Speaker 1 1:12

We started from there , but we then applied an enormous amount of science on the one side and then stole a lot of knowledge from particularly winemaking and sparkling and champagne making and I guess sort of melded the two together .

Speaker 2 1:29

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Today I am chatting with Mr David Begg , the founder of Real Drinks Co . The naturally fermented sparkling tea brand . If you've been interested in Lono alcohol drinks for any length of time , then it's likely that you've come across Real . On this podcast alone , they are the single most recommended brand by other founders when I ask them what they like to drink other than their own drinks . So I'm very intrigued to know what David's choices are as well .

Speaker 1 2:04

Wow , I'm enormously flattered . That's fantastic . I've got to call some of these guys and pay them off .

Speaker 2 2:12

It's true , it's true . I started making a list of all the ones that get recommended and yours just kept coming up and up and up . So you are in the peer reviews . You are top notch .

Speaker 1 2:23

Wow Fantastic , I need those stats .

Speaker 2 2:35

Buckinghamshire , which is in the southeast of England for those who aren't familiar , and there you've also opened up the world's first non-alcoholic fermentary , and I definitely need to know all about that because I think it's fantastic and congratulations , thank you . I'm sure a lot of people listening are going , ok , that's great , but what is a fermentary ? So we can tell people a little bit about that as well and talk about how you guys have positioned Reel , as you say on your website , to help everyone celebrate life unconstrained . So thank you very much for joining me . And how is life in Buckinghamshire today , david ?

Speaker 1 3:09

Well , I think we're almost in summer , are we not ? You know , after a very rough few months it is . I'm looking out on relatively blue skies and greenery , so I think we're all in a very positive , chirpy mood today .

Speaker 2 3:24

I just went for a walk before I sat down to speak with you and it was burning . It was actual proper sunshine and I thought this is it after this podcast . I'm going to go and sit in the garden , just in case it all goes away tomorrow .

Speaker 1 3:43

Yes , we've got used to that . The fact that we get five minutes of sunshine and we're , we're jumping for it . So no , I think the next couple of weeks are looking pretty good . So , uh , I'm , uh , I think we're going to enjoy a little bit of summer .

Speaker 2 3:50

Finally , good , good , um . So I mentioned to in the introduction , uh , that you make these amazing fermented tea drinks , and I want to know all about them .

David's story

Speaker 2 4:03

I always like to start , though , by getting to know a little bit about the person behind the brand , so that people can really get to know a little bit about you . So take us back to wherever you feel comfortable starting . What was the journey that led you to where you are today ?

Speaker 1 4:19

right . Well , I won't go back to birth . We'll maybe move on a little few years from that point , but so I I've um . Real is uh business I founded in 2016 . 17 uh launched at the end of 2017 . Um , I founded a number of businesses prior to that so I hate the term serial entrepreneur , but I guess you probably put me in that space Not around drinks , but everything from one of the founders of what became Bookingcom , tom Dixon , the high-end furniture design brand , et cetera . So , generally , consumer-related businesses are where I'd say something in the world is changing uh , and changing fast .

Speaker 1 4:58

Um , I'm always interested in in in those moments , but for me personally , um , the real uh , you know , reason for uh for for real building a real brand , real coke um was that I quit alcohol a number of years ago .

Speaker 1 5:12

So , um , I am uh love to grow .

Speaker 1 5:16

I mean , I'm sitting here looking out on our vegetable garden and um , we , we tend to grow as much of our own fruit and veg as we can .

Speaker 1 5:23

Um , we forage mushrooms , we have chickens , we , you know , we're very much um food and food and drink of the of the earth and I love to put , um , I love to put things straight out of the garden , uh , on the table , um for the , for the family , and part of that was um used to make still do um , a lot of chutneys and jams and always got , you know , vast quantities of stuff on the boil , on the , on the stove , stove , um and um , you know , had not forayed into really making drinks , uh , at that point , sort of around the you know , around the family , but was introduced to kombucha . Originally , a friend of mine who had also quit alcohol , probably around the same time a little bit before me , was fermenting this stuff at home and he handed a glass of it across the table to me over a fantastic meal . Again , he's a far better chef than I am . I don't try and compete in that at his level and I was absolutely blown away .

Speaker 1 6:21

Now it wasn't what I think we know of kombuchas in the supermarket soft drink space . This was something he was brewing at home . It was a wonderful black oolong mix , produced something that was almost like a scrumpy cider . And I was shocked that it was non-alcoholic . And I think that was really this aha moment for me of a realization that you could actually ferment something and produce something of enormous complexity , enormous flavor depth , but that was non-alcoholic . You know , we're all used to that's all those of us who drink alcohol , um , or have drunk alcohol used to those phenomenal flavors that come through in fermenting wines , beers , spirits and others , um , but I'd never come across it in in non-alcoholic fermentation . So really , that was the the aha moment that uh , got me experimenting . And then it's . You know , it's been a then , a journey from that moment to get to where we are now , and a lot of changing directions along the route , a lot of surprises , a lot of excitement , challenges , but yes , that was the origin moment .

Product development

Speaker 2 7:32

I can imagine there has been quite a lot of challenges and surprises , because what you were doing and creating yes , there were people giving it a try , and some doing it in their living rooms and some trying to do it on a larger scale , but it's not . It's only been the last few years that this style of drink has become so well known and coveted . So was it just a lot of experimentation and and figuring out as you go along ?

Speaker 1 8:01

uh , yes , in short , okay next , there's no , I don't know I wouldn't suggest there's any whether there's any particular formula to it or , you know , even , even particularly a strategy to it . Um , I mean , yes , a lot of experimentation on all fronts . And in terms of the product , I mean we've developed ourselves , and I'm sure we'll come onto this later on . We've developed ourselves a long way beyond kombucha now into what we consider a fermented tea , a sparkling tea . So we've gone through a whole series of of developments to get to that point , which has been all experimentation . But I mean experimentation uh , at the uh , sort of very much in the garage styles of experimentation at the beginning , but all the way through to now , uh , dna testing and , you know , really deep r&d , um work to get to where we are with our product now . But that experimentation also goes through all of our marketing and selling activities because , you know , if you think back , I mean we were starting to ferment in 2016 .

Speaker 1 9:08

Seedlip , I believe , only launched in 2015 . I think that's when Ben came across Seedlip , and so you know , the non-alcoholic , the no and low sector was really in its emergence . I mean , I remember one of our first trade fairs we did , which was the restaurant show towards the end of 2017 . And the number of people who would come to the stand and go . You know why would I need to give my customers and these are people like you know , head of F&B for some of the largest casual dining chains , people like this , pub chains so why would I need to give my customers anything but Coke ? You know I don't need anything more on the menu .

Speaker 1 9:50

Roll forward a few years and that you know . Obviously , the world has changed dramatically . You know , talking to the supermarkets back at that time , where do we put you on the shelf Adult soft drinks ? Well , we didn't want to be considered at all as a soft drink , so we weren't willing to go alongside that . But now we've got in the beer , wine and spirits aisle . You've got a no and low fixture in every supermarket . So , yes , I mean enormous amount of experimentation on product and that's still ongoing but also in how we sell , how we message it , how we market it , how we connect with people . So , yes , it's been an exciting and at times daunting journey , very fun along the way and it still is . You know , we are still experimenting massively with products , products , and we're experiencing massively with how we communicate , how we message , how we engage consumers in what we do .

Not a kombucha

Speaker 2 10:46

You mentioned there and previously what we spoke about before the K word kombucha , kombucha . So I'm well aware that you do not position real as a kombucha . Yeah , most people would possibly seek to find it in a selection of kombuchas because it's a fermented tea . Can you tell us a bit about what makes real different and why you don't put yourself in that kombucha category ?

Speaker 1 11:14

yes , so we , as I said , we started out in kombucha . Uh , we started fermenting kombucha . So kombucha is fundamentally a wild fermentation of tea . So you take um , you know , if you took a sweet tea , put it on the , put it on the shelf . Your wild yeast and wild bacterias that around you in the atmosphere would colonize that , uh , and produce a kombucha and ultimately produce what we know as a scoby on the top of it , et cetera . But it's a wild fermentation .

Speaker 1 12:16

We started from there , but we then applied an enormous amount of science on the one side and then stole a lot of knowledge from particularly winemaking and sparkling and champagne making and I guess , sort of melded the two together . So we took our cultures , we DNA tested our way through all of it to understand exactly what was going on within it . We isolated out all of our different microbes to identify what was delivering flavor , what was driving that complexity , and applied other techniques again , primarily from wine and champagne to how we actually ferment the liquid . So I think we sit probably in a fairly unique position globally now in what we do , and it hovers somewhere between a sparkling wine and a kombucha . So we're not firmly in the kombucha world . We can't call ourselves a wine , although actually , in the nature of what we do , apart from the fact that we are using tea as a base , our process is probably slightly closer to winemaking than it is to kombucha making .

Speaker 2 13:27

Okay base . Our process is probably slightly closer to winemaking than it is to kombucha making . Okay , okay , and I think that it's one of those areas that people are still learning a lot about . You know , they're , they're it's still quite an unknown , and then you put that into the low and no space as a whole which is still , as you say , emerging , uh , growing at a a huge , phenomenal rate , but from a very small base . So it's a really , it's a learning curve for everyone and that's why , um , I wanted to have you and other founders like you come on and just really put it out to people in layman's terms so they can really understand what's available to them and what experiences they they can have with it .

Speaker 2 14:02

And it's interesting that you say that you're quite akin to winemaking , other than you're using tea rather than grapes , because

Making wine moments

Speaker 2 14:09

it allows people to recognize that they can use your drinks for those wine moments that they may have previously gone to their standard sauvignon blancs yeah , well , you know , we , we just uh and we've , you know , one of many .

Speaker 1 14:22

But we just , for example , won the london wine competition as the best non-alcoholic wine uh on the market . Now that is competing against all of the great based wines . In fact , we did so well that we there are only , I think , 30 or 40 wines , alcoholic wines , in the world who actually ranked higher than us , which is quite an accolade . So , um , we and we've won you know many other uh wine awards uh , and we always sit alongside wine . I think the difference is de-alcoholization of wine is very hard . So , um , if you you know to take an alcoholic drink like a beer or a wine and extract the alcohol out of it , you obviously ferment something that's that's full of alcohol and you come along and apply . To take an alcoholic drink like a beer or a wine and extract the alcohol out of it , you obviously ferment something that's full of alcohol and you come along and apply generally quite an industrial process to removing that alcohol In beer making it's got a lot better because the processes are improving , but also beer is a fairly robust flavour in the grain fermentation and you then post-hop it well , pre or post , but then you put hops into it , which again very robust flavours . And so you know some of the beers out there now I think are really excellent Nyarlik beers . And you know I would definitely call out Lucky Saint Luke and Lucky Saint and Rob with Bick Drop . It's two that I drink very regularly and enjoy and almost don't notice the difference between . They're not craft beers , they're not in the range of craft beers yet probably , but as a really good beer on a sunny afternoon I massively rate it .

Speaker 1 16:08

Wines are more challenging because immediately you take out the alcohol , because the primary flavor compounds in wine are very volatile . When you take out the alcohol you also take out most of those flavors . And so you know when we're sitting down and drinking a wonderful light , fresh , you know sparkling wine that's got those sort of very apple-y and citrus notes in there . I mean , if you take the alcohol all of that's stripped out and you have to then put it all back in . So you're almost then creating a soft drink out of the base to try and recreate the wine , and no one yet .

Speaker 1 16:43

The processes are getting better , but no one yet has really found ways to do that in the de-alkalization of wine , whereas what we're doing is , we have a process and again , we're in patent at the moment on on our process but we've developed a process that allows us to do both stages , naturally , just with microbes . So , you know , we , we ferment and we end up with something that is naturally non-alcoholic , naturally under half percent alcohol , but it's following a very similar process to to winemaking . So we don't have any of that post-intervention . Now it happens that we start with a tea base , although we do some things with tea and other things . But you know , it just happens that we start with a tea base .

Speaker 1 17:28

But the flavors , the way that those flavors are developed , are very similar to making a wine . So , you know , think of it . I mean , please do , denise , you come . I'd love to invite you up to see our from entry , um , but also to your listeners to to come and visit . We do a lot of tours and tastings , but you know , you come to our from entry it looks just like a winery big stainless steel tanks , uh , producing lots of amazing liquid in a beautiful location .

Speaker 1 17:50

We're about to put a tea plantation in as well , so you can wander through the tea plantation and see how tea is grown .

Speaker 1 18:02

So everything about what we do is winemaking , everything . It just happens to be on a tea base , and that tea base is , you know , it's like saying , well , grape juice is a sugary vegetable substrate , well , so is ours , it's a sugary vegetable substrate , you know well , so is ours , it's a sugary vegetable substrate and it makes a wine . So there really is and I think this is one thing about the low and low sector in general is those boundaries of being

Blurring boundaries in low/no

Speaker 1 18:27

so blurred . Now you know what is a wine or a beer or a spirit , or you know the alcoholic versus non-alcoholic .

Speaker 1 18:34

You know , in the UK until I think the law has now changed , but I it was certainly in the in transition , but a definition of wine was always above eight and a half percent . So even a non-alcoholic wine shouldn't really be called a wine at all and it's got to be called a grape . But I think a lot of us would say , you know , we've drunk blueberry wine , or we've drunk , you know , but officially you can't call it a wine . Well , those boundaries and definitions are being blurred a lot in the industry and I think it's one of the things that's really exciting , quite daunting for consumers sometimes as well , because they struggle to then find their way through to what is good . But yeah , it's quite exciting .

Speaker 2 19:16

It can be challenging for consumers , and that's one of the things I really want to do is to help them to understand what . You know , all these nuances , and you know we can never just list everything and say this is this and this is what this tastes like because it's always changing and being an emerging category .

Speaker 2 19:33

There are new and exciting and unique and novel , and some things are great and some things are less than great . But that's just any industry that you find . You know , there's going to be that sort of level of experimentation where some things work and some things don't . I always like to encourage people to say , look , you don't have to understand everything about low and no drinks , no matter what sector they're in . You know it's not exclusive . You know , I think you think about wines and a lot of people can feel intimidated by full strength wines . You know , you go into a restaurant and the sommelier is presenting this list and you're like , okay , well , I'll just have the one in the middle . But I think that with this , this , like these low and no drinks , there aren't really very many rules yet and that makes it really interesting because people can make up their own rules and you can try different flavors and different mixes and putting different things together and seeing what you like .

Speaker 2 20:34

And I always say to people know , do you have a favorite wine ? You know is it , do you have a Servignon Blanc or an Argentinian Malbec ? And they'll always say , yes , I like this , that or the other . And I say , well , how long did it take you to find that favorite ? How many did you try before you got there ? And it's the same thing with low and no . Try this and see if you like it . And if you don't , don't write off the entire category , but go and try something different . Say , all right , I don't like those flavors , but now I know what I'd like to look out for instead .

Speaker 1 21:03

Yeah , no , I absolutely agree , and you know this is our biggest challenge on the retail shelf . You know we're in Waitrose , sainsbury's Ocado . We work with Marks Spencers on some products for them as well and we've got the highest loyalty on the shelf in no and low enormously high loyalty once people have tried . But the challenge is always to get them to actually pick up a bottle . You know , we have to always all understand that the price of our products of products similar most of the people who you're in conversation with are not cheap . On a Waitrose shelf our bottles are £10.50 , £11.50 . That's quite a decision to take when you step up to the aisle and you're saying I'm going to invest £10 in something I've no idea what it tastes like , aisle , and you're saying I'm going to invest 10 pounds in something I've no idea what it tastes like , and so getting people to experiment is challenging . But , yes , that's the most important thing for people to do in no and low , because you're experimenting in a completely new space .

Speaker 2 22:12

Yeah , it is , and it's a leap of faith it is . But I say to listeners and to watchers how much money have we spent on drinks that we didn't want to have or on shots that did us no favors podcast ? This is not about recovery or demonizing alcohol . A lot of people who interact with loner drinkers still drink alcohol on a regular basis and people have to do what's right for them . But if we're prepared to spend that money on something that's gonna make us feel bad in the morning , then let's take a chance and spend the money on something that's to not , at the very worst , not impact us at all .

Speaker 2 22:55

And at the best side , make us feel a little bit better .

Speaker 1 22:59

Yeah , absolutely , absolutely .

Speaker 2 23:02

So , david , can you tell me ? I've got your beautiful bottles on the shelf behind me . So , if I show

The REAL range

Speaker 2 23:08

those who are watching the different bottles , can you talk us through what they are and the flavor profiles that people can expect , so that when they see them on their shelves they know what to get excited about ?

Speaker 1 23:19

Yeah , absolutely yeah , this is this is the bit I love to talk about . So you have to tell me where to start . So , yeah , so we have . We have three products that we sell . What you're holding up there is our peony blush , which is our rose up . What you're holding up there is our , as our peony blush , which is our , our rose . So each of them is made out of a different tea and the flavor that that we're producing is entirely , comes entirely from the , the different teas we're using and the fermentation difference in the fermentation that we do . Um , as I said earlier in , in developing our processes , what we're able to do is tweak the , the different microbes and things we use to be able to pull out those flavors from those different teas .

Speaker 1 24:02

So , peony blush that you're you , you pulled out there is is our rose . Um , it is using a white peony tea which is , uh , comes from taiwan . Uh , it is a very delicate white tea . So it's a white tea . Literally . They pick the buds and the leaf and they put them in the sun to dry . No further processing to it . So it's very , very light , very delicate as a tea , but when it ferments , it ferments to give you amazing little notes of strawberry and vanilla and nougat .

Speaker 1 24:32

So almost you're drinking a drink which is sort of strawberries and cream , which is quite amazing . And you're thinking hang on a minute , I'm meant to be drinking a tea . And this is the point here . Do not expect that you're going to pour a glass and it's going to taste like tea . It's like saying I'm going to pour a glass of wine and it's going to taste like grape juice . It's got actually very little to do with the , the origin . It's all in that fermentation that we create those amazing flavors . So that rose , you know , daylight today . Go out , sit out in the garden , uh , drink a . You know , take yourself a lovely champagne flukes uh , pour yourself a glass and chill out .

Speaker 1 25:08

And what's amazing is you can drink a whole bottle and you'll still be feeling great at the end of it there you go , there you go you know , you know , we all know that moment when we've got through half a bottle or so and we're heading towards the bottle and suddenly you're going . Oh goodness me , I'm feeling the heat now absolutely .

Speaker 2 25:31

I was always a big fan of rose . All day day I could sit in a lovely outside garden or a beer garden and just keep that glass filled up . But you're right , there's a tipping point and then you're like , okay , this was a bad idea .

Speaker 1 25:44

Yeah , well , you've now got the solution . You can be drinking us absolutely all day without a problem .

Speaker 2 25:51

There you go , but still have a glass of water in between , though , because hydration is key , absolutely , absolutely .

Speaker 1 25:55

There you go , but still have a glass of water in between though , because hydration is key , absolutely . Well , then you move on to Royal Flush . Well , royal Flush for us is our champagne . So Royal Flush is a first flush , darjeeling tea , so known in India as the champagne of teas , and it is up north of Calcutta , right up into the mountains and the foothills of the Himalayas Most amazing place . I was there for a couple of weeks last year in sourcing our teas , and literally so .

Speaker 1 26:28

These are beautiful mountain sites and we're talking tea gardens that go up to 1800 meters , and that's , you know , ben Nevis remember is 1300 meters . So you know these are steep sloped tea gardens and you're picking just the , the leaf , the small leaf and the bud of the tea plant as it emerges in spring . That's what's called a first flush . So it's absolutely exquisite , delicate tea it is . Then it is a black tea . So it's processed in terms of it's rolled and oxidized , etc . But only very delicately , very lightly . So it's not like what we think of as black tea of your breakfast tea , you know , big , full-bodied assam . It's a very , very light tea . Even Darjeelings in general are light teas . But a first flush is . I mean the liquid that you pour , the liquor , as it's called , is almost transparent , very , very light . When it ferments , it gives you white peach , a little bit of rhubarb , very delicate flavor profile , and so for us that sits as that champagne , but also food pairing . It goes alongside white fish , white meat , green sauce , that sort of thing . So , yes , a very , very delicate product . And then , finally , your dry dragon , and dry dragon is a green tea . So this is a Dragon , well , green tea . So again , what I would consider is the best green tea out of China and green tea is in China .

Speaker 1 28:03

To make a green tea , you basically need to lock in the green very quickly . So it's like blanching a vegetable . So when you pick a vegetable , you blanch it quickly and that means you can freeze it and it won't degrade , it won't oxidize . The same thing goes for this . So you're taking the leaf off the , off the plant , and you're heating it very quickly , very soon afterwards . So within about 30 minutes , uh , they take big handfuls of that tea and they wipe it around the inside of a wok . Now , for me , I'm sure I would be burning my fingers very quickly . They do it barehanded , taking these big , these big mats and every single bit of the tea we use has been hand baked , hand roasted .

Speaker 1 28:44

Uh , in these , in these walks , uh and um . It makes a very nutty tea . So you've got notes of um , of um , chestnut um in there rather than yeah , most of us are used to green teas being those sort of japanese very cut grass like flavors . These are much more nutty and roasted notes and when it ferments it gives you citrus notes , but also in that chestnut note that turns in fermentation almost to a chocolate at the end . So you've got this incredible sort of fresh lemon and grapefruit rolling into a white chocolate . So , yeah , again , very beautiful again . Summertime , green vegetables , salads , things like that great with food , yeah .

Speaker 2 29:36

That sounds rich and unctuous and very , very Moorish . Yes , oh yes .

Speaker 1 29:41

Some people ask me how long can you keep a bottle without going off ? And I said 20 minutes .

Speaker 2 29:50

Yes , I've never had it long enough to find out .

Speaker 1 29:52

That's right .

Speaker 2 29:56

And you do some one-offs , don't you as well ? You do some specials . I know that there's one that you brought out at

Christmas special

Speaker 2 30:02

Christm time , uh , which I tasted and I absolutely adored . And , uh , you know , obviously I've tasted a lot of alcohol-free drinks low and no drinks but I always say that you know , I'm just your average woman . You know I'm not a connoisseur and I remember , as Christmas I wanted to treat myself , indulge , and I had . I don't know if you saw the picture I posted . It was a box of a Guillen Belgian seashell chocolates and a bottle of your Christmas , and it was just a wonderful afternoon for me how do you ?

Speaker 2 30:33

how does it work with these specials ? Is that , um , something you you like to keep rolling out , uh , throughout the year ? Or is it just that that one ?

Speaker 1 30:40

off . No , we do so . We've done a couple before , so it's sort of been once a year , some maybe a little less than that . This one was particularly , I agree with you , it's particularly good . We call it Tiger Hill and it was a very lightly sparkling red .

Speaker 1 30:59

So I call it sort of a bubblegum red , sits in that sort of beaujour nouveau type of space , that gamay type , uh , area of thinking wines , but but lightly sparkling , um , and I mean we did a , we did a short run of I think it was a couple of thousand bottles and it went like that . I mean it was , it was sold out , um , you may , you may see it again because it was , I won't tell you , won't tell you more , but you may see it again . Uh , because it was , it was so popular . And again , this is one thing in in non-alcoholic wines in general are a struggle , but probably the best of would be , uh , white sparkling wines . The one that's the hardest to do in in winemaking is red , and so we're quite proud of what we're able to achieve in the red wine space as well , because using teas as a base are naturally very astringent , very earthy , and so you can create , choosing the right teas , you can create some great , very robust flavours out of tea fermentations .

Speaker 2 32:09

Tell me a little bit about choosing those teas , because I spoke to another producer recently and obviously

Talking teas

Speaker 2 32:15

I don't expect you to give away any particular suppliers or anything , because I know it's very , um , strongly guarded , isn't it ? It's quite difficult finding and securing the types of suppliers that you want for your teas , for your , your drinks , that's . I was surprised at how , um , how , how challenging it can be to find the right teas for these types of drinks yeah , absolutely well .

Speaker 1 32:40

We , even before we launched our first product , we had fermented with about 150 different teas . Now , before I , um , before I got into doing this , I probably didn't know there were 150 different teas . I mean , I I wasn't any sort of tea connoisseur beforehand . I mean , you know , when I , when I first started making , when I I put on my first pot , um , I put a white , silver needle tea into the pot which , you know , at the time I didn't know We'd been to India , we'd bought , you know , we'd been up into the tea gardens and bought a pack of different teas and one of them was this white tea . I didn't know anything about it . I probably put actually 30 pounds worth of tea into the pot . You know it's one of the most exquisite teas you can buy , but I knew so little about it . But it's what created the business , because it created these most amazing flavours . So , you know , for me that was better than any champagne I've ever tasted and still , to this day , that's probably the best brew that I've ever made . We make it from time to time it never gets beyond our own use , frankly , but at some point we might do a special of it but it created this most amazing rose vanilla almond , and that was compared to this friend who'd been brewing with blacks and oolongs and created sort of this beer , scrumpy cider .

Speaker 1 34:03

And so I just went out and bought , just went on onto amazon and bought like 30 different teas . You know , whatever I could find , I bought a bunch of them and just started experimenting with , uh , with , with different teas , um , and got as many , 30 different styles of flavor out of it . I mean , and it is , it's absolutely mind-blowing because I one of them , for example I fermented and I gave to the to my kids who were in the time , in their sort of I don't know , six and eight or something , six and nine or something at the time , um and um , I gave some , some to them and said what is that you're drinking ? They're like it's mango juice . And they swore that the liquid . Now , this was a fermentation of a particular tea that they swore was mango juice . I've done ones that they swore were lemon , you know , lemonade , or , and it's all in the fermentation those flavors are created , but obviously of different teas , and so , again , we just carried on trialing and trialing , and trialing , trialing .

Speaker 1 35:07

Now the thing is in there . One is the flavors that you get out of it and you never know . I mean you , you really don't know in the tea that goes into the , into the experimental pot , what flavors you're going to get out . It's you can't tell it from the tea because it's how the makeup of the tea is interacting with the yeasts , that makes that flavor come through . But , yes , we just carried on trialing and trialing and trialing to find flavors we liked . But then of course it's also got to be producible , ongoing , because some of them produce fantastic flavors one time and then the next time they produced something quite different or they were .

Speaker 1 35:49

You know , you couldn't keep fermentations going , and so there's there's lots of nuance in there to be able to choose ones that , uh , that could , we could produce consistently . And , yes , it took us , it took us that amount of time to choose just the three that we finally put out . Um , you know , when we went to market originally and , interestingly , one we pulled back in , just before covid actually uh , we pulled it because we were struggling to ferment it , uh , consistently , and so we had to pull away from it . Uh , still great . And I just found the other day , but in the back of the garage , one , one box that's still sitting there that I will be opening at some point . Um , but , um , yeah , and then you know we're still . We're still constantly trialing new teas , where we do it all the time . Um , not that we're necessarily going to launch anything immediately , um , but we like to keep ourselves fresh and like to keep a good set of of innovations go in case we find something that we find particularly exciting .

Speaker 2 36:52

So , yes , it's a constant search absolutely , absolutely tell us about the fermentory then . So when did you open it ? What ? What led to you deciding to do that and take it

The fermentery

Speaker 2 37:05

in-house and take full control , you know , and make the change from what you were doing previously .

Speaker 1 37:10

Yeah , okay , yes , and we are so , so lucky with where we work and produce . So we always produced ourselves . Now , not necessarily by design initially , but so , you know , all of our fermentation started on the kitchen counter , went into the understair cupboard , took over the spare room , took over the garage , you know , went through . It was very much that process . You know . I joke about how I said to my wife one day it's like , could I take over a little corner of the garage ? You know that we can make something . And within about a week the whole garage was a micro brewery , you know . And she turns up one day it's like that's not exactly what I agreed to , um , but um , uh , yeah .

Speaker 1 38:00

So we , at point I was actually looking for someone who would be able to produce for us because , just the ability to scale our production . We didn't know what we were doing , but no one could produce what we were looking to do , you know . So what we were doing was different from , you know , back in the day , the kombucha brewers . Anyway , we were innovating constantly . And so how do we innovate when we're working with someone which is , you know , is very focused on cost as their first focus , you know , for good reason .

Speaker 1 38:34

So we took on a building , a barn on a farm , a place called Wendover in middle Buckinghamshire , about 20 minutes from where I live , and brought a few tanks and set up a little micro fermentory just to really experiment to see how it was going to perform , really experiment to see how it was going to perform . And indeed you know , our first , I think our first three primary customers were the Pig Hotel chain , the Hackersan group and the Fat Duck . So we sort of realized fairly quickly that we had something that was quite interesting , quite good , and it wasn't necessarily that we went out to target those people , it was almost serendipity most of the time that these types of restaurants engaged us . In fact I think still that the first cases that we delivered into the fact ducts still were produced in my garage . I think . That's a you know , I think it's Wow .

Speaker 1 39:43

I think it was the first one , and then we were into the new brewery from entry at the time , but so we stayed there for almost five years , so from end of 2017 through to , yeah , so , end of 2017 to finally moving to our new firm entry in 2022 . We started looking for a new location at the . I think . Where are we so ? Yeah , it's sort of somewhere in COVID in 2020 . I mean , you know , covid was quite a challenge because we were 100% on trade before COVID happened and so our business disappeared completely overnight . But we then started online , we got into Waitrose etc . And so we managed to continue growing and so at that point it was a quick realization we needed to find a new home and we were very lucky to meet an amazing guy called Garth Clark who used to be the estate manager at Waddesdon Estate in Buckinghamshire , owned by the Rothschilds , and he completely bought into what we were trying to do because it was actually very similar , in a roundabout way , to what he was doing . So he is one of the leaders in regenerative farming in the UK . He was the estate manager that created the organic estate at Daylesford , created the organic estate at EO Valley , and he was doing the same , but not organic but regenerative farming at Waterstone , and his primary driver was how do I introduce microbes back into the soil , how do I make the soil a living thing again ? Because you know what we've spent our last um , wherever we are 80 years doing is basically killing off the microbes in the soil , um , uh and um , and you're losing a lot of nutrients in the food we're producing . So his big drive has and continues to be that . So it was very much a meeting of minds . We were trying to do the same with production of food and drink and he was trying to do the same with production of foods , but origin foods in the soil . And it was a phenomenal meeting of minds . And you know , roll forward .

Speaker 1 42:04

We agreed with himself and Lord Rostra at the time to build a new building which would house us .

Speaker 1 42:13

And yes , I mean , it's absolutely amazing to be able to build something from scratch looks and feels like a winery . You walk in glass doors , in glass wall , looking into our fermentation space where you could do tours and tastings and understand exactly how we produce what we produce , in very much the spirit of a modern winery where it is so much about the experience of uh , of engaging with the liquid and you know we do find anyone who comes to see what we do and goes through a tour and tasting become deeply passionate about about what we do . Um , because you really you get it when you you get there on on site , and also for us that work there , it's also , you know , incredible place to be working because you know we're on one of the greatest estates in the UK , we're surrounded by the most beautiful countryside Go out for a wander at lunchtime but also where we work , you know glass walls looking into the fermentation area . It's quite a special building as well as a place to work and as well as a fermentation space .

Speaker 2 43:18

So , yeah , as a uh , fermentation space , so yeah we're very , very blessed with uh , with what we've , what we've achieved there the , the pictures that I've seen , because I haven't had the pleasure of going out in person yet , but I definitely would love to . Uh , it does . It looks beautiful that , the just everything , the the environment that you're in , and I love that you are working towards giving back as well and helping to make sure that we can continue to , to have great soil , to continue to grow the things that we needed to keep the planet going . It's not just about making great drinks so we can all have a party . It's about making sure that we're looking after the planet as well . So , and also all of what we do there .

Speaker 1 43:59

I mean , for example , all of our teas and all the other organic matter that's produced in fermentation goes into composting on the estate composting estate which then goes back onto the soil . And again , that was one of the things Garth was really excited about , because that is full of the microbes that we use to ferment with and that ends up back on the soil and it helps to drive the development of quality soil nutritious food back into that chain .

Speaker 2 44:35

David , my last two questions to you . First and foremost , if people want to get to know more about real , about yourself , if they want to come and visit the fermentary , where should they go online to find

Finding REAL

Speaker 2 44:46

you and to and to purchase some amazing bottles ?

Speaker 1 44:49

yeah , so if you go onto our website at realdrinksco , justco , um , uh , then you can find out all about uh , we do come and visit us on there . You can book tours and tastings we have . It's not every weekend , but we have regular tours and tastings and they're always posted up there for when we , when we've organized , and they're usually out two or three months out , so you can book the tours and tastings we have . We have great groups of people on a regular basis . We sell online there , but also we sell through Waitrose . So we have Royal Flush and Dry Dragon in Waitrose . Peony Blush is about to go live in Waitrose in September . Same in Ocado Peony Blush is about to go live in Ocado as well and Sainsbury's we have just Royal Flush as well .

Speaker 1 45:42

Okay , and Sainsbury's we have just Royal Flush as well , and lots of farm shops and things like that as well , and a very good roster of restaurants , bars , cafes , hotels etc . Were serving us as well . So you will often find us on the menu , and if not , please ask , because if you're pushing maybe they will get us on the menu , and and if not , please ask , because if you're pushing maybe they will get us on the menu , and then you can drink it next time you're there . So absolutely .

Speaker 2 46:06

We've got to let our publicans , landlords , restauranteurs , sommeliers , bar managers , we've got to let them all know what we want , uh , and then they will know to go and find it . Absolutely , and I also love that you're um , you do cans as well , don't you ? So you do ready to drink cans for people to take on ? I love a picnic yes you know I've got two small kids and it's it's very easy way to spend an afternoon .

Speaker 2 46:30

Get them out the house yeah to go to the local park , put down a blanket , bring some sandwiches and have something nice and adult to drink , and so I love that . Uh , you can get these , these in in standard cans that you can just take with you yeah , yeah , I know they work very well for for for that format , you know .

Speaker 1 46:48

So whenever you're on the go , to be able to to to grab a can , in the same way that if you're drinking you might go and grab an rtd gin and tonic or something yeah , definitely .

Speaker 2 46:59

Um , my last question is my uh , now infamous barbecue question , and usually I have to ask people to imagine

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 47:07

that it's a sunny day . But we're feeling we're having a sunny day today now you did mention a couple of brands before , so , uh , we'll just check in and see . So you're off to a barbecue at a friend's house and you'd like to bring a couple of low-no drinks with you to enjoy , other than the amazing reel that we've been discussing today , either in corking cage or ready to drink cans . What other low or no or light beverages do you enjoy on a day like that ?

Speaker 1 47:35

Yeah , well , I've mentioned already Lucky Saint . I mean Lucky Saint is generally my go-to as a good quality beer . Enjoy on a day like that . Yeah , well , I've mentioned already , uh , lucky saint I mean lucky saint is is generally my go-to as a good quality beer . So an event , uh , you know , like that would generally be bringing um a case of lucky saint or big drop um for something a little bit more robust , um in the , you know , if it's , if it's something you would say barbecue it might this might not be quite so barbecue um , it's more . It might be more the cocktail moments or whatever , but I tend to lean into Portivo . I'm a big Portivo and tonic fan , you know , early evening or something , and cross sip as well . I'm a fan of , and , yeah , in the sparkling moment . I have to say , unfortunately I probably don't drink many others because I just drink us all the time . So , yeah , the wine moment .

Speaker 2 48:26

You've got the best .

Speaker 1 48:27

I tend to be rather sort of singular single-minded in that area . There are some good . There are some great other ones out there , but yes , I'm a bit single-minded .

Speaker 2 48:38

I have to say I drink so much , so much of our product well , I mean , that's the best sign , right it's it's somebody who loves their product so much that it is their go-to that then you know that there's always going to be passion in that it's always going to be made to the best and highest possible standard . So well done to you for that thank you very much , really appreciate david , thank you so much for joining me today .

Speaker 2 49:02

it's been wonderful chatting to you and I think it's been really eye-opening as well to get to understand more of the process behind , uh , your fermented drinks . Because , as I said earlier on , I think it's an area that people don't really understand very much and it can seem a little bit daunting when you look at these labels sometimes and these beautiful bottles , but you're like I don't really know what it is , I don't know what to expect . So you've helped people to understand in a really simple and helpful way and I think that's really important that people know that they can have something out there for those wine moments that's going to taste amazing and leave them feeling amazing too . So thank you very much .

Speaker 1 49:38

Thank you , yes , and what I say is don't be scared , try out new things .