable and he just really begrudgingly went yeah , yeah , it's that one . And he agreed with the group .

Speaker 2 14:06

And that's what happens with drinking culture , whereas if you started at a new venue and they're like oh well , we actually get together on a Saturday and we go for like walks and we do like more mindful things and we do creative outlets , that just stuff that doesn't center it might involve booze , but it doesn't center around booze you suddenly have got a bit of a healthy culture there and instead of like having this situation where people are like oh god , I was so fucking shit face last night . Oh , look at me , I'm hungover like and championing this and you used to see it people come in and be like I've not been to bed yet and be like why are you celebrating that ? And two , in about two hours . You're gonna be fucking useless behind this bar because you're just gonna crash and it's gonna be absolute nightmare so it's like what like I don't know who you're trying to impress .

Speaker 2 14:47

That's , that's always been my thing about it and I like I had my own self-destructive cycles . I really , really didn't like myself . But I didn't really notice this until until I gained clarity on um , uh , by removing and controlling alcohol within my life . Um , and there's actually a really weird thing about it's a bit of a side tangent , but I have come to the conclusion that I basically have ASD , which is autism spectral disorder , and I never noticed because I was pissed all the time and it was actually the alcohol that was facilitating these conversations and it's things like audio processing I really struggle with and people say about like my accent . I was like where the fuck are you from ? I'm like I copy people , people's accent because it's a trait of autism so I used to do sessions and people used to go what's happening to your voice .

Speaker 2 15:30

But that's that's the hospitality thing , that you mirror people because you want to fit in in this community and all this sort of thing as well . So , yeah , it's fascinating . How do we , how do we fuel that ? Also , how do we , how do we make people understand that like it's to think long term ? And I think we really struggle to think long in the industry . We're very reactive to things rather than being proactive on things , and there's so much time they just go we need to save money . Like cut wages , no , don't , don't , order that Don't . And they just write they slim down resources , whereas actually , if they reframe things a bit like it's not a cost , it's an investment going to do is we're going to invest in educating our teams and invest in healthy stuff for them , and my thing has always been like this idea is that you just go .

Speaker 2 16:11

There's unlimited soft or alcohol free options available behind your bar if you come in at any point . That's the way that I always just think it should be . I had not . These should people . That's not a very good way of making change . But do you know , I mean that sort of thing like you facilitate the , the consumption of those products by taking the price barrier away from it . And , um , I saw a document the other day which was every uh drinks offer in manchester and all of the all of the venues , which is great . It's not a single alcohol free option on it and I would do it where you just go . Do you know ? If you work in hospitality and you want a coffee , it's on us or it's 50 off or something . It's just something like that that they can come in on their day off or on the break or something like that , and you can go . There's alcohol-free options here and we will facilitate that for you rather than you being on your break getting shit faced and going back to work and that's what you do .

Speaker 1 16:55

That's what happens , isn't it , people ? You know , on your break you go and you have two or three pints because you know the barman in the pub down the road or whatever it is and he'll do the same in your place .

Speaker 1 17:06

Yeah , and then . And then let you say , you know , in a couple of hours you'll be , you know , absolutely useless . But you know , depending on where you work and what's around , for sometimes you wouldn't get useless because in a couple of hours somebody'd make a phone call . You know , other things would turn up , you know , and it's not just the drinks then , is it ? It's the drugs that come along with it .

Speaker 1 17:23

Hospitality can facilitate that sort of lifestyle if that's what you let it do , and if I mean the managers good managers and ops directors are always very hard-lined , you know it's a no , but it's the team on the ground that need to embrace the fact that they have options and that they have other ways of doing things and that actually working hung out your ass every single day is not good for you . It's just not serving you in in any way . For me , I found that the constant alcohol and the constant drinking I didn't realize it until I started doing the magazine that I used to live by the phrase fake it till you make it . It used to be my , my go-to , my mantra , and it's because I spent every single day filled with self-doubt as to what I was doing , because I never , ever actually gave myself a chance to figure out if I wanted to do this job , if I was good at this job , if I was capable of this job . Yeah , I just went .

Speaker 1 18:19

I've had a shit session , a shit service wine . I've had a great service wine . That's just the .

Speaker 2 18:27

It was robotic almost just that habitual nature of it , isn't it that you , um , you use alcohol at all points there ? And I thought about this and I saw someone share a linkedin post about how much they would have spent on alcohol in their lifetime . Um , and I recommend six figures easily , easily , six figures spent on alcohol , and it's just like for what ? But just just to come back to what you said about the um , about the drug taking hospitality , I think there's a really interesting analogy I heard the other day . The drug taking hospitality is a similarity to um , plastic surgery in silicon valley , and the analogy is , to start with it's seen as an extreme behavior to get , like you know , plastic surgery done , for example . Then it translates into an accepted behavior that it's just something . You go , it's no big deal , you've just had this done . Then it becomes an expected behavior . And then it's things like you get to a certain point in silicon valley and you're expected to look a certain way , so you get this stuff done .

Speaker 2 19:29

It's the same thing with drug taking hospitality . And it's you to start with . Someone makes a phone call and you're 18 , 19 and you take drugs on shift . That's extreme . Then it becomes someone's made a phone call , it's no big deal . Then it suddenly becomes well , actually it's a tuesday night and we haven't got much to do , so let's just get a bagging and it becomes expected . And that change in mindset not that any of it's good , but that particular change in mindset there is fucking dangerous , really really dangerous . And we've heard um examples as well of people celebrating and almost laughing about the fact that they owe their drug dealer like thousands of pounds , like , yeah , my dealer's dead sound , yeah , I owe my two grand , and laughing about it . I'm like there is nothing good about this situation , nothing whatsoever . How do we get and how do we get people out of that ?

Speaker 1 20:12

like that's , that's the real fucking challenge yeah , I mean , that is definitely no laughing matter , um , it's .

Speaker 1 20:19

It introduces you into a world that you just nobody's ready for and nobody really understands it , and you find yourself in places and in situations and doing things that you just you wouldn't choose to do if you were of half the same mind . Yeah , um , and now I think I've got , I've got two little kids , as I mentioned before . You know , I've got a son and a daughter who are four and six at the moment , and I think , oh my god , I really hope they're smarter than me , I really hope they make better choices than I do , because the I'm lucky in a lot of respects to still be here today , as , as a lot of people would say you know , I was mentioned beforehand I'm not , I'm not in recovery , I'm not , um , coming out of a rock bottom moment , but I have put myself in a lot of situations that a lot of people could have turned around and said you might be at rock bottom . Maybe you might need to think about exactly what you're doing and did you ?

Speaker 2 21:07

did you listen to them when they said that ?

Speaker 1 21:09

because I fucking didn't no , no , I mean , very few people said it to me it's . There were times people could have said that from things that I'd done . There were times when I'd said things to myself like this might not be the brightest thing you've ever done , when I've woken up in the middle of god knows where , at silly , silly o'clock in the morning , having to walk down dark streets by myself as a young woman and you're just like . This is stupid . Um , for me I never . It wasn't until I was much older . I only started down this low , no path a few years ago and I'm 44 now . Um , I think everybody comes to this path for different reasons , at different times in their lives and in different ways , and one of the reasons why I created with the magazine was because I wanted to produce something for people who had come to the realization that you don't always need to face a rock bottom and you don't always need to face , uh and a , you know , a soul-changing epiphany yeah to go .

Speaker 1 22:09

I need to reassess my relationship with alcohol and myself .

Speaker 2 22:13

Yeah , because yeah can I ask just just a complete randomly if your kids came to you when they're 18 and they said , mom , I want to work in hospitality , what would you say to them ?

Speaker 1 22:23

do you know what ? I would tell them , if that's what they wanted to do , that they should go for it . But I would have a really frank conversation with them about what it's really like and how tough it can be and what challenges they might expect . And I know every parent says that you know . Oh yeah , I'll be open with my kids . I try really hard to have really even though they're only little , I try really hard to have really honest conversations with them about things . Because one of the reasons I think why I was so experimental in my youth is that everything was cut off from me . I wasn't allowed to do anything . Everything was bad Girls don't behave like this . You know , my mom is a very strict Jamaican Christian woman and there's certain expectations , um , and I was like well , no , I want to do shit . If you're not going to let me do it , then I'm just going to go and do it myself .

Speaker 2 23:19

Um , and I'm very much of the belief that I'd rather know my kids are doing something stupid yeah then let them go and do something stupid on their own yeah , at least you can support and help them in that way .

Speaker 1 23:31

Yeah and I think , considering all the things I've been through and what I've done , I think that I'd be best placed to be able to help them with that . So if they wanted to go into hospitality , I would explain that it can be an amazing career and it can be a fantastic and it's given me so many life skills that I don't think I could have got anywhere else .

Speaker 2 23:48

Yeah , but I mean people should , should six months in the service industry . You'll learn more from than going to uni or you'll learn more from I mean it's accelerated . You get exposed to so many people and just the general public and having to think on your feet and adapting and all this sort of thing like you have to . You just build so so many human skills so quickly that you then look at it and be like , even if they just turn around and be like , I would not go anywhere near that again , but I've learned a lot it teaches you respect for other human beings as well , which I find that it's one of those skills you don't pick up in many other environments because you have all walks of life .

Speaker 1 24:24

I mean depending on what kind of hospitality you're working in . Obviously , if you're sort of in super high-end fine dining , then your clientele might be slightly more restricted . But in the majority of hospitality you are meeting so many people from so many walks of life , both through the people that come into your venues and the people that you work with , and those life skills and those communications and being able to understand and accept and support and help other people and grow from those . That's something that you don't get sitting in a nine to five working in a cubicle .

Speaker 2 24:53

Is that it Just making cold calling people and just like , yeah , it's not the same , I've done that too .

Speaker 1 24:59

That sounds like my worst nightmare .

Speaker 2 25:01

Fair play to you for sticking it out . I think what you said there is really interesting . It says , like you said , you'd have frank and honest conversations with you , with your kids , um , and I think that's what we're lacking , and we talk a little bit about stigma . Part of being a train to recovery coach , part of it is actually we don't shine a spotlight on stigma because we don't actually really want to talk about it . We want to positively promote recovery and I understand , um , lono drink is not a recovery podcast .

Speaker 2 25:26

Um , it is literally the case that that's been part of my journey . And isn't it wild in terms of we stigmatize people for not drinking , basically like , go and have a drink

Navigating Stigma and Recovery in Hospitality

Speaker 2 25:36

, pressurize them and all this sort of shit . Then we stigmatize them when they need help for stopping drinking , and that , to me , is ridiculous , that both ends of the spectrum , you're putting pressure on someone to do something they don't want to do and then you're stigmatizing them for asking for help for getting out of that situation , and that , for me , is just like it's mind-blowing , isn't it ? That's that's normalized in society as well ? Like , yeah , really , really , really scary , I think , is the is the way that I framed it , so especially as it's so hard to live in that middle .

Speaker 1 26:07

It's so hard to you know . I can't remember who I was speaking to . We were talking about the fact that it's so hard to go out for one . You know , if you're in your like I used to call my professional drinking days you're gonna meet a mate . You're like , oh no , I'm really tired , like I'll just come for one . I'm like there's no such bloody thing . Yeah , you're not going out for one , we're going out for a session yeah you know .

Speaker 1 26:24

And so if you don't feel like drinking , and they do , and they're like come on , come on , come on , come on , and then you end up .

Speaker 1 26:28

That's when you end up , and those always turned into the three night benders yeah where you were just like a a shadow of your former self by by the end of it yeah , so let's look at this now in terms of back to what you were saying about having these options in these venues for people , because you mentioned before we pressed record as well about the impact that low and no drinks have have had , because I was reading an article

The role of Low/No Drinks

Speaker 1 26:57

yesterday , I think the day before uh , a phd in australia , has released an article where she says that she is concerned that there is not enough research into the impact of low and no beverages on young people um and in in brackets , those in recovery or with aud uh close brackets , because we don't know that they might not be a gateway drink to more consumption .

Speaker 1 27:28

I'm guessing this is a kind of area that you may have come across before . It may have been something that has been brought up , but do you have any thoughts on whether low-no drinks are an aid and a tool that people can use or whether they are more risk than we might initially think ?

Speaker 2 27:46

It is a very broad question that is normally answered on an individual basis . So we're part of the Sober Business Network and there are people in the business network that are like this is black and white , all or nothing . There is when it comes to like the low sector , for example . So that's either like it's either got alcohol in it or it's not , and there's no , there's no gray area in it . But life is a gray area Like there's loads of variables in it . There are people in that group , myself included , that without no and low products , their life , their life would be completely different and the chances are they wouldn't actually be here , and I'm quite open and honest about that . Like it would have fucking , I would have gone under .

Speaker 2 28:26

The consumption of alcohol-free equivalents of someone in recovery is enough to push them back over the edge . It is the person's responsibility , it is not the responsibility of the brand or the product designer , for example . They are making products that serve a purpose . Alcohol-free beer is one of actually technically the healthiest things that you can drink , due to sugar , additives and all this sort of thing being in other things . But if it's the thing that causes someone to relapse , for example , then it's not the beer maker's fault , but the person has to take responsibility for that . There's a big thing that if someone goes , oh , whose fault is it ? It's not just fault , it's responsibility that they have to take . And we talked about this . Um , obviously we know carl and um we've loved from in the alcohol-free bar in manchester and we got into a conversation about like recovery spaces or safe spaces for people that want to mindfully drink . Let's talk , let's talk about that .

Speaker 2 29:27

And people been like , oh , they couldn't be in a bar because they'd be triggered by the presence of alcohol , and I do understand that . But there's also the aspect to it if you are living in the world and you can't see alcohol at all without getting triggered by it , you're going to struggle . It's going to be hard , because alcohol advertising is everywhere . It's like the football . You're walking down the street , it's on buses , you know , I mean , it's just like you are exposed to it . So you have to take responsibility and go . How can I see an advertisement for an alcoholic beer and not get triggered by that into relapsing ? And that's where a lot of the mirror work and a lot of the self-work has to come in .

Speaker 2 30:03

So , yeah , I think my opinion on it in terms of alcohol-free is that you couldn't think of a better time to stop drinking or to mindfully drink because of the options that are available , and there's a whole idea that you can then go well , pick your favourite drink , your favourite spirit , your favourite cocktail , your favourite whatever , and there are more quality options than ever available for it . Do you know what I mean ? We're living in a world where it's becoming more accepted through difficult conversations . No doubt there are still people out there with the advocacy of the dimension of social media , where people don't take responsibility for the horrible things they say . Yeah , some people still do that , but the key thing is that you're going right .

Speaker 2 30:48

I can set my own boundaries here , and this is what I sort of do in coaching , is I go if you want alcohol to still be in your life , but you don't want it to control you . Basically , like my mantras and my sort of ruling on life , let's create some boundaries around that thing , and I want you to go away and research what products that you'd like . We found that a bit of a pinch point has been red wine alcohol-free red wine . Because of how bold , um alcoholic red wine is , it's been a bit of a , a tough bridge , a tough gap to bridge , um , but you make a game out of it . Well , let's go and try some new ones . Then let's find out where , like let's go to these wine shops they must be .

Speaker 1 31:24

They must be facilitating the growth of this category , because they'd be stupid not to so I think that we are in such a boom time for these low and no products and the the growth is only going to continue to grow . You know you can look at all the stats and all the numbers you want , but in real terms , you're looking at what people want , the comments and questions that people like you and I get from all the people we come across , and it is you know what's the best one of these and what's your favorite one of those and I used to like drinking this . What can I have instead ? This is a mind-blowingly positive time to be looking for low and no alternatives . I think that we need to respect that .

Speaker 1 32:08

There are some people who would find them to be a trigger , as you were saying .

Speaker 1 32:12

Of course there will be , but also , as you were saying , we don't live in a world that's made for one person . You know there has to be a certain point where someone has to go . Look , I don't like seeing this and this is a trigger for me , and if I drink this drink , it's going to make me want to go and have six shots of whiskey and dance on a bar . So those people need to understand that that is how they feel and that's how they're going to react and to manage that accordingly , because there are so many people that I'm hearing from now who are saying this is amazing , I've got a choice , I can have something else . Who are saying this is amazing , I've got a choice , I can have something else . I normally I got a message from someone who's like I always have a drink when I'm out with my husband and my friends because I feel pressured to , but now I know that I've got some other options and I was like that's it , that's what you want to achieve that people know that they have options .

Speaker 2 33:07

Yeah , absolutely . And I think you said about the , the rise of the , the no category . I think people are finally cottoning on to low and it's always blown my mind that , again , this is all or nothing thing . I was like there's enough options out there that you can reduce alcohol and drinks without eradicating it all altogether .

Speaker 2 33:27

Um , I'm a huge advocate for liars and the simplicity of their model that , like , they have an alcohol-free equivalent of things that you already know . Like they couldn't make it any easier and actually , when I do consultancies , I've put menus in place where they go . Where's the alcohol free ? I'm like , no , no , you just order a cocktail and if you want alcohol free , we'll make it alcohol free using using liars and there are amazing ones out there as well um , but it's things , isn't it like that , that you just go okay , margarita . Margarita tends to be a bit of a staple in terms of , like , uh , bartender , quality , for example , the two , two drinks that we found that people judge one is the quality of their guinness and the other is the quality of their margarita , and that's a sort of standard . But if you wanted , um , a margarita where you just wanted to lower the abv without taking it out , if you were to use um , liars , uh , liars agave , and then you use either you know , quantro's 40 , you've got like curacao , which is like 24 or something like that .

Speaker 2 34:20

Um , you then got it where , roughly , that would be like maybe half a unit in a drink , something like that , and that's the thing it's been , like people being able to reduce alcohol , but without taking it out entirely , and this just seems to be this whole gap that gets skipped over . And I find it really wild that it's the no and low industry , but it seems to be almost in the past , it seems to be just predominantly no and the low has just been this little laughter thought and I'm like , well , hang on , what's going on here ? Surely there's a market here to be able to have people like mindfully drinking . You got drinks like shoff and you've got rattlers coming out and things that are just a bit more , um , sort of mindfully balanced when it comes to , um , especially that consumption there really is a low , is is going to keep exploding uh , a rate of knots .

Speaker 1 35:05

I think the biggest challenge for the low has been people understanding how to use it . And that takes me back to something that you had said in the article that you wrote for the magazine , which was fantastic . Thank you very much . If you've not read it yet , go and get it , because you mentioned in there about people using , as you were saying , alternatives and lower ABV drinks and then making a cocktail or a spirit and mixer , or there are gins out there that you're only supposed to use a thimbleful , and so on and so forth . And what's really interesting , I think , is that most people have a vague idea of what ABV is and what it means . Even if they couldn't explain it , they know roughly what it means .

Speaker 1 35:51

And , interestingly , just now , when you were talking , you were saying that if you make a drink , this will be the unit content in it . Yeah , it's really interesting , isn't it ? Because you go to the doctor and the doctor says how many units do you drink in a week ? Yeah , and one of two things happens Either you lie , everybody lies , everybody lies . Either you lie , everybody lies , or the truth is . You just don't know how to answer that question . You know , I think there is room for exploring what you were mentioning before , which is about educating people a bit more about the units of their drinks so that they know what they're actually having . So when you want to have a lower abv drink , you want to have less alcohol . You actually know it by the amount of units .

Speaker 2 36:32

yeah , is this your body roughly , roughly varies according to size and metabolism and all this sort of thing

ABV and units

Speaker 2 36:40

uh , processes and , yeah , processes one unit of alcohol an hour . So why then don't we measure drinks ? In that it doesn't really make any sense . So someone's going okay , how strong is that beer ? It's like it's 5% and I even before I had to Google before this I was like how many units is that ? Because I thought it was 2.4 and it's not , it's 2.8 . So I do this for a living and even I got like I got that wrong . So you're saying that so someone will have a pint of five percent beer over the limits of drive and that that uh product will still be in their system nearly three hours later .

Speaker 2 37:19

And you can't avoid alcohol . It's a natural fucking thing and it happens in everything . But it's then going if you , I know they're all relative , but why wouldn't you just try and make it easy ? Which is , when you finish this drink , the drink size is irrelevant . When you finish this drink , you have consumed this amount of alcohol and this is how long it's going to take your body to process it . Surely that is a simpler way of doing it , rather , because that's that's just with beer , which is linear , trying to do it in a cocktail where you're like , well , this is 40 , this is 24 , this is how much is in it before it's shaken , this is how much dilution goes into it . And you're just looking at that and that's complex for someone to do , especially new generations of bartenders . Just say it's got this many units of alcohol in it , done Flat .

Speaker 1 38:02

I think , because even I , with all my experience , couldn't tell you the units of ABVs in the drink . Once it's been mixed and once it's been shaken , you know you're making a cocktail and you've got how many different ingredients are in there . I don't know , it's just got a lot of booze , but having things . I think that's one of the biggest things I'm speaking to people . It's about the education , about informing people so that they can make wiser choices and know that they have those options in there wiser choices and know that they have those options in there . And I think if you were to start labeling the units of drinks , people would be able to understand what it is that they're consuming . Like you know , I'd love to know how many people listening who just heard that a pint of beer at five percent is 2.8 units . How many people knew that ?

Speaker 1 38:45

yeah I don't think very many why ?

Speaker 2 38:48

why is there calories on menus but there's not units on drinks menus , when the separate conversation about calories but it's there . The reason it's there is for health reasons , for the obesity crisis . The units of alcohol would be another health thing and it's an awareness piece , isn't it ? And we talked about this actually in the health and well-being spheres . It's like we'd never want to think of food as numbers . Because it , because it takes all the fun out of it , because it's fucking , because it's the restaurant industry is an amazing thing , and cooking and all the opportunities as well . In the same way , you don't want the units of alcohol to entirely dictate like unite , but it's fucking important , really important , particularly if there's things that I'm just having one and then going home or what you know . I mean , how am I planning out the rest of the week ? Unfortunately , we're getting on a bit where you feel like we have to think about if we are going to drink ahead yeah , what do I have on this week ?

Speaker 2 39:47

and if I have a pint on monday , what's it going to do on Friday ?

Speaker 1 39:50

Yeah , do you know what I mean ?

Speaker 2 39:51

It's just that sort of thing , isn't it ? Someone just go in Like you said that shit . I didn't realize it had that many units of alcohol in it and I think wine would be a great one , because they would , because it sinks down too easy . I wouldn't go anywhere near wine . These just will not . I used to love it . I've still got a lot of respect for it . It's never been my sort of forte , but it's dangerous just in terms of you have a large glass of wine . Suddenly you have , yeah , just get another glass , yeah , and it for me it's the easiest one that just sort of descends when you go fucking hell , we only went out for a drink . We had three bottles of wine between the two of us and it just disappears and then you're just going , like I think with with beer it's a little bit more like , because the volume is greater- yeah , yeah so you've got a bit more and I I maintain this and I've done this in coaching and said , like putting boundaries around your drinking .

Speaker 2 40:38

I was like what if you just drank in halves , for example , and they're like , why would that make a difference ? I'm like , because what you've got is , every time you finish a half , you've got an interception point where you can make a decision about whether you want another one . And and in the same way with wine , if you just ordered small glasses of wine that have less units in them obviously , same ABV , but less units , a smaller drink then you then go do you want another one ? And there's all these things , whereas if you put a bottle on the table , that's it . You're going to drink the bottle . So yeah , it's that thing and it's mindful , and the third bottle . But you think the other person wants the third bottle . So then that third bottle lands on the fucking table and you both look at each other and like why are we doing this ?

Speaker 1 41:23

Yeah , but we've got it now , so we might as well drink it .

Speaker 2 41:26

I'm going to begrudgingly finish it .

Speaker 1 41:29

You're right , wine is the worst . The hangovers I would have on wine were absolutely excruciating because it dehydrates you so much and it felt in the morning like all the liquid had gone from my brain . Yeah , but at the time it gees you up so much and you're just like , yeah , okay , go on , then let's have another one . It's one of those that sharing thing , isn't it ? It's like , well , get a bottle between us .

Speaker 1 41:50

It's a community thing , it's , a connection thing , it's a connection thing , and so I think it's about finding replacements for those , finding something else for those times . A lot of the founders that I speak to , for example Luke Hemsley , at Wednesday's Domain they do the non-alcoholic wine and he said his point is very much about not telling people not to drink , but it's about offering a replacement for those wine moments so that you can still enjoy that connection .

Speaker 1 42:18

And how great would it be to be able to go into a bar and say , as you said , should we get a bottle of wine ? And have the bartender say is that with alcohol or without alcohol ? Yeah and to be able to look to your mate and just go . Do you know what ? I don't fancy booze tonight , should we get ? Oh , there's a really lovely bottle of that one over there .

Speaker 2 42:31

Let's try that yeah , they're also scared not scared to one . There's the expectation about it isn't there and it's like it's that celebration thing , isn't it ? And this is one of the hospitality issues comes in and like you celebrate having a good night , but then you celebrate having a bad night and then you celebrate a tuesday afternoon and it just , yeah , it all sort of unravels . So how do we get it where we empower the , the bartender , server , whoever hospitality worker , to really understand and sell that product , because I don't , it's quite a rare thing these days and to make someone part money ? They see that as it's 20 quid for that bottle and it doesn't have alcohol in it , so what am I getting out of it ? And that's the , that's the , the gap that needs bridging there . And it's almost having that skill set to be like well , let let them try it first .

Speaker 2 43:19

And the number of times that , like I've seen it , where you're trying to sell , um , because hospitality is a sales , is a sales ship , um , but you're trying to get people to go . You need to try this . Like this will change your life . And I used to take the piss out of it and just be like I've never a good serve of food . I could always do drink . I used to go you need to try and try the cheesecake . It'll change your life and it just just it doesn't tell you anything about how the cheesecake is . It just says it will change your fucking life and it's the same thing . But we're trying to go try this alcohol-free

Managing menus / lost sales

Speaker 2 43:49

wine . It might change your life , or it will change your life and someone might go . I didn't know this was a thing , but now I do . It's opened a world of possibilities for me , and that is that's hospitality . That is like in terms of being able to get that , and unfortunately there is just still that skills gap there . I actually released , um , a free guide to upselling and put it on the manchester bars and the facebook groups of manchester and it was all just shit that I picked up from years of work in hospitality .

Speaker 2 44:18

Um , people don't want to make choices in hospital . They think they do , but they really don't . They want to go in and they want to see their mate that's why they're there and they want to see live music and the sort of thing , and they don't want all this like overload of choice . They want something that they understand , they know how it's going to taste . They say they want the newest and latest and greatest thing , don't they ? It's like your new phone is exactly the same as your old phone , with a couple of new features . In the same way , you want your wine to taste just like the wine that you know that you love .

Speaker 2 44:49

And if we can get that and take the alcohol out of it or lower the alcohol in it , suddenly there's a world of opportunities there yeah but then again there's some venues that they don't even get that far because the the owners and operators don't understand it , so they don't even stock the product in the first place . So that's the thing , isn't it ? It's like how do we get not just the , the people serving the drinks , up to the standard and the passion and enthusiasm that we need ? Yeah how do we get the people to get the , the stock in the building in the first place ? So we're actually we're fighting a number of battles and how are you finding that ?

Speaker 1 45:17

because you are very much at the forefront of trying to have these conversations with these operators and ops managers , and , and and gms . Is it getting easier to get your foot in the door ? Is it getting easier to have these conversations ? Are you still butting the same heads against the wall ?

Speaker 2 45:32

it varies massively , okay , and money talks and this is what we're finding . So , um , we both know , andy me , um , of the alcohol free drinks company , incredible range of alcohol free on draft and it's a massive decider in getting people into your venue , because people that drink are just basically like , well , as long as they've got beer on draft , I don't care . But for someone that doesn't drink and go like , well , if they've got alcohol free on draft , can we go to here or can we go to there . What we're finding is they can't even get on the lines because the big boys are paying for those lines and they say , like , use heineken as an example , for example , heineken zero on draft , and I know they've got the little tabletop machines as well , but getting an alcohol-free on draft , and they'll be like we'll pay you X amount to be on that line across the estate . And if the , let's say , the procurement team , for example , doesn't understand the opportunities of no and low and the massive fucking thing that's coming in , someone comes in and be like we'll pay X number of thousands of pounds to have a year on that line . It's alcohol free . They go yes , and they don't even look at the options , let alone the fact that , because of the volume of the big boys , their prices are literally just lower , and that's just a production thing . There's not many ways you can get around that . So that's what you're talking about .

Speaker 2 46:43

Like multiple operators , it's a little bit easier in individual venues . What you tend to struggle with there is then the volume thing . You have to bear in mind as well , that you have to take things like preservatives into account . Alcohol-free doesn't last as long as alcohol , because it doesn't have the natural preservative in it . So it's then more important than ever that you understand how this needs to be sold and it needs to be put in a price bracket that is accessible . It needs to be shouted about as well , particularly if you're like sat at a table and you can't see the bar but there's alcohol free on draft and you've got no idea that it's a thing .

Speaker 2 47:18

Um , you really struggle to make that sale . Then , um and I've had it before with like , uh , liars , for example , is great , but liars one , it mixes differently , but two , that doesn't last as long . You have to refrigerate as well , so you have to respect the product . Um , so that's a bit about the um , the sort of logistics of actually stocking it . I've had it where venue owners have been like I just don't get it , I don't get the point . Then I put a new menu in and it went live and the three of the top five selling drinks that weekend were alcohol-free drinks and they were like , okay , now I get it , and so that's the thing that money talks . And they will start to get it when they see the results . But the irony is , without the results , they might not even put it in in the first place . So , yeah , it's getting easier , but this is where we need data to come in and go . It is proven to have an alcohol-free on your draft . Alcohol-free on draft is good for your venue , yeah , and good for all aspects to it .

Speaker 1 48:13

There was a study recently , wasn't there ? Reported by the BBC , that somebody did , where they replaced a couple of lines with AF draft . Yeah , and the venues found no drop in sales and an increase in alcohol-free sales . Yeah , and that's got to be better , right , because how many pubs and bars are closing every week , every month , across the UK ? And I love a bar , I think that our pubs are the cornerstone of the British community and we need to do everything we can to preserve them , to have them as places that are community hubs .

Speaker 1 48:50

And where I've moved to , there are about five or six pubs along my street and , yeah , some of them are really lovely and they're family oriented and you can go in for a sunday roast , and some of them are slightly more mature and edgy . We'll call them edgy , shall we ? But they all serve a place and a purpose , you know , and they help to bring people together . But the fact that they are closing because so many of them won't acknowledge that there is so much money to be made from those who want to drink less and it's interesting because there's a lot of talk , obviously , about Gen Z and millennials being the ones who are leading this , but the people that are going to the pubs with the spare money , the people that want quality , to the pubs with the spare money , the people that want quality , the people of our generation who have partied hard and now just want to sit down and be able to hear themselves over the music .

Speaker 1 49:38

Yeah , I will sit there for hours and buy more and more drinks . Yeah , we haven't got anything , so we're like , okay , well , there's only so many lime cordials I can drink on a night or red bulls or fucking juices or anything like that , and it's um , yeah , it's .

Speaker 2 49:55

How do you facilitate that ? And with one in three visits to hospitality venues not involving alcohol whatsoever , how do we um ? Again , because I talk about bridging gaps , because I my mantra on things is all the elements . This is a coaching thing as well . All the elements you need to succeed are already there or available to you . It is on your job to find them out and align them in a way in which they work . And in a time when people are , for example , sales are down and our staff turnover is fucking massive and we're like you've got a horrendous drinking culture in your venue . You lead it and your team's hanging out of your ass . They don't respect the no and low category , so they're missing out on sales opportunities . Someone's coming into your venue and ordering a glass of water . They're sitting in your venue and not buying . Anything Like that needs to change in some way . I can't use the word need but you know what I mean .

Speaker 2 50:47

Just in that thing . Oh , we've just got this thing and you need to try this . Why didn't you try this ? Let's put this on the table . And just again , people don't really want to think about it . They come in and be like , oh , what alcohol free drinks have you got ? And I always do it . Where I look at the psychology of menus , I think it's really interesting . My drinks take the , generally take a similar format where there are a lot of my twisted classics , because you already know the espresso , martini , porn . Some people know them and I always try and align it with what people already know .

Speaker 2 51:16

So when you're doing alcohol free drinks , what would someone order in your bar ? That is just a standard . And you think coke , pepsi , lemonade , that sort of thing . What is the natural upsell for them ? So you then go um , do you have I just got a bottle of Coke . Why don't you try something like an alcohol-free peach iced tea ? Because that is . Do you know what I mean ? There's a link there , because they're both topped up with Coke .

Speaker 2 51:39

So it's the idea of being like it's okay if someone comes in and goes , can I get a salad ? I'm like , why don't you try a steak that the person wants , whereas if you can make the upsell as easy as possible for the server , for the bartender , for whatever . So , yes , again it comes to logistics and facilitating that sale . But again , people literally just not having the options , like you said there about your more edgy venues , for example there's just not the selection , there's just not the opportunity's just not the selection , there's just not the the opportunity there to get creative with it and and to explore all these things .

Speaker 2 52:17

Um , then again , maybe that's a culture and a mindset thing , that , um , we did a training um the other day and they said that some of their , some of their guests , they won't even drink out of the new shaped glasses for their beer , for like john smith's and like boddington's and stuff . So actually and I think this is really cute from a hospitality point of view but they went and hunted down the old glasses so that their regulars , who have been drinking that drink for 30 years , will feel it , feels comfortable , because as far as they're concerned , they're like , oh , all the money they're putting to building this glassware and some some 65 year old man's just like no it . It's just like no , fucking no chance .

Speaker 1 52:50

Um so I think that's a really good example . Sorry to jump in there that's a good example of of service , right ? So these , these old boys , they're like no , this is what I like , this is how I want to have it . And someone's gone out their way to go , do you know what ? Well , let me go and hunt down those glasses and provide that for you , because that would make your experience in my venue better yeah it's the same thing on the other side .

Speaker 1 53:11

It's about making somebody's experience in your venue better . That's what service is about . So just as you , someone will go to the effort to go and find those glasses , someone's go to the effort to go and make sure that there is a decent selection of low and no drinks for somebody else to try that's all service is right absolutely , and it's that , um , I think we're bringing it back to the hospitality gap .

Speaker 2 53:33

You mentioned how many venues are closed . I think it was 5 300 venues closed down in 2023 , which is fucking scary . Uh , there's also 190 000 hospitality vacancies . So hospitality , unfortunately , is just taking who it can get and they're not putting the time and the effort into track . I'd say effort that sounds really facetious . They're not putting the time and the effort into I'd say effort that sounds really facetious . They don't have the time and they don't have the the resources to be able to train these people up , and they're also scared on a number of levels because people just leave .

Speaker 2 54:04

And I saw I was actually on a listening to a call today what's worse for hospitality ? Not training someone and they stay , or training someone and they leave . And it's a really interesting sort of dynamic there . They've just been like worst comes to worst . At least fucking train them on what you sell behind the bar . They don't need to be the world's greatest bartender , but if someone goes , what alcohol free options you've got and you just go , oh , I don't know . And you're like you're fighting an uphill battle from the start . Not only do do you not have a big range . You can't even get it out from behind the bar because they don't know where it is , they don't understand it and they don't respect the category and have an understanding of the category as well .

Speaker 2 54:39

So , yeah , um , I think it's a cultural thing as well . Um , yeah , yeah , there's just work to be done . And it's that frustrating thing , isn't it , that it's the opportunities that are massive , the opportunities to You're gifted a space in hospitality to make people's day and you're gifted thousands . Well , it depends where you work in Schloss , thousands of fucking opportunities or hundreds , or however many people come into your venue to make people's day . We're very quick to focus on the one bad experience or the one customer that was a bit difficult and this sort of thing , but the number of times you can just make people's day and someone go oh , I don't drink , oh , great , and it's I always think of , like , think of it as an opportunity and to showcase how good you are .

Speaker 2 55:21

And I maintain it takes more skill to create a tasty alcohol free beverage than it does to create an alcoholic one , because there's an embarrassment of riches when it comes to alcohol and we are taught how to mix alcohol . We are not taught how to mix alcohol free . It mixes differently . It's missing a key , a key component , but it's missing a core component of the of the liquid . You shake it and it , literally it mixes differently . There is less choice and there's probably less options behind your bar . So to make something that is tasty , stands up to the to the taste test , looks instagrammable as well . That , for me , takes more skill as a bartender than it does to to make most not most of the drinks on your menu . But you know , I mean like an alcohol-free equivalent sorry , an alcoholic equivalent versus an alcohol-free it's definitely , definitely a skill .

Speaker 1 56:05

I remember I used to while I was still working in bars . Before I was was into the world of low and low . I used to ask bartenders to come along and to make me a cocktail , but also to make me a fresh lemonade . It's amazing how many people can't balance a lemonade . You're making this fresh . Actually , you need to know how to balance a drink without the alcohol . That does half the work for you the alcohol .

Speaker 2 56:29

That does half the work . Yeah , for you basically makes it easy . It makes it easier as that .

Speaker 2 56:32

I think that it's wild how we change and it's good to see people are making adaptions to it and , like the alchemist , gets a shout out because they've moved their no and low section to the front of their menu , which is really cool , so it's not like a forgotten section . Um , when we do menu sign-offs , we start with the alcohol free , because I have literally seen it where owners of businesses have been shit-faced signing off a menu and they've gone . Right , you need to sign off the alcohol free drinks . And they've just gone , couldn't give a shit and just walked out the venue and it's just been like , if you don't care about it , that mantra and that culture feeds down to the people serving it , so they won't give a shit about it either . You're missing out on the opportunity , do you know ?

Speaker 1 57:06

absolutely , absolutely . I love that , putting it first and showing how important it is . Uh , aaron , I realize that we've taken uh quite a bit of your time , but I've got a couple more bits for you before I let you go , if that's okay . Yeah , um , I wanted to um circle back to something you were saying before . We press record , which is uh connected to your , your recovery

Recovering WITH alcohol

Speaker 1 57:25

, training , and we were talking about days , uh , counting your days , or rather , the lack thereof . There's a lovely woman who helps me with my social media . She's also in that group that you were mentioning and she got really nervous because she wanted to put a post out on her Instagram saying I don't count my sober days and this why ? And she was nervous that she was going to get a lot of backlash because there are so many people and so many uh posts about you know , shout , how many days you've been sober and what's your count , and people celebrating that , which is obviously fantastic for those that feel that they need it . You yourself don't count your days , do you ?

Speaker 2 58:05

okay , no , it's um . Your recovery journey is your own and um you define it however you define it . So it's actually been really empowering , be it going through recovery coach training , and one of the parts of training is say that you can still drink and be in recovery , or you can be in recovery from one thing but still jamming with , whether it be through drinking , drugs , gambling , insert , whatever vice , and it's actually really empowering that I have been able to sit on the call and be like I still drink . But this is the way that I live my life now and you saw some people in the call being like it just could . They never occurred to them because their recovery , their individual recovery journey , had been all or nothing and that's fine for them . But we really place it like it's not a competition .

Speaker 2 58:52

The only person like if you're in recovery , the only person that is important is yourself , and there's different ways of doing it as well as medically assisted . Some people do it on their own , some people get official training , some people have sponsors like whatever your recovery journey is , I describe myself as a man in sustained recovery . I don't really need to go into any more detail than that . I also help other people that are either in recovery or want to get into recovery , and that's all I need to say . I don't need to say that I have X number of years or this , this or whatever , and that's my journey . Some people , it's really important for them to do that . And some people that go like , oh , I'm 20 years sober and that's like they're in charge of their business and that aspect might win them more business in terms of like if they're a recovery coach , for example , I just don't care about it , because I've spoken to so many people and they're like oh , I'm only six weeks . I'm like what are you saying ? Only for Anyone that's gone through six months a year , 10 years , they have to get through that six weeks . It's just the linear nature of time . There's literally nothing you can fucking do about it . So , yeah , we place far too much importance on how long it's been . I feel personally , this is my opinion on how long it's been , rather than where we are now and how I am as a human being and how I live my life compared to how I used to . You can have people that are 10 years in recovery and still making breakthroughs . You can have people that are fighting a daily battle . But six months in , they're like I'm so far away and so far from where I used to be . And that's when I started making changes . I was only going to do 30 days . Do 30 days and see what happens , and this was lockdown .

Speaker 2 1:00:27

I think lockdown did this for a lot of people . Your body heals remarkably quickly when you give it the resources it needs , which is time and space , and you fuel it properly and you sleep and all the shit that we know about we actually just don't do because life and society are busy and this sort of thing . And I did 50 days and then I did 100 days and I said to myself I'm going to 100 days and then I'm going to go for a drink , and I said that my first drink was going to be a Guinness outside the Oast House . I actually got to 106 days before I had a drink because I got to 100 days . I actually just didn't want it . I wasn't really asked . I made the mistake of being a man of my word and having the worst Guinness , not because the Guinness was bad , but because it was 30 degrees outside and Guinness . I was just thinking , oh , that was awful , but anyway . But that's the answer is what it is . But then that's the thing , that's how I define my recovery journey .

Speaker 2 1:01:17

And we talked a little bit about spirits . I don't touch wine , I don't touch spirits . I occasionally will drink a cocktail if I'm developing one because it's important to my job . I don't sit and go out and drink and drink cocktails and that's that's what I define as my recovery journey . And actually having those boundaries around it and setting my own , setting my own rules , is how I've defined my recovery journey .

Speaker 2 1:01:38

There's a weird thing that with the recovery academy we say you are in recovery . If you say you are in recovery and that sort of can feel a bit controversial for people . I'm like , if you say you're in recovery and you are making steps to better yourself , in whatever capacity , and again it's your rules , then that's valid because it's your fucking journey , it's no one else's . And if other people want to get involved in that in the kindest way , they can go fuck themselves . Because I mean , why would you ? If you're in a recovery journey and someone is on theirs , why would you judge them for that ? Because you're both trying to get better , you support them , you don't judge them .

Speaker 1 1:02:15

I love that Amazing Aaron , if somebody wants to get in touch with you . Yes , wonders of modern technology there , so it may be a bit of a skip in the edit .

Speaker 1 1:02:25

There was a slight technical issue on my side Note to self charge the camera before you start recording . Um , aaron , before we were so rudely interrupted , I was going to ask you um to uh to my last two questions . Uh , the first one is where can people go to go and find out more about you , more about either the consultancy or the recovery coaching , wherever you'd like to send consultancy or the recovery coaching , wherever you'd like to send them ?

Speaker 2 1:02:50

so at the moment my website is still under construction , um , because I have a number of a number of moving parts . Um , easiest way is to email me at aaron , at let's push things forwardcouk , because aaron is spelled a double r o n ? Um . I have like intro decks and I have I'm partnered with a number of um different companies that sort of support hospitality and things as well . And again , to just try and make things as stressful as easy in the hospitality industry , we're working on solution pieces for hospitality around recovery coaching as well . So , yeah , easiest way is to email me . We'll set up a meeting , we'll have a chat and I'm sure there's ways that I can support people either in hospitality or in recovery coaching or ideally both .

Speaker 1 1:03:33

Fantastic . I will make sure that that is in the show notes and captions and decisions and all the other other places . As you can tell , I'm very technically savvy , so I'm sure it'll be , absolutely .

Speaker 2 1:03:39

I don't have a website and then you're like just just follow the links . Fine , just send a carrier pigeon .

Speaker 1 1:03:44

Hope for the best . Um , my last question is one that I ask everybody who comes on the show , whether you be a brand founder , an industry expert , just a man in the know ,

What is Arron drinking?

Speaker 1 1:03:54

and that is to help spread the love of this low-note industry that we are in . So , uh , expand your imagination . Pretend it's what's raining here .

Speaker 1 1:04:03

I'm not sure what it's like in manchester at the moment , but it's been hailstoned , so let's pretend it's not raining and hailing and you are off to a nice sunny barbecue with some mates and for this day you've decided that you're drinking low and no , what are your go-to drinks that you're taking with you to enjoy on a nice sunny day ?

Speaker 2 1:04:24

Cool . So , in terms of alcohol-free beer , I'd give a shout out . We know them well Rich Casement , clean Break Brewing . Their Progression Ale is absolutely fantastic .

Speaker 2 1:04:35

I am more of a stout guy than anything else , so I think if it was more a case of it's raining , we'd go to a pub rather than a barbecue . Guinness Zero is something that I always chat about . Big Drop they're stouts in terms of that's alcohol-free . A barbecue , um . Guinness zero , something that I always , I always chat about , um , big drop their stouts . Um , in terms of that's alcohol free , it says a weird one . It's not really low , but it's sort of on the on the cusp of low .

Speaker 2 1:04:57

I really like joseph holt have their own stouts and it's not the trail blazer stat which is 4.5 . They have a stat which is 3.4 percent and it's like . It's like guinness light and it's fucking beautiful , it's fucking delicious , and there's only there's two joseph halt pubs in my village and neither of them sell it , which is great . So there's only one venue in central manchester that I am , I know that sells it , but I think that's really interesting . Just just shine a spotlight on there . Um , a lot of uh breweries are changing from 3.8 to 3.4 for tax reasons . Um , they say it's the light and the alcohol , so it's nice for tax . But I agree with that and I'm actually a big fan of that because it just means , oh , what you've done is they've actually brought more things into approaching the low category again . Um , so , yeah , there's a bit of a bit of a hidden gem , um if I was going to barbecue , I was freaking low .

Speaker 2 1:05:48

Um , shout out to shoff . Obviously they've just released their prickly pear into um , into the uk market , which is really , really cool . Um , and the other one would probably be paulana radler , so it's the 2.5 percent paulana , which is really good . Um , and then we're done as well . Actually , that's the last one I probably tried was left alcohol free .

Speaker 2 1:06:07

I remember having that in uh in airport in belgium and it's weird because I don't actually like uh left as a beer itself . I'm a big fan of black belgian beers and this sort of thing . I just , I just just never sat right with me . I really like the alcohol free one . Um , okay , and yeah , I think that's really really interesting because me and you both drink . We have a good comparison between the alcohol product and the alcohol free product . But some people are just like it's a flat out no one alcohol . Sometimes they're only comparing it to what they remember the alcohol , what it used to be like , or a past experience of it , which could be like yeah , this drink's horrible . When's the last time you had it 10 years ago ?

Speaker 1 1:06:42

okay , each their own yeah , I think um uh interest , you mentioned the left and that you like that sort of wheat bit , so have you . Have you had the mazel weiss ?

Speaker 2 1:06:52

I haven't had the mazel weiss mazel weiss , it's mind-blowing .

Speaker 1 1:06:55

I tried it and it's absolutely delicious . If you like that kind of style , definitely recommend you check that one out . Um , the , um , the . What was the ? The stout one you mentioned , joseph ? Uh , joseph holtz , joseph holtz , do they do that in canned or bottles ? Because my husband loves the guinness zero . It's like he . He was never on this sort of low no journey with me . To begin with he was always very supportive , but he's like off you pop , love you carry on um .

Speaker 1 1:07:20

And now his complete relationship with alcohol has completely changed yeah and he loves guinness zero because he used to love guinness and now he's like guinness zero is amazing , so I'm always on the lookout for something similar yeah so if that one comes in cans or bottles and I'll get him to give it a try , I'm not entirely sure . Did you know that , guinness ?

Speaker 2 1:07:38

used to do a two percent version . No , I had no idea about this my mate at uni who we used to bartend together and he's not been anywhere near the bartending world for decades . He was like do you know about this guinness , two percent ? And I was like you've made it up , that's not true . And he , and he showed me a picture and it was just like just on , like a tesco website somewhere like ages and ages and ages ago . Yeah , and they used to do a two percent guinness and I was just like that's why ,

Speaker 2 1:08:04

I didn't know that , yeah , they used , and then they went for fucking it and obviously they had to recall all the zero , didn't they ? And there was a bit of a rigmarole around that and things as well . So , yeah , I think that I've talked to a couple of people . I don't know if it's just a hospitality bartender thing , but the idea of having like a 1.5% or like 2% stout on draft , that's like not ice cold , but you know , I mean it's just like guinness extra cold , something like that . I just be like I just think , and it's nitro charged and stuff as well , so it's got the mouthfeel and the section or something . I just think it would be a game changer . I just think it'd be absolutely class . I agree .

Speaker 2 1:08:37

But I understand that I was speaking to um , the guys at cask in manchester and I was like why are table beers so expensive ? And they're like one of the issues is they have to put so much stuff in them to get the flavor profile up . And obviously you said about taking the alcohol out of it , like it's a bit it's a challenge to get the quality . But then you end up in a situation where I think their tableware of 2.5 percent was £6.90 a pint and next to it they've got like real ales that are like £3.80 , for example , do you know ? I mean that sort of thing . So the price point starts to put people off . So how do we bridge that gap ?

Speaker 1 1:09:06

yeah , yeah , because that's going to be a hard sell , because we can talk until we're blue in the face about the fact that alcohol is not the value in your drink , that is not what you are paying for , um , but when you've got such a disparity in price , then it's very hard to get the average joe or josephina to understand that that's what you're paying for and that and why it's worth that amount of money . I think that's part of the ongoing battle . And just to put one back at you in terms of Guinness did you know that Guinness do crisps ?

Speaker 2 1:09:35

Guinness , do crisps , you can get packets of Guinness crisps . Yeah .

Speaker 1 1:09:39

And they taste like Guinness . I mean , I've not tasted them myself because , to be fair , very sorry , can't stand Guinness , okay .

Speaker 2 1:09:51

But , like I said , my husband swears by it . And what does your husband think ?

Speaker 1 1:09:52

about him . He can be the , he can be the yardstick . Yeah , yeah , I'll have to get him to be my , uh , my , my taste , taste tester I don't know how .

Speaker 2 1:09:57

I don't know how I feel about that , because it's just the idea of take a crisp and dip it in your beer , like that , just yeah , there you go yeah , well , I am happy to be proven wrong on that okay , hey , everyone out there can get hold of a packet of uh , guinness crisps .

Speaker 2 1:10:15

Yeah that's really interesting . Honestly , that was the in terms of that . You know we talk about the pub experience . I'm just going to slightly full circle . Um , we're working at the whiskey club . We used to do , um , a taste matching with brucladi and crisps and they used to be like and it was really weird because it was like what do you partner ? Like octomore , the world's most smoky whiskey , and the brand master was like what's it ? Because the cheese and whiskey goes together . And I was like you , you fucking partner 160 pound bottle of whiskey with a 40p packet of crisps . Like yeah , it's fucking great . So I was like there you go in the alcohol free world . What's the food matching ?

Speaker 1 1:10:57

because there's a food matching for wine .

Speaker 2 1:10:58

There's a food matching for , do you know ? I mean , there's everything that part of the salesmanship and you just go . Well , what do we ? How do we enhance that public experience then ?

Speaker 1 1:11:06

someone was asking me that , uh , just a couple of days ago and actually I've been thinking about I need to find somebody to do an article in the magazine about that sort of food pairing and what could go . Well , it's um again . I've never mentioned him before , but luke , at wednesday's domain , they talk a lot about food . They're really , really passionate about the foods that and and having their wines being enjoyed in food moments . Um , I was also interviewing the founders of a ama brewery who , um , they're based in the basque country and they brew kombucha , sparkling pet nat tea , kombuchas between 1.5 and 2.7 percent , but the chief brewer than the co-founders is a michelin starred chef , so he's all about food and he's brewing specifically so that these drinks can go with food and experiences .

Speaker 1 1:11:54

So I think we're going to see a lot more of that coming in as you get more low and no drinks coming through by more producers who are going well , hold on . There are these moments when alcohol and food go so well together .

Speaker 2 1:12:08

Yeah .

Speaker 1 1:12:09

There is a space for me to start making that pairing and that connection so that when you think of this food , you think of this non-alcoholic drink yeah , and it's how do you take things ?

Speaker 2 1:12:18

again , to come back to taking things that people already do , do you see what beaver town have just done with their open up campaign ? So they're basically they've created um crisps that match the flavor of beaver town beers . Okay , open up campaigns , you know , when you open up the crisp and you put them down on the table and everyone just helps themselves yeah , yeah , done that . But the idea is there are prompts on it about conversation starters , as they're sort of .

Speaker 2 1:12:40

They've done it with calm , the campaign against living with living miserably yeah , the idea being that's like a bit of a ritual , isn't it in the pub that you go and open those , open those things out , so you then go . How do you work with what you already do and slot in whatever it is that you're doing ? So the idea being that , like , okay , cool , so everyone's going to have a pint . Well , there's alcohol free on draft , so nothing's actually really changing because you're still having a pint with your mates and you're then going . Well , actually , if there's crisps here that are designed to go with all the , with all the alcohol-free products , or bar snacks or anything like that , like what's where ? Do we slot in ?

Speaker 2 1:13:12

But elevate what people already do , because that's essentially what we're doing with no and low , isn't it ? Someone's going . I don't drink , but the only things available to me is juices and coke and standard mixes . Your thing is well , how do we elevate that and how do we get them inspired about it that they want to try an alcohol-free gin and tonic or want to try alcohol-free cocktails and things as well ?

Speaker 1 1:13:30

so yeah , the opportunity is just massive I think there's a definite uh space isn't there for sort of bar snacks companies . You know , do you remember when there was a a while where what was it ? The , the wasabi peas and the rice crackers were just like everywhere ? You couldn't go into a bar without these really hard square orange chili rice crackers that were actually not that nice , but they were everywhere I think they were designed to be dipped in beer .

Speaker 1 1:13:57

I think that was it yeah , they needed something , but there's that gap , isn't there . If we could find like a low no brand and a snack brand that wanted to come together and sort of you know , start to show these partnerships in these spaces and say , look , you can have it for any occasion , whether you want something to nibble on , whether you want a full meal .

Speaker 2 1:14:14

I maintain , with collaboration , you will always , always be greater than the sum of your parts , and that's what we're trying to get people involved with . Is that ? What do people bring to the table ? And it's things like okay , cool if you can get like a major snack distributor to then partner with no and low . Do you know how ? Like in the way that crisps change , they're predominantly unhealthy , so they change to be like oh , they're more baked and there's more spotlight shown on the ingredients and like reducing , like trans fats in it and all this sort of thing . Drinks companies are doing the same thing , do you know ? I mean so everyone is more health conscious than ever . Everyone is just saying , saying like this is the latest thing . It's actually the same as the last thing , but should we less fat in it ? Yeah , your drinks were the same as they were before , but without alcohol in it . It's like we're all sort of heading in the same direction . If we band together , we will move faster and we will make greater steps quicker .

Speaker 1 1:15:15

So yeah , I'm fascinated about , like I said , about the pieces already being there . Someone will do a collaboration and it's that type of thing . You go so obvious why ? Didn't we do that 10 years ago . Yeah , absolutely , aaron . It has been fantastic talking to you uh , I could talk to you for hours .

Speaker 1 1:15:21

Uh , I won't , because that would just be rude , um , but it's been so interesting . I would love , um , perhaps a few months down the line , um , to get you back on again , and it'd be really interesting to talk about the changes , um , perhaps in , say , a year , as your your efforts to get into these bars and these venues to speak to people , and the changing attitudes that you're getting back again . Yeah , um , so that has been brilliant . Thank you so very much , my darling pleasure to be here .

Speaker 2 1:15:48

Thank you so much for your time .