Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

It's going to be cooler to buy a non-alcoholic drink than an alcoholic drink sooner rather than later . So , as people get better , as Pankaj came out , as Guinness Zero Zero came out , as Big Drop came out , as Lucky Saint came out , everyone was like , well , we're going to have to make a better drink , and that's from the producers right through to the marketeers , right through to the brewers .

Speaker 2 1:33

Hi , hi Lono Nation , and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast .

Speaker 2 1:43

Today I'm very excited to be talking to somebody that I have met virtually and in person a while ago , and we've both been on a bit of a journey over the last year or so , which we've just been chatting about , and that is the lovely John Logue from a brand new beverage called Chance Cider . Now , john comes from a varied background where he's worked with some corporates and some big name alcohol brands to more independent startups , and now he's on his own journey as of recording . His cider is so brand new that it only came off the bottling line a couple of weeks ago , and I'm very , very proud to be able to say that I've got a couple of bottles here . So if you're in the video , you can to be able to say that I've got a couple of bottles here . So if you're in the video , you can see them behind me , and I've just poured a glass so you can see how fabulous it looks as well . So , John , thank you for joining me . How are you other than probably really tired ?

Speaker 1 2:31

Yeah , just I mean , the whole process is very exciting and it becomes a bit of a bottleneck where you know there's conceptual stuff and then it starts to become real . And yeah , like you said , I took my family Kodiak Skoda down to a bottling line to see if it was real and took 12 cases back and then in the last week we've moved it to warehouses and stuff . So very exciting , still on the crest of excitement .

Speaker 2 2:54

So , bearing up tired , wise , but with two kids , like energy and sleeps long ago I think I remember it's a myth , is it's just like this , this mythical thing that you remember from your youth , where you used to be able to sleep in all day , get up when you're ready , do what you need to do . But now , no , now you're running a business , you've got things to do and the little people don't care , because they want you to play Lego and watch TV and all the challenges .

Speaker 1 3:21

Totally . But it's fine , my wife will tell you I'd rather be playing Lego most of the time .

Speaker 2 3:27

Fair enough , fair enough . So , john , this is really exciting . I'm so happy for you . When you said that you were doing this , I thought you know , it's so wonderful to see somebody taking a leap in something that they're really passionate about ,

John's story

Speaker 2 3:40

and obviously we'll talk a bit about your background and your experiences in the beverage industry and the low-no space . But what was it that led you to go all right , bugger it , I'm going for it , I'm going to launch my own cider .

Speaker 1 3:54

Tell me the journey that led you to where you are today so it'd be remiss not to call out my friend Matt , who has been a long time kind of he's younger than me but far more successful and um , he's , uh , he's always been chatting to me as like a , um , a kind of mentor , and it was in this , in this room , on the phone to him , and he just sort of said why don't you do something yourself ? And he kept on giving me these milestones and he was like I'm going to call you in three months and you better have come up with an idea . And then it was like in three months time , and and it ended up with him saying , when the , when the concept had kind of been rounded , he was like if you don't do this in the next six months , I'll do it to spite you . And like the ultimate kind of kick up the ass was that . And um , yeah , I guess you know not to go into too much detail , but you can .

Speaker 1 4:41

But my background is in no and low in startups , in cider , and I'm a cider consumer , I like all drinks , but I just was that classic like mirror search of going why is there not a really great non-alcohol cider ? So if you can't beat them , join them . I thought I'll try and make one .

Speaker 2 5:04

I love that , I love that and um , shout out to your friend Matt , what a good friend that is , because that was the accountability and the motivation that you needed to just get you moving on something that you clearly wanted to do . That's , that's great .

Speaker 1 5:20

Yeah , and I think I mean my consultancy business was by mistake , you know , like I was forced into that space and I guess what that did is it taught me the kind of to get rid of the fear of doing something on your own , because a lot of my friends who are teachers are like , oh , I need a paycheck , I need to know , and I was like I've been sacked from far more intensive and higher paid jobs than you know , than working for myself , and I kind of thought , well , if , if , I am in charge of my destiny , that's great . And then to go the next step , to go well , instead of being because my job is to kind of work with founders and help them accelerate with what they're doing , to then go right , well , let's understand how you get investment and make bottles and bottle and design labels and all the other kind of stuff which is part of the fun . But yeah , matt's little kick up the bun was will definitely be in the book , hopefully if we're successful .

Learning to build a brand

Speaker 2 6:13

So tell me about a bit of that background work that you did then . So you know you had your own consultancy , you're working with founders . You're you're helping them to launch brands in the low and no space . You've seen people going through what can only be a highly stressful time . I'm presuming you see from the smile on your face you're agreeing yeah , um what ? What was it that you took from there then ? That then enabled you to go ahead and go right . I think I've got the pieces and can start putting them together .

Speaker 1 6:45

Yeah , I think there's two bits to it .

Speaker 1 6:47

There's obviously a huge amount of learning that I was able to take to mitigate my own mistakes , but that's kind of my job with them .

Speaker 1 6:55

You know , to go in as a consultant in marketing sounds very fluffy , but really my job is to come in and help a founder start to relinquish some of their control , to not be the creative director , but I always say that I'll take your idea from a seven to a 10 by getting rid of some of the mistakes you might do but also help you execute it .

Speaker 1 7:16

Getting rid of some of the mistakes you might do , but also help you execute it . And I think all of those learnings because you know a background at Diageo for seven years and then to work on Recorder League five years around the world , understanding how that not the flavoured cider category built and then leaving there to go to Brewdog , which is the carnage which you can expect , but you know seeing how that adaptation of craft beer went through . And then going to Atom Brands , which is a slightly bigger company but still founder led , and actually what was really interesting there is seeing how they were integrating into a bigger business because they're owned by ABI . So working on bathtub gin with you know 600 ABI sales team you know , and teaching them how that works is another kind of trick , and I guess what I was starting to learn is go right , well , what is the end to end of this ? So then , being part of lucky saints journey , which is amazing and really that was starting to solidify my understanding of and this was the big oh shit moment .

Speaker 1 8:12

I know I'm allowed to swear right yeah yeah , there's kind of two parts to any emerging category and there's the big boys and girls who kind of push open the doors , and that's in beer Heineken and Peroni and Guinness and then maybe in spirits it might be Xero , tanqueray and so on and so forth . But a consumer will always then want to have a brand . That's a bit more for them . We use the word challenger , different kind of elements , but really what it's doing is , instead of an innovation department responding to an insight , you've got a brand which is made for that category .

Speaker 1 8:46

Because there was passion and at lucky saying , we always talked about how we weren't a non-alc beer . We were just a style of beer like don't define yourself as that . So lucky Saint was this first mover where it went no , no , we're a beer because we want to be a non-alcohol beer , not because there's an opportunity to fill some gaps in volume . And fair play to all the big boys and girls who create that kind of movement . So then , looking at cider , I went OK , well , what if I'm that person ? And Thatchers have started to do it in that bigger movement . But there then became this interesting fact that if you and I wanted to make a gin or we wanted to make a beer , we can pop onto eBay and buy all the kit and we can probably get hold of some neutral spirit or some grain and we can kind of build it .

Speaker 1 9:58

But cider is very different because if you're not in the culture , if you're not in the world where you get the apples , you need to kind of find that part . And I think that was the big kind of tricky bit for me to find someone that could make the cider with me . But all of the learnings over the time of my career just helped me , hopefully , make less mistakes . I will make mistakes , but you know , I think that was the big thing . And for me personally , I love working with clients and I love working with people . But there is always that moment where you kind of sat there going you should do this , like this is , this is the right thing to do . So now I don't need to , you know , argue with anyone . It's , it's my own decision and there's a certain freedom that comes with that . But there's also a huge amount of fear because obviously it's all on me now .

Speaker 2 10:41

I hear you . I hear you in everything that you said there . You know it's really exciting , isn't it ? And you're finally taking that leap and doing something that you have a passion for and it's the buck stops with you . You know this is your baby . We both have kids , so we know we say this is your baby . You know this is something that you nurture and you grow and you turn it into something mature and respectable that can stand on its own two feet . Turn it into something mature and respectable that can stand on its own two feet . You know that's the sort of plan , but it's it's .

Speaker 2 11:10

It's hard work and it's scary because there isn't a handbook . Is there ? There isn't a . This is exactly what you do , exactly what you do in the next step , and this is a result that you're going to get . So it's still a huge leap of faith , even for somebody with your background and experience , to go into , as you say , particularly as there's no easy shortcuts by buying a , a you know , a homestead . We've got a homestead . My husband used to like making gins at , at home . Um , not yet . Have we found a home ?

Speaker 1 11:40

uh , apple pressed , a cider maker but , um , yeah , I guess the the excitement is is is is what is so thrilling , because you are touching all of these different bits and and a lot of what I'm trying to do with chance is obviously develop a brand which fits a consumer and customer purpose and all of the elements .

Speaker 1 12:01

But I also found myself sort of two phone calls away from experts and mates and spending 20 years in the industry and trying to be a good person means that when you do want to develop your label , I can bring my friend Sally or I do want to look at digital copywriting or LinkedIn or build my website . So I was also able to kind of not just utilize the strategic elements , but I don't want to use the word like you know , your black book , black book , your kind of contacts . But I'd almost spent the last 15 years finding all the good people who were good at their jobs and , yeah , that's been awesome as well to kind of go to those long-standing relationships and kind of say , because we , you know you would work with them in different client elements , but to kind of go , hey , fancy jumping on the , on the bucking bronco on this , which is great as well it's what they say .

Speaker 2 12:50

That old adage is not what you know , it's who you know . Um , I happen to think it's a combination of the both , because you can know all the right people , but if you don't know what you're trying to do or how you're going to do it , it won't work . But it's good and I find that within this industry there are a lot of people that really want to help each other . It is very much a . It's a community that the the low and low industry , that that wants to come together and see other people succeed . I don't think I've spoken to anybody on this podcast yet who hasn't made a point of saying the more successful low , no and light drinks there are out there , the better it is for all of us , be that both brands and consumers as well all ships rise right right , exactly .

Speaker 2 13:33

So tell me about the liquid then . So I've got a bottle well , I've got a couple of bottles here . This stuff ,

Clean Cider: How it's made

Speaker 2 13:40

this stuff , yeah , this stuff here , yeah , so we've got . Um , you know , you've created this , as I said in the introduction , it's only just come out of the bottling line . Uh , that must have been a day and a half for you . Um , but tell me about the inside , this beautiful golden colored liquid so again , understanding different elements of my kind of journey in non-alc .

Speaker 1 14:05

When we um at record at Record League we developed the non-alcoholic of Record League and that was very much a kind of style where it's not wholly an alcoholic kind of style of drink because of the style of cider . So removing the alcohol I didn't really wasn't part of , because it's produced by Record League in Sweden , so it was more the concept there by record league in sweden , so it's more the concept there . Them being part of lucky saint and understanding how they remove alcohol was really really interesting and and not filtering it to keep the body in the mouth feel and a lot of the sensibilities of it . And then working with the brilliant lad that guides it at crossip and I know you've , you know you spoke to carl carl had this wonderful insight of saying , well , alcohol does three . You have the inebriation of it , you have the kind of vibe of it , you know the occasion , the sound , the smell , all of that kind of stuff . But it also has a physiological element and that we talked a lot about across . It was about mouthfeel . So then when I landed at Chance I knew that I had to create something which tasted great . I wanted to have elements of alcohol in it . But I wanted to have elements of alcohol in it . But I wanted to have the behaviors of alcohol .

Speaker 1 15:15

And working with Aston Manor who produced my liquid , it's so fascinating because what they effectively do is they produce a high ABV cider which comes from the apple pressing and you get to meet the farmers and you see all that amazing stuff . So it sits around 11% and then we de-alcoholize it down , the same way you do with Guinness or with whiskey with water . So Guinness is I used to work for Guinness , so sorry to go on about my CV but they produce liquid at like nine and a half percent and then , depending on where it goes , they cut it down with water . So it's a very old adage . We've all had cast drink . We might be lucky enough to cast drink whiskey that's cut with water . So when you de-alkalize it down , we then have this issue that I still wanted this bittersweet , this mouthfeel , this texture which in lucky saint they don't filter , but inside you can't , because obviously there's lots of things in apples that you have to kind of pull out . So what we do is we blend back in a very strong cordial and effect which is basically pure apple juice which they um remove all the the water from and it becomes this really interesting kind of extra element to blend in , a bit like you would have a whiskey which has its grain whiskey and then you put a malt in in a blend .

Speaker 1 16:19

I always think in these kind of like cross-category ways what we wanted to do is we took these very bittersweet apple flavors . So so the ones on here which are fantastic I found out the other day as well that the likes of the Debonair and the Michelle and Vicky and Fiona they're all named after these trailblazing female cider people , which I think is really cool and what that does . That bittersweet element when it's blended back in , it gives more of that body back to the flavor and I wanted to sip that . It wasn't overly sweet , it was more in that kind of aspels , that east coast style of of apple cider . So all of those kind of factors of my learnings from lucky saying and my learnings from uh cross it and my kind of experience at record league and then sprinkle on some af work at brew dog , it was okay . Well , if we can get all this together it'll be great .

Speaker 1 17:09

And I guess the final thing that I was really interested in is a lot of cider is drunk on in pints and it's decanted from bigger bottles and I've always had this obsession that people want to drink a bottle of cider like they drink a bottle of beer .

Speaker 1 17:22

Now , whether that's just in your occasion with your mates , you're all drinking the same size skew . But I also think from my time in australia there's a big market for these 330 more bottles of cider . So the two big things I wanted to do was make a liquid that kind of stood up against all of those principles of what alcohol should behave like , without the psychosomatic and the the kind of neurological elements of alcohol being in it . But I also wanted it being a really cool skew and the design again was going right . Well , where can this fit ? And , with all due respect to them , I didn't want apples on my label and I didn't want wood . I wanted it to feel modern and I didn't want it to be crafty . I wanted it to feel like it could instantly be seen in a bar . And you know , mixing all that together has been two years work and , like you said , picking up a couple weeks ago has just been a thrill .

Speaker 2 18:10

So you've been working on this for for two years , putting all these bits together and all these elements and all these contacts .

2 years in the making

Speaker 2 18:17

I didn't realize you'd been going for that long , before you even get to the stage where you can start to show people it .

Speaker 1 18:23

Oh , totally , and I've been very lucky in my consultancy to kind of work four days a week most of the time , and initially that was the kind of I had some time with my youngest , but also it was always pushing down the kind of river , this idea of , well , what , what could I do with this , this liquid ? And you know , from that concept of I found the , I found the email receipt of buying the domain that time ago , which was that first milestone . And then you know , normally in my roles as a consultant you come into businesses when they have a bit of money because obviously you cost money . So to then go right back to the beginning , going OK , well , how does investment work ? How do you work on the category positioning ? How do you value things ? How do you set up SEIS and EIS , how do you set up an account to understand paying VAT on something and all those learnings . You know they take time to kind of get into the , into the place .

Speaker 1 19:15

The actual development of the liquid took about sort of six weeks remotely , and then that was signed off in November next year , last year , and then and then you go okay , well , can I have some ? Because I have to kind of I nearly said black . You have to kind of convince someone to give you some money to do the other bits . And they were like , yeah , you can have 49 bottles . I was like , how do I ? So then you're on this like ticker table going , don't drink any of that because it might be the bottle that that investor wants .

Speaker 1 19:45

And from that point we then get to the point where you have the funds to do it . But then again scheduling when things happen , because cider makers are very busy , and you go . It's 30,000 bottles , which is a lot to me , but you know I'm only a little tiny fish in the world , so it definitely takes time . But again , it's meant that we've been able to be quite thoughtful , but the labels only arrived on the Thursday night before we printed on the Friday . So you do , you can say you do all your homework , but like everyone , it's always a bit touch and go oh , that must have been a bit of a bum squeaky moment .

Speaker 2 20:22

I need these like now . Where are they ?

Speaker 1 20:25

yeah , and you know , like I've worked on projects of like the , the cross it bottle , I worked on the redevelopment of that and those kind of bits . But you don't , you don't remember getting an email from your printer going hey , qc , have pulled 6 000 labels because it weren't quite right , so we'll reimburse you . And I'm like that's a fifth of my stock . So then you know from experience you have built in a little bit of fat in the timeline to go can you print them again . But um , even on the day , you know and them saying , look , between three and seven percent over and under fill will be a loss of liquid , I'm like I don't know that .

Speaker 2 21:01

Luckily I didn't have a big over under fill , but all these fun little bits are , uh , definitely gray hairs to treasure going forward I think it's brilliant that you've shared so much , john , because a lot of people don't understand what goes into becoming a producer in this space , particularly as you've got a lot of brands emerging . Now . We know that Lower Nor is growing , that the amount of brands that are coming to market are growing , but sadly , the amount that are leaving is also , you know , significant as well , and I think that most people consumers and budding producers alike don't necessarily understand how many different elements go into producing something that people can enjoy , that's low and no , or whatever it is that you're looking for . It's not just a case of oh , I want to make one , I'm going to mix this and this and send it is that you're looking for . It's not just a case of oh , I want to make one , I'm going to mix this and this and send it into the bottling shop , and there you go .

Speaker 2 21:58

You know we're talking about two years of of research , of development , of of networking , of you know saying do you want to give me some money so I can make this great drink and then , hopefully , we'll sell it to some people ? Um , so thank you for being quite so candid about what you've gone through . Um , would you do it again ?

Taking a chance on non-alc cider

Speaker 1 22:20

yeah , totally like where's the ? Where's the fun ? I think I look at chance in two , in two brands and there's kind of the the chance brand of of the liquid for consumers and being refreshingly present and talking about taking chances and being a side for everyone for all occasions is really , really passionate to us . But then there is this other brand which is and it's more of the founder chance , of your mate down the pub or the coffee shop who has an idea , but they never take that chance as an idea . But they never take that chance .

Speaker 1 22:54

And a lot of the content that we put out through our social media , um , from the institute , the social element , doesn't really talk about the founder , but on LinkedIn and my TikTok is very much about going like , here's the story of of how you do it , and I don't want to be all like , oh , if only one person tries as well , but it'd be lovely to think that there are people out there with those ideas who can have a look at the content and go , oh , lovely to think that there are people out there with those ideas who can have a look at the content and go , oh well , that's interesting . I didn't think that Because , like you said , there are some books out there but there's no manual . And there's definitely no manual when you're working in innovation and a new space of category growth , because I'm not able to look over the shoulder of the other guy or girl who launched a non-upsider because there's not many of us out there that are doing it . So I definitely think it's it's good to be kind of open about it and and I think , even though the the content through , uh , the category piece and the customer pieces is kind of selling me as an expert and someone who could help you grow your category , I think definitely consumers more and more now love it .

Speaker 1 23:50

We've all seen the I don't use the word celebrity , but we even in our category there's lots of founders who are very prevalent for wonderful reasons and I think that's even an extra level of excitement in no and low because they are so tangible . Some of these people we all know that the big boys and girls of you know , uh , abi and morrison cause , and you know they're never going to tell you who that person is because there are hundreds of people . But yeah , when it's just that one person , I think it's really interesting and you know , pieces of content like this are just brilliant because it gets us out there to kind of tell those stories and maybe there is that boy or girl he's going . Maybe I am going to make that . You know , non-alcoholic cognac or whatever it is .

Speaker 2 24:36

Oh interesting Um , whatever it is , oh interesting um . Can I bend

Is low/no still growing?

Speaker 2 24:38

your ear about some of your uh industry insight and perspective then please ? Because you know low and no is growing . Um , full strength alcohol is stagnating . Um , even the soft drink market is stagnating against this emerging market , which is growing , admittedly from a very small base . So the 47% growth that Lowenau has as an industry last year seems amazing , but it's still only 3% of total beverage alcohol in the UK . You've been around for a while in a very young , youthful kind of way . What have you seen and what do you see as emerging in the industry now ? Because , from your experience , having seen low and low and light being an interesting idea that people kind of glance at to now being a serious consideration , do you think that we're still going to keep seeing this growth ? What do you think is happening with the industry ?

Speaker 1 25:40

Look , I'm very passionate in a statement that it's going to be cooler to buy a non-alcoholic drink sooner rather than later . And that's not demonising alcohol , that's nothing like that . It's just about this whole movement is so empowering and so inclusive to occasions and consumers . And I think with any emerging category , there's three really important things there's the brands , there's the quality and there's the customer engagement . And when brands get better , the content's better . The consumers are engaged . They want to be seen with it .

Speaker 1 26:13

You know , if I was to tell you that someone was going to be rocking a Guinness zero zero T-shirt bought off the Internet , you would have laughed at me 10 years ago . But now you know , I used to sell Calibre for Diageo back in the day . That wasn't a very cool brand . So the quality and the engagement of brands is growing . In non-alcoholic , you then have this most important thing quality of brands is growing in non-alcohol , you then have this most important thing quality . So as people get better , as punk af came out , as guinness zero zero came out , as big drop came out , as lucky saint came out , everyone was like , well , we're gonna have to make a better drink , and that's from the producers right through to the marketeers , right through to the brewers . So the level goes up . So you've got the brand awareness and the kind of integrity of brand equity of it . It's a bit of a wanky sentence , but you know . I mean you've then got the quality of the liquid . And then the final one is the customer engagement . So do Tesco put them on the shelf ? Do bars put them on the menus ? Do pub groups put it on tap ? Now , when all three of those start firing , whatever the category , I saw it in craft beer , I saw it in flavored cider , I've seen it in all of the strands of non-Arkham working . That's where it starts to grow .

Speaker 1 27:20

And the other exciting thing is that and it's a nightmare when you speak to agencies and they say who's your consumer ? And you go everyone , because it is a younger demographic which we know are coming through Like our kids we talked about , before their ages statistically they'll never drink . So they're coming through with this kind of like disassociation of what alcohol is . They'll be wanting to drink great tasting premium liquids in communal experiences , but they probably won't be like beers , like when I was growing up . There'll be more kombuchas on on out . So you've got this exciting one half of the bowtie , to use the adjoining terminology of the , the younger consumer , coming through .

Speaker 1 27:58

And then you have people in my era who are going okay , well , I've got kids , I need to be up in the morning , I want to be a bit fresher , I'm mindful about what I'm putting in my body and the whole piece that I think the phrase is zebraing of people top and tailing on evenings so I think it's around 90 of consumption occasions with non-alcohol include alcohol which when you kind of suss that out in your brain , it means that people are using it to moderate . So I think when you have a , an occasion which has got top of funnel , new people coming in which is the big problem for whiskey for years right , all the whiskey drinkers are getting too old , so we're filling this bit you've then got this really exciting kind of movement in this era of people coming through and it meeting in the middle . There's growth there . You then have all of this quality levels going up , customers engaging with more space , brands getting better at their job all of that kind of stuff just pushes it and pushing it . And , to your point , you know the massive misconception about non-alcohol and low-alcohol is that it's about replacing alcohol , like it does replace alcohol occasions , but it also premiumizes water .

Speaker 1 29:00

The fact that we go into pubs nowadays and pay for cordial in water is like mind blowing . You know , have we not moved on to create something that tastes good , that isn't a fruit shoot or juice ? Back to Br brick whoever in that . Or you know , coca-cola I work with a fantastic kombucha brand recently called hip hop , and again , like they're seeing people moving away from sweet drinks and looking for more functional elements and maybe they're not kombucha fans , but they do buy into the taste profile . So the fact that non-alcoholic across all those points is getting better . You've then got alcohol occasions , which are being replaced and improved and elongated . You've got venues that can serve for longer . You've got these huge events like sporting events and musical events and festivals that buy into this whole thing , and then you can serve one of these drinks from dusk till dawn . You know it's fascinating and I think that's why I cannot see this being anything other than the most important change to the drinks landscape in my lifetime , for sure .

Speaker 2 30:08

I'm really glad you said that the way you said that , because there are still , as to be expected , a lot of naysayers out there . I

The death of alcohol?

Speaker 2 30:19

recently published actually this morning a rebuttal to an article that I had read , which was almost delighting in the closure of the Love From Alcohol-Free Pop-Up .

Speaker 1 30:30

Bar that was in Manchester . That was a really good headline , yeah , amazing .

Speaker 2 30:33

Now the article apart from all the misinformation that it had in it , you know , not recognising , delighting that Love From had closed , when actually it was a pop-up and it was never meant to be there forever , you know , had said that we are . Alcohol has faced greater adversaries than the sober curious movement and I thought since when were we adversaries than the sober curious movement ? And I thought , since when were we adversaries ? Why ? Where is this , this competitiveness , come from ? That ? That big alcohol consumers think that we're trying to take that away from them , because I've not spoken to anybody on this podcast or anywhere else that said you know , my drink's going to be the death of alcohol . It's just not the way that the industry is moving and of course , there are some people that would rather that alcohol didn't exist , but there are also some people out there that would rather Marmite didn't exist .

Speaker 2 31:26

Me for one . You know it's not about an us and them , it's about providing choice and , as you said earlier on , it's not that we're removing the alcohol , it's that we're giving more options to have alongside it , so that our bars and our restaurants , who are all struggling , whether they serve alcohol , free drinks or full alcohol , they're all struggling , can give more off , more options to people that come in , so that more people can come in and spend more money . So we don't have what was it ? 250 pubs closing in the first quarter of the year it's .

Speaker 1 32:04

It's fascinating , and I'm sure these keyboard warriors you know still use a nokia and are scared of the internet . It's just , you know , the inclusivity which non-alcohol offers on its own should be a reason why no one should ever kind of , you know , bad mouth it . You know what ? What Carl did in Manchester and I was very lucky to kind of meet him quite early on in it was was create a space which gave people a place to go that maybe didn't have that space to go . But equally , what we know from non-alcohol drinkers a bit like the old days when I worked at Guinness , is a Guinness consumer . They'll decide where the pub is because they're the Guinness consumer . They're the annoying one in the group and they'll bring their friends .

Speaker 1 32:45

And in the same way , when veganism and vegetarianism came more prevalent your vegan or vegetarian friend , they would choose the restaurant like it's . You've got to not overly cater for them , but they will be the one who might not have the biggest opportunity . Non-alcohol is doing that as well . So you might get that driver , pregnant person , all the old cliches , or that person who wants to have an occasion with non-alcohol . But the fact that they're bringing their three or four friends is fascinating and that is only good for our struggling on premise , it's only good for our festivals , it's only good for our hotels and driving people in to have more community moments . And I guess what we talk about is being present . You know , being able to sit down and put your phone away and chat with someone . You know more , more keys to unlock those moments . It's got to be a good thing .

Speaker 2 33:33

Absolutely , absolutely . Talk to me a little bit more about cider , because in the low no space there's a lot

Where are all the alcohol-free ciders?

Speaker 2 33:42

of lager , there's a lot of IPA , there's a lot of spirits . Wine is is trying its best to , you know , take its corner . There aren't many low no ciders out there . Yeah .

Speaker 1 33:55

Why is that ? And welcome to my dark thoughts every night of whether I'm missing something . But yeah , I guess the two big reasons for that , from my understanding , is one the apathy and the kind of slowness of the bigger brands to get into this space has been quite evident . It's also a little bit my fault , like I developed non-alc record league and the this space has been quite evident . It's also a little bit my fault , like I developed non-alcoholic record league and the easy option has been to put in a non-alcoholic flavoured cider when , if you think about cider roughly is 20 , 30% flavour and the rest is apple . It would be like launching with , you know , a sour beer and not launching lager , like this whole occasion has kind of been missed in the Apple space . So we have the situation where the the opportunity for the bigger boys and girls to get there only really thatches have done it . I've not seen anything from strong bow . You know people like brothers and some of the other brands I've spoke to on and off the record . They're like , oh , we're doing it next year and that's great , but the opportunity for here is me .

Speaker 1 35:04

The other part is , as I said , that kind of cottage industry . I'm going to ragtag make it myself kind of space which other categories are able to do maybe not wine , but gins and vodkas and even whiskeys and beers Cider you need the apples and being able to get access to the amazing producers and the juice that they create means that there's not that many sort of partners out there . Initially my thought was to work with an amazing cider maker and we went down to Hertfordshire and we went in the press and we spoke to a lot of them , but there just wasn't the kind of intent and there wasn't the kind of intent and there wasn't the kind of infrastructure for those smaller producers to make a liquid at that stage , because to de-alkalise is a very expensive process , or to take an element of your cider rum which is obviously quite quick , and then change it wasn't quite there . So there is an opportunity which I've found , but I've also been very lucky and I think you make your own luck to meet aston manor , who produced my side of me , and because their world is they work with a lot of the the supermarkets I'm sure they don't mind me saying this and they produce a lot of their white labels . They have the kind of um , the kind of space to kind of do these smaller passion projects and help me out .

Speaker 1 36:20

Now , two and a half thousand cases and 30 000 bottles is not a passion project to me , like it's my life . But yeah , that's why I believe there's just been this kind of lag . And you're totally right , it's hugely underrepresented the cider market for non-alc , and you can see that if you go into club soda or if you're going to tesco's or you're going to a weather spoons , I often and have done for last year asked do you have any non-outsiders ? And they say no , and we all know that there's plenty of people drinking cider in there . So those cider drinkers are going hang a minute like where's my great liquid , and that's , I guess , where we've landed today yeah , I think it is .

Speaker 2 36:57

You know , when you , when I heard that you were launching this , I was very glad . I've always enjoyed a cider . I've tried a few non-aciders in the space and there are some nice ones out there and , as with any category , there are some good and some not so good . But it really got me to thinking the fact that we talk a lot about wine . There's a lot of talk about , you know , low-no wines needing to improve and their needing to to step up and the producers and what they're doing , but there's just not that talk about cider and I think that it's something that we need to bring more to the fore , because cider is particularly the season that we're in now , right . So , yes , we're coming towards the end of summer , but we still got a bit going .

Speaker 2 37:34

It's very much that spring , that summertime it's part of the british way of drinking is to have your pint of cider , whether you're having it with , as you say , you know , pint with ice , or even , as you're coming of age drink . You know your snakebite and blacks . You know cider has been around as part of our drinking style for so long . So I wonder if this is you . You know we're looking at the start of this boom . Now , this , this emergence , as you say , you're speaking to brands who are saying that you know we're going to jump on it next year . But I find that a lot as I guess with many industries , a lot of people sort of let's wait and see .

Speaker 1 38:14

Ah , john's bringing one out , let's see how he gets on , and then we're gonna take what he's done well and run with that bit yeah , and you , I think , with any brand I've ever worked with , the allergy is , you know , racehorses have blinkers for a reason , because they just they're not really bothered about the other people in there . So it's always important to be really focused of what you're doing . But it will only help if there are other ciders that come out and cider . You know cider is older than beer .

Speaker 1 38:41

You know cider is the most historic long alcohol drink out there and and for it to come in and for peris and different styles of apples and flavor , to get more um , engaged and and just generally , like you said , um , I mean probably a little bit late to market for a cider coming at the end of the summer , but it is what it is . But you know the fact that it's naturally gluten free , that it's fine for celiacs , the fact that it is made from completely sustainable elements . You know , in terms of how we make and I'm not having a go at other drinks that are out there but apple trees are shook , right , and they take the apples on and then the apples grow back , but all the rest of the year that field has bees and you know all the insects and the actual category of what it's doing is amazing . The people that produce their apples are all British farmers and we know that our farmers have had a pretty tough time . You know , being in that category is not just about the inclusivity of its taste profile , which , you're totally right , everyone kind of likes a cider , apart from my wife , ironically , but that's another story .

Speaker 1 39:48

You know , this is a product which is quintessentially British and quintessentially part of our culture and I really really do see this being a part of the on-premise . I see it being a part of the on-premise , I see it being part of a home occasion . But god , I can't wait until next year when there's people listening . I'm a huge music fan . The thought of people drinking a pint of my cider , watching bands I mean a lot of my favorite bands I've fallen in love with and brands I've fallen in love with at festivals , because it's kind of that moment where you're most susceptible to falling in love with something . So yeah side is brilliant and I think the opportunity for more people to to come in and hopefully , if I've helped move a bit forward , that would be amazing .

Speaker 2 40:25

Yeah , absolutely right . It's that festival feeling , it's that , that , that outdoor space , it's that and it's just . It's also about having something in your hand , whether it's in a , in a bottle or in a glass , that you can sort of go . You know , I feel like I'm part of this festival , I feel like I'm part of this beer garden . I feel like I'm part of this gathering of people because I'm a grown-up and I can have a grown-up drink .

Speaker 2 40:51

You know , we've we've both got young kids , and I remember being a couple years ago , we went on holiday to a center parks and I was asking if they had anything non-alcoholic and the only options that I had were to have like the same juices that my kids were having and my husband's there and he's got , you know , a proper drink , and I'm like , well , I want a proper drink just because there's no booze , and it doesn't mean that I have to have a blooming fruit shoe or whatever else it is that they're having . So I think having more drinks like this that can speak to those occasions is what we need . I think it's what we're all asking for .

Speaker 1 41:32

And you'll know and you'll have seen that there's this huge cross moment of occasion with food and non-alcohol and there's lots of kind of reasons and theories for it . But I personally think you know if I was to go out , if we went out for dinner I know we're both married , but you know we've gone out for dinner and you know we both had appetizers , we both had great mains , we both had great desserts . You've had a glass of wine and I've had insert soft drink . There's no parity in that occasion and we should be letting these occasions , if you are not having alcohol , have the same level of quality in the liquid that you're drinking .

Speaker 1 42:09

And I think that's why we see , you know those early adopters of hotels and and foods chains and you know the Dishooms and the pizza pilgrims and all the guys who've done brilliant stuff with non-al . It's because they desperately wanted to kind of level up that moment . If the food's that good , why would you then have to ? And it seems like we're having a go at fruit shoots . We're not , obviously , but you know what I mean that kind of , I'll just say , a glass of water . It seems , it seems unfair and I think you know that's that's what's exciting me very importantly , I have nothing against fruit shoot .

Speaker 2 42:41

Fruit shoot have done wonders . Sponsors , exactly . Yeah , we're right here . You're in my kids pack lunchbox as we speak . Yeah , so what's the plan going forward ? For for chance then , john , what's ? What's the next stage ? You spent a lot of time creating , developing , getting the drinks off the line

Next steps: football to festivals

Speaker 2 43:03

. You've got the flavor profile that you were hoping to achieve . So what's the next logical step for you in this journey ?

Speaker 1 43:12

oh , I'm very old school as a well kind of it was beaten into me at diageo that brands are built in the on-premise and I do passionately believe that . So the main focus of chances distribution to start with will be in that on-premise space . And again , with my experience through past employers I know that there are loads and loads of venues that are going to be really excited about this style of thing , from your cocktail bars to your gig venues . Again , as a huge fan of music , it's a bit frustrating when you pay 50 quid for a ticket and you stood there with a you know something not as tasty as your friend next to you who might not be drinking or driving or is choosing to drink that night . So massive focus on the right places in the on-premise and that's from london right up to around where I live in in the north , near Chester , right up to Scotland , right down to Cornwall , all of those occasions . We'll do a little bit of testing with some event stuff because we desperately believe there is a big opportunity for that kind of festival event music space and there's already football clubs that have been in touch with me locally that are really excited about it because they're seeing big sales in their beers . But again , you know , you're that football consumer who might want to drink on that day . Big opportunities there . And then there is an aspiration for us to hopefully partner with one of the grocers to kind of then have that next stage and whether that would be in a bottle or it might be in a different pack format , and that's that's very much in the eyes .

Speaker 1 44:38

I'm also super passionate . You know , my local shop is a co-op , shout out to co-op . But I'm going into co-op and I'm seeing a growing no and low space . That's fantastic . And again I'm like you got , I know you've got 17 skews of cider but you don't have an on outsider . So I think , focus on the on-premise , start to understand what's going on with that um , with the event space . Look for some kind of route to market there , definitely thinking about draft , because obviously that gives us another occasion to kind of go into that space . And then there will be an e-commerce element to it . But you know , with my experience it's quite difficult to produce one SKU and it fit all the needs of a pub and a post and such . So a little bit of that consumer awareness . But 99% of my focus will be on finding great bars , great retailers that want to have a great listing of a bottle of cider on their menus .

Speaker 2 45:31

I'm excited for that . I'm excited for that because you go into pubs and those that do have a decent low , no and light offering , they are always missing a cider , unless it is Thatcher's . That's the only one that I'm seeing out there and , as lovely as it is , a good life is about choices . You know , I don't want to drink the same thing all the time , and to be able to go into a pub and to be able to have a choice of a couple of different lagers , a couple of different spirits and a couple of different non-outsiders would be amazing .

Speaker 2 46:02

And I think from my experience I have a hospitality bar background you know it's always about you never put one thing on your menu and just leave that on its own . Nothing is in a category of one . You know you need more variety so that people can have an option and go right , go right . Okay , there could be two good things here . Let me try this today and I'll try that one tomorrow , you know . So I'm really excited to be able to start seeing chance in in the , in the pubs , in the beer gardens , you know , and it's not just for summer .

Speaker 1 46:30

Yes , cider is very much a summer uh , summer led style of drink , but I drink ciders all throughout the year , you know so I can definitely see that it's a catalyst for if you are choosing to drink alcohol , to also drive that you know to be two or three non-outsiders is great , but that will only help the other ciders in there . A bigger repertoire , a bigger opportunity to choose . And it all started with me becoming so frustrated that I couldn't have a bottle of cider .

Speaker 1 47:00

I'm just hoping there's plenty more of me out there there are there , absolutely are .

Speaker 2 47:04

Um , john , uh , if people want to go and find out more about your journey , they want to go and support you , they want to get hold of a bottle , they want to be part of this uh experience that you're on . Where do we send them to go and find out more ?

Speaker 1 47:17

so you can get all the pre-sign up stuff . Our website , which is chance cidercom . You can follow us on our socials , which is clean cider . I'm knocking around on LinkedIn in terms of personally and with the brand chance clean cider , and then my TikTok again , which is very small , but that kind of found a journey which I thought would be quite cool . That's chance clean cider as well , on on tiktok , but hopefully you'll see us in pubs along the way absolutely , and look at you being all young and trendy on your tiktok oh , I was just like what's wrong with you ?

Speaker 2 47:52

uh , john , before I let you go , um , I have one last question for you , and it's a question that I ask everybody who comes on the podcast , because this is all

BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 47:59

about spreading the love across Lono Nation . So we've spoken a lot about summertime and we know that summertime comes with barbecues and picnics . Say , you're off to a nice barbecue , you're hanging out with your mate Matt and whoever else and you're not drinking and you're bringing along a couple of Lono or light drinks . What other than the now-produced fabulous-tasting Chance Cider do you like to enjoy in that sort of low-no light space ?

Speaker 1 48:27

Well , do you know what ? There's a wonderful crossover of my love of craft beer and also non-alcoholic , which I think the Cloudwater guys , who are like the best beer makers in the world anyway , have been doing unbelievable beers . And again our mutual friend carl . He did a collab with them . Um , boring af um , which is very tongue-in-cheek to all of his kind of branding . I think it's sold out at the moment , but if I could steal a couple of them off him and take them around , it's just the most phenomenal liquid and I love the way that that also represents what carl was doing working with a manchester brewer , working with a brewer which is notorious for high abv , high , you know , textured um styles of american beer to then go . No , we're gonna . We're gonna go and dominate in that space . So definitely , if you can get a couple of them , highly recommended fantastic , great , great recommendation .

Speaker 2 49:18

John , thank you so much . I've really enjoyed speaking to you and I love , as I said before , that you've been so open about sharing your journey . I do follow you on linkedin and I like that you do that there as well . You know , sharing that you are a real person , you're a father , you're trying to build a business , uh , and sharing the highs and the lows , because it is hard , you know , and it is challenging , but you're doing it anyway and I think that's absolutely fabulous and I'm looking forward to going into many a pub and ordering a bottle of chance . So thank you very much for joining me today brilliant .

Speaker 1 49:52

Thanks so much for your time .