Mindful Drinking and Moderation in Midlife: How to Drink Less, On Your Terms
**A Spotify 'Rising Star' show** Practical moderation for the way you want to live.
Why can't I drink like I used to? How do I drink less without quitting completely? Should I go for low, no or light alcohol drinks? Why do alcohol-free drinks cost so much?
If you're in your 30s, 40s, 50s or beyond and asking these questions, this is your podcast.
Welcome to the essential show for midlife adults who want to drink less, on their own terms—without the pressure to quit completely, follow rigid rules, or label themselves as sober.
I'm Denise Hamilton-Mace, your mindful drinking mentor, writer and public speaker on all things low, no and light. Each week, I help stressed parents and busy midlife adults navigate their relationship with alcohol through practical approaches grounded in real-world experience and behaviour change strategy, not willpower or wellness culture
What you'll get:
Mindful Moderation Solo Episodes – Deep-dives answering the questions that matter to sophisticated drinkers who want to moderate smartly:
- How do I cut back when my partner still drinks at home?
- What really works: willpower vs. strategy?
- Why do premium alcohol-free drinks cost the same as full-strength versions?
- How do I navigate social situations when I'm the only one moderating?
This podcast is for you if:
- You're looking for practical advice that fits your demanding life, not another wellness overhaul
- You recognise that coasting with mid-strength drinks, zebra-striping, or bookending your evening with something non-alcoholic are all valid strategies
- You want better mornings without giving up celebrating life's special moments
This isn't about going completely dry or reinventing yourself. It's about keeping energy for what matters most: family, health, career, and living life on your own terms.
Join the moderation revolution happening in midlife – because while Gen Z gets the headlines, you're the one actually doing it.
Mindful Drinking and Moderation in Midlife: How to Drink Less, On Your Terms
#29. The Rise and Rise of Mocktails with Pooja Sharma-Jones
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Pooja Sharma-Jones is the dynamic Chief Marketing Officer for Mocktails, the leading RTD alcohol-free cocktail company in both the UK & the US.
In this conversation, she takes us through her own incredible journey working for some of the most dynamic and influential F&B companies in the UK and how that path led to her embarking on an industry that she admits, at first, she wasn’t very sure of.
From working with the innovative Luke Boase in the early days of Lucky Saint to stepping into a role at Mocktails tailor-made for her unique set of skills.
We learn the love story behind the inception of Mocktails and how it went from a US cocktail-shaker-style drink, to bottles, to the nitro-charged cans we know and love today.
Pooja shares some of the challenges of making it into grocery megastore Sainsburys, the Metropolitan pub chain and trying to stay top-of-mind in the low/no event space.
And, of course, I get her BBQ drink recommendations before we finish up with a look at Pooja’s predictions for the future of low-and-no.
TRY MOCKTAILS
@DRINKMOCKTAILS
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It mainly is industry people that you know , poo-poo it . It tends to be mixologists and you know and it's kind of silly because you know I was saying again to colleagues , it's kind of what's in a name people understand what you're getting or what you're not getting . You know the alcohol .
Speaker 2Hi , hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Today , I am chatting with the lovely Pooja Sharma-Jones . Pooja is the Chief Marketing Officer for Mocktails , the leading alcohol-free ready-to-drink cocktail brand , taking the UK and now the US by storm . Mocktails is a collection of five cocktails that replicate drinks that we will know and love from our professional drinking days . Whatever your reasons are for drinking less now , some of my favourites in there include the sans gruyere , which is absolutely stunning , and I will get Pooja to take us through them all a little bit later . I'm really intrigued to talk to Pooja about the evolution of the company and the progression from a start-up to a low-nose staple in our homes . I haven't been to an event or a venue lately and not seen a can of mocktails across the bar , so that's absolutely fantastic . I've got a few questions for her . We're going to have a chat . Come and join us , pull up a chair and let's say hello to Pooja .
Speaker 1Hi , pooja Hi .
Speaker 2Denise , thank you for having me . You're very welcome , very welcome . So we were just having a bit of a chat before I pressed record , so I know that you've had a good start to the day , you're all energised , you're ready to rock and roll .
Speaker 1Energised . Been to the gym . I'd given you a bit of a warning and said I've got a cat so he might make an appearance . What's the fudge ?
Speaker 2oh did you name him or did your kids name ?
Speaker 1him um . He's an rspca rescue , so he already was . Was named fudge and we just , we just stuck with it okay but you might make an appearance okay ,
Pooja's story
Speaker 1um .
Speaker 2so mocktails , puja , you guys are doing some amazing stuff . You're literally everywhere , so I want to come on to talk to you about how you did that . Maybe I'll get some tips for the magazine and how I can get everywhere as well .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah anytime .
Speaker 2Before we get into that , I love to start with a chat about you as a person and your journey and what it is that led you to where you are now . So , uh , appreciate , you're not the brand founder , but you have been an integral part of mocktails for quite some time . So how did that all come about ?
Speaker 1so , um , yeah , I've been with the brand about three and a half years now , um , and prior to being at mocktails , I think . I think you'll , if I go through that , you'll sort of understand how I ended up with Mocktails . I've been in hospitality marketing for about 19 years and I've always been in the F&B space . So whether that was F&B for Selfridges , harrods I kind of did the department store thing and Liberty , I was always like the marketing manager for those areas and I always loved that more than anything else . So there was my peers did fashion and watches and jewelry , you know the kind of sexier considered stuff , but I was always like an F&B girl . And then , from Harrods , I joined Soho House and the private members clubs , I'm sure you know , and that role was like look , we are a private members club , I'm sure you know . And that role was like look , we are a private members club , we've got people paying their membership every month but we own about 30 F&B propositions outside of the houses which are public spaces . Would you , would you be interested in coming sort of heading up the marketing ? And so I did that for about a year and a half and obviously very much a wet lead business . But alcohol , wet lead , and from there I then joined Drake , morgan , which I'm not sure you're familiar with , but they've got about . When I joined them they had about 25 bars and restaurants in the city and again very much a wet lead late night proposition , female owned . You know , we worked with Diageo as our main brand partner and they put together our kind of cocktail menus and things for us all of our training . So I've always been in that sort of F&B space and then I kind of , you know , took a break from Drake and Morgan and thought actually I've been doing this a while , should I have a go at consulting ? I've got a good black book , why don't I give it a go ? So I ended up doing that for about four and a half years and didn't have a sexy company name , it was PSJ Marketing Consultancy for the purposes of invoicing . I didn't think it'd be success . I didn't want to be an agency , I didn't want to hire people , but I had a good , good black book and ended up working back with our house .
Speaker 1And then Molly's Motel Diner concept Worked with Richard Caring at Caprice on the Bills restaurants Did a lot of independent stuff . So Sticks and Sushi in Soho helped them open , worked the brand called Souvlaki Greek restaurant , so again very much in the kind of food space . And then I started getting approached by a tea brand , you know , twist teas . They came and said , look , would you , would you consult for us ? Um , and actually worked with Luke , luke Bowes from Lucky Saint , literally , I'd say five and a half , six years ago , when it was just Luke and , interestingly enough , the um PR agency they had .
Speaker 1They kind of referred me and and I remember saying to them I don't think this is going to be something people are going to buy into , this non-alcohol stuff , non-alcohol beer , and I was a bit kind of like I'm not sure about this . So anyway , I met Luke , heard about his story and literally kind of worked with them for about six , seven months , literally , when it was Luke advising on social , helping them , getting some listings again , using that black book to kind of intro the product , and I could see the love for the product . You know it was like everyone that tried it was saying this is really good for a nine-hour beer , and this was at the time as well . And I think they shot the ranking campaign and you know they were doing really , really amazing things . So that was my kind of first intro into OK , non-alcoholic could be something . And prior to that I had a vegan client in Sloane Square called Wolf and Lamb and I kind of had that same view about them . I was like vegan this was again about eight , eight , nine years ago . It's like no , no one's going to do that . So I'm happy to say you know , um , I was proved wrong on both accounts .
Speaker 1And um Mocktails , I used to work with our current chief commercial officer , ed used to work with me at Harrods , so he was the head of wine and wine and spirits buying and , um , he made the move over to Mocktails and he gave me a call and said look , I know you're consulting . We're really really small team at the moment . There's , like myself , bill , the founder and ambassador , would you be interested in kind of giving us some marketing support ? And I think if I hadn't done the lucky saint stint , I might have been like what people are going to buy into this ? And like I do with any client , whether it's a restaurant or you know a product , I was like send me a case , let me try it , I'll let you know if I like it . I mean , my husband obviously meant these were all right , you know . You know that was our view and we're both moderators . You know we do drink , so to try something that was like that's not bad . I was like that's not bad .
Speaker 1So that started off as a 10-month consultancy project for Mocktails , which was great in a way , because it was like a long probation period . I got to really understand where the brand had come from , what they needed doing , understanding the culture of the company , getting you know , understanding what Bill was about . So , you know , five , six months in , Ed kept saying , look , why don't you join us ? Shut the consultancy . And I was a bit like , look , I've got some live projects that I want to complete . Um , let me do those . And then you know , let let's press the button on this when you're ready to do that .
Speaker 1So , um , yeah , it's been 10 months as a consultant and then three and a half years in total now , um , as their , as their cmo . So we're a small operation . You know we've got a US team and a UK team . The UK team is myself , chief commercial officer , brand ambassador , sales director , and then in the US we've got a sales director and an equivalent of me , so she sort of manages all of the US side for us . So that's the business in terms of its people .
Speaker 2Okay , well , that's quite a journey that you've been on there yourself , pooja , because I know most of all of those places that you've mentioned , having been in hospitality myself for a while , and you've worked with some quite phenomenal venues and establishments , so you must have gained quite a lot of insight into the the industry , and so it's interesting to to hear that you're now taking that and applying it to this fledgling category that that you yourself were not quite entirely sure about . I think a lot of people were not quite entirely sure about it to to begin with , because you know it's something new and is it going to be a fad ? Is Is it going to stick around ? Yeah , people going to buy into it , and I think those are all things that we can , we can , speak to .
Mocktails: a love story
Speaker 2Can you tell me , before we get onto that , a little bit about the actual origin of the Mocktails brand itself and how that came about ?
Speaker 1Yeah , so our founder , as we've mentioned , is a gentleman called Bill Gamelli . He's American , he lives out in Boston and his sort of foray into non-alcoholic I kind of guess went back to it in his 20s when he was at university and his girlfriend at the time , and now wife , had a swimming scholarship . So she obviously was taking that very seriously , she was taking her health very seriously . So she wasn't drinking , you know , through their college years and he was , he was kind of enjoying himself and he's always said you know , that's where he kind of thought God , her options are really limited . You know , she obviously wants to experience that university life , but she doesn't want to mess up this scholarship . So that's when he first kind of thought her options are quite slim here . And then they experienced that same feeling when they got married and were thinking about having a family and you know she wasn't drinking and he was like , well , actually I might join you on that as well .
Speaker 1And I guess in the US , you know , 10 years ago maybe , the options were very much kind of cranberry juice , lots of high fructose corn syrup in products and he just thought , oh , this is really lacking . And his idea kind of stemmed from that , that personal need and they had a conversation with family friends and they were like , look , we kind of feel the same , why don't we do something ourselves ? And Bill's background isn't F&B , it's Wall Street , so you know he understands kind of the financial side , um of running a business , but he had this real appetite for there's got to be something that we can do um and fast forward to sort of 2018 . He found that america at the time wasn't really ready to embrace that non-alc movement . The ingredients weren't there . The sort of of the top level , premium quality of ingredients he wanted were not available .
Speaker 1So all of the production takes place in the UK . So , in effect , they had a bit of a rebrand , I guess in around 2018 . And it went from being in a kind of cocktail shaker format . You know it really has changed in terms of like where it is now in terms of the cans , that behind you . But it wasn't a kind of ready to drink cocktail shaker type format and that all changed to sort of bottles when they came to the UK and now we're in cans . So that's literally how the sort of brand came to be Just that own personal desire and thinking there's got to be something for people that want to be part of the party but aren't drinking that's really cute , that that's like a , it's like a love story to his uh , his wife because I hear a lot of stories of brand founders who are doing it because they themselves don't drink or they want something for their own , but this is the first story I've heard of somebody creating something for someone that they love and wanted to support them yeah , totally
Speaker 2it's amazing . It speaks so much to this industry that we're in now , though , and and the fact that it goes beyond the individual's needs and looking at this culture shift to the people that are around us and how our choices and what we're doing is impacting lots of other people yeah .
Speaker 2I think it's , um , it's . It's not only commendable , obviously , that that he's done this , but it's that he's taken this and then grown it to something that can help so many people as well , yeah , which is which is lovely .
USA to the UK
Speaker 2Um , it's interesting that you say that in the US at the time it just wasn't really well , I guess , viable to produce and to have the business be based as that main selling point for you guys and how you're being received . Is it still that the UK is more open to it ? Are the US fully embracing you now ? What are the sort of challenges that you're seeing in one versus the ?
Speaker 1other . Yeah , I think it's , it's flipped , you know , I think um , certainly we're finding in the US the the sales are greater , obviously it's a larger , but I think grocery really embraced the product . So you know we are in like Total Wine and More Walmart stores and people are very , very receptive to the product and I think it's not to say the UK aren't . But I think the buying teams and some of the outlets that we speak to , whether that's in grocery or hospitality , it's a harder sell and you find that you have to have . You know you're knocking on those doors for over a year in some cases and I just think maybe the US do embrace the RTDs more so than the UK . So I've definitely seen that shift .
Speaker 1You know we were talking the other day internally about our name . You know , because I think sometimes people kind of go I don't like the word mocktail , I don't like it , and you know that's our brand name and I think it mainly is industry people that you know poo , poo . It tends to be mixologists and you know , and it's kind of silly because you know I was saying again to colleagues it's kind of what's in a name . People understand what you're getting or what you're not getting . You know the alcohol um and um . Yeah , you know , and I think again in the us it's , it's it's quite commonly used term for non-alcoholic drink . Uh , I'm not saying that's what's holding anything back in the uk . I just think our distribution networks are quite different . It is a more saturated market . I think now in the uk with non-alc um . You know , when I joined mocktails you know I was looking at better without app back then and there were probably 70 brands and now there's probably like over 300 .
Speaker 1So you know there are a lot of players in the space and I think we're all getting savvy with our marketing and our on our content and you know we're we're getting our distribution lined up and it's all about those firsts . You know it's like , okay , who can get into Waitrose , you can get into Tesco and those shelf spaces are tiny . You know you're asking a buyer to take something else off the shelf and put you on and it's quite hard to demonstrate that rate of sale if that's that first supermarket speaking to . So you know you're kind of you're winning them over on taste and you know you're meeting with those buyers and you know I don't have that direct one-to-one with those teams but harry , our sales director , does , and we're tiny , so you know you can see the kind of pitch decks that are being put together and the the length of time it takes to get even a meeting . Um , and I think the difference that I see with working buyers in retail is you know those buyers are very open to marketing , giving them ideas , and you know they obviously would do their trend visits and go to Europe and come back and say we're going to bring this chocolate in or range this product , but marketing were also quite integral in telling them this is what's happening in the marketplace . You should be bringing these products in .
Speaker 1And I'm not sure whether maybe some of the buyers in the sort of supermarket structure are that decision maker and it's kind of what they want to arrange . I'm not sure how much input they get from other teams and I've seen that when we've done events and we've met people who might be the marketing manager for a brand or a brewery and they're like this product is amazing , here's my details for the buyer and then you just get a door closed because but that person in the team is like , yeah , I can see why we should be doing this . So yeah , I think there are those sort of marketing challenges that I think exist . And then you've got that . You know an open minded group of people maybe more so in the US in terms of buying the distribution where they're like , yeah , I'm going to completely embrace this , I get it , let's list it . So it's just taking a bit longer in the UK but we're getting there .
Speaker 1I mean , you said there's not an event that you don't go to that we're not present at and it's still trying to build that awareness . Um , and that's certainly what I spend quite a lot of my time trying to do . You know , I'm like , yes , it is about sales , but still it's still a brand that people are kind of like oh , I'm starting to see it in places and I'm becoming it . So you know , we'll always be doing those kind of events like CAM or , you know , other trade events and other consumer events , to keep building that brand awareness .
Speaker 2I think that there's a couple of really interesting things that you mentioned there that I'd love to unpack . You mentioned the name , so the brand name Mocktails , and I think that's a really interesting point that you brought up about . Some
Is mocktail a dirty word?
Speaker 2people do poo-poo the term Mocktails .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Don't call it a Mocktail , it's not mocking anything . Yeah , it must be quite challenging for you working in marketing a brand that has this name , though I remember getting into a conversation with somebody and saying isn't it great that we're at that stage that we can have a conversation about , yeah , whether or not we should call it a mocktail , yeah , or an alcohol free or non-alcoholic um you know , and I and I see article after article I really do on um , people sort of having that conversation around the labeling , around a product , uh , without alcohol in it , and yeah , I think you're totally right .
Speaker 1If it's being debated , it's a good thing . You know , if it's being talked about and the press writing about it and industry leaders are having an opinion on it , you know why not it's bringing that conversation forward .
Speaker 2You know again , it's like what's that saying ? The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about . So you know , if they're having this conversation and then your brand is popping up there , then you know it comes down to at the end of the day . For me , whether or not you want to use the term mocktails and to be honest I don't really care as long as the drinks are good yeah , it comes down to just that . Is the liquid in the vessel good ? Am I going to have something that I can enjoy and it's going to make me feel like I am part of whichever situation I'm in , and I can have an adult drink yeah , exactly , it's what's in the can , not what's in the what's in the name .
Speaker 1You know it's what's in the can , so you know mocktail by any other name would taste just as sweet .
Speaker 2Well , there you go , so we're really busy on that .
Speaker 1I think That'll be our next marketing campaign .
Speaker 2So , before we jump back into the because I want to talk a bit more about the position and speaking of supermarkets and the misconception that people have about the Lono brands in the supermarkets versus elsewhere let's talk a little bit about the range , so those who are watching on youtube rather than listening on the rss will be able to see behind me a lovely
The range
Speaker 2array of uh , mocktails and uh , I said to to puja before we press record . Uh , in a recent interview I managed to drop cans on the floor which sprayed all over my lovely floor , so let's see this time if I can do it without painting my carpet . Um , so let's have a little chat about what we have in the range and I will show people some of the cans that we have here , so we start with this one here .
Speaker 1So that is the um moxgo m . We do like a play on words . So that is your kind of non-alcoholic equivalent of a Moxgo Mule . Fantastic , and they are all 200ml cans . They are nitro charged .
Speaker 2What does that mean for people that don't understand ?
Speaker 1Yeah , you know it's on our can . It's a selling point for us . But obviously you don't have space on a can to necessarily tell the customer what that means In detail . Basically , our cans are nitrogen charged . There's a widget in the base of the can so when you do open a can you should hear that sort of sound . But what that widget does is releases nitrogen . When you open the can it just gives you a bit more of an elevated mouthfeel , a bit more of a cocktail experience . So our products are designed to be pop and pull , so you can do a grab and go and enjoy it as it is . But we kind of advise , whether it's hospitality or bars , even at home , use a shaker if you can , because you'll just get a bit more of a froth . Whether it's the espresso , you just get a bit of a different dimension to the product . But that's what the nitrogen adds . And I think we were one of the first , if not the first , non-alcoholic RTDs in cocktail form to do that . I have to be careful because I think there are a few other nitro brands , but I think we were the first in that space .
Speaker 1And in your hand there is the Macapulitan . Again , that's quite a popular flavor in the , in that space . Um , and in your hand there is the uh , mocapolitan . Um , again , that's quite a popular flavor in the us . Um , again , different flavors work in in different markets . Um , there's the sansgria alcohol-free sangria , which is , yeah , it's good . I've actually loaded up my fridge with a few of those . It is gorgeous .
Speaker 1Is that your favorite one ? Definitely my favorite , definitely . Yeah , I'm a big fan of mocherita , the green one . Again , you know you can add alcohol to these , so that's a preference , that's your own choice . If you want to add tequila , you can , and we recommend you add a salt rim to that . And then the espresso martini . So our latest launch , probably one of the best sellers , not my favorite , only because for me coffee is a warm drink and it's my morning drink . So , yeah , I tend to have quite a lot of the espressos left over when I get my stock delivered to me and everything else I'm a big fan of . So five flavors in the range , like you said in your intro there , the kind of most commonly loved cocktails in alcoholic form , and obviously we replicate that non-alcoholic . At the moment we are working with five . We may add more flavors further down the line . I don't think we're talking kind of this year or early next year . But that may happen . But at the moment we've got these five flavours that work really well .
Speaker 2And so you've decided to go with those sort of well-known flavours . So you know , your sans gruyere is a play on a sangria and the Moscow mule and the margarita . Are you finding that that's helping people to really resonate with the brand and with the drinks ? Because you can then just go right , I know what this is supposed to taste like it's .
Speaker 1It's simple . You know . We're not trying to do complicated flavors and recipes and we worked very closely with um . She's a top bartender in the us called ezra star um and she's now in hong kong and has a bar out there called Mostly Harmless . She's worth checking out . I think she's a Hall of Fame inductee in Tales of the Cocktail , which is quite a big event in the US .
Speaker 1So you know , we did have help creating these flavours and actually , because they're non-carbonated , you can kind of make them what you want them to be . So if you do want a more uh , if you want a kind of picante style drink which our house did , you know , you can kind of add the chili um and you can add lots of pantry items , and that's why they work really well in uh hospitality and at home , because you can , you know , make more seasonal serves out of them . And there's quite a few recipes on the website if you did want to do that , so you can have them as they come or take it up a notch amazing and and you're right , and I have done it at home and adding the ice in the shaker really quickly .
Speaker 2Or , if people don't have a shaker , a jam jar with a good lid , a bit of ice , give it a shake and then you get that lovely frothy head on it and then you get that texture and mouth feel there is a difference , there is a different bringing shaker , but you know , of course , um they're available .
Speaker 1You know um the espresso is available in sainsbury's . In a bit more detail , um , so , yeah , we have it on d2c ,
Getting into Sainsbury's
Speaker 1uh , we have it on amazon , and then we have the full pack of the espresso in sainsbury's . For now , so yeah .
Speaker 2so I wanted to have a chat about sainsbury's , then um , and sort of supermarkets in general , because there's this conception , isn't there , that once a non-alcoholic brand has made it to the supermarket shelves , that you've made it now , that's it . They're everywhere . They must be making millions . Are you making millions from being in ?
Speaker 1Sainsbury's , I'd love to say we are . You know it's a , it's a real challenge and you know . So , harry and Edward , their socks off getting the product into Sainsbury's . And you know , again there's hesitancy , there's like , okay , let's start with one SKU and we weren't doing four packs at this point . So we created a four pack for Sainsbury's and it retails for £11 .
Speaker 1And you know , the challenge that any brand of our size will have in that supermarket is that we don't have massive budgets , we don't . So you get through that really hard stage of knocking on the buyer's door five million times , getting a meeting in for a tasting , then waiting another three months , then that purchase order comes through and then the product's on the shelf , through and then the products on the shelf , and then , from my perspective , I'm going okay , well , how do we tell people that we're in sainsbury's ? Because to be in the nectar scheme costs a fortune to take out adverts on their digital screens and store costs a fortune to do install sampling costs a fortune , um , so you know you're kind of challenged to go well , how do we drive the rate of sale here ? Um , you know and um that that's the challenge . So I I don't think any of the brands in the low and no aisle , like us , are making millions , but you've just got to keep working so hard , go back to the buyer and say look , we know this is now selling because you know what you do as a small brand . When you're in 350 Sainsbury's stores which we were in you're going into your own store and going right , I think 10 were in this week . I can see three are left . Brilliant , you know , because they're not giving you these reports , because you're not a Diageo or you know you're not getting these detailed reports from the buyers . I mean , having said that , we recently did get some data which was really interesting for us , and I'm not sure how much of that I should share because it's obviously sort of category data , but it was like OK , this information is really useful for our next pitch , you know . So that kind of data was really helpful .
Speaker 1And I think the you know the buyer of non-alc . You know we're always told by data that it's the gen z , gen z millennial um , but our price point for a premium product is probably considered a little bit high . You know , in sainsbury's , for example , it's 11 pounds for four cans . You're talking , you know , two pound fifty um . A gen z millennial , isn't really going to be spending that .
Speaker 1So , again , from our kind of marketing angle , at one point we were like we need to be targeting the kids , the TikTokers , you know the Gen Zs . And then we're sort of going oh , actually we're finding that it's the more older customer that has got that disposable income , that's doing their weekly shop in Sainsbury's and probably going oh , I've got friends over for dinner , I'm getting some wine , I'm going to get this and spending £11 isn't a challenge . So you know , that's certainly , from my perspective , gone . Oh , okay , there are .
Speaker 1We were pigeonholing a certain group of people as being our target audience and actually it's not . So , yeah , I mean , getting into the supermarket is fantastic , you know . It just means it's nationwide , it's accessible . Obviously you can buy off the website . But then you've got to keep working very , very hard to try and drive that continued awareness and you can . You can obviously use your own channels , new social media things like that . But I think you know we always get those rate cards and then go OK , when we're in a position to do it , we will , but you've got to work really hard at doing that via your own channels .
Speaker 2But you've got to work really hard at doing that via your own channels . I think it's hard for the average consumer to understand just how much of a challenge it is to get your brand onto the supermarket shelves , and I think it's really important for us to use this moment to let those who are listening know that , if you see your favourite brands on the shelves in the supermarkets , it's not enough to just go oh yeah , that's really good , you need to go and buy it . Yeah , because it's so uh that the cost of speaking to somebody else who was telling me some of the costs involved in getting listed , and it's eye-watering , um , and it's such a tipping point or , sorry , it's such a barrier for a lot of low and low brands that make it very difficult for them to be showcased within our industry because they don't , they're not in a position to do what you've done and go .
Speaker 2Okay , right , we're into one of the biggest supermarkets in the country , we're getting some eyeballs , um , but the eyeballs alone are not enough , and I think what we need to remember as consumers is that we have to vote with our wallets we have to make our preferences heard , and the more we buy the brands that we see in our low and no aisles or columns , or little tiny shelf , depending on where you go , the more these supermarkets and retailers will realize that people want it and then they'll start giving more space and I think , um , interestingly , you know , you and I were both at the cam event last week the low and no and we've been present at that event for three years , you know .
Speaker 1So I've certainly seen the type of delegates change . You know , um , you know I said to you I worked for sarah house . You know , back in 2016 , nobody from sarah house would have ever come to a low and no conference and to see then the drinks buyer be there , it's like it's amazing . You know , um , because you know , I remember , I , I know amanda thompson uh , you know naughty thompson has got very well going back several years and she used to come and meet me at .
Speaker 1So how do I get naughty into so house and I'd be like it's not going to happen ? You know we've got this massive deal with bacardi . You know they throw cash at us and they give us . And how do I get naughty into our house and I'd be like it's not going to happen ? You know we've got this massive deal with Bacardi . You know they throw cash at us and they give us all the stock for our . You know , after parties , for the Brit Awards and whatever we were doing , and you know , now to see that buyer come there and again you know more supermarket buyers were present and more you know venue operators were present , which is really really good , it's really positive . You know they're making time in their day . You know that was a full day event virtually to join and understand . No-transcript .
Speaker 2And that's why we we do come every year , because we see more and more of the people that we want to engage with and build leads with attending those events . It's it was really lovely to see such big pub companies and bars and , like you said , the chap from Soho House , are coming along and really embracing the possibilities that low and no can bring , because it's more than just having a drink for the sober person that might come into the bar on the odd occasion . It's no longer about that . It's now about providing something to help the social experience of all of your guests in your space , isn't it ? Because it's more than just one person now .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , definitely , it's amazing , you know , and it was just like you know , harry's like do you know him ? I was like no , he's new , not that old . But yeah , that was great and hopefully they'll start adding , you know , more products . And you know , I'm always , when I'm on holiday and stuff , you know , I'm always our sect and be like , oh hey , look , you're in this menu here and you're here . You know , it's just a , it's still .
Speaker 1It's still nice to see that you know our fellow brands in the space , you know , we're all getting listed and it's a very supportive community . I think you probably found that as well . You know , all of the non-alcoholic brands are like , we're sharing of information as much as we can . You , you know , and there's a , there's a whatsapp group on um called kindred spirits and it's it's about 450 members from drinks brands , alcohol brands , non-alcohol soft drinks , um , you know , and that's a great space where we share information about . Has anyone got a lead ? Has anyone got this contact for this venue ? Has anyone got a printer that can do coasters for me ? Or has anyone done this trade show ? What do you think ? Was it good , was it shit ? So I think that the network around us is like phenomenal in terms of that sort of sharing of information and just helping each other out , and I don't that doesn't always exist in any other sort of sector I've been in that's absolutely brilliant , because you know it's that a rising , rising tide lifts all boats .
Speaker 2Yes , the philosophy , isn't it ? Is that if you can help each other , uh , it's quite like what the ? Um craft beer , um a cohort did a while ago . You know it's . It's sharing ideas and creativity and and ways to help spread this information to more people yeah I . I really liked what you said about um , you're shifting your marketing from the gen zeds and the millennials to the
Generational spending on low/no
Speaker 2, the gen x's . I'm a I'm a gen xer myself . I'm 45 years old .
Speaker 1Put it out there . I think I'm 40 . Yeah , you forget , don't you ?
Speaker 2yeah , I'm like so can't keep up , can you I ? I know I only actually just learned the differences of the generations a couple of months ago , um , but I'm a big , big advocate of this . Now I know that the numbers say that it is the millennials and the gen z who are leading this uh , low and no alcohol movement . And to me , yes , I can see the statistics and I know that they are taking far better care of themselves at in their 20s to 30s than our generation ever did . Yeah , which is absolutely fabulous .
Speaker 2But what I think is really interesting is that you said that it's actually the older generation who are going to be driving the economy of low and low , because it is those who have a steady job and we know that our younger generations are struggling with work . It is those that have a disposable income . Yeah , it's those who prefer the finer things in life , who are prepared to pay for quality , who will actually put their hands in their pockets and pay the cost that it it's required to create these drinks , because a lot of people don't understand . I still get asked why do alcohol-free drinks cost so much if there's no alcohol in them ? I'm sure you must get this question a lot .
Speaker 1Yeah , the alcohol is the cheapest part of , you know , an alcoholic drink and , yeah , we do . We do get sort of . You know when we've done . You know our Facebook ads and you know people , we do . We do get sort of , um , you know when we've done . You know our facebook ads and you know people comment and go .
Speaker 1I'm not paying 30 pounds for 12 cans . You know , on your website it appears dear to people , um , but you know it is . You know that the , the best products are used in our drinks . You know , and um , you know it . All of that costs money . All that sourcing and all those checks that go into it . And yeah , yeah , we get that all the time and I'm sure other brands in the space do as well . But there's no booze in it . How can , how can it cost so much , um , but yeah , that's that . That is a challenge . But you know we are a premium rtd brand , um , and we've just got to work harder at pushing . While you're paying £2.50 per can or £30 per 12 and it is in the taste , you can taste the difference . You know the product is , you know , gluten-free and free of preservatives and it's made using natural ingredients , and that costs .
Speaker 2That costs money you know absolutely it costs money to get for and you know when you're not having alcohol in your drink , in your product . People again don't necessarily understand that alcohol does a lot in a drink other than just get you drunk you know , it . It adds more body as texture , it carries flavor , it keeps it safer for longer . Yeah , these are all challenges that you're having to find ways to to combat , right ?
Speaker 1totally and I think , um , you know , I know we've touched on sainsbury's , we've also recently been listed in um metropolitan pubs , which is part of green king . So we're in their 60 , 60 sites nationwide . Um , and again , going back to the non-carbonated , and how do you make it an elevated product ? You know a lot of operators come to us and say , you know , we , we want to offer it as a non-elk but we would like to offer it as a cocktail as well . And you know , pitch it at that sort of price point and that's obviously their prerogative . They're buying the stock from us . They can kind of do what they want with it when they have it .
Speaker 1But you know , you can see that the price points of the mocktails are around £8.50 , £9 as a non-elk and you know , again , going back to that price point , can £2.50, . You know , a drink in a bar £9 . People sort of go , oh my God . But you know we pitch those sites very carefully . You know there are 60 sites . Not all of them are priced the same . So you have to kind of tailor those price points around the country . Um , because people will just have a heart attack . You know , just come up paying , not paying that .
Speaker 2But you know , they see the difference once they've tried it yeah , you've used the acronym rtv for a couple of times , just for those who might be listening that don't understand what that means . Can you just explain
Lazy drinkers (RTDs) & the BBQ-Q
Speaker 2it to us ? Apologies for that ?
Speaker 1uh , ready to drink ? So nothing , nothing too complicated . In our world we're around that all the time , but ready to drink ? So , um , that's our proposition . It is um , pop and pour , you know , like I've said , or put it in a shaker , and you're ready to go yeah , so I love an rtd , so ready to drink ?
Speaker 2uh , because I love it . I love a picnic . You know , I'm at that stage in my life now I've got two little kids . When the sun is shining , uh , one of the easiest things for us to do as a family is I live next to a lovely park with a bit of a river . It's nice to put a couple of things in a bag , go sit by the river , put a blanket out , give them a ball to go and run around with , and my husband and I sit and you know , as you say , pop and pour . Obviously , we can't use the shaker and such when we're out in the park , but it's really nice just having great tasting drinks that you can just sit and relax with , yes , and you don't have to do anything else to it .
Speaker 1I think you know I'm quite . I'm quite lazy as well . So , whilst there are amazing brands in the space , I've got to say that probably the ones that I consume and enjoy because they are ready to drink . I love , obviously , mocktails . I think trip do great job . The CBD doesn't do anything for me . I don't drink it for that purpose . I just think they taste nice . Um and uh , I love pentire . They're kind of coastal spritz , um , but again , that's because I'm I'm lazy . But there are obviously amazing spirits and beers . But yeah , I think my fridge but there are obviously amazing spirits and beers , but yeah , I think my fridge is mainly filled with trip and pen tyre as well as mocktail in can Just easy .
Speaker 2Well that you've jumped on my my , my , my go to question which I ask everybody , which is my barbecue question . So I always say you know , if it's a nice sunny day and you're off to a barbecue , what ? What ? Uh , low , no drinks do you like to enjoy other than your own fabulous brand ? So is that your list ? Is it Pentire and Trip , or are you taking anything else ?
Speaker 1Trip . And when I was pregnant , um , because as a moderator , I tend to drink Prosecco , that's my my tipple . Um , I drank a lot of naughty and I think Amanda's done a great job on , you know , non-alcoholic sparkling , um . So , yes , uh , those three , I think Pentire , trip , naughty , um , I mean , there's so many , there's so many great brands , aren't they ? Like Bats , pertanicals is lovely , everleaf is amazing , um , but they're the ones that I would go by yeah , um , you mentioned amanda a couple of times .
Speaker 2She's done phenomenal . She is one of the you know , a go-to name , isn't she in the
The future of marketing low/no
Speaker 2alcohol-free bubble space , wine space ? Um , if you're looking for a quality , it's naughty and they get recommended quite a lot . When I ask this question to other uh brands , which is is lovely that we're having these brands now that are starting to emerge as leaders in their categories , you know , um , you must have seen a lot of change from your initial thoughts of not sure if this is gonna take off to to now have you ? I know you can't , uh , you don't have a crystal ball as such , um , but what are your thoughts as to where this industry is going ? What do you think the next few years are looking like for both the mocktails and for Lono in general ?
Speaker 1I think , I think it's definitely going to continue to grow and I think at some point we may not even have things like cam , and you know , because , because the category will , it cemented itself , it's there and it sits alongside all the other categories . Um , it's moved on so much from when I joined um and I think , you know , there probably will be more brands in the space which , uh , I think the bigger players will keep bringing out non-alc versions , which which is brilliant because it brings eyes into the category but then does present challenges . But for the sort of smaller brands , um , I think we'll see a change in , or hope there is in , the marketing of drinks in in venue . I mean , the one thing that pisses me off a bit , um , you know , is that I I get so many hospitality newsletters because I love restaurants and bars and pubs and it's a free beer for father's day , free prosecco for mom , and it's like I don't get it . You've got this marketing team there . Why can't you just say a free beverage of your choice up to the value of , if you need to stipulate a value or or say a beer or an alcohol-free beer , and I just think that there's a long way to go in terms of .
Speaker 1I think because obviously I'm I'm talking to you from a marketing perspective you know where the marketing sits for low and no , within it's very well ranging it , but then if you don't talk about it it defeats the purpose . So I think that needs to improve and I think it probably will , if any marketers and hospitality venues are listening to me . You know you can be a champion of change and push forward that message . Um , you know , because there is , there is money , there's a huge amount of disposable income , um , for people who aren't drinking and they're prepared to spend that cash . So if you can tap into that audience , you will , you know , drive your revenue in sites .
Speaker 1Um , so yeah , I think it'll continue to grow , because I think those trade shows can't probably want me to say that will not exist in a year or two , and I think we're going to do one next year , but it probably won't exist in a year or two . I think they're probably going to do one next year , but it probably won't exist in a couple of years , because everybody has bought into the concept . The US , for us , I think , is still going to be a major player for mocktails . I think the Middle East will be an area of growth for us . Again , they are very receptive to the word mocktail , you know more so . And yeah , I think more flavours , hopefully , you know . But yeah , I think more flavors , hopefully , you know . But yeah , just a continuing , you know , upward trajectory for all the brands in the space .
Speaker 2That's an interesting prediction about not necessarily needing as many trade shows or dedicated mammoth events events , because I like the theory that the the adoption of the industry will be so widespread that we won't need to other ourselves by having just a low no event . We can actually , yes , go ahead and do this as part of beverage in general . I think that would be yeah , let's see .
Speaker 1but yeah , well , you know we're getting there , we We've come a long way as a category and I think , yeah , just like I said , from my perspective , just the marketing around , you know it's getting better . But I think a lot of the pubs are still sort of churning out that beer for dad , prosecco for mom , and not really thinking about that completely missed audience in the middle .
Speaker 2And I think a lot of people , a lot of consumers , are starting to get really frustrated with that . I see a lot of posts on social media about people getting really pissed off about , um , the mummy wine culture , as it's been dubbed , and you know that that dads just want beer .
Speaker 2Yeah and that mums have deserve prosecco because parenting is so hard that we have to numb ourselves with booze . I mean , I shy very much away from talking about parenting and that sort of thing in terms of alcohol , because as a parent myself , I know it's a sensitive area to suggest to somebody that their , their alcohol choices are making them a bad parent . Um , and then on the flip side , you've got these people saying no , no , no , come and drink more booze .
Speaker 2Yeah yeah , yeah , your child and it's , it's , it's very much a mixed message in terms of you know what's the the right uh note to be putting out there to people I like what you said about you know , let's make this communication piece just more open . Come and have a drink . Come and have a free drink , with or without booze .
Speaker 1I mean , I um just to pick out another brand , um , you know , I think it's Brasserie Blanc . You know they do a steak night Wednesday and it's order two , two mains , two main steaks off the ala carte and get a complimentary bottle of red . You just think , well , it's Wednesday for a start and I might want a bottle of red . Yeah , um , and there may be Wednesday for a start and I might not want a bottle of red . Yeah , um , and there may be that option when you get into the venue . But again it's like , again you're sort of trying to entice people with again alcohol , um , and , and all this data is telling you maybe not to do that , um , so maybe those people should be going to these sorts of camera events and it would be interesting to know actually , if they do have bottles of alcohol free red that people can choose .
Speaker 1I wouldn't know they certainly don't tell you that in their newsletters and their social it's , you know , a bottle of red but you know again , it's midweek . What are you trying ?
Speaker 2to do to people . Think about the money that they could be bringing in . As well , though , for people who don't want to have that , who who , on thursday morning , have got a massive presentation or they've got to take the kids to school or they've got a big sporting event on the weekend . So , for whatever reason , maybe they're not t total , but for these three days they don't want to have any alcohol .
Speaker 2But they do want to go out for a really nice steak , but they don't want to feel shortchanged because they can't have the bottle just baked into the price . Simply putting come in , have your steak and get a free bottle of red wine , with or without alcohol . Yeah , just putting it there so that people know that they've got that option .
Speaker 1I mean the one thing . I'm sorry I know I'm probably babbling on , but again , just because I'm in the space , I'm always looking at menus and adverts and things . And I thought I said to my husband we're watching Coronation Street , don't judge me . But obviously you know , a key part of that show is
Coronation Street
Speaker 1the Rovers Return and you know they're always going in , they're getting a hot pot Pint , please , Betty . But actually the other day one of the characters came in and said I'll have a pint zero please . I'll have a pint zero please . Obviously a made-up kind of brand . But I sort of was quite happy . I noticed my husband and went that's so good , you know . I said that's so good , like it's a pub , it's based all of the community , you know , part of the show is based in the pub . But he came and ordered a pint zero and I was like , okay , good , good job didn't they actually put Heineken on the bar there for a while , I'm sure ?
Speaker 2I saw some something , somewhere that they had a Heineken Zero , tap on the bar behind the Rovers Return for a little while yeah , I'll have to look that up there , because that , that , that rings a bell . But yeah , absolutely , these , these programs , uh , you know your Emma Dow's and EastEnders .
Speaker 2They are an integral part of the cultural zeitgeist of this country it is where people go and sort of say these are people that look like me , that remind me of me , excuse me so having these drinks , um , be they real ones or or make-believe brands , which is obviously understandable because you know advertising and all that sort of stuff yeah but having these , these uh , make-believe alcohol-free brands where it just normalizes it and that's it again . We just need to keep normalizing that . It is okay to choose low or no for any reason for any length of time , and we no longer need to justify that choice .
Speaker 1No , you know no , I mean I had a friend , um , and she sort of prepared us all and said I'm going to drive , I'll pick you all up , I've got got a shift tomorrow . She's a nurse . And I just said , jen , you don't have to explain yourself . And I said I don't know if that's because I'm in the space , but I would never pressure you anyway . I said , but don't feel like you have to go , I'm driving because I've got a shift tomorrow . And you know , I think that comes from , yeah , being in the space and being aware and , you know , supporting those who are either sober or moderating and not making them feel guilty if they they don't want to drink on a night out just having the ability just to say I don't feel like it , I don't fancy it and that should be the end of the conversation .
Speaker 2Um , you mentioned moderating , because the majority of people who are buying your amazing drinks yeah are also buying alcoholic drinks as well the studies have showed , it's 95 plus percent of people that buy low no beers and wines and spirits still buy alcoholic beverages as well .
Speaker 2So it is that moderating middle who are who are leading this , so we should be encouraging them to feel like it's OK to be on that moderation journey on any given day . It's not just the fully sober , the fully to total , those in recovery that are going . I want these drinks . It's people and that's why our bars and restaurants need to recognize this , because that person who comes in and has a great alcohol free experience on . Wednesday will come back and have a great alcohol , full experience on .
Speaker 1Saturday totally yeah , yeah , they missed that point , yeah there's , there's .
Speaker 2There's so much great stuff happening . Uh , I think that mocktails are doing phenomenal . Uh , you have won . Uh , I tried to count how many awards
Awards
Speaker 2on your website and I got tired there are quite a few .
Speaker 1I mean , awards are a different thing , aren't they as well ? You know we tried to cut back a bit this year as part of the strategy . But you know the US we've picked up double golds and things like the Tag Spirit Awards . You know we've won a few things in the UK . We're to hear back from Great Taste in . I think they released their results beginning of August and that would be wonderful . I mean , I'm a sucker for a Great Taste label on a product . You know I definitely will pick up that jam over that jam if they've won something . So that would be a nice one to pick up a sticker for . But yeah , there are a few accolades there in the collection , so we'll hopefully add to those over the years .
Speaker 2It's a fantastic sign when a brand can win several awards across several different types of organisations , because it shows the diversity of the range , and I think you guys have done absolutely amazing . I'm really excited to hear that you might be bringing out some more within the next couple of years , yeah , maybe . So yeah , I'm going to be watching this space and obviously you'll give me the exclusive right .
Speaker 1Totally , you can get me back on .
Speaker 2We'll do a tasting . There we go , Pooja , for those who want to go and find out more about you . They want to check out your awards .
Speaker 1They want to buy some amazing , uh ready to drink cocktails . Where should they go ? Um , if you are in the uk , it's drinkmocktailscoukcom in the us . Um , we're doing a discount code at the moment 20 off . So if you put cheers 20 in a checker , you'll get uh 20 off and free shipping . You can buy via amazon . You can go to sainsbury's and , if you happen to be in hospitality in london , you can go to Birdies , vagabond and any of the metropolitan sites and uh try , uh try and walk down there like I said , you're everywhere everywhere gonna be every .
Speaker 2Yeah , more places to come , of course , of course , um amazing stuff . Thank you so much for your time today it has been lovely .
Speaker 1Thank you so much . Thanks for having me on .
