Coming up

Speaker 1 1:12

I stand by my medium fish because the pond also contains Diageo and Pernod and Campari and many other companies that are way , way bigger . So , yeah , sometimes we're obligated to people with very , very large budgets . That means , whether you're drinking or not drinking , whether you're a vegetarian or a vegan or you like a steak , we should be accepting of you and welcoming and inclusive , and that's really for for me , where no and low exists , it's , it's like it's not a separate thing . It's not for people that don't drink , it's for people that don't want to drink that round

Meeting Paul Mathew

Speaker 1 1:44

hi , hi , low no nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the low no drinker podcast .

Speaker 2 1:50

Today I am honored to be speaking to one of the most admired , awarded and enjoyed drinks in the low no spirits category with the lovely Mr Paul Matthew of Everleaf . Everleaf is a range of complex non-alcoholic aperitifs . There are three in the range marine there they are for you forest and mountain , and they all have their own distinct flavor profile . But more than just being a spirits brand , everleaf are um passionate about the planet . They are custodians of our land and they are huge drivers of the low and low industry . So paul and the team are quite busy . I would really love to get to know a bit more about the passion that drives that for them and the person behind the brand . So I'm very happy to say hello , paul , how are you doing today ?

Speaker 1 2:44

Hello , thank you very much for having me . Wow , what an intro .

Speaker 2 2:47

No pressure . Well , it's lovely to see you . Thank you for joining me . As we were saying before , we pressed record . I know that you're a very busy man . We've seen each other in passing at lots of events . There's always things going on but I like doing these and being able to see somebody face to face and really get to know a bit about what drives them and what their passion is , because I find that once people start talking about it , you know , you really get to see what it was that made the brand come to life .

Speaker 1 3:20

Yeah , absolutely . Thanks for the opportunity because , yeah , as you say , having a conversation with someone is totally different to seeing a brand on a shelf , and part of our challenge is always trying to convert an advert on Instagram or a post on Facebook or a glimpse of a bottle on a shelf somewhere into telling the whole story of Everleaf and everything we're passionate about . So it's great to do these .

Speaker 2 3:43

It is . It's so hard to do it in passing , isn't it ? Because you know you try , obviously , with your , your designs , with your , with your branding , with everything you do , to put out who you are and what you're trying to represent . But it's hard for people to pick that up in a moment and especially for , as I was saying , you know , a lot of people that come by Lono Drinker whether it's the magazine or the podcast might not know that much about our industry and letting them feel that it's a place that they're welcome to come , no matter what their drinking habits are and why they're choosing to drink a bit less for a moment . To drink a bit less for a moment , uh , it is a is a real challenge , because I think there's still a lot of misunderstanding around drinking low and no , you know that it's , it's it's for a certain type of person or it means that you have to make this decision , whereas it might just be a moment

Paul's story

Speaker 2 4:32

absolutely .

Speaker 1 4:33

Um , I think that's one of the biggest learnings for me as a bartender . My background is as a bartender for a very long time . I was used to telling people and introducing the brand when it first launched to customers in my bars . So someone had made the decision to come into one of my places . I was having a conversation with them . They were very open and willing to chat to me and I had time to to talk to them about what we were trying to do and to to try and make the , the drinking , the bar experience inclusive , and whether you want to drink or whether you're just skipping around or whatever it might be , that's absolutely fine .

Speaker 1 5:09

And this is Everleaf and this was . This is what it's about . Yeah , to go from that to being what is now I don don't know a big brand within a small space , I guess , where a biggish fish or a medium-sized fish in quite a small pond still is telling that story more widely . And how do you communicate that to someone who's not stepped foot inside your bar and has not necessarily heard of you before ? How do you tell those stories just from a bottle ?

Speaker 2 5:35

And that was a big , big challenge for me to learn how to do that so I normally ask people to start with a little bit of their , their background , but we've gone into into a tangent now and I like this , so . So how do you do that then ? Because you know your , your branding , your design around your bottles is it's quite distinctive . It's it's . You know , if you walk into a space where there are low and no drinks , it's easy to spot the everleaf brand . Um , obviously you're bringing together your love of nature with , with what you do . The , the names of your range are very much about the , the parts of our planet that impassion you . How does that all come about ? How did this background in ? Uh , is it , is it conservational biology ? Is that , is that the right term ? That you were in before ? How did that lend itself to then go ? You know what I'm gonna make ?

Speaker 1 6:26

some amazing non-alcoholic drinks um , well , I guess , like like many people , I started bartending to to pay for my studies . So I was studying to be a conservation biologist when I started working in bars and then I had a career of almost 10 years in conservation , working on mainly plant conservation around the world , so traveling to some amazing places , seeing some incredible habitats and amazing plants , and that was my passion for a long time . But at the same time I kept the bartending going and the two things became very interlinked . So I'd be working the forests in Brazil and then drinking at caparinha , or I'd be working , um , working in the Caribbean and trying different rums and bitters . I had a project in Vietnam and there were lots of weird things in in bottles infusing on the shelves of bars , um pisco in chile and all over the place . So it was amazing to kind of be working in those environments and then come back and try drinks that were flavored all sorts of different things .

Speaker 1 7:29

Um , and eventually I guess this was what was about 18 years ago was the resurgence of cocktail culture in the UK . It was a really exciting time to be in the drinks industry . I decided to quit my job and sell my flat and get a bar instead . So that was kind of the origin of the plant and drink bit combined and I've always wanted to kind of look at plants and drinks and use things in different ways . But it took me , yeah , another 10 , 12 years to get to producing something of my own and we had an increasing number of people wanting low and low options in our bars about six years ago . So I thought , oh , that's a great opportunity to use what I know about flavour and drinks and what I know about plants and how to use them to make a great opportunity , a great um , a great alternative to to what people are drinking in our venues . So I kind of started experimenting with plants to give texture and flavor and color and create flavor profiles that I was interested in as a bartender . And that's really where the first one came about , which was just everleaf initially and it was so well received and started to grow so nicely that I was like , oh , I've got lots and lots of plants I could do stuff with . What else can I do ? So we kind of moved to this , talking about the different biomes that we were getting ingredients from and trying to capture the flavor of those biomes from , and trying to capture the flavour of those biomes .

Speaker 1 8:56

So yeah , marine is crisp and refreshing . It has a salinity and an umami from the seaweed that we use , but it also has that kind of aromatic botanical mix that you get when you're lying on a beach , maybe in the Mediterranean . There's some olive leaf , there's some thyme , there's a hint of eucalyptus , which for me is the freshness of the sea spray . So it's using plants to try and create an emotional link to somewhere that I love . Same with mountain .

Speaker 1 9:23

I spent a few years living in Asia , excuse me , and would go cycling in the mountains and there were cherry blossom valleys in the spring . And then you find all these herbs on the way up the mountainside , getting more kind of cold weather plants at the top . So that's where this flavour profile of cherry blossom , through alpine strawberry and rosehip , came from . And then forest is this earthy , bittersweet trying to capture the energy .

Speaker 1 9:51

When you walk into a forest , I often say it's like walking into a party . When you walk into a really natural forest there's so much going on , so much life . So we've got like floral orange blossom at the top of the canopy , and then cinnamon and cassia and vanilla all things from the trunk or the , the trees , and then the the earthy , bittersweet finish is the roots and all those things that grow in the understory . So , yeah , orris root , uh , gentian root , cassia , all sorts of different roots in there to give the bitterness . So it's , yeah , trying to capture these , these journeys through natural places and that energy and I think you absolutely have , and all those flavors that you're mentioning there .

Speaker 2 10:32

um , obviously I've got some here and I have tried them previously and you know you really do , like you say , with the marine , that salinity that comes through , but it's perfectly balanced , it's not too overpowering . And then the bittersweet of the forest , which I really enjoyed , because I'm not much of a super bitter drinker and so I'm always nervous when I try bittersweet drinks and I think , oh , going to be too far on this , like . But for me it was an absolutely perfect balance .

Speaker 1 11:05

I'm not just saying that because before you're here with me , um , we're not yeah , I'm not expecting everybody to like every single one of them either that they're all playing a role . Um , as a bartender , I have all sorts of things on on the back bar to play with , and , and these are just some things that I hope are as good as anything else on the back bar .

A drink for bartenders?

Speaker 2 11:21

And was that always your goal to make it more of a bartender's drink ? Because I know that you recently launched quite a bold campaign in central London . A bold campaign in central London showing Everleaf as and I think one of the favourite ones that I saw was I'm not sure which bottle it was on the front it was Everleaf , or you could have a lime and soda . You know sort of that . You're going into the pub and do you want to have that same old boring pint of Coke or lime and soda ? Or do you want to have that same old boring pint of coke or lime and soda or do you want to have something more exciting , more interesting ? Are you wanting to position it more as a bartender's drink for people to have when they go out , or is it something that you're equally excited for people to be having at home and sort of throwing it together with just a tonic water and a slice of lime ?

Speaker 1 12:14

yeah , absolutely something for people to have at home as well . My background is the entree . I love the entree . I'm passionate about everything in the entree . We want to support the entree . We we love bartenders using it however they want . But equally , I designed all three to be something you could make a really complex drink with simply at home , so you can just mix them with anything sparkling to make a deliciously complex spritz . So , yeah , it's about making it easy for for people to have delicious drinks yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 2 12:45

I . I'm from a bar background myself as well . I was 24 years in hospitality , um , and I think it's really interesting when you say that you know it's about six or so years ago that the request for non-alono drinks in bars was going up . Because our bars are struggling , aren't they ? Our pubs are really finding it difficult and so much money is being lost . There's the the number from the cam researcher gets quoted all the time . Now I see everywhere of the 800 million in lost revenue from bars not having an option for people that want to drink something that doesn't have alcohol in it but isn't water .

Speaker 1 13:28

You know I mean in hospitality . We've been fond of saying for years that we're in the business of hospitality . We're not in the business of giving people a dose of alcohol . We're not kind of dealers serving out a certain certain amounts of people . We're in the industry of of being hospitable , for welcoming people , for helping them have a good time , and that means , whether you're drinking or not drinking , whether you're a vegetarian or a vegan or you like a steak , we should be accepting of you and welcoming and inclusive . And and that's really for me , where no and low exists , it's , it's like it's not a separate thing . It's not for people that don't drink , it's for people that don't want to drink that round or yeah , for whatever reason . I don't , you don't need a reason at all that's .

Speaker 2 14:11

I love that . You don't need a reason , it's just oh , this is what I fancy , you know , and and if that's what I want , and I want to be able to have a good option for it .

Speaker 1 14:21

I think the most wonderful thing that we see when we're out in the entree is when a group of people are there , some are having low , some are having low whatever , and then someone who's drinking alcohol tastes one of the non-alcoholic drinks and goes oh , that's delicious , I'm going to have that . Next there's no conversation about oh , but it's not got alcohol in it .

Speaker 1 14:38

Or it's just that's delicious . I'm going to have that next , and that's how we should be choosing our drinks , not what gets me drunk fastest or something like that

ABV or units on menus?

Speaker 1 14:49

it's all about the enjoyment factor , isn't it absolutely ?

Speaker 2 14:50

do you have any thoughts then , sticking with the on trade , with the um call by some to start putting abvs on menus for drinks ? Um , a lot of people have said on both sides , you know , some say it might encourage people to go for the higher strength drinks if they just want to get I'm trying to think of a polite way to put it if they want to get merrier quicker , and other venues have said that they're worried that it will reduce sales because people will just go for the lower ABV options and they don't think they can charge as much for it . What are your thoughts on that as a future way to share drinks menus ?

Speaker 1 15:33

It's like putting nutritional information on menus , isn't it ? It'll be appropriate for some people and it will be annoying for others and it will be a massive headache for the entree to have to implement it . I think it's good for people to be informed . Uh , I don't think the abv particularly helps , does it ? Because the measure size is different for cocktails . So it's not like a pint of beer where you get a pint and if it's six percent it's more alcohol than three percent . You might have a um , a 12 cocktail that is bigger than a wine glass size serve , so it's quite a lot of alcohol . Or you might have a 50 well , 35 abv cocktail that comes in a small glass . So more about units .

Speaker 1 16:10

But I don't know . I think people don't want to go out and get shit faced . They'll know what to drink , um . So I think having a , an indication of the amount of of units in a drink , is probably quite useful for people , um , but if you're in a decent bar , they should be able to advise you anyway , shouldn't they ? It should be . Or maybe you have what healthy food options use , which is a little indicator to say this one's lower in alcohol . So , rather than being very specific on every single one just say this is the slightly lower ABV choice . If you're looking for that choice , you get a healthy meal option on the plane or something like that .

Speaker 2 16:53

You're right . I think it would be quite a big undertaking for venues to implement and my worry would be would they do it correctly or they do it well all the time ? Because making and creating specs for your , for your list is is already quite a long-winded task . Um , I like what you said about perhaps units would make more sense than abvs . I don't think people really understand abv , uh very well , you know , unless you're working in the trade , it doesn doesn't mean much to you , you know . You know that spirits have got a lot of booze and you know that beer hasn't got that much booze . As to the numbers , people don't really know what makes sense and I always think that units might be more helpful , particularly as that's how our health services talk to us about alcohol . Right , the doctor says to you how many units do do you drink ? And people either lie or , more often than not , they just don't know . They're like well , I had some wine .

Speaker 1 17:50

I don't know how much that is yeah , and yeah , I think you're right , there's not a lot of understanding about abv and there's not a lot of understanding about units either , because , like , a unit of wine is at 12% ABV , I think , and a 1,2,5 ml glass , and who drinks 1,2,5 ml glasses and who really spots whether it's 13% or 12% or 11% or 15% if you're drinking an Aussie Shiraz or something ? So yeah , it's quite complicated , but some sort of indicator I think would be really useful for people , wouldn't it ? Because a lot of people are trying to reduce their alcohol intake , but not necessarily cut it out entirely . Just want to know the direction to go , make incremental changes and benefit from those .

Getting into bars

Speaker 2 18:37

Yeah , sticking with the bars . Then how are you finding it in terms of um , the reception that you're getting ? I suppose you know for a brand like you ? You mentioned you , you're maybe a medium fish in a small pond . I think many people watching and listening would probably say you're . You're quite a large fish in whatever pond you're in . When it comes to low and low um , does that mean that your reception is always warm ? When you're going into new venues to say , look , we've got this non-alcoholic spirit , we think you should stick it on your back bar . Or is it still a struggle to get the on-site teams to embrace it ?

Speaker 1 19:18

I guess I'll start by saying I stand by my medium fish . It also contains Diageo and Pernod and Campari and many other companies that are way , way bigger . Um , so , yeah , sometimes we're up against people with with very , very large budgets . Yeah , that said , I think people people love whatever he's doing . I think like the fact that it's not a line extension of something else . Yes , it's very easy for consumers to understand Guinness , guinness Zero or whatever it might be , but I think bartenders really value that . We're something a bit different and the flavor profiles are unique . So that's one part of it , I think , in terms of reception that we have .

Speaker 1 20:02

I guess we launched five and a half years ago so I guess it was the start of the second wave after Seedlip , if you like and so people were a bit more familiar with the category . We weren't ever up against a oh no , not even gonna consider non-alc but there were a little bit of well , I'm not sure it's quite for our venue yet , we're not quite ready for it when we first launched , but now we have people coming to us and saying we really need to improve our non-op selection . This is absolutely the way things are going . We love Everleaf , we love what you guys do . Can we have a conversation ? So not only are the doors more open than they were , people are coming out to greet us rather than us having to go in , which is wonderful , it's it's great to have reached that kind of pivotal point . It feels feels like we're not having to sell every time we go in . People are inviting us in to present , which is lovely that's absolutely fantastic to hear you know .

Speaker 2 21:01

It really is a sign that the times they are are changing . When you're having people coming to you and saying you know it really is a sign that the times they are are changing . When you're having people coming to you and saying you know , we want what you've got and we want you to help us implement it . Um , because that shows that it's being recognized by those establishments that can really have a big impact on people's experiences . You know a lot of people , for example , around sort of the we've got sober october coming up , you know , and people often go well , I'm not drinking , so I'm not going out yeah I don't want to be tempted .

Speaker 2 21:35

There's nothing there I can have . So to know that venues are saying we want to provide something for you , we want you to come in and spend time with us and we want to make it quality .

Speaker 1 22:15

That's fantastic to hear yeah , and I mean increasingly the entree . It is tough in the entree at the moment . Um , bars and restaurants are are struggling in many , many cases . So anything that encourages people to come out in those those calmer moments like midweek , um , we , we're really social as a as a people , aren't we ? We , we want to be out , we want to be with other people . We don't want to be just stuck at home in front of a screen . So I think that opens up and it makes it not all about drinking it's . It's about that social occasion . So I think it's benefiting everyone .

Speaker 1 22:51

And you mentioned people coming to us to to help implement a plan . I think that's something that , after five and a half years , we've we've got really good at is knowing what works on menus , um , how best places can can list these things so that people can understand them . What other products might go well with everleaf ? Like , we're not in a bubble on our own . We , we want other things to be on the menu . We don't much as we kind of like having a list , that's all everleaf . We want other things to be on the menu . We don't much as we kind of like having a list , that's all lovely . We want other things there to make it interesting . We want it to be a a diverse world for people to explore yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 2 23:25

And then , and you know , none of none of the um products or services in our space exist in a vacuum , and it's a phrase I've used before , but it's that a rising tide lifts all boats if , if we can continue to help these venues to understand what they can achieve with these drinks , and the more that they can get in , the more choices that will bring more people in . And then it becomes , you know , there's the cyclical fulfillment of something that we is going to benefit us all .

Speaker 1 23:56

We were talking offline a moment ago about hard seltzers and the kind of decline and fall of those that the industry is prone to being a bit boom and bust , isn't it ? And there are lots of people saying that non-alcohol is another boom and it's like where's it going to go from here ? And the more people we can welcome into the category and the more great products are in there , the more it becomes a normal part of drinking and isn't like a subcategory . So to me we shouldn't be like there's a space on the bar for non-alcohol and there's a space on the menu for non-alcohol . It should be integrated , part of the drinks world . So it isn't a boom and bust thing . It's just the direction that people's consumption habits are going and it's just should be normal . We shouldn't be having conversations in 10 years time about whether you're drinking or not drinking or um , what no and low products you stock . It should just be a mix of everything in together that's .

Speaker 2 24:47

That's an interesting one . I read an article a few weeks ago I can't remember the name of the chap who wrote it and he was saying that he , you , that low , low and no alcohol isn't as big as the media is making it out to be , and that it's just a fad and that it's going to be gone and it's never going to be as big as alcohol . And I thought to myself he's just missing the point entirely . It's . It's not about saying that this is going to be bigger than big alcohol .

Speaker 2 25:13

I don't think there's anybody in our industry that thinks that this time next year will have dethroned all of the major full-strength brands and that people will only be drinking low and no . But it's about so much more than that , and it's about letting people know that , you say , they're not alone . We're social creatures . We want to know that we are in a group of our peers , and part of being within our peers is knowing that we can drink the way that we feel comfortable to around other people that might be doing the same as well . Um , this , this idea that we're trying to dethrone big alcohol , I think is I don't know where that's come from yeah , it's not a them and us thing .

Speaker 1 25:56

We're're trying to dethrone big alcohol . I think is . I don't know where that's come from . Yeah , it's not a them and us thing . We're not trying to get rid of any alcohol , just trying to be incremental . And if you look at we mentioned Guinness , guinness sales are going through the roof and Guinness Zero is a big part of that . It's not that Guinness Zero is eroding sales of Guinness and people aren't drinking Guinness , they're drinking Guinness Zero . People are drinking as much Guinness as they were before . They're also drinking Guinness Ciro . More people are coming and drinking Guinness Ciro . But yeah , like you say , we're not eroding anything . We're creating value . We're creating a healthy , diverse marketplace where , hopefully , loads and loads of brands can succeed yeah , yeah , absolutely , absolutely .

Speaker 2 26:34

Speaking of creating one thing that I've noticed that everleaf do uh very well and and very passionately , is

Competitions

Speaker 2 26:41

in involving bartenders , uh into creating amazing concoctions with the competitions that you run um , you know , I go to these events . I remember at imbibe you had live bartender competitions going on . I think there's one on your website at the moment . Um , how has this sort of enthusiasm for this competitive , positive bartending part of your enterprise come about ? Because I think it's a great way of spreading the word .

Speaker 1 27:17

Yeah , again , it's the normalising non-alcohols being part of every bartender's repertoire , of every bar's repertoire , being available everywhere you go . So it's partly that . It's partly celebrating the amazing things that bartenders do with Everleaf . So we have loads and loads of recommended service on our website how to make lots of classic cocktails with Everleaf , but we'll never match the creativity of all the bartenders out there . So it's great to celebrate that .

Speaker 1 27:42

And we have our Everleaf Spritz Challenge once a year out there , and so it's great to celebrate that . And we have our Everleaf Spritz challenge once a year , which the winners get bought to somewhere to look at sourcing our ingredients . So last year we we took the winner to Spain to look at saffron and we had a few days of celebrating saffron , a saffron festival , eating and drinking saffron related things . That's all the color in forest weather . Um , this year we've got three winners and they are coming out to explore seaweed and iceland . So they're kind of nice prizes for bartenders to win , but at the same time , it's a great celebration of bartending and looking at the creativity that people have with everleaf and what different things they do with it .

Speaker 2 28:25

That's huge and those are amazing prizes , because I remember when I was working in the bars and you'd have beer brands come in and you know they give you all the merch and then you do a competition and you get to win a tablet or something . At the end of it and it's something I've heard said several times is you know , are the low and low brands able to come in and enthuse the teams to do these things and incentivize them ? And the answer is apparently hell , yes , we are , because we're taking them to Iceland . I mean , I've always wanted to go to Iceland . That's phenomenal . I can imagine that people are just like shaking like crazy to get a chance to come up with this amazing drink so they can take advantage of these prizes .

Speaker 1 29:07

yeah , there's that I think that , obviously , the prize is a nice carrot , but , at the same time , bartenders like to be creative . It's um , it's definitely part of our dna . We like to like to see what we can do and the the brief we have for people is to create a drink that takes you on a journey to nature . Okay , so , using Everleaf Forest , mountain Marine , tell us a story about a time when you went into one of those places or a time when you enjoyed nature , and the stories that people come up with are great , whether they're things from their past or things growing up or just something they did at the weekend . That is a really fond memory . Whatever it might be , it's just really nice to read the stories and then see the drink that has resulted from that . It's a really nice journey to be taken on . I always love the judging process , although it's incredibly difficult .

Speaker 2 29:53

I bet , I bet um . Let's head back into the the drinks themselves and a little bit about um Everleaf as a brand and what you are trying

Good, better, best

Speaker 2 30:03

to create . I was hoping you could tell me a bit about your good , better , best philosophy when it comes to sourcing for your drinks .

Speaker 1 30:12

Yeah . So we've got a wider sustainability strategy which has three branches to it , the first of which is sourcing . So with my background in conservation biology , I'm obviously quite passionate about where we get stuff from and I much prefer talking about living plants than I do kind of dried things in sacks in a distillery . So I love talking about the origin of the ingredients . We've got Irish dulse in marine . We've got Calabrian bergamot in marine , grown at the coast in Calabria , in Italy . The cherry blossoms coming from Japan . We know where it's grown . You can see the trees it's coming from . That's something in mountain , in the forest . We have Madagascan vanilla that's sustainably sourced . I was at Madagascar last year to visit the farmers growing the organic vanilla that we use , to visit the farmers growing the organic vanilla that we use , and we can even trace individual vanilla pods by the code that the farmers stencil into them because they're so valuable to them . But I've been to see kind of the projects that are associated with that to make sure that what we're getting is sustainable . So I love all these kind of stories of where things come from . I love talking about plants versus dry ingredients . So that's a really important part of that sustainability strategy for me , the other two branches are about how we work as a company .

Speaker 1 31:35

So I guess , like quite a few other brands you've had on , we're a B Corp , so we've gone through that B Corp certification process .

Speaker 1 31:43

We're carbon neutral , so we work with Climate Partner to assess our whole supply chain and carbon footprint and we , appropriately enough , where we haven't managed to reduce it to zero , we've offset marine with marine conservation work and mountain with mountain and forest with forest . So it all dovetails quite neatly . And then the third branch of that strategy is that giving back . So we we give back to conservation charities , uh , fauna and flora international , which is where I used to work , and plant life , which is obviously , yeah , part of our mission is to make sure the plants are around forever . That's where the name everleaf comes from , so plant life's a very appropriate partner . Um , and then we support the on trade as well . So working with the drinks trust and equal measures and healthy hospo and people like that in the uk drinks industry to make sure that we're sustainably supporting the growth of the bar industry as well . So , yes , sourcing how we work and giving back amazing , amazing .

Speaker 2 32:42

and it sounds like you're probably still quite hands-on with with all of that yourself . As

Building a team

Speaker 2 32:49

a business that's scaling . How do you find you know that there's a lot of demands on your time , right ? You know you've got to do all the perhaps less exciting stuff the admin and the office stuff , the admin and the office stuff and you're clearly a man who would like to travel and keep his hands in the ground with what's going on . How do you balance all of that ?

Speaker 1 33:13

Yeah , it's harder and harder as the business grows , but we've got an amazing team , so the team has grown a lot in the last six years and we've got some really , really incredible people , so it's really important who joins that team . We spend a lot of time making sure we get the right people in there and it's a really close team . We're all , yeah , work really well together at the moment . I'm delighted with where we've got to . We talk a lot about ecosystems with Everleaf and how everything's interlinked and connected , and definitely the team is working really well at the moment . We've all got our roles . I've obviously recruited people who are better than me at everything that they do , so I'm very proud of the team that we have and I'm very confident that they can deliver what they all need to deliver . So , yes , I'm very confident they can deliver what they all need to deliver . So , yes , I'm spread very thinly , but at the same time , I'm also not the the only cog in the wheel , so I like that philosophy .

Speaker 2 34:16

That was one I always had when I was managing is surround myself with people who are better at what they do than I am , because that's where you get the support that you need . You know , having people that are really passionate about what they're doing , are really driven to want to deliver the best because they care that that's what really helps to to grow something , and I can imagine that within your environment , you know , you've got a lot of passionate people who are really striving to to work to achieve the goals that you you've set out , as as a founder , but as a team as well yeah , they all own a bit of Everleaf as well and are very proud of it .

Speaker 1 34:54

So it's great , great way to grow and we're all in it together absolutely , absolutely , um .

Speaker 2 35:03

What's one of those questions that can sometimes be answered and sometimes can't , but but what's next ? Uh , for everleaf

What's next for Everleaf?

Speaker 2 35:09

. When you're looking forward within the next sort of a few years , are there any um developments that that you think will make a significant change to the way that you , you do things , or is it a case of really expanding on more of what you're doing now ?

Speaker 1 35:25

I mean , our focus is the UK and bars and restaurants . Really , that's where we've all grown up and where our expertise is at the moment . We'd love to do some more collaboration things . We did a collaboration with Tehran Elementary at the beginning of this year on a ready-to-drink cocktail and a can that one there , which are now all gone . I think they've got a few left at the bar , but we'd love to do some more things like that later this year , so we'll be experimenting on that .

Speaker 1 35:55

I don't think we'll produce any more core products . I think we have enough on our plate with these three , but yeah , some limited release things would be wonderful to do In terms of growing in the next few years . We have only really dipped a toe outside the UK , so I guess at some point we need to look at where the priorities lie there . The US is big and scary and expensive . Yes , it would be lovely to be there at some point . I spent a while working and living in China , so we we do have some distribution in China , so it'd be great to look at that as well . But yeah , it's exciting to see where non-out is going and there will be loads and loads of opportunities that I haven't even thought of yet .

Speaker 2 36:38

So part of it is just seeing , seeing what comes and dealing with it yeah , it's interesting you mentioned China , because apparently China is one of the leading low and low markets , fastest growing low and low markets . Obviously there's quite a few people there , and so it only takes a small percentage of them to sort of decide to start looking at low and low to make an impact . Yeah , but as well .

Speaker 1 37:06

Um , the cocktail culture out there historically hasn't been so much about getting drunk . The uk , historically we've we've been all you go out to have drinks and to have fun , to get merry . Um , whereas in china it's more about the cocktail culture is is a bit more of an imported thing . It's about , um , the experience of China . It's more about the cocktail culture is is a bit more of an imported thing . It's about the experience of it . It's about how it looks it's . It's not necessarily about the alcohol component of it . So there's a lot of receptivity to it and , yeah , really think there's a great opportunity there fantastic .

Speaker 2 37:39

And , of course , america yes , I mean it's . It's a a lot of brands of any category , always wanting to sort of break the state , but it's such a behemoth , isn't it , in terms of low and low over there . But , interestingly enough , everyone that I speak to or I communicate with from the States , they're always so fascinated by what we're producing in terms of what we're coming up with and the flavours and the nuances that we seem to be able to bring into our low and low creativity . And I often have people contacting me say you know , do you know when I can get this over here ? Do you know when I can get hold of that ? So I can imagine there's probably quite a bit of call for you to go stateside .

Speaker 1 38:29

There's a bit of a rarity kind of value isn't there , so can't get that here . I want that , but we are available there . We're in a couple of online retailers in the US , so it's possible to get us now . But there are so many great American brands that , yeah , in a way , we're a big player . We'd love to go there , but , at the same time , recognize that there are some fantastic products that are locally grown and and might be really tailored to the us market and obviously that's where their team's based and where their money's invested . So , yeah , recognize that we'd love to be part of that , but it's not something we're going to steamroller into and try and try and break that term .

Speaker 2 39:08

Breaking the states is like no , we just like to kind of join it besides which , you're busy taking over the whole of the uk . You know you've got a lot to do .

Speaker 1 39:18

We definitely don't want to take it over . We'd love to be part of the ecosystem , but not an exclusion of other brands and there are loads of other non-outs out there which are fantastic . In the uk , brands I love , um , we always love being on on menus with them , and one of the things I love about the the category is that we're all in touch with each other . So all the , all the founders tend to talk to each other . We we share contacts . We we share production contacts and and problems and have a moan every now and again or celebrate over a drink every now and again . It's a nice , inclusive place to be . I like the attitude that we all have .

Speaker 2 39:56

It really is . It really is . I was speaking to somebody on the phone earlier on today and it turns out that we know a couple of the same people . You know that sort of whole six degrees of separation thing , but I think in the low and no industry it's like three degrees of separation . Everybody seems to be able to know everyone and everyone's . So you're right , everyone's very friendly , very helpful , very welcoming .

Speaker 2 40:19

I was very nervous when I launched the magazine , thinking , you know , are people going to want to hear from me ? Nobody knows who I am , you know am , am I gonna be able to speak to people ? And everyone's just pretty much open their arms and come on in , let's all do it together . Uh , and it's , it's wonderful , it there's . There's none of that . You know when , when you're , when you're in hospitality , as as you and I were you know everything is sort of tarred with that brush of . Is that the right thing to do ? Does this feel correct ? You know , am I making the right decisions ? Am I impaired by the 3 am finish that I had last night , followed by the two hours of drinking and so many of those ? But within this industry it doesn't seem to be that way . It generally feels like everybody wants everybody to succeed and everybody wants to help each other , and it's quite refreshing , yeah , I think so .

Speaker 1 41:18

Obviously we're competing against each other , but I don't know . The Olympics are on at the moment and it's like the competitors that get to the finish line and all pat each other on the back and shake each other's hands and they all know what each other have been through . It's been four years of intensive training for that one moment and the person that's won has won fair and square for just being better . So you congratulate them and they congratulate you back for all the effort you put into it , and it feels a bit like that . It's a tough journey , launching a brand , and it's it's challenging every day , um . So we all recognize that in each other and if someone else gets a listing that we've been after , it's like well done , that's great , yeah , yeah , the best product on the day . Um , and equally like , I was down in brighton last week and , uh , saw that we were on the list with farragaya , who I know you've had on before , so I took a photo . Hey , we're on the list together . It's great to see , see us building the category together .

Speaker 1 42:18

And yeah I really like that aspect of it lovely , lovely .

Speaker 2 42:23

Speaking of other brands , paul , before I let you go , um , I have a question that you will know by now

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 42:29

that I ask everybody who comes on , which is the barbecue question . And it is perfect because the sun is shining , we're actually having a summer , um , and it's a super hot one , um . So , um , imagine you are finishing up for the day and you're off to a mate's house for a barbecue and you're bringing some drinks along to enjoy , obviously other than the fabulous Everleaf Trio . What other low , no or light alcohol drinks do you think you'd be bringing along to enjoy ?

Speaker 1 43:06

whole drinks do you think you'd be bringing along to enjoy ? As I've said , we're all really well connected and I know loads and loads of brands and I'm not going to be able to shout out everybody . There are loads of brands I really enjoy . Personally , I've always got a case of lucky saint in the fridge for for a beer . Um , I know I'm not the only one . I love the , the punchy flavors of something like bativo and Crosship I really like . I mentioned Ferragaya . I love what they're doing . Bax Botanics I love their approach to it as well . For something that's a bit more the kind of traditional gin and tonic serve , I would use those in without trying to emulate gin . I like people that are doing something a bit different rather than trying to copy something in the in the spirit space . Um , real kombucha , if I'm going to a celebration and want a cork to pop , I love that . The real teas , uh .

Speaker 1 43:56

So yeah , that's a few that is a few speaking of the us , I love the all bitter bitters . I use these a lot , lot for cocktails , non-alcoholic cocktail bitters . So yeah , lots of brands I love .

Speaker 2 44:11

There are lots out there to love and all the bitter are great . I'm really hoping that Ian continues to get more distribution in the UK because in the magazine , whenever we have a cocktail recipe , whichever bartender is doing it , they always love using all the bitter bitters . Um , and it's always really hard to for people to be able to find them in the uk , but I think , um , they're , they're really fabulous . The fact that he's got four such distinct uh bitters that can lend themselves to all the drinks that you could want to recreate are fantastic , um I mean that there's loads of others to mention .

Speaker 1 44:45

I'm speaking ofters . I've got the seasoned bitters down there as well , which I've been enjoying using .

Speaker 1 44:52

There is Amanda up in the Isle of Harris making Wild Eve which is , yeah , very much appeals to me from the kind of plant-to-glass approach of growing things herself and sourcing everything incredibly carefully and distilling it herself . So I love approach , even though it's yeah , much smaller , more niche brand you'll have to to seek out . I would encourage you to give that one a try as well . So , yeah , there's loads out there , loads of people doing loads of different things . I love a guinness zero , you know yeah , do you know what that's ?

Speaker 2 45:21

it isn't it . It's . It's about the scope , because you're not going to want just one drink that's going to be your favorite . You know the different times of day , different times of the year , different emotions and moods . You're going to want different flavors . So , and it's lovely now that we have such a plethora to choose from that you can rattle off such a long list absolutely .

Speaker 1 45:40

I mean , I'm sure you've been asked many times in hospitality what your favorite drink is and I always answer that with , oh , I don't have one . I like trying different things every time . I don't want to drink the same thing for the rest of my life . I want to explore . So it's great that we can do that in and out now and there are so many really delicious choices .

Speaker 2 45:57

That would be sad , wouldn't it ?

Speaker 1 46:03

To have to drink the same drink for the rest of their life . What would it be wouldn't want to ?

Speaker 2 46:10

paul , thank you so much for joining me . Before I let you go , can you please let people know where they can go to find out more about you , more about everleaf and , obviously , to buy some of your amazing drinks ?

Speaker 1 46:22

of course . Well , best place for all that is our website , everleafdrinkscom . We're obviously on all the social channels and you can find me at everleafpool , on instagram and everywhere else . Pretty much um , we're we're easy to get from amazon if , if that's what you like doing , or please look for us in oh , I think we're up to almost 3 000 bars and restaurants around the uk now , so hopefully you'll see us on the menu somewhere soon . Please take a photo and tag me in it , because I love sharing all that stuff . It's amazing to see where we crop up best things . When someone posts a picture up of having a neverleaf drink somewhere , I didn't even know we were listed . It's oh wow , it's another one . Manage of the list oh , fantastic , fantastic .

Speaker 2 47:03

Well , you are in my local pub , so next time I go in I will be sure to take that picture and send it over to you . Thank you very much , please do . Thank you very much for joining me .

Speaker 1 47:14

Paul , take care , absolute pleasure . Thanks for having me .