Speaker 1 1:12

And the fastest way to make that happen is for you to go to your shop , bar , restaurant , pub , supermarket and say I want to buy this product , can you please stock it ? Because if they know somebody will buy it , they will put it on the shelves . A beer that was like 40% ABV , what ? Yeah , this is a public like one of their many , many publicity stunts . They were like , right , we're going to brew a beer that's 40 percent . And they did quite a few of them . One of them was called , like you know , nuclear penguin or something like that I'm a big believer in and I definitely won't name brands at all , because now I am going to be derogatory about some brands . But , okay , made it very clear at that point that this is our trademark and , yes , you can use it , but you need our permission and or you need to pay us for it . Then I think that would be different . But I think that , in my opinion , they've left it too late .

Meeting Rob Fink

Speaker 2 2:01

Hi , hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Founded in 2016 , I believe , by school friends and bandmates . I need to know more about that , definitely . Big Drop is a multi , multi award-winning 0.5 beer brand . Uh , they include . Their range includes five beers plus a raft of specials , one-offs and collabs . The range includes a galactic milk stout , about which our resident beer reviewer for lono drinker magazine , martin dixon , said the mouthfeel is perfect and there is just a touch of dark chocolate on the finish . The added lactose brings a delicious sweetness here which balances everything perfectly . This is a smooth and elegant beer which has no rough edges whatsoever . They also produce the Paradiso Citra , which we reviewed and Martin said about this . This zesty IPA is made with a blend of five different hops and retains the brightness and clarity you would expect . Pale and inviting in the glass . It's a joy to drink .

Speaker 2 3:06

Today I have the pleasure of speaking to CEO and founder , mr Rob Fink . We have a lot of topics to cover , including his recent battle with Alcohol Change UK and their plans for expansion into lands like Australia , singapore and the US that's on top of the 13 or so countries that they are already in and we'll also discuss how you can be a part and support that growth as well . So , without further ado , that is enough from me . Thank you very much , rob . How are you doing today ?

Speaker 1 3:35

Hello , yes , I am doing very well . Thank you very much .

Speaker 2 3:39

Thank you , good to have you here , nice to meet you and to finally get a chance to have a chat . I've obviously come across Big Drop many , many times and I think anyone who's been drinking low or no for more than a weekend has seen a can of Big Drop somewhere

Alcohol-free beer on draught

Speaker 2 3:52

and on draft as well , because I believe you have some on draft in some locations we're getting there with the draft .

Speaker 2 3:58

Yes , we're getting there it's a big um , it's a . It's a big market to get into , isn't it ? The draft ? It's not easy , because trying to get bars to understand the importance of having a low no on draft yeah , there's so many more things to consider than your average big brand it's . It's . I can imagine it's quite a challenge it is a challenge .

Speaker 1 4:16

It is a challenge . Yes , um , we are . We are getting there . Um , I think the pubs now are starting to reach the conclusion that it is important for them to have that choice and that option available to people .

Speaker 2 4:30

Yeah , did you hear about the ? There was a experiment , or that . It was reported by the BBC a little while ago . They had a couple of pubs , I think they were up north , and they had them replace their regular draft with AF and they found that well not all of it , obviously , you know a few lines and they found that there was no downtick in turnover but there was an uptick in sale of alcohol-free options , showing that the pubs didn't lose any money but people bought more alcohol-free draft .

Speaker 1 5:04

I've always argued that that would be the case and I was very pleased to see that survey come out . I think it was the University of Bristol that did it . They had about half a dozen pubs and , as you say , they just subbed out one line for an alcohol-free beer and that was exactly the result that they saw . And my view has always been and it's only , you know , we don't have the money or the resource to go and do huge amounts of research and , you know , get data on this . But the example that I always use is that my local pub is an amazing pub , it's a fantastic pub and I spend a huge amount of time in it .

Speaker 1 5:40

Um , and the landlady has uh , let me get it right eight keg lines , so she sells cask beer as well . She's got about four or five cask lines . She's got eight keg lines and on those and I'll name the brands because they're all good brands and I , you know , really happy to drink all of them . So we've got , um , she's got adnams dry hopped lager , which is a good dry hopped lager from my sort of the suffolk brewery . Adnams from where I am , uh , guinness , of course . Uh , a cider . Two lines of australia carlsberg , birra moretti and another world lager . She used to have vorstein , which is a german lager , and she's a big fan of big drop , so there's no criticism of her and she does indeed stock it packaged in her fridge , but because she's a tied pub she can't put it on draft . My argument to the pub companies has always been look , if somebody walks into a pub and says , could I have a pint of moretti ? And I'm I like moretti , I'm not picking on it , and they say , no , actually we don't have moretti , but we've got wallsteiner or we've got estrella or you know whatever , I can't think there's very many people in this world that sort of throw their toys out of the pram and stomp out of the pub because they can't get that particular world lager . And , as I said , it's not not Moretti , any you know . Insert world lager brand here in this example alcohol-free beer on draft . You're opening up your offering and your service to those people who , as we all know and there are many , many of them out there who are not drinking at that particular time but do want a pint of beer .

Speaker 1 7:31

And I always tell a story which is genuinely a completely true story , which is that I think it was about two or three years ago . Now , me and all of my mates , we have a tradition that we go for a curry on the saturday of the easter weekend easter curry and we've been doing this since the 90s , because we're all very old now , um , and east saturday we go for a curry , and sometimes and we come from all over the country and it depends who who turns up , and it's in ipswich , which is where I live uh , so sometimes there's six of us and sometimes there's 20 of us , um , and a few years ago we all went for a curry . And that weekend , that particular weekend , I knew that I was looking after my kids . The next day , my wife was doing something and she was leaving and I knew that I had to get up . And then my kids were a lot younger , so I couldn't just you know , as I do now leave them to fend for themselves and eat shreddies out of the box . Um , I knew I would have to get up and look after them . So I didn't drink . I said I'm not , I'm not , I'm not going to drink . So I didn't drink during the curry , it's fine . And then we all finished . It's like right , let's go to the pub , true story .

Speaker 1 8:35

So there's a street next to it , at the top of the road , on one side there's a pub and I knew that that pub only sold one particular alcohol-free lager that I don't particularly rate . And at the other end of the street was a pub and I knew that they sold . They didn't sell big drop at the time , but they sold the Adenham's Goshen alcohol-free . They sold Erdinger and then I think they sold one other alcohol-free beer and I knew that they just had a good offering . It was just a good offering of alcohol-free drinks . So we all stood there and it's about 10 of us . I'm the only one who's not drinking . What pub are we going to go to ? Are we going to go to pub A Are we going to go to ? Are we going to go to pub a ? Are we going to go to pub b ? I made the decision for the group as to where we were going to go , so we all trot off to the pub down the road because I know that as a non-drinker on that night I have a better choice . But of course everyone else turns up and they have three glasses of wine and a bottle of wine and six gin and tonics and 17 pints of lager . So it's not .

Speaker 1 9:37

The argument that I always make to pubs is don't think about it in terms of , oh , I have to cater for this one person who decides they're not drinking . It's like no , no , you're going to bring more footfall as a group , you know , to your pub . It's . It's exactly the same with vegan food . If you , if there's a group of six of you , ten of you , where are we going to eat ? Well , you know , we're going to go where . Maybe we might not go to a completely vegan restaurant if you've got 10 meat eaters and one vegan , but you're going to go to the place that's got the best plant-based food options . So , my , that's my argument to sort of pub companies whenever we're talking to them but you know it's still hard they go oh , yeah , that sounds right .

Speaker 2 10:18

Yeah , no , we're not going to do it you're absolutely right , and it's about people looking at the bigger picture , isn't it ? It's not just oh yeah , I've got to have this on the lines and you know , we've got to have this one brand for this one person that comes in . It's about the people that they bring with them . It's about the reputation that you grow for caring for your guests , about wanting to deliver something more than just the bog standard . And 10 guests in one evening that's a lot of money , that's a lot of turnover .

Speaker 1 11:16

that's a lot of money that goes through that person's till instead of that person's deal . And you know , I think you know I'm not the hospitality industry has had an absolutely torrid time over the last few years , for obvious reasons . So I'm not , you know , I'm not critical of the industry , but I think they know that pubs need to evolve , and it's not just about alcohol-free beer , it's just being , being , you know , more of that community hub and offering different things . Because I think the days when these pubs do still exist but you know , excuse me , the the spit and sawdust right , it's a bunch of men and we're going to drink 10 pints of lager and that's it , and the food consists entirely of pork scratchings okay , they do exist , but that's probably not where the industry wants to evolve to . And alcohol-free beer is just part of , I think , how pubs are evolving . As I said , I'm not moaning about it , it just takes time because they're businesses and they don't necessarily move very quickly .

Speaker 2 12:25

You're absolutely right necessarily move very quickly . You're absolutely right . And and it takes brands like you , publications like mine , people like who watch and listen to shows like this , to to let their pubs know what they want as well . The consumers have to make their voices heard , and so many people I still see so many people going oh , you know , if there's nothing available

Consumer Advocacy in Alcohol-Free Market

Speaker 2 12:43

, then I don't normally ask , but you've got to ask because you've got to tell people . I always say to my staff if you don't tell me it's broken , I can't fix it .

Speaker 1 12:51

So tell them that their offering is broken and then they'll know they need to go and fix it completely the number of emails that I get , you know , probably even on a daily basis , from people really nice and really well-intentioned saying things like do you know what you should do ? You should sell beer on draft , that's what you . And I'm like no , uh-huh , yeah , and it's like I can't find you in my local shop . You should sell in that shop . And I always respond very nicely and I say I agree with you and the fastest way to make that happen is for you to go to your shop , bar , restaurant , pub , supermarket and say I want to buy this product . Can you please stock it ? Because if they know somebody will buy it , they will put it on the shelves , because otherwise it's me saying to them I think people will buy this . That's my opinion and here's what we've done and what I can show you up till now . But I can't show them .

Speaker 1 13:42

Yeah , look , here's the six people who I know are going to come into your pub and drink this beer . So you're absolutely right . It's about the consumers and I come from a very different background . I was a lawyer for a long time before I started this . So I have no , or I do now , but at the time I didn't really understand the power that the consumer has . You just walk into a pub and say , oh , you don't have this beer . If you put it on , I will drink it and I will pay you for it . As simple as that . Oh right , okay . Who sells that ? What's the ?

Speaker 2 14:14

brand . You know where do I get it from ? That's , that's the key . It happened here . I live , uh , I live in a place called carlshorton , um , which is just on the outskirts of london , and it's a very small sort of villagey sort of feel and a new wine bar opened up a few months ago and I went and I said , oh , this is gorgeous , it's lovely . You know all the wooden tables and the flowers in the corner , all those lovely bits . And I had a look around and the guy was showing me around very proud and I said so question do you have any alcohol free or low alcohol wines ? And he looked at me blankly . I was okay , that's , that's a no . Then he went out his way . He went and got two different wines to put on his shelves the next time he saw me walking past , because it's one of those places where you catch people as they walk past he was like hiya , just so you know , I got these in .

Speaker 2 14:58

It was wonderful . A couple of weekends later , a group of friends , we all , went out for a drink . And where did we go ? We went to the wine bar and he came over so happily giving me the bottle of wine , said you want this one , or do you want this one ? And then came back and asked me how was it ? Was that a good wine ? Did you enjoy it ? Have I got the right one in ? Absolutely loved it now it sits in his window for people walking past to see it .

Speaker 1 15:21

Yeah , that's it that's .

Speaker 2 15:22

That's all we want . Is that that care , attention , to service , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 15:26

Yeah , absolutely , and it's really fascinating actually to have seen over the last few years how everybody is talking about how fast alcohol-free generally is growing and I don't get involved in the AF Spirits or the AF Wine , I don't know anything about that . But alcohol-free beer in the UK , about the af wine , I don't know anything about that . But you know , alcohol free beer in the uk about 30 growth year on year , which is enormous compared to beer , alcoholic beer but it's off a very small base and I think the growth is there . But consumers still need to not be educated . And I was going gonna say that's , that's the wrong word . I think people are smart , they don't need to be educated , but I think it's it's a journey that we're going on in parallel . It's it's the you can , you know , bring a horse to water , but you can't make it drink .

Speaker 1 16:19

I'm sure there's loads of cliches that I could use . There's a I saw in the us there'sa brand who had got a listing on an airline a domestic airline and it was like , well , this is amazing , this is amazing , and then it's been delisted . And so I do think there's this like we're going on a journey together the consumer and the brands and we're going to grow it together , but I don't think one can go faster than the other . So , you know , your bottle of wine is a great example where this guy he's got it in now and you're going to go back to that bar and you're going to buy it and you're going to drink it . But other people need to do it as well , his brand or whoever that brand is . They need to make noise and tell people about it . He needs to make noise and tell people about it and we'll all sort of you know , do it together , um , but it's , yeah , it's , it's really interesting to , you're right it's a joint effort , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 17:11

it's no one faction that is responsible for the , the growth of the market , and and in no market is that true ? You know , there's no market that exists in a vacuum of just this industry like , yeah , we're gonna be huge and all of a sudden they're making millions . But you have to take people with you , and I do think I don't think that education is necessarily the wrong word . I think it is . It's , you know , it's in its purest form . It's just educating , informing , sharing that knowledge and letting people know that these options exist and that these are the ways that you can enjoy them um I can see that we could go on .

Speaker 2 17:44

Uh , lots of rabbit holes . So I'm going to bring us back around , because I want to talk a little bit more about you and the brand before we get to some other really interesting bits . So can you tell us just in your own words wherever you want to start ? I mentioned that you launched in 2016 .

Speaker 1 18:00

Is that correct , and it was you and James is your co-founder . James is my co-founder . Yeah , is my co-founder , yeah .

Speaker 2 18:07

And you met in a band , is that right ?

Speaker 1 18:10

We met in school . I've known James for more years than I care to remember , back

High school band rivals turned co-founders

Speaker 1 18:14

in the 90s yeah , oh , I miss the 90s . Yeah , no , we met at school . I've known James since I started high school . So , yeah , the early 90s . I've known James since I started high school . So yeah , the early 90s . And there were two rival bands in my high school Dark Seed , that was me Too much rock for one hand got to have double devil's horns , okay . And James was in Brome Ooh , we didn't like Brome , okay , anyway . So we got to know each each other . It was all very friendly and nice , and then we played gigs and whatever , and then so you were like the Oasis and the Blur Of your high school .

Speaker 1 18:55

Exactly , it was just like you know , rock rivals , but grittier .

Speaker 1 19:00

Yeah , that's right , rivals with Bad leather coats and Blodgy Hair . With bad leather coats and dodgy hair . I , uh , I'll tell you a funny story . I grew my hair long , so I started growing it when I was about 15 this has no relation to , uh , alcohol-free drinks , but it's quite a funny story so I grew my hair long , excuse me , yeah , until I was about 16 or something like that , and it got down to my shoulders . It was like shoulder , like he's wearing ponytail sometimes . It was down .

Speaker 1 19:26

Anyway , I was in a shop . I always remember this . I was in a shop with my mum in colchester and I had it down and I was walking around . It was a clothes shop and I turned around and really said , and I thought I was going to bump into someone . I said , oh , I'm sorry , like that . And then I realized it was a mirror and I was about to bump into myself . And then the third thing I realized was that I thought I was going to bump into a girl , and so I was like , oh dear , okay , right , no , we're getting rid of that . So then the hair came off At the age of 16 , the sudden realisation that you thought you looked like a girl .

Speaker 2 19:58

Yeah , that was unacceptable . Not other people telling you you look like just you yourself thinking .

Speaker 1 20:03

Other people you look like a girl yourself . Thinking other people you look like a girl . No , I don't . I look really cool because I'm a drummer in a band with long hair . Of course I look cool , but I just realized in that moment I look like a girl and the hair was gone , and the hair was gone yeah , that was it anyway .

Speaker 1 20:14

So , yeah , no relation to drinks , um , well , called free , but it's quite funny anyway . So I met him in high school in , yeah , and then later on , as the years progressed , we've played in various bands , um , and uh , he lives in ipswich , uh , I moved to london , I lived in london for about 15 years , uh , but we obviously were still friends , played in various bands , and that's how I know him .

Speaker 2 20:38

Yeah , sorry I was gonna say so . How did you go from playing in bands to becoming a lawyer ? Yeah to going . Do you know what I'm gonna make ?

Speaker 1 20:47

a beer did you know , anything about making beer no , I still don't know anything about making oh okay I'm not supposed to say that .

Speaker 1 20:52

They tell me if I say that I have no idea how you make beer . Um , so , yeah , so what happened ? So I yeah , as it turns out , dark seed was never destined for greatness , uh , which was probably unsurprising . So I became a lawyer instead , worked in london , um , but the the sort of the origin story really

From Law to Crafting Alcohol-Free Beer

Speaker 1 21:12

is that I I'd started my own law firm , so I had to set up a law firm with another guy in the city . Uh , he did all the hard work , all the law , and I went out and did the networking and business development and that was sort of really , really sexy . I was an insurance lawyer .

Speaker 1 21:29

Yeah , I know , it sounds awesome , doesn't ?

Speaker 2 21:33

it . It sounds wonderful .

Speaker 1 21:34

It does . But actually the insurance industry was just at the tail end of what was quite a hedonistic time for the insurance industry . So it was notorious for deals being , you know , six in the evening after a five-hour lunch over brandy's on the back of a napkin , that kind of thing , right , um . And so business development did involve a lot of standing in pubs in the afternoon , uh , requiring hollow legs in order to , um , consume vast quantities of young's ordinary ale , um , which , as I always say , if you've just turned 30 , is quite a good way to make a living . So that's what I did .

Speaker 1 22:13

So I did all of that stuff . And then my then business partner , he did all the hard work when I got the cases in , but what that meant was that I did all my drinking back to front . So I drank during the day because it was my job . So then I'd sort of , you know , roll home at six in the evening , half cut , you know , not every day , but you know , a couple of days a week I'd roll , and it's like , you know , six or seven in the evening , or you'd go out for dinner with someone after that and you know , you just end up drinking too much . And then we had our first kid in 2014 and the issue became that what you can't do is put away seven pints of ale and come home and give a baby a bath .

Speaker 2 22:57

They don't like that best mix I like it .

Speaker 1 23:00

Social services don't like it . Just generally , no one's a fan no one's a fan yeah .

Speaker 1 23:04

So I was like , ah , what I didn't do ? What like air quotes ? Normal , normal people with normal jobs . You work , you have a sandwich at lunchtime , you come home , you give the baby a bath , you put the baby to bed and then you have a glass of wine . That that's the order in which normal people do it . I was drinking back to front .

Speaker 1 23:22

So I decided that the answer to that was I just stopped drinking so I didn't drink . And when I went to the pub with all of my contacts and network and underwriters and brokers and stuff like that , I would buy two bottles of the mass-produced lager that everyone knows was the only alcohol-free beer that was knocking around , however many years ago , 10 years ago , buy two of those , pour them into a pint glass and that's what I would stand and drink . So I'd just drink alcohol-free beer like that . And then I don't know if it was one day , but I was just no , I'll tell you what it was and if we're giving shout-outs to other brands one day . So I'd done this . I didn't drink for about nine months , so I didn't touch a drop for about nine months , and one day , like halfway through this stint , went to a party with a bunch of other lawyers went to the bar , two bottles of said brand , please , sure . And the woman behind the bar , she said , yeah , I've got that , or , if you like , I've got Nanny State from Brewdog . And I was like , oh never , never heard of that , like genuinely you'd never heard of it . Tried it and I was like , oh , my God , this has got hops in it . Like this isn't a lager , this is like . I mean at the time it was just like scales falling from eyes and goodness me . So then I ordered , I went to dry drinkercom , which probably your , your listeners and you will will know um , and ordered every single alcohol-free beer that stewart had in stock at the time . And he lived , he lived around the corner from me at the time . He lived in teddington and I lived in twickenham . So I met him and he's you know , we still talk now . He's a nice guy um , drank them all .

Speaker 1 25:10

But what I realized was , apart from this nanny state , that I'd found there was no craft beer in that selection . So what you could get were lagers or German vice beers , beers , wheat beers , but that was about it . I think there was one dark beer from the Czech Republic Czechia is it called now I think Called Bernard , I think it was , which was quite nice , and the one that I couldn't find was a Stout . It was the Stout and I like darker beers , so I don't . I'm not really . If the mercury tips 25 , I'll have a lager , but under 25 I want it's literally the . The darkness of my beer increases with the lower the temperature and because we live in the uk , I drink a lot of dark beer . You know , the higher it gets , the lighter the beer .

Speaker 1 26:04

Okay , couldn't find a stout and I just thought this is stupid . Why ? Why has nobody made any decent alcoffery craft ? It didn't exist as a thing . A nanny state was actually created as a joke . It was , it was a joke bit . So this is a good story . So and this is all out there , I'm not telling tales rudolph brewed , um , a beer that was like 40 abv .

Speaker 1 26:30

What , yeah , is that public ? Like another one of their many , many publicity stunts , they were like right , we're going to brew a beer that's 40 , and they did quite a few of them . One of them was called , like you know , nuclear penguin or something like this . Anyway , cue , lots of faux media outrage about this . Oh , this is terrible . You're encouraging people to drink blah , blah blah . So they said , oh no , we're just doing beers . We can do 40% , but we can also do 0.5% . But they called it Nanny State as a derogatory title . They were saying this is the Nanny State beer , this is what the Nanny State want you to drink . So they were coming at it from a different angle . They weren't coming at it . It's still around , it's still produced . I haven't drunk it for a while , but it's still out there .

Speaker 2 27:17

Still in the supermarkets , yeah absolutely .

Speaker 1 27:19

Yeah , well , it's BrewDog , of course it's in the bloody supermarket , yeah .

Speaker 2 27:23

Oh God .

Speaker 1 27:28

Not wrong , and I was looking at again . No , no , this it should be a positive choice . You know , I don't want to drink because I'm doing a positive thing , because I've got my bubba here that I want to give a bath and put to bed . So why is no one doing this in a sort of a positive way ? And and the stout was the one that I couldn't find . So the stout was the , the launching pad for the . Hmm , what if I did this ?

Speaker 2 27:49

so then I did yeah , and you did , and and apparently , according to all the reviews and the many , many awards , you did it bloody well , I mean yeah , let's not blow the trumpet too loudly , but in terms of the sounds , I genuinely always say that that's just a good beer , full stop .

Speaker 1 28:12

And and for me , the . So I was still working as a lawyer , so it started in 2016 , but I still it was .

Speaker 1 28:18

It was only a side hustle okay , it was a side hustle for about 10 months after that six , six to 10 months , something like that , I can't remember and but during that period I'd gone up to uh , manchester , liverpool , liverpool , gone to liverpool to a conference of publicans , landlords , landladies , publicans , um , and club soda , who , again , I'm sure you know , laura and you see it um , club soda . They were there and they had given out bottles of , or I asked them to give out bottles of , the , the galactic stout . It wasn't called Galactic then , it was just Stout . Okay , and there's a guy called Pete Brown who's a beer writer , really really nice guy , writes brilliant stuff about beer and pubs really good guy . And I didn't really know him at all , but I knew him by reputation . And he got up on the stage , he was one of the speakers and he said to all these publicans he said right , I've never done this before . I'm going to talk to you today about alcohol-free beer .

Speaker 1 29:19

And everyone in the audience was like , oh , alcohol-free beer , pete , I don't want to talk about alcohol-free beer . He said no , no , no , shut up , listen to me , because I know what I'm talking . Just offer this rubbish option . You need to do more . And he said and this is a bottle of big drop , milk . Chocolate milk stout we used to call it . We stopped calling it chocolate milk stout in the end because people got confused as to why we were trying to sell them chocolate milk , but so now it's just called a milk stout .

Speaker 1 29:45

Um , and he said this . No , no , he said is it ? The only difference between water and beer is that if you're thirsty and you drink a pint of water , you don't want another pint of water because you're not thirsty anymore . If you're thirsty and you drink a pint of good beer , you want another one because it tastes nice . And he said this is the first alcohol-free beer that I have drunk , and afterwards genuinely wanted another one of the same . And I was like bosh done . Yep , there we go , I'll have that job done . So I do genuinely think it was the first beer we ever made . We've not really messed with the recipe at all , um , for however many years that that is six , seven years , nearly eight , oh God . But yeah , I do think it's a good bit . I do think it's a good bit .

Speaker 2 30:40

Well , I mean you say not to blow the trumpet too loudly , but I was having a look on your website at your awards

Winning awards and going international

Speaker 2 30:47

and my fingers got tired of scrolling . You know it's just hats off to you . If I wore a hat , I'd be taking it off right now because you've got the range . You've got five , as I mentioned in the introduction . You then do lots of collaborations and one-off specials and you've expanded this from a side hustle . You know you're living that the entrepreneur's dream , which is to go from side hustle to international concern .

Speaker 1 31:14

Yeah , no , it's more of a nightmare . I will be honest , okay .

Speaker 2 31:20

Oh dear , don't tell them that .

Speaker 1 31:22

No , I know . Yeah , you're supposed to say you live the dream , aren't you ? No , I am having a good time . I am having a good time .

Speaker 2 31:27

So tell me about the expansion then , because you're in 13 countries at the moment , but Because I understand you're in 13 countries at the moment but you're looking to go into some more territories . Is that correct ?

Speaker 1 31:37

So the way that we built the business was we've always used contract breweries to produce Big Drop , so we've never owned a brewery . I have no desire to build a brewery or run a brewery . We've used other breweries to produce our beer . The brewery or run a brewery , we've used other breweries to produce our beer . Okay , so that does mean that we have produced beer in uk , we've done it in canada , we've done it in australia and we do it in the us . We've we knocked canada and australia on the head because it was too expensive to keep those markets going , although they did very well . But we are exported from the UK into about 13 different countries , most of them in Europe . But we still contract brew in the US and it's gone well . It's gone very well in the us , um , and we are , uh , probably about to sign an agreement for singapore . So somebody in a brewery in singapore will produce big drop beer and then it will be sold there , um , and I sort of and I took the view when we started that , if the thing about alcohol-free beer is , it's still a very tiny percentage of total beer volume in any market . So it's growing fast but , as I said , off a small base . So in the UK , I think it's now about 2% of total beer volume , which is about twice what it was five or six years ago , and you've got markets like Spain , 11% , germany , 16% , but that is by far and away the biggest market for alcohol-free beer . Us still just about less than one percent . So what ?

Speaker 1 33:35

What that means , though , is that if you want to build a business which has a meaningful revenue for a beer business , my view was always that you had to go wide . The the traditional view on how you build a successful brewing company is that you go deep , not wide . So and there are plenty of very good craft breweries that do just that . So they set themselves up in bristol , leeds , manchester , london , whatever it is , and their focus is right . We want to , we want to own this area here .

Speaker 1 34:13

We could never do that , because you can't get big enough . If you know the total revenue that we could generate in , say , east anglia , where I am , is only and you're never going to get . You know , I'm not going to get two percent of total beer volume . I'm probably going to get best case scenario , I'm going to get ten percent of two percent , because guess what other brands are available and they have more money and size and people than I do . So if you go tap away at a computer and go , well , that doesn't stack up to a business . So you have to go national and then , in my view , you have to go wider as well . So that was the driver behind taking it overseas .

Speaker 2 34:52

Yeah , it brings to mind the analogy . You know that the sort of the big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big . Is that the right way around ? Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , that's it but it is just that you're right . You know you could stay where you are and do your best to dominate this one sector and one area and you'll probably be very well known and and respected in there . But then there is a cap , isn't there ? There's only so much you can do in that one geographical location .

Speaker 1 35:19

Yeah , that's it . And the market , and the market will grow , it will get bigger . But I think somebody there was something that came out the other day that said if , growing at the speed that it's growing at the moment , you know , to get to 10 percent of total beer volumes , it would take until 2050 or something like that . It was . You know , that's a long . I don't intend to be doing this when it's 2050 , if I'm lucky enough to still be around , you know .

Speaker 2 35:44

So that was my view , so other people have done it differently , but that's that's what we did but you know , and I think that that you know , people are attacking this from different angles , aren't they ? And there are brands that are doing this different ways . It's a case I think . Only time will tell and we're only going to know what's going to work best once it's worked . It's , it's so new , it's so small in comparison to total beer sales and you're right , the growth is phenomenal . Percentage-wise , it's still really small . Nobody can know . Somebody asked me the other day how are we going to know when this is ? I said I don't know . We have to just watch and see how this is going to play out , because there's new brands coming in all the time . There are new consumers coming in all the time . Sadly , there are some brands going out on their consumers . It's coming in all the time . Sadly , there are some brands going out on the consumers .

Speaker 2 36:36

It's a very , very , very high churn rate at the moment as we all try to come together and just understand this market and understand this space you're completely right and I , I find it's not frustrating .

Speaker 1 36:46

But I , you know , I still have conversations with people , whether it it's , you know , buyers at retailers or pub companies , or investors or people who are starting up new brands , and even now they're coming to me and they're saying it's like people are drinking less , aren't they ? People are drinking . There's a great opportunity here . I've just I don't know , I've been doing this for like eight years , I know . So it's like . It's like it's like , oh god , it's taken so long to get to the place where now , you know , I don't think anybody thinks it's a fad people drinking less , and that there are these , you know , grown-up , alcohol-free beverages available . Nobody think it thinks it's a fad . But that's . That position really is only cemented over the last couple of years . Before that , it was like no , no , no , this is just stupid . No one's going to drink this stuff . Who's going to drink this stuff ? And yeah , you're right , there's a huge amount of churn . People are coming in , people are trying stuff , retailers are trying stuff , brands are going bust . It's an insanely hard market to raise investment in at the moment because the economy is not great . Um , and if you want to grow a brand fast in this space . Then you need investment .

Speaker 1 38:07

I was talking to somebody so in the us where we're going to partner with a few different breweries around the US to brew and sell the beer so that we can get a national footprint , because it's almost impossible to cover the US either with one brewing partner or on your own . You just can't do it . It's too big . It's too big . I was talking to a woman who is helping us do this , who is a very well-regarded former CEO of a craft brewery . She's been in beer for a long time and we were talking about how in the US actually there are a number of very sizable regional breweries with turnovers in the sort of $30 million to $100 million kind of figure that just don't exist in the UK .

Speaker 1 38:56

Yeah , and she said it's because they all started in late 80s and they were just allowed time to build their companies , to build craft beer as a sector , to educate the consumer , to put the beer on shelves . But it took them years and years and years . They didn't need to do it fast because there wasn't any social media , and that's genuinely our opinion is that they just kind of got on with it . They weren't trying to build a brand , they were building businesses , whereas now , lo and no , it's seen as very cool and sexy and funky and there's TikToks and Instagram cool and sexy and funky and there's tiktoks and instagrams and everyone's trying to spend money and get space on shelves and it's really fast and scary and expensive . Um , but there will be winners .

Speaker 2 39:45

There will be winners , uh , and hopefully , touching wood , we should be one you are also in the process , as part of this expansion that you're looking at , of raising some funds

Crowdfunding and Craft Beer Sampling

Speaker 2 39:57

. You're doing some crowdfunding . Can you tell me a little bit about that and how people can get involved if they want to be part of the Big Drop journey ?

Speaker 1 40:04

Yeah , absolutely so . We have raised investment on a crowdfunding platform called CEDARS , which is just like all tech . You can't spell it the way that it sounds . You have to remove vowels from it . So it's S-E-E-D-R-S . They took out one of the three E's , I don't know why . Just make it look more tech , I guess . Anyway , they're lovely people . We've raised money on Cedars twice now , once in 2020 . We actually started raising money immediately before lockdown . It was like February 2020 . And we were like , yeah , this is going to be amazing . Big drop on draft in pubs and then the entire hospitality industry shut down .

Speaker 1 40:52

Oh gosh , that must have been painful for you that was tedious , um , but we hit our targets and then we raised again um at the end of 2022 . So we've got quite a nice um audience and you know consumers and they're all logged on and sat on the cedars platform , um . But we'll be raising some more money , um , but we'll be going live in the next few days . So if any of your listeners or viewers are interested in joining us on the journey , I think you can put as little as £50 in or something and join the crowd and there are various perks available depending on how much you invest . So you get free beer , free T-shirts , free glasses . Become a little drop in the big drop journey um . Check out um . Keep an eye out for our raise on cedarscom okay , and so anybody can can do that .

Speaker 2 41:47

Right it's . You don't have to be a a business , you don't have to have an interest in the industry . It's just for people who want to support the brand , want to support the business and get involved that way , that's it so anyone can do it .

Speaker 1 42:00

So you have to register with cedars . They'll ask you various questions just to make sure that you know what you're doing and they will give you warnings and investment advice and all sorts of this kind of stuff . But , yeah , anyone , yeah , anyone can register , and the idea is that you know you can and lots of brands do it . I mean , hundreds , thousands of companies have raised money and it's just a way of engaging with your audience and your consumers even more than you may do already .

Speaker 2 42:28

Yeah , absolutely . You're right . You know you do see several different brands and all sorts of industries , not just the low and low , using these platforms . I think they're really great because you get people who really really love being part of what you're doing . It's not just like going on eToro and just buying some random shares in NVIDIA and hoping that the tech market that you don't understand takes off .

Speaker 2 42:53

Yes , you can actually be part of something , and especially with smaller independents . You know it's something tangible . You get to follow the brand on their social media , see what they're up to . You know people can find you and and really like see your linkedin and see what you've been doing and and know how that is impacting the investment that they're making yeah , exactly , and it's .

Speaker 1 43:17

It is a great way to but maybe not even like build an audience . But , yeah , just engage with your audience on a , on a on a deeper level is the right word , but you know in a way that you wouldn't be able to otherwise . Um , so it's a it's , it's , it's a nice thing , it's a fun thing , um , and so , yeah , that's , I think that will be . Uh , yes , that will be our third time round on cedars , so looking forward to that and a whole bunch of goodies that you can get as well .

Speaker 1 43:43

A whole bunch of perks as well .

Speaker 2 43:45

Yes , I need to go and check that out myself you go and check it out , we'll see what we can rustle up I wanted to take or ask you to take us a bit through the range because I have some of your beautiful

Tasting Big Drop (& my big drop)

Speaker 2 43:57

beers wonderfully arrayed here , um . So for those who are listening on the uh audio , we'll describe which beers that we have , and for those who are watching on video , I'll show you the cans , but I'll also put up some professional pictures , because I always try and do this , then I can never get the focus , then it goes in and out and then I'm like , oh well , okay .

Speaker 1 44:17

So we've already mentioned the uh galactic stout so you've taken us through that one already , is that gonna ?

Speaker 2 44:24

focus there we go there you go um , so we've mentioned that one . And then I also . Oh my god , it's just popped . Oh sweet Jesus , covered in milk snout . Hi everybody , I've got a bag here . I'm just going to pop this in the bag . You do that .

Speaker 1 44:46

You pop that in the bag Yep , I don't know if it stains .

Speaker 2 44:53

Oh gosh , is this like it will be alright on the night that's it do you know what wonders of modern technology ? I could edit all that out , but I think I'm just going to leave it in . That's just what happens .

Speaker 1 45:07

It's that kind of authenticity , money can't buy that you can't buy that .

Speaker 2 45:12

And also , when my husband comes home and says I need , the house stinks of beer . Yeah , there's a real , there's a reason for it , so take two . Yes , we were also talking , uh , about the citrus ipa , yeah , so .

Speaker 1 45:29

So which has galactic ?

Speaker 2 45:31

stout . So which has Galactic Stout on the side now which has Galactic ?

Speaker 1 45:35

Stout on the side . So , yeah , the IPA . That actually started as a special , so the Stout came first , then , I think , the Pine Trail Pale Ale , which I can see there as well , so we've got that one , yeah .

Speaker 2 45:50

That's that one there .

Speaker 1 45:51

That's that one there .

Speaker 2 45:53

So they're all very distinctive . You can see the the big drop whenever you're having a search for it . You can't miss them that's it .

Speaker 1 46:01

Um , I should yes , I should give a shout out to james , my co-founder for the big drop . He's a , he is a designer by trade and I said to him . I said that the we were trying to work out what to call it . Right , we know what we want to do . What are we going to call it ? And I said my literal words were and you did say it's a grown-up

Naming not shaming

Speaker 1 46:20

podcast , so I can say . I said it has to be a name that I can walk into a pub and ask for a pint of it without sounding like a dick . That was the drink that I gave him . It was like you need to go into a pub and it's . You know , it's me , you , him . And right , yeah , I want a pint of stella , a pint of guinness and a pint of big drop yeah that's that's a strong yeah , that solid name .

Speaker 2 46:47

Yeah , you didn't want to sound like some apologetic . You know weaker , poor imitation .

Speaker 1 46:54

You wanted something that stood out and you've done that I'm a big believer in , and I definitely won't name brands at all , because now I am going to be derogatory about some brands . But okay , I I've always been of the view that if you call your brand something which is flagging or highlighting the sort of sobriety or abstinence or less than or lower than you know where it's a pun or a play on words . I don't think it works , because you're , you're um , I was gonna say virtue signaling . That's maybe not quite , it's not quite as high as that , but you're , you're flagging the fact that you're drinking something that's alcohol free , and I don't think that's .

Speaker 1 47:35

For me , that's not what you should be . It's just a brand . It's a brand that should carry its own message and connotation and vision and mission and everything else . And I guess , if that's what you do want to do , then yeah , okay , fine , but for me it's beer First and foremost , it's good beer , so it needs to be a brand that sounds like a beer . So hence he was like big drop , and then it's supposed to references . It's a big drop of flavor but a big drop in alcohol , so there's kind of a little play on it there . Ah , see what we did see what you did there um , so , yeah , sorry .

Speaker 1 48:07

So , anyway , um , what was I talking about ? The beers , yes , the beers yes the citroen ipa was a special that we did . That was very nice , so we brought it out as a as a main beer as well .

Speaker 2 48:17

Yeah , so you do quite a few of those sort of specials . Is there ? Is there a schedule to them , or is it just as and when you get inspired to create a new combination ?

Speaker 1 48:27

um , it used to be whenever I felt like doing it , so I would , uh , the . The one of the benefits of being the founder is that you just get to say right , everybody , we're going to do this now . And everyone goes oh , yeah , okay , rob , yeah , fine , yes boss , yes boss , exactly . But I was always , I did always want it to be positioned as craft beer , sort of my mainstream craft beer is how we always articulate it . But I think an important part of the craft beer scene , you know , generally over the last , however many years , has been that element of collaboration where brands cross over and so you'll get breweries working together , you'll get breweries and brands working together , and I wanted to be part of that ecosystem . I wanted to sit in that craft beer ecosystem . So I think we've done .

Speaker 1 49:17

We did two different four packs . So we did a four pack collaboration with uk breweries and a four pack collaboration with um , nordic breweries . So iceland , norway , sweden , finland , um . And then we've done a couple with other brands . We did one with um , a coffee brand , one with a cycling brand , um , so yeah , it's more , more like when the mood takes us rather than any particular schedule no plan , it's just , it's just a feeling oh , I haven't got a plan .

Speaker 2 49:46

There's no plan , no , um , I wanted to touch on something that's been uh in the in the lono news lately . Um ,

Trademark Dispute in Alcohol-Free Market

Speaker 2 49:57

your your team kindly sent me some information about a dispute that you had had with the team at alcohol change uk . So for those who may or may not uh be aware , um , dry january is uh has been going now for I think it's 11 years here in the UK and the team at Alcohol Change UK have very much taken ownership as something that was produced by one of their teams and they subsequently trademarked the term Dry January so that it wasn't able to be used by other people without their permission , which I think a lot of people would find surprising . I didn't know that until um recently , because it wasn't something that I expected .

Speaker 2 50:42

I just thought it was a thing because it happens all over the world and I'm just I'm doing dry january yeah of course you can do dry january officially by downloading their app and going through their sort of training and support and that sort of thing . But you can also just turn to your mate and go , yeah , I'm doing dry January and I'm not drinking . So they trademarked that name and you disagreed with that decision to expand their trademark to all low and no producers , establishments , shops that might want to use the term . Can you tell us a little bit about what happened there and and what happened in the end ?

Speaker 1 51:21

yeah sure . So obviously I can't speak for alcohol change uk and they'll have their own view on all of this . So I think it was either not January 24 , but possibly January 23 , where various drinks brands were doing what we do in dry January , which is saying , hey , if you're doing dry January , you should drink some Big Drop , some whatever insert alcohol-free brand here . And Alcohol Change UK started to reach out to the brands and say you can't use Dry January without our permission because we have trademarked it or we have applied to trademark it . And I was like well , it sounds very strange to me because , like you , I didn't know that there was any kind of protection there and I did think well , that seems a bit generic to me . I'm not sure that's a thing that's capable of being trademarked . Now , I'm not an intellectual property lawyer . As I said , insurance law was my bag . If you ever have a policy dispute with an insurance company , please feel free to come and see me . And I said insurance law was my bag . If you ever have a policy dispute with an insurance company , please feel free to come and see me and I'll give you some discounted advice . Not a problem at all . Intellectual property law , no idea . So spoke to some lawyers and I think I did vaguely know this .

Speaker 1 52:47

But there are different categories that you can trademark your name in . So , for example , Big Drop carries a trademark in the category of drinks . There are various different categories but all around drinks we own that trademark in lots of countries around the world . There's other I think there's like a design agency in New York that's called Big Drop something and they have a trademark in their category . So they couldn't produce a drink called Big Drop but I couldn't do something in their category . So couldn't produce a drink called big drop but I couldn't do something in their category . So there's different categories . So exactly because if you just trademarking big drop all over the world for everything ever makes no sense , so it's all divided up . So alcohol change had a trademark for dry January in a few categories but they had applied to have that trademark extended to include drinks and also places that serve drinks pubs , bars , restaurants , retailers etc . But that application I think was pending or was still still going through .

Speaker 1 53:57

I spoke to the lawyers and I said I'm not sure about this . I you know , I just think this is too generic . Do we have a case to uh challenge that application for a trademark and their advice was yes , you do . You know the decisions online . If anybody wants to go and google you know dry january , and then our solicitors were called burkitts you can find a link to the the decision there . It's very long and if intellectual property law is your thing , I'm sure you'll find it very interesting . Um , but ultimately the decision was that they weren't able to obtain the trademark in that category , so it's been rejected . So you know , you know .

Speaker 1 54:42

I should say I obviously have great respect for the work that alcohol change are doing . What you know why would I not ? Because we're all everybody in this wonderful churning mess that is alcohol-free drinks is trying to broadly do the same thing , which is , you know , facilitate options to people to allow them to make informed choices and , you know , potentially drink less alcohol . Great , alcohol change . You're doing exactly the same thing .

Speaker 1 55:05

Um , so that's what happened , but I think the the interesting thing that will , uh , happen in the future is , if you look at what alcohol change have said after that decision was granted , is that , although we , big Drop , were successful in our application , their view is that , if you were a retailer or a drinks brand referring to dry January . Their view is that that would be considered passing off of the dry January trademark that they do own in the categories that they own it . So whether they are right in that assumption or statement , though , is something on which I am not qualified to expand because I'm not an intellectual property lawyer and it hasn't been challenged yet , but I suspect that what will happen is next January .

Speaker 2 56:10

We'll find out indeed , indeed , because I think obviously this is whether people love the dry January concept or not . I know , even within our industry , there are some brands that don't like to be part of dry January because they don't feel that they want to encourage um , the the short abstinence with an end goal , yeah , which turns into an excessive celebration which , let's face it , if , if most people who've done dry journey have done it like that I've done it like that myself um , but I think that the majority of of brands , um services within the low-nose space will and do participate in dry january and encouraging it and sharing it with their , with their people , with their teams , with and it like you , obviously a huge fan of what Alcohol Change UK do . I particularly like their approach of not vilifying either alcohol or people who drink in whichever way they do , but providing resources to say , ok , you decided you've had enough , let me help you in the next stage . Okay , you decided you've had enough , let me help you in the next stage . And I think that's fantastic and it should be made clear that that that should continue to be supported because it's really important for people .

Speaker 2 57:30

I think it has come to the point now where it's just such a big movement that it it can't be contained . And I think that what will happen is that , unfortunately , if ac uk do decide that they want to fight everyone who does use the dry January moniker , from this , from next January going forward , they're going to be spending a lot of time doing a lot of paperwork for something that's not going to turn out in their favor , because , at the end of the day , this is like , this is like a juggernaut . Now can't stop this and you can't stop . If they were to go after every single brand , every single venue , every single uh establishment that used the term dry january , they they'd need to employ an entire department to to do that um , rightly or wrongly , depending on on how you feel about it um , I think dry january is one of those .

Speaker 2 58:21

It belongs to the people now .

Speaker 1 58:25

Yeah , look , I mean , I think that's right . I think that's right as I recall and I could be wrong , but as I recall , they applied for a trademark for dry January back in 2013, . The first in these sort of limited categories . But I think you're're yes , I agree with you . If they had taken the decision then , when it wasn't you know , that's 11 years ago , when you know , yeah , it existed , but not , not to a huge extent . But if they've taken the view then to apply in all the categories and they had made it very clear at that point that this is our trademark and , yes , you can use it , but you need our permission and or you need to pay us for it , then I think that would be different . But I think that , in my opinion , they've left it too late and so , therefore , the cat's out of the bag . The horse has bolted all of these . I do love a cliche All of the analogies , yeah , All the analogies , all in that .

Speaker 2 59:27

Well , absolutely , because I think the numbers for starting up to the Dry January app and program was something like 200,000 for this year , which is absolutely fantastic . The number of people who report that they themselves are doing Dry January is something like 9 million , so you can't fight the no , that's it .

Speaker 1 59:50

I don't think you can um , and as an ex-lawyer , I can tell you that even if you did want to , it would be very , very expensive that's what I'm thinking .

Speaker 2 59:59

I mean , I'm not a lawyer , just in case you thought I might be , but I agree that it would probably be very expensive , very time consuming . Speaking of time , rob , I have got two more questions before I let you go , if that's okay . The first , very importantly , is where should we send people that want to know more few cans in the fridge on their shelves , not knock them on the floor and spread galactic milk stout all over the only bit of the carpet that the kids hadn't destroyed . Where do we send people to go and , uh , get in touch so you can go to the website .

Speaker 1 1:00:38

so we have the website , which is bigdropperbrewcom . We have Instagram and Facebook pages as well . James , my co-founder , who is in charge of social media , tells me that we're no longer on what he describes as the bin fire that was Twitter . So don't look for us on X , because we're not there .

Speaker 2 1:01:02

I don't think anyone is .

Speaker 1 1:01:04

On our website . Um , if you would like to buy uh some big drop , as discussed , the first thing you should do is go into your local pub or bottle shop and ask them to stock it so you can buy it from them and support your local businesses . That's the first thing . Um , you can uh buy on Amazon if you wish . If you do not wish to give Mr Bezos your hard-earned pounds in order for him to not pay any tax on it , that's fine . Other online retailers are available , so you can get us on drydrinkercom and also wisebartendercom as well .

Speaker 2 1:01:41

Fantastic , and I will make sure that those are all listed and linked below for people so that they can go and find you . I'll also put up a link to a blog post that I put up on the no , no drinker blog about your dispute , um , with a comment from both yourselves and the team at ac uk , so if people want to know more about that , they can go and read that there and then get in touch with you with any questions . That they have no problem , um . My last question , rob , is one that I ask everybody who comes on the show , because I'm all about spreading the low

The BBQ Question

Speaker 2 1:02:12

no love to the entirety of low no nation .

Speaker 2 1:02:16

So , um , we had two days of sunshine , um , earlier on this week . I remember it . Yeah , it was nice , wasn't it ? Yeah , it was a nice summer , wasn't it ? Um , and , and during that time , many a barbecue was had . So I'd like you to uh tell me if you were attending one of those barbecues on a lovely sunny day , other than the amazing , amazing big drop , of course , which would be first on your list and anyone's list , what other uh , low no or even mid-strength drinks would you be bringing with you to enjoy on a lovely sunny day ?

Speaker 1 1:02:53

no , right . So I have two for you . I have two for you , um . The first is um a cider . Um , I A cider . I drink quite . I probably . I do drink Big Drop , but I drink quite a lot of alcoholic beer because I like beer . But if I drink cider , I drink non-alcoholic cider , and the best one that I've tried comes from a brand called Sassy yes , sassy cider . It's made in Normandy and they do what I quite like . Talking about sort of mid-strength is their ABV is generally quite low anyway . So there's a , there's a zero , there's a 2% , there's a three and a half and there's a five . So you know , I mean 5% . You can do some damage on 5% , but you know you've got some great choices there and the zero is genuinely really good . I get quite grumpy when people say well , that's just like fizzy apple juice , isn't it Actually ? No , drink it and it's not .

Speaker 2 1:03:52

The good ones are I've tried the Sassy and you're right , it was one of the few that I've . As you open it , that's that smell .

Speaker 1 1:04:01

Yeah , yeah .

Speaker 2 1:04:02

It's got that proper alcoholic cider aroma to it and you're drinking it and you're checking the bottle yeah um , yeah , but I think those percentages are interesting that you say because , yes , five percent , you know that's that that's pretty simple .

Speaker 1 1:04:15

Actually , having a two percent and a three percent for a cider , that's still quite low yeah ciders generally start around four , four and a half , going all the way up to ridiculous amounts yeah , so so that's my that's my first one um , and then the second one is a drink called botivo , um , and I met , uh , for the first time , one of their founders the other day and she was talking me through the , the , the thinking behind the drink and the brand , what they're trying to do .

Speaker 1 1:04:45

And first of all , first and foremost , it's always got to taste good , and I think it tastes absolutely fantastic . But what I quite like about it is that thing I talked about a little bit where , in my humble opinion and it's only only my opinion I think that brands in this space need to be not talking about abstinence and sobriety and missing out and lower than and less than and free from . It's about flavor and experience and all the other good things that just come with drinking a nice drink . Um and botivo very clearly are saying we're not trying to be an alcohol-free alternative to this , we're just a tasty beverage that you can drink and enjoy um in its own right and and I I think that's absolutely right and I admire it therefore as a brand but also , as I say , as a drink uh , I think I think what's think , what's their recommended serve ? I think it's soda water with Bativo ice and a slice of orange , which is delicious , delicious .

Speaker 2 1:05:53

Yeah , absolutely . I think actually Bativo , one of the brands that I was thinking about when I said earlier on about some brands that don't actively participate in Dry January Emma and the team there are very much just about , as you say , just making . They want to make an amazing drink . They want to love this drink , no matter what the season of somebody's drinking habits are like . I'm actually hoping to have her on the show soon , so I will let her know that you have spoken so highly . She's fantastic .

Speaker 1 1:06:22

No , I had a very nice chat with her and I think they're doing amazing things . So I'm going to be really annoyed if she doesn't recommend big drop at the end of her .

Speaker 2 1:06:29

I just , I just , I'm just putting it out there okay , okay , maybe I'll have to release these back to back and see what happens . Rob , it has been a pleasure speaking to you . Thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest and for I will never forget this as the the the day that I spilt beer all over myself sober , yeah that's it .

Speaker 1 1:06:53

Yes , you've literally ruined your carpet with beer whilst sober on the middle of the day on a Thursday . There you go .

Speaker 2 1:07:01

There you go and they say that the sober life isn't fun . This is wild Rubbish Rubbish . This is what you were dreaming of when you were in that band in school , wasn't it ?

Speaker 1 1:07:09

Spraying cans of stout all over the carpet , ripping it up .

Speaker 2 1:07:13

There you go . Thank you so much for joining me .

Speaker 1 1:07:17

Have a great day , thank you . Cheers , cheers , bye .