Coming up

Speaker 1 1:12

You know , at every event we do , at least one person will be like not up close , what's the point ? Sometimes they used to anger me . Be like well , just we're not doing anything wrong , just no need to shout abuse at us . But I can understand where they're going from . I mean , alcohol in Scotland is important .

Speaker 2 1:29

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . If I manage not to strangle myself with my own headphone wire , I am chatting today with the very , very lovely Lewis Kennedy , founder of Talonmore Non-Alcoholic Spirit . I'm really intrigued by Talonmore . Lewis has created a very , very wonderful drink , full of flavour , very robust . It is brewed rather than being distilled and , don't worry , I will ask him to explain the difference to those of you that might be new to those terms and I think he's really filling a gap in a market that we don't have when it comes to darker spirits that people want to replace that full mouth experience . So it's a fantastic drink and Lewis , from what I can tell so far , is a fantastic human . So it's a fantastic drink and Lewis , from what I can tell so far , is a fantastic human . So I'm really excited to get to know more about him and his journey . I would like to say thank you for joining me . How are you doing today , lewis ?

Speaker 1 2:26

Yeah , thanks so much for having me . Yeah , well , thank you . Yeah , it's exciting to speak about non-alcoholic drinks . It's a topic that I can speak about for ages , so I'm pleased to get the opportunity to do so .

Speaker 2 2:44

Good , good , yes , I can imagine that you've got a lot of insight to share and a lot of passion as well , because you don't just go fall into making a spirit if you don't really care about it .

Lewis' story

Speaker 2 2:49

So let's start there . Then tell me how you fell into creating your own non-alcoholic spirit . Start where you want to start , but what was the journey that led to the inspiration that is now Talonmore ?

Speaker 1 3:02

Yeah , it's uh . I think everyone kind of just falls into it a little bit . I think no one really . Uh , with all businesses , you find the niche that you want to solve , you find the problem that you want to solve .

Speaker 1 3:13

But I was at university and I was working as a product . Well , I was a product design student and a few of the projects I was working on were with premium spirit brands . Um , I did a project with glenn fiddick and abril lower and it was packaging sustainability that was specializing in and I just fell in love with the brand aspect of drinks , specifically spirits , and how they are really just amplification of socializing and engagement with others , and I loved it . And at the same time , I was a brand ambassador for Sailor Jerry rum and you know best job in the world . You got to work with various different brands .

Speaker 1 3:54

But I was also a student and I was also working on my honours project and you know long hours and had to kind of get the graft in and just drinking all the time didn't work , it wasn't very productive and it felt like we were partying more than we were working . So I started to look at what non-alcoholic drinks were on the market . As a whiskey drinker , I was trying to find new dark spirit alternatives and through sampling a few I really just couldn't find one that I thought this is ticking all my boxes . So then I , maybe a little bit confidently , said to friends and family well , I could do that , and they all called my bluff . And here we are , five years later still still cracking on . Um , so yeah , it was really just a case of I couldn't find anything that I liked . I had the uh , basic skills to try and start up my own thing and um , yeah , luckily still doing it .

Speaker 2 4:46

I love that . I love that to your friends and family made you put your money where your mouth is and said all right , then you reckon you can do it , crack on and you went .

Speaker 1 4:54

Fine , I'll do that then yeah , well , luckily you know the uni .

Speaker 2 4:58

I was at .

Speaker 1 4:59

I was at Dundee and they have a great entrepreneurial program as well . I mean , I really knew nothing going into business . I knew brand and I knew how to create um , various visuals , but when it came to the things like net and gross profit I was a bit like I didn't know the difference at all . So

University support

Speaker 1 5:15

I pitched to the uni and managed to get some funding to start the recipe development and , yeah , the support they gave us and continue to give us is fantastic . So it's nice to kind of work with various people who are interested in lots of different parts of business , not just the drink itself .

Speaker 2 5:33

That's absolutely brilliant . I had no idea about that , and so Dundee is still supporting you , are they ? And still helping you along your journey in various different aspects .

Speaker 1 5:43

Yeah , we're now at the stage where I'm very friendly with the team and it's less me kind of pulling knowledge and more just collaborating with them . And if there's any business events they're running , I'm more than happy to get involved or just various chats . But also they're supporting a lot of new businesses , a lot of new entrepreneurs that are coming and learning and I wouldn't say I'm the most knowledgeable or the most skilled , but I'm more than happy to lend a hand when it comes to startup knowledge and how to best navigate visuals , financial forecasts and stuff . So , yeah , I love still getting involved with them .

Speaker 2 6:18

Well , I mean , you know you're still , you're in the thick of it , so it's not . I don't even think it's a case of being the most knowledgeable about a pnl page . It's about I'm living it , I'm doing it and this is . These are my experiences .

Speaker 2 6:30

Yeah , um , I think what's really interesting as well about the fact that dundee uh have been so helpful to you

Who's drinking low/no-&-light alcohol?

Speaker 2 6:36

is the whole student population approach , because there is a lot of talk and you might be a good person to have this conversation with , because I speak to a lot of people in my age bracket . So I'm Gen X , I'm 45 years old , and so we talk a lot about the fact that there's a lot of media coverage about it's Gen Z and it's millennials that are driving the low , no and light drinking movement . But it's the sort of older millennials and the Gen X who are probably spending a little bit more money . In your experience , you know , obviously , being around the students being around that sort of lifestyle , the students being around that sort of lifestyle , have you noticed visibly the reduction in drinking habits in the way that people are socialising ? You know , when you're introducing Tannamore to people now , are you finding that they're just more open to it , because going out isn't just about well getting pissed .

Speaker 1 7:36

Yeah , this is like the golden question , I feel , is who's drinking non-alcoholic drinks ? And I still don't think there's a true answer . I think everyone is dipping their toe into the market . What's been really interesting ? I'd love to get your thoughts on this as well .

Speaker 1 7:51

But the younger people are not drinking as much . That's definitely clear . And you know there's a real split between two different groups of young people the people who are continuing the traditional socializing let's go out , let's go in an absolute session and , and which still happens and there's a group of people who have just never even touched it , never had a sip , and are not interested whatsoever . And I don't know what that catalyst is . I don't know why people have suddenly gone . I'm not even interested in seeing what it tastes like . I just remember being of drinking age or maybe slightly younger . I just want to understand whiskey . I want to see what the hype is about . I want to try it and sample it and get the tasting notes and maybe be a bit nerdy about it , and I'm sure there's still an audience there , but I just really can't see it .

Speaker 1 9:13

So what's been really interesting for us is as we launch our full-size bottle online . We're a premium product for £25 online for a 70-cent . So you're still getting 28 to 14 drinks depending on how you're using it per bottle . But I do understand that there's a premium nature behind it and you do need to have some disposable income to buy a luxury like a non-alcoholic spirit . So there is a certain older group of people who have a little bit of money that they're able to spend on it that are enjoying the full size bottles . But over the past two years , as we've started to work with more bars and restaurants and getting our product into cocktail menus , that's when we've seen a much stronger group of early drinkers choosing the non-alcoholic cocktails at an accessible price point , being like yeah , I'll spend five pounds on an alcohol cocktail to try it out .

Speaker 1 10:08

They then enjoy it and then they buy a larger bottle . So it's kind of that user like customer journey that we've been working on to try and make sure that we're a lot more accessible as a brand so people can try it before they buy , and I think that's where younger people are drinking more .

Speaker 2 10:26

I think it's interesting , isn't it ? Because it makes you wonder , like you say , when was it that a cohort of of the younger generation just went ? I'm not even interested in trying it , not not . You know , I've tried it and I don't like it , but I just have no interest because to me it's alien .

Speaker 2 10:43

You know , when I was growing up , drinking was very much a rite of passage and most people who speak to it in my age range will say the same thing . You know you start , when you're about 14 , down the park with a couple of cans of cider . You know being having your first legal pint in the pub . You know these were all you know milestones , yeah , that we rightly or wrongly , you know , assigned to growing up and what you did , and signs of independence . And now it's almost like a rebellion , you know , so sort of like , whereas in the 60s it was like a rebellion of free love , but now here it's like a rebellion of actually I'm just going to relax and be mature and make healthier decisions . It's like a rebellion of actually I'm just going to relax and be mature and make healthier decisions . It's interesting .

Speaker 2 11:30

I wonder what it will do to the industry , because you know you've got people who are , who haven't . You've got people who have drunk in the past and decided that

What do new drinkers want?

Speaker 2 11:44

they don't want to drink anymore , but they still like the taste of the drinks that they used to have , so they're looking for replacements . You've got people who have never drunk , who just want an adult drink , so they're looking for alternatives . And then you've got people who are young and drinking has never been part of their social sphere . So what are they looking for ? When it comes to having something Because you need something , people have something in their hands or something to do . What are they looking for ? When it comes to having something because you need something , people have something in their hands or something to do . What are they looking for ?

Speaker 1 12:12

that's what we found so interesting , because I guess there's a whole thing with non-alcoholic drinks . From a wider perspective , there's a bit of an education piece on . You know , we're a dark spirit alternative . We're not trying to replicate a specific flavor . Um , there's a whole kind of discussion there .

Speaker 1 12:29

But when it comes to people saying , right , so what is talon more , how can I drink it , the easy thing for me to say is , well , we specialize in short cocktails and you can have a sour or a mojito well it's long or a penicillin or a daiquiri , but you use talon more as the foundation . But when we speak to younger people who haven't even wanted to enjoy a whiskey sour and I say you can have as a sour , they then have to say , well , what's that ? And then there's kind of that whole piece falls away . Um , so what ?

Speaker 1 12:58

What's been great is again , I mean even like 18th birthday parties , are people still going to the pub to celebrate their 18th ? You know , that was kind of a huge thing for me anyway . And going to the club after you can kind of don't have to worry about getting in , you can show off your id quite proudly . Um , and so it's . It's working with these venues to . We don't necessarily have the constraints of well , a sour has to have a citrus , has to have a sugar or alternative , and has to have the spirit . It can be well , why don't we create a new cocktail that has the flavour profiles that people actually might like to drink ,

Reimagining classic cocktails

Speaker 1 13:35

which is amazing . You know , it's kind of like freedom of flavour , which is quite exciting .

Speaker 2 13:41

I completely agree .

Speaker 2 13:42

I was speaking to somebody earlier on this week and I said it's almost as if , because we're all building this you know my newsletter is called Building Lone Ownation .

Speaker 2 13:52

We're building this together from both sides , you know , from the producers and from the consumers , and we're all discovering what we like and what we want . We've almost got carte blanche to start again and say , right , ok , let's not try and recreate a sour or a penicillin , let's make an entirely new range of new classic non-alcoholic cocktails , let's introduce this and so that those who are choosing not to drink get something that's theirs , you know , because one of the biggest things isn't it is people feeling like they're having something that's lesser , or that they're missing something , or it's a lower quality because it hasn't got what the original had . So it's almost like we've got this opportunity , opportunity to say , okay , great , well , let's just create something that's just for you . What do you like ? What flavors excite you ? And let's create a whole new world , which is exciting . Right , you know , this is , this is the dawn of a whole new era yeah , I think it's .

Speaker 1 14:48

I mean , do you feel a sense of um duty to uphold the traditions of the traditional , uh , like the , the kind of classic cocktails ? I think that's something that people don't tend to want to stray away from it because they it's tried , tested and it has been there forever . To break those rules feels a little bit disrespectful , to say , the centuries of whiskey production . I mean , is that something that when you're drinking , do you go well like , say , for instance , a sour ? Would you then follow that strict recipe or are you quite happy to explore new ways of creating cocktails ?

Speaker 2 15:24

you see , I think this is the thing , isn't it ? Because because I know what a sour should be , you know , and and particularly because I come from a bar background as well , so I know what these drinks are supposed to be in in air quotes , um , and obviously I'm really in enamored with the low , no , well , so I'm obviously open to trying different things and not judging something by comparing it to what it , what it was . But I find that a lot of people find that , as a barrier , it's a hurdle to get over , isn't it ? You know , it's you . If you call it the name of a drink that it's similar to , it's supposed to taste like that drink , and if it doesn't have those ingredients , then it's not that drink and you can't call it that . And that's not what's right , because in 1912 , when it was first made , it had you know , it's like people know their history of these things . Um , I think that what's most exciting about this is when we do experiment , is when we do go .

Speaker 2 16:22

Okay , non-alcoholic spirits do not taste like full-strength spirits .

Speaker 2 16:26

Let's just accept Whether someone's trying to create a replica , an alternative or a replacement , a like for like . They just don't because they don't have alcohol in them , and until David Nutt develops his Alcoril and brings that out and Lord knows when that will be and what that will be like we have to accept that they don't . And so , therefore , part of that to me means we have to accept that it's time for something new and it's time to create new things and it's time to try new things , because until we stop the comparison you know there's a saying in sort of I'm sure you've heard it in entrepreneurship and building businesses it's a comparison is the thief of joy . When you compare yourself to somebody else else , all you see is the negatives . And I think when you compare non-alcoholic spirits and drinks and beers and wines and cocktails to the full strength ones , all you'll notice is what's missing , and you'll you'll miss what's there and what's been added and what's been created and what's taken time and effort and money and passion to to to produce . Um , yeah , yeah , it's .

Speaker 1 17:33

It's a tough one as well , because low and no covers . Such a wide range of people who are drinking will know for so many different reasons yeah and you know we're , as a brand , not promoting tea totalism .

Speaker 1 17:48

And you know , as we're really just if you want a drink , have a drink . If you don't drink , drink , tell more . That's kind of how we very much see it . And then , when it comes to cocktails , um , you know , have a . If you want a strict mojito , have a mojito . But if you want to have something that's a bit different , that's maybe taking inspiration from those original cocktails , then we've got a fantastic alternative .

Speaker 1 18:12

But I do sometimes worry . I'm so passionate about the storytelling of drinks and the brand and why we've kind of come to drink the drinks that we're drinking . And I do understand that we had a signature serve which was Talonmore Neat with a bit of orange and over some ice , and it was very similar to an old-fashioned but it obviously wasn't an old-fashioned and we had to change the name . We had to call it a ginger fashioned , because people were so upset calling it an old-fashioned . And at the time we're thinking , come on , we're just trying to do something a bit different .

Speaker 1 18:42

But in hindsight , yeah , we , you can't disrupt someone's story or someone's uh kind of tradition , that's . It's a drink that's been there forever . It's it's kind of respecting the traditional market while still trying to promote new drinks and do two things differently . So I feel like it's it's a it's a difficult line to walk just because there's so many reasons why people because people don't might not be able to drink so then want to have that same taste . So it's trying to kind of navigate that in a way that allows it to be accessible for everyone without annoying anyone or disrupting their own story and I think different drinks as well well lend themselves differently to being recreated and some drinks are perhaps more forgiving and old fashioned .

Speaker 2 19:32

That used to be my drink . That was my favorite drink , you know , and I could sit and sip an old fashioned quite happily , trying to find a non-alcoholic replacement , for that is not impossible because the drink is pure alcohol . It's alcohol slightly diluted by stirring it with a bit of ice . You know you're not going to be able to to to duplicate that . Other drinks I find are more flexible . You know a margarita , for example . You know you've got . There's more in the glass .

Speaker 2 19:59

The drink is more than just the , the , the base spirit , so there's more room to be creative around what's in it and it has variations already , whether you want a Tommy's or you want a classic . So I think it's a case of experimentation . It's playing and seeing and open-mindedness and listening to what people say , because you and I could talk about this all day , obviously , but we're biased , right . We have our experiences , we have our preferences . You know I have 24 years of bar work behind me , to sort of which will cloud what I see and what I think . I think it's about asking the other people you know and saying what do you think you know ? Do you think this is good enough ? Do you think this is a fair comparison ? Do you think this is the right name ? Would you appreciate this as it is , or do you think it needs a whole new identity ? Because , as I said before , you know , we're in this together . We're in this together with the consumers and they're building this alongside us .

Speaker 1 21:06

Yeah .

Speaker 2 21:07

I wanted to jump in and take you to your liquid , because I can see that you and I can go

Brewed not distilled

Speaker 2 21:14

down a lot of rabbit holes , which is really great . But I want to talk about Talonmore as well itself . So you created it as a dark spirit alternative , and I said in the introduction that it's not distilled , as most spirits are , but it's brewed . So could you , for me , tell us a bit about Talonmore ? What does it taste like , what's in it that makes it so special , and and what is the difference between a distilled spirit and a brewed spirit , for those who may not know or understand those terms so well ?

Speaker 1 21:49

of course , yeah . So in in my development of the product , my end goal has always been the end experience . I think it really doesn't matter from a consumer perspective , from like people enjoying the product , who cares really how it's made ? As long as you're enjoying what's in the glass at the end and you're you've enjoyed the drink that you've ordered . And that was my thought process going into this whole venture was well , it's non-alcoholic , so why are we replicating alcohol manufacturing processes ? So I started to speak to a few contacts , few friends , and there's no definition , there's no legal definition of spirit . It is , uh , educational words that tells you how to drink that specific kind of liquid . And I really hopped on that horse and was like , right , sweet , that gives us so much freedom to do whatever we'd like to do .

Speaker 1 22:46

I also knew from the get go that , again , as a whiskey drinker , rum drinker , I did not want to create a product that tasted like whiskey or rum . Want to create a product that tasted like whiskey or rum because I knew that it would never be as good as the one that's been tried and tested and experimented over so many years , also with , like whiskey , having to be matured . I didn't want to sit on something for 10 years and then release it . I thought that that's going to take too long . So I worked with some great recipe developers and food scientists to find natural ingredients that could hold their own and use a process that could highlight those tastes and flavor profiles as best as possible . And the way that we found to do that was to instead of using distillates and so if you're distilling something , you're putting it through heat to then use evaporation to capture the alcohol and separate the water , and there's a whole process of trying to get that recreational drunkness . That's the reason they're doing that is to get alcohol to make people feel drunk or tipsy or relaxed . We didn't want to do that or tipsy or relaxed . We didn't want to do that . The whole thing about us is you don't have to sacrifice your freedom or your clear mind to enjoy a great drink . So we settled on ginger very quickly . It was very much like .

Speaker 1 24:07

Ginger is a fantastic product . It's got a great heat that replicates that nice , pleasant burn that you get from traditional alcohol , and it's got a wonderful flavour as well . So what we do is we go through a brewing stage of ginger , where we use multiple different types of ginger , using heat to extract , um , the kind of flavor to make an infusion um with some water . And then we also have hawthorn berry , cactus juice , um assam tea , and we brew it together .

Speaker 1 24:38

So not like a beer brew , it's more like a heat infusion brew that brings together the flavours so they mature together and then we filter out all of the natural particles . So we're actually getting better at the filtering process as well . So we're getting a clearer liquid as we go , but it becomes a very natural blend of flavors that hasn't gone through meticulous manufacturing processes . It's very much . We've got the source of some fantastic natural ingredients . We then infuse them together and then we bottle it , which then just leaves a really warm , fiery , complex foundations liquid that matches a spirit strength , and that's how we feel very proud of the I guess , innovation that we've put in place to create a new kind of liquid that's not really been on the market before .

Speaker 2 25:32

It really is quite unique , and you obviously use other ingredients as well . I'm just going to grab a bottle here so that those who are watching the video can see . I definitely want to speak to you about this . Obviously , your branding background has had a lot of input in this , but one of the flavour notes that really stuck out to me more so on the nose was the tea , Because don't you use ? Is it asam as well ?

Speaker 1 25:58

asam . Yeah , so asam tea is kind of our secondary ingredient . That's the one that really comes in after the ginger and it just brings a lovely maltiness to the drink that I think a lot of drinks can focus too much on the power or trying to replicate that power . But there needs to be some complexity in there as well . And the I don't really even know how to describe it , but the I always say like the high notes of tea , it's very , as you say , on the nose , more so in the back of the palate . It has the familiarness of tea . People love a cup of tea , especially in britain , and I think that it really pairs well with the , the ginger , and we actually use a lot of different tea in our cocktails as well , which matches the assam . So um lapsang , you know , having that smokiness that we can replicate , maybe an isla focused cocktail . Um , I think , yeah , tea is just a wonderful part . It's directly from the source . We can see it's Assam tea rather than just black tea , which is fantastic .

Speaker 2 27:02

And those cocktails . There's a lot of cocktails on your website aren't there ? So people can go and find some recipes so they can go and have a play around , and obviously I'll link all of that in the show notes for everybody as well . So talk to me about the design then , because I can see you've got .

Naming & design

Speaker 2 27:21

For those who are listening , I'm going to do my very best to describe this , so it's a beautiful squat style bottle with , on the front you have an array of different images which are all related somehow , obviously , to the drink . I'm seeing bits of Scotland , I'm seeing eagles , I'm seeing fish . Tell me a bit about this , this branding and this design , and how you brought all that together then yeah , I mean , I was so lucky I was at design school when I was creating the label .

Speaker 1 27:45

So , um , I love branding , I love getting involved and I worked with a few friends as well um to kind of create that brand identity and you know , jordan Breyer was part of that process as well and the whole thing for me is storytelling .

Speaker 1 28:01

It's I want Talamore to be promoting socializing through drinks more specifically healthier socializing through non-alcoholic drinks and for me that becomes the whole process of Talamore is sat behind the back bar in a pub , the bartender can take the bottle off the shelf and say , like , have you heard about this specific story on the bottle ? So we've got we call it like a mosaic of I think there's 12 or 13 different illustrations , which all highlight a different story , whether that's my background or Scotland , like a different story , whether that's my background or scotland , or um , the one of my favorite ones is just one of the really basic ones , which is it's an illustration of a quake and a quake is a traditional scottish sharing bowl which whiskey used to be poured into and you would be sat around a fire and it's got two handles and you'd kind of take a sip and you pass it on to the next person and highlighting that kind of social aspect which we want to highlight ourselves , which has been going on for hundreds of years . Um , showing that drinks yes , the actual drink might change but the actual socializing activity stays the same . Um , but more specifically to the eagle as well , we've got our .

Speaker 1 29:14

Our primary icon is is our eagle , and growing up , I grew up in crammond in scotland , just right next to edinburgh and it's got a wide history of roman settlement . It's kind of as far as the romans went north and right next to the river amund where crammond feeds into the . The fourth is a huge rock and on the rock there's a carving of an eagle which was done by a Roman soldier 2,000 years ago and it's faded . It's been on the coastline but it's still there and eagle rock was a kind of huge inspiration . Looking at the symbolism of an eagle is power , strength and independence , and I just thought that that really captures everything that we want to do as a business . You know , we want to encourage people to have their independence and without sacrificing your strength or your power . You know it kind of talks about everything we want to encourage people to do , but also the liquid itself . So having that eagle icon is very special to us that's amazing .

Speaker 2 30:17

That's amazing . I'll definitely find some images of that and share for those who are watching , and then just encourage those who are listening to to go and google it . Um , did that lend itself to your name as well , then ? So obviously you have eagle and talon , is that ? Is that part of the inspiration for the name ?

Speaker 1 30:32

absolutely . The thing for us is we we've tried so many names . Naming a company is so hard , so hard , it sucks and we realised we just needed to make up a word and Talon . The way we justify it is that a lot of our ingredients are natural and from the ground and an eagle's touch point with the ground is their Talon and an eagle's touch point with the ground is their talon . And it was that kind of nice , maybe slightly pulled together , justification . And then a lot of whiskies and there's a lot of Gaelic in the word more .

Speaker 1 31:11

And when we added that to the end so it felt like it's more of an educational thing as well . Like talon , more sounds like it's a dark spirit . Therefore maybe helps people understand how to drink it just in the name . And also , I didn't really want to have people ordering our drink and worry that people around them were going to be like , oh , ding , ding , ding , non-alcoholic . They're drinking non-alcoholic , I think at the stage you know , since five years ago during the development . We've come so far since , even in just five years , but I was still conscious at that time to be . I don't want to draw attention that this is not alcoholic . I want people to be quite comfortable ordering it wherever yeah , and it definitely does sound like that .

Speaker 2 31:46

Um as well , you said about naming , uh , naming being really hard . I remember speaking to , I interviewed um Johnny Johnson , who is the founder of Unlimited Beer , um , and he as well . He said that it was the hardest thing he did in launching the business was trying to come up with the name , and that there was just a wealth of terrible names . And he was just like this is so impossible and it really is , because you want to be able to portray all the things that you're passionate about in in one word . It's really hard to do that .

Speaker 1 32:15

So , yeah , and then you come up with one and you think , yep , this is it , I'm really happy with this , and someone else owns it . They've just trademarked them all . So , yeah , it's a good survival .

Speaker 2 32:27

Can we stick with Scotland for a little bit , because obviously you're introducing

Scotland's drinking

Speaker 2 32:33

a non-alcoholic spirit to a country that has quite a checkered relationship with alcohol and I had this conversation as well with Jamie at Ferragaya because it's interesting to sort of see . You know my phrase is building a low-known nation . You know I like that . We are a world that's coming together with this , but different parts of our world have different relationships with alcohol . How have you found the reception ? Obviously we've spoken about the younger generation and the students , but perhaps with other cohorts in Scotland who have a more connected relationship with alcohol , how has the reception been there and are you seeing much of a change , because the the reports and the numbers say that things are getting better everywhere . Are you ? Are you seeing that ?

Speaker 1 33:25

yeah , I think you know I I this is going back to the respect of how things have been um for so long . City centers , cocktail bars are popping up everywhere and there's more of a pool to be like can we please have this product ? We're looking for something exactly like this . That's been amazing to see and that's growing more and more throughout um . There's very specific pubs in general are looking for non-alcoholic drinks .

Speaker 1 33:53

When we speak to , we do some samplings and we do events and various things and you know , every event we do , at least one person will be like non-alcoholic . What's the point ? And I sometimes they used to anger me be like

What's the point?

Speaker 1 34:06

well , just , we're not doing anything wrong , just no need to shout abuse at us . Um , but kind of I can understand where they're coming from . I mean , alcohol in Scotland is important . It's such a huge part of people's lives and going to the pub at the weekend or having a drink there's so many institutions that have been around for so long that people really do I guess rely on is the wrong word but they feel very closely loyal to these brands and they're kind of just sticking up for what they know . But now I quite enjoy when someone says nine o'clock . What's the point ? Because we just say , no worries , come and try it . Like , just have a sip and hey , if you don't like it , that's totally fine , move on . Um , and yeah , nearly every time we'll be like , oh okay , fine , I understand that . Once they've tried it , they go .

Speaker 1 34:55

I I can imagine sipping that in one of the cocktails that we kind of show off at our stalls and samplings and the very quick turnaround from someone saying I'm angry that you're going to take my alcohol away from me , to them being like we're not taking that away from you , have it if you'd like to have it . But also , here's a great alternative if you're not drinking . It becomes a very easy conversation once the sampling's taken place . So yeah , I feel certainly people who have had that experience of drinking are a bit more opinionated about it . But once we have a chat with them and they maybe just enlighten them to non-alcoholic spirits are a thing , by the way . I know that it's a bit of a juxtaposition of a product , but why don't you just give it a try ? They seem to come around pretty quickly . So it's great to see and you feel quite good about yourself yeah , well , I can attest they definitely are a thing .

Speaker 2 35:48

You know , it's , it's , and you're right . I think people can become almost affronted , um , by the idea that you know you're trying to tell them not to drink or you're trying to stop them . But your philosophy sits very well with mine is that I'm not telling you not to drink , I'm not telling you that you have to change and that your lifestyle is wrong and that we all know that alcohol isn't healthy for us . If you're old enough to have had several drinks in your life , you're old enough to know the consequences of that . So I never see it as my place to tell somebody whether they should or they shouldn't drink .

Speaker 2 36:26

You're grown up . You make your own choices . What I want to do and it sounds like what you're also doing is just trying to provide options to say , do you know that you don't have to have a drink every time you're out , and if you choose not to have a drink , then you can have these amazing drinks instead . And I think that's it's getting people past that stage where they're defensive about it and letting them understand and realize that nobody here is judging . This is not about saying that your life choices are wrong .

Speaker 1 36:58

This is just about saying there are more choices for when you want to make them yeah , yeah , and if you , I think everyone's , everyone's scared of change in a in a way , and by forcing that , as someone who's relatively young , especially in business , no one wants to be told by 26 year olds what to do . You know , it makes no sense . It just they get a bit annoyed at that anyway . So , kind of coming from the perspective of I'm not trying to change anything other than helping me , showing you a different option , and I think that that's the nice way to do it . I think , like pushing that kind of teetotalism agenda sometimes can be a bit um , aggressive in a way . You know , I think that that's just not how we want to , as a brand , have that the tone of voice is always friendly and I think we always want to do it yeah , as you say do whatever you'd like to do , and if you don't want to drink , please drink us .

Speaker 1 37:55

That's the goal . Have a towel and water .

Speaker 2 37:56

That's the goal well , I mean it's , it's counterproductive , isn't it ? Because I know that when I was , you know partying , and when I was , you know wanting a drink , if somebody told me not to , I said no , you're not allowed to , or that's bad for you , or did you know it was poison , or you'll be a bad parent , or I'd be like fuck off , I'm gonna have two . Now we dig our heels in . We're stubborn people , you know , and , um , I've , I've found that trying to . Nobody likes being told what to do , whether it's by a 26 year old or by a 45 year old . I find that nobody likes being told what to do .

Speaker 2 38:32

So , um , just by simply opening the door , I think that's that's the most important thing is just by showing that there are other options when they , when they want that . And that's what I'm trying to achieve , because when I was working in bars and restaurants and when I was out , there weren't any other options , you know it's . I find this amazing now that there are , you know , all of these amazing drinks , all these brands and people working and trying so hard to create these amazing adult flavors for adult drinking experiences , because when I was out there , you know it was just Bex Blue and you know I wasn't actually looking for alcohol free drinks , so I wasn't drinking them . But even in my bars that I was running there wasn't anything . You know it was that , or it was elder , elderflower and soda . You know a pint of coke and I hate coke .

Speaker 1 39:23

So that's the thing when people get slightly annoyed . Is all we're doing is trying to create tasty drinks like that ? That's , at the end of the day , all we're doing .

Speaker 1 39:36

Let's all take it less seriously for a second second you know , we're just trying to make something that tastes nice and , uh , take it or leave it , but you'll enjoy it if you take it . I think that that's the I . You know I speak to friends who've got such a variety of different jobs and they're saving lives and they're , you know , doing really . I do think we're doing important stuff , you know it's it's still a big part of people's lives , but we're not saving lives . So let's , maybe we are in a certain way , but we're not directly , you know , in the operating room . So let's just like , all have a bit of fun and create a nice cocktail and have a good chat . That's the goal .

Speaker 2 40:16

No , I know what you mean . I know what you mean .

Speaker 2 40:27

Look some people do see these drinks as lifesavers , and they do say that . You know , if it wasn't for non-alcoholic drinks , then they would be drawn to the hard stuff . Other people say that non-alcoholic drinks are gateways to more alcohol and can be more triggering . Wherever you stand on it , you're absolutely right , lewis . Wherever you stand on it , you're absolutely right , lewis . This is not a when people get so het up about it and they get so angry . And you see , particularly online , you know the trolls and the vitriol and the . What's the point in that ? And you're ruining lives and you're ruining the pub industry . It's like , dude , just chill out . We're just making a drink that tastes like .

Speaker 1 40:57

If you don't like it , don't drink it and that's why I feel very strongly about that as well . I love hospitality venues . I think that there's like such a nice thing about going

Low no in pubs

Speaker 1 41:09

into a pub and meeting your friends and as people start to drink less , I worry about those venues . I think that you know people who's going to go if they're not drinking alcohol . If it wasn't for non-alcoholic drinks , maybe holding up a certain part of that lost audience , um , so I think you know anyone who does say that non-alcoholic drinks are ruining pubs . I think I think in many ways we're saving pubs and that's what .

Speaker 1 41:35

Whether I'm kind of on my high horse or not , I think that I love the idea of still going to the pub and having a non-alcoholic drink . I'd rather do that than , kind of on a weekend . That's a really nice plan for me . That's how I enjoy spending my time . Yeah , sometimes you can have a beer , but I can also have a non-alcoholic drink . I can have a towel and more . So , yeah , I do think I feel very strongly and proud of the fact that non-alcoholic drinks are providing and helping with the hospitality movement in a different direction .

Speaker 2 42:06

Absolutely One hundred percent . I mean , there's the numbers , aren't there All the studies from CAM about how much money is lost from our on trade by not having something to upsell to somebody who goes I'm not drinking . Having something to upsell to somebody who goes I'm not drinking , I'll just have some water . And you know we're looking at 800 million pounds that could be put across the bar into the tills by having non-alcohol beers and wines and cocktails and spirits and just something for people to go . All right , I can have something nice . Or , like you say , people who are going in , you still be having a drink . You know you can be drinking and decide that . Do you know what ? I want ? To slow down , I'm going to have a non-alcohol this time . Or you know one for the road . All right , guys , you have an extra one , but I'm just going to have an alcohol-free beer . You know it's not just a case of we're not drinking so we're going to stay at home and watch Coronation Street street .

Speaker 2 43:01

You know there are other things . People want to go out and it's also opening up , I think , a whole nother world to of of hospitality and socializing . You know you've got the um sort of competitive socializing with things like your axe for throwing and your mini golf and things like that . And you know , I'm shocked . I'm always shocked . You've got axe throwing and then there's a bar of like . That doesn't seem like a really good idea . I appreciate that you can't drink before you start , but it doesn't seem like a good mix . Let's throw a whole bunch of alcohol-free drinks in there , or low-no and light drinks in there , and and allow people to keep drinking and and keep having a good time without , you know , putting themselves or anybody else in in extra peril whilst building an axe .

Speaker 1 43:41

Oh well that's a great opportunity . There's a great company called Black Axe Throwing and they have one of the best non-alcoholic bars next to the axe throwing . You're totally right . I can't imagine how axe throwing and drinking alcohol would pair well . But yeah , they've got fantastic bars um all over the country , so I definitely would recommend black axe . They're they're great I'm not sure endorsements . I'm not paid by them , but I I do feel very strong . I like the , I like what they're doing .

Speaker 2 44:08

It's cool no , that's cool . That's cool because people are always looking for things to do , right , so they're looking for places to go and hang out , so I shall . I'll google them myself and link them in the show notes below .

Speaker 1 44:18

Yeah , sweet cool .

Speaker 2 44:20

Lewis , before I let you go , where can people go and find out more about you ? Because you're obviously

More Talonmore

Speaker 2 44:26

a very impassioned man who is doing something absolutely amazing . Your drink tastes fantastic . People need to go and try a bottle and they want to find out more about you and what you might be up to and what might be coming next .

Speaker 1 44:40

Where's the best place for them to go ? Go , yeah , so the best place is on our website , talonmoredrinkscom . We've got all of our information , our signature serves on there . You can also purchase bottles on our website . Um , we've got some really exciting um projects coming up . We're releasing our ready to drink cans soon , which will have kind of functional ingredients that are , I don't think , anyone's used before . So it's quite exciting in drinks . So that's really exciting . So stay tuned on there . There's a newsletter on our website where you can get those updates . And , yeah , check us out in your local pubs and restaurants .

Speaker 1 45:13

Hopefully and if it's not there ask for it and we can hopefully get in that and quite nice absolutely , and I'm excited about that .

Speaker 2 45:20

The , the rtd when , when are you going to be launching that ?

Speaker 1 45:24

I think in the next uh couple of months you know , just just shy of two months uh , we're using uh mushrooms actually as the the kind of key . So it's a bit of a cognitive cocktail which I think it's going to be really exciting and , uh , yeah , looking forward to getting everyone trying it . Be It'll be great Cognitive cocktail .

Speaker 2 45:40

I like that . That sounds fantastic , Lewis . Last question is the barbecue question . I'm not sure what the weather is like up in Scotland right now . Hopefully you're getting some sun

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 45:52

.

Speaker 1 45:53

It's not raining , it's for once .

Speaker 2 45:55

Yeah , so that's summer , right ? If it's not raining , that means it's summer in Scotland , time for the winter , so it's not raining , and your mate's having a barbecue , and obviously when you go to a barbecue you bring in a couple of drinks along to enjoy . Obviously , a bottle of Tannamore or , if it's in a couple of months , a can of Tannamore ready to drink is top of the list . But other than your own fantastic brand , what other low , no or light drinks would you be enjoying on a day like that ?

Speaker 1 46:25

yeah , I think um barbecue got to have some beer . Uh got a really great scottish non-alcoholic beer company , jump ship uh , good friends of ours , so I have to have some jump ship cans and we've got such a great selection as well , so different beer for everyone . And I think uh barbecue also has to have some sort of spritz . So I love wilfred's um big fan of wilfred's , they do fantastic spritz and we've got a partner cocktail with them , the wilmore spritz as well , so we can try both together and uh , yeah , I'm a bit of collaboration . So , yeah , jump ship and wilfred's are barbecue musts for me excellent , great choices , great choices .

Speaker 2 47:04

I saw that actually , because you do , you've got , you've had a done a couple of collaborations , haven't you ? Yeah , just partnering with .

Speaker 1 47:15

that's the nice thing about non-alcoholic drinks we're all doing something different and cocktails encourage collaboration . So , yeah , we try and mix and match as much as we can and get different flavours , different style of drinks , and we've come up with some really great cocktails throughout that process . So , yeah , we're going to continue to see who we can partner with and keep expanding our range of cocktails .

Speaker 2 47:37

Excellent , excellent . Range of cocktails , excellent , excellent , well , so if there's anybody out there who's listening , uh , a brand , uh , who would like to do a collaboration , then I encourage you to reach out , because the ones that you've done and the ones I've seen your website look absolutely amazing , because you did one with jump ship as well , and I really want to try that . So , um , I'm going to give that one a go yeah , that's a great one .

Speaker 2 47:55

Lewis , thank you so much for joining me . I've really enjoyed chatting to you and I'd love to invite you to come back onto the podcast perhaps a little bit further down the line when you're in the next chapter of your adventure , because I'm sure there's a lot more ground we can cover . But for now , thank you so much for joining me thanks so much for having me really appreciate that .