Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

What we wanted to make in our objective was to make something that people that like drinking wine like drinking our product . We call it the non-alcoholic wine for wine drinkers . If you don't like wine , you may not like our product . In fact , you probably won't like our product . Honestly , you know we're not trying to preach , we're not trying to tell people not to drink alcohol . I drink alcohol , everybody in my company drinks alcohol , but there are times and there are places and there are people that can't , and it's about choice and inclusivity .

Speaker 2 1:46

Hi , hi Lono Nation , and thank you for joining me on today's conversation . Today I'm chatting with Mr Gary Reid . Gary is the CEO for Bolle non-alcoholic sparkling wines . Bolle is a range of Italian sparkling wines that use a unique secondary fermentation to bring an authentic flavor profile to your glass . This technique is currently patent pending , so , while he won't be able to give away too many trade secrets , I'm really keen to know as much about this process as he's able to tell me . We'll also have a chat about the brand past , present and future and the journey so far on what's going to be next for the brand . So thank you so much for joining me on this week's conversation , gary . How are you ?

Speaker 1 2:28

Hi , thanks . Thank you , denise , and yeah , I'm doing great . I'm doing great . I'm getting a little bit of a cold , so sorry if my , if my voice sounds a little , a little muggy here , but I think I think we're doing great .

Speaker 2 2:41

That's all right . It's not muggy . We go with husky . You know that sounds sexy and husky right .

Speaker 2 2:47

There you go . Well , thank you so much for joining me today . I'm really excited to have a chat today . Um , I'm really excited to have a chat . Sparkling wines are right at the top of my list of those flavors that I have always enjoyed , uh , when I was drinking alcohol , uh , professionally and , and now less so , and I'm really pleased I've got a couple of bottles behind me for those on the audio . Um , bole's new bottles are absolutely beautiful . They look very elegant , very sophisticated and the kind of bottles that you can open in any adult occasion . I feel like you're having a grown-up drink , which is what we're all looking for , isn't it ? That's what everyone keeps telling me . You want adult drinks for adult drinking occasions . Just because they don't have alcohol doesn't mean that they need to be juvenile .

Speaker 1 3:32

Yeah , absolutely , absolutely .

Speaker 2 3:35

Fantastic . Well , you've done a great job in that . But before we get too far into that side of things , I'd love to know a bit about the journey , and obviously you yourself are the CEO , so you know what was your journey personally that led you to being where you are now . And then if you could also share a little bit about Bollé's journey as well . So start where you'd like to start , gary . How come you're here today ?

Speaker 1 4:00

Yeah , absolutely .

Gary's story

Speaker 1 4:01

Well , let me start , as you said , first with my journey here . So I've been in business for many , many years , as you can probably tell , and you know , I actually moved across to California , lived in California for about 21 , 22 years , got married there , had kids there , got three kids and then moved back to London about five years ago . I've always done tech companies , tech companies . So I've been a founder multiple times and the CEO multiple times of technology companies , run , lead those companies , build them , and if we're successful , then somebody comes along and acquires the company . And a number of years ago I started to get a little . You know , I wanted to find something different to you know to do and so I was just exploring different ideas . And I remember you know it was probably three or four years ago I came across this brand in the UK . It was called Clean Co and it made , I see , non-alcoholic , you know spirit equivalents and I bought some of them . You know I bought them online and I tried them and I was like , hey , these are actually of them . You know I bought them online and I tried them and I was like , hey , these are actually pretty good . You know , I particularly like the rum , because you know the flavor and the rum and Coke , you know , was basically a rum and Coke flavor . And I actually tried to contact the founder of that company but he ignored me , unfortunately company , but he ignored me unfortunately . I think he was the Maiden Chelsea star , right , so he ignored me . But it sort of piqued my interest in this whole kind of non-alcoholic , you know , adult drink , you know space . Then I started to , you know , to try , you know , more and more non-alcohol beers and started to really enjoy them . You know , I remember a friend of mine actually had a medical issue that meant he could , only he had to switch to non-alcohol and so we used to have conversations about it .

Speaker 1 6:06

And then I started to try non-alcohol wines and , you know , I think for me , you know , I was looking to try to get involved in a company . I don't feel I'm the maker , I'm not the winemaker or the beer maker or the drinks maker , you know , I'm more the sort of the outward , you know the sales , the marketing , the building of the business , and so I was trying to find somebody that was a good place to partner with and then I happened to find Molly Complete , by chance . Was it a good place to partner with . And then I happened to find Bolle , complete , by chance . I happened to , you know , find Bolle and Roberto , who is the other founder and the winemaker in the company the smart one , as I like to call them and , you know , the first thing I would always do was to drink the drink , because and you know , because I can't , you know , represent a company whose drink that I don't like , you know personally and I drank his drink . I was like , wow , this is , this is different , this is really really good .

Speaker 1 7:08

So he and I started talking , you know , we we ended up getting together , up getting together and , and , honestly , we were sort of the two halves of the whole , uh , where he , you know , he's brilliant in terms of , uh , you know , making the wine , inventing a whole new process for , uh , for making the wine and creating just a delicious product , um , and you know , but he's not really interested in the sales and the marketing and the other aspects of the business , and that's what I'm interested in .

Speaker 1 7:40

And so , you know , I did a lot of due diligence . Actually , that also included , you know , finding dozens of people that were not related to me , that had no idea what I was doing , and comparing our product against other people's products . To me that had no idea what I was doing , and comparing our product against other people's products . And then eventually I decided to both invest in the business , become the CEO of the business and then go raise some external financing for the business as well , so we could

Roberto's story

Speaker 1 8:09

be off on our journey . So that's me , but I'm the least interesting one , so maybe I can tell you Roberto's story and the Bolli's story .

Speaker 2 8:21

That would be lovely yeah .

Speaker 1 8:24

So Roberto is from a part of Italy , trefuso , which is actually well-known for two things tiramisu and prosecco . So not bad right , it's a great combination Exactly two of my favorite things . And you know he trained as an enologist when he was younger , but also went to university to study chemistry and was a trained chemist and then worked for many , many years in consumer goods companies . So he worked for Lucas A Ribena , lucas A Ribena , he worked for Mars , he worked for Ben Kaiser , and always in R&D department . So developing new product , understanding flavors , bringing new products to market , but never wine , interestingly enough , never wine during this whole journey . But three years ago he had the opportunity to leave one of these companies and I think it was dry January actually where he was trying to find a non-alcoholic wine that he really enjoyed .

Speaker 1 10:03

You know it's Italian , he loves his wine . Couldn't find one and so said okay , I'm a chemist , I'm a neurologist , you know , this is my calling , I need to go solve this problem . So set out had a little bit of money to start with . Set out left his job , left his high paying job , and decided to try to solve this problem , and it took him three years and , like any R&D project right . You have multiple , you know failures along the way , and then you know , eventually he got to the point where you know he poured everything into this , he poured his whole life into this , and eventually he got to the point where he had the product you know that we have today . Um , but they needed a business partner and so that's how the two , two pieces you know , came to together and I mean , I personally I think he's a winemaking genius , I think what he's done is unbelievable and uh , and I find myself very , uh , you very fortunate to , you know , to consider it my partner .

Speaker 2 11:11

That's a great journey from both sides and I love that . It's a case of a coming together of passions from people from very different backgrounds who are coming together and now working as a team with other people to produce something that I guess wasn't really on your radar very much until that moment where you went oh hang on a minute , there's something here , there's something that that people want and that we can make you know great quality version of to serve a purpose serve a purpose .

Speaker 1 11:51

Yeah , absolutely

A more meaningful career

Speaker 1 11:51

, you know . For me , denise , I got to the point in my life and in my career where I wanted to do something that was a little bit more meaningful than tech . You know tech's fine , you know it's great , you know people make , you know make a lot of money and it's great and it's all around us , but you know it doesn't have any meaning , it doesn't give any real positive , and that's what a part of what I was looking for was something where , yes , I could help to build a very successful business , but it was also something that you know gave back and gave some positive back , you know to . You know to the community and to the world .

Speaker 2 12:31

Quite honestly , I love that . I love that Because I think you're right . You know there are lots of things that people can do in there and obviously there's a million different types of careers out there . But there's a difference , isn't there , between just a job that you're doing to go okay , right , come on , let's do this , we're going to make some money . It might that you're doing to go okay , right , come on , let's do this , we're going to make some money . It might be hugely successful , but if you're not getting something inside from it , you know , if you're not really feeling like it's fulfilling you , then when you do find something that fulfills that , it's a whole other world , isn't it ? Because you really feel like you're doing something that's worthwhile .

Speaker 1 13:02

Absolutely , absolutely . And you know , and as my , as my wife tells me , I'm completely obsessed with this . It's not work , it's not a job . I'm doing something that I love , I'm completely passionate about , I think about it all the time . You know we , her and I , will go out to dinner and she'll say , okay , you're not allowed to talk about ballet to dinner . And she'll say , okay , you're not allowed to talk about bole . And you know it becomes all consuming because , again , it's just , you know , it's a passion and it's something that you know , that you know we'll be able to be , you know , very , very proud of .

Speaker 2 13:47

That's wonderful . That's wonderful . Well , tell me about this passion then , in terms of the drinks themselves . So for those who are watching , you can see these beautiful bottles behind me . For those who are listening , behind me I've got the Bollé blush and the white sparkling wines . So can you tell me a little bit about each of these drinks then ? So can you tell me a little bit about each of these drinks ? Then you know how do they

Bolle's drinks

Speaker 2 14:09

taste , what is the experience behind them , and then I'd love to know more about this fermentation .

Speaker 1 14:32

Yeah , yeah , absolutely , and I think you know the interesting thing about Bollé really is how the drinks are made , and I'll certainly talk through that in a second . But today we have two main drinks , both sparkling wine . We have a Blanc de Blanc , a rosé . They are both made with a Chardonnay base , which is about 75% of what's in there , and then we add Silvaina for the Blanc de Blanc , which is another white grape , and then for the rosé , we add Pinot Noir , and that takes place in the secondary fermentation .

Speaker 1 15:10

In terms of the flavors , what we wanted to do was we wanted to make sure that this was not sweet . I think you find a lot of non-alcoholic wines are quite sweet , and that's not what we wanted to make . What we wanted to make in our objective was to make something that people that like drinking wine

Made for wine drinkers

Speaker 1 15:32

like drinking our product . All right , so we call it the non-alcoholic wine for wine drinkers . And you know , maybe , if you , if you don't like wine , you may not like our product . In fact , you probably won't like our product , honestly , because it just does . You know taste . You know taste like wine . You may not like our product . In fact , you probably won't like our product , honestly , because it just does . You know taste , uh , you know tastes like wine .

Speaker 1 15:53

Um , the blanc de blanc , it's a um , you know you . You first get it with the uh , with the , with the bouquet . You get the , the aromas of sort of apple and , uh , and pear , um , and you know , you get that through in the flavor profile as well , a little bit of , you know a little bit of citrus there . You know some toasted notes as well and you know what's interesting again , you know , for non-alcoholic wine , is that it really does have a finish . So it will stay in your mouth . It has a length and it has a finish .

Speaker 1 16:28

And this is all going back to the way in which we make the wine . So you know that's what enables us to create those . You know that finish and that real kind of wine feel , if you like , that mouthfeel that you get with wine . The rosé made in a very similar way , you know , but a slight different flavor profile , a little bit more kind of fruit forward , you know flavor profile . So a little bit more strawberry , red berries , you know black currants , a little bit of violet , you know a little hint of fresh herbs , but again a rich finish . I was actually with an owner of a series of wine bars in London the other day and you know we were tasting the rosé against the rosé Prosecco and he was showing me how the finish on our wine was actually so much , you know , so much , you know , richer than the Prosecco , and how it stayed in the flavors , kind of stayed in the mouth longer . So yeah , so that's the two products that we have today , the two products that we've released .

Speaker 2 17:46

And that's really important , isn't it that finish that length in non-alcoholic wine , because it's you're in a tough category

Expectations of non-alc wine

Speaker 2 17:53

in this space and people have such high expectations when it comes to their wines .

Speaker 2 18:00

You know they put we've put so much stock in wine and what it does for us and how we enjoy it and the occasions that we have it , and you know it's got to complement the food , it's got to make the meal , it's got to , you know , add to the experience , and so people have a lot of high expectations when it comes to non-alcoholic wine . I find that people just always want to find something that replaces that wine moment but has that wine feel , and so a lot of people are struggling to find those flavors that they want . And I always say you know the non-out wine industry is is very young and there are producers out there who are working day and night to make these drinks better and they're going to be different . They don't have alcohol in them , so they're going to be different , but that experience it sounds like you know that's what you're really trying to recreate for people that feeling , that that taste experience without the alcohol in it yeah , I mean , I'll tell you a story .

Speaker 1 19:00

Uh , you know , around that experience . Um , you know , recently I I drove down to the south of france and door to door it's a 15 hour drive and because I'm a little bit of an idiot , sometimes I decide to do it in a single day , and I was getting close to my destination and I ended up spending two hours in a traffic jam , which is not what you want to do . Ouch , anyway , I arrived at my destination and you know , you know what it's like . You know you're a little bit stressed and I wanted nothing more than a glass of wine . That's all I wanted was a glass of wine . I was just like I just want to sit down and drink a glass of wine .

Speaker 1 19:44

And I actually had some bole with me and I said , you know what I'm going to try , whether bole does the same thing for me . You know , is it going to ? You know , is it going to relax me ? And you know , I ended up sitting there , I drank two glasses of it and it worked . It was unbelievable . I didn't need the alcohol to , and it was not the alcohol that was making me relaxed , it was that wine experience . And you know , we've seen it with many , many people . You know , one of the people doing our tasting , you know , was a gentleman and his wife tasted it as well and she drank two glasses and she sent me a WhatsApp message . She said I feel buzzed after two glasses and you know , because it was that experience was telling your brain . You know that that's how you should feel and that's what we're trying to create . We're trying to allow people to have the wine experience , but to give them the benefit of having the wine experience without the alcohol .

Speaker 2 20:55

And I love that story because it exemplifies what a lot of people in this space are trying to encourage others to recognize

Replacing the ritual

Speaker 2 21:01

, which is that , when it comes to low no and light drinks , it's not about removing alcohol , it's about replacing the ritual with something else . And it's just that , as you said , you know you were really stressed you just want to sit down and have a glass of wine , or whether it's a long day after work or the kids are just driving you crazy as mine were this morning on the way to school you know you just want to have that wine moment , you want that ritual , but without the alcohol . And so many people and this is why I love low no drinks , you know , because so many people have said that now that they've got something that they can use in place to still have that ritual , they don't miss the alcohol because it was the moment that was important .

Speaker 1 21:44

Yeah , absolutely , and so we were at the Oxford Wine Festival this

Mixed reactions

Speaker 1 21:54

last weekend , and so it was a show attended by about 2,000 people , obviously all wine drinkers . There were about 50 different , you know , tabletops . Forty-nine of them were alcoholic wine , and then there was one .

Speaker 1 22:08

Just you , oh gosh , just us . And you know it was almost like , you know , daniel went to the Den of Lions , right . But honestly , that's how we want to be judged , right , we want to be judged as a wine , we want to be a serious wine and we will continue to improve the product as we go as well . And so , you know , we need to do competitions that we're entering . We just won , you know , the Blanc de Blanc won a gold medal . The Rosé won a platinum medal at International Wine and Spirits Competition in San Diego two weekends ago . Thank you , you know , we got the . You know the best , you know best non-alcoholic in the show . But again , it's a wine show judged by sommeliers , and that's what we want , because , you know , for us that's the standard that we need to aspire to and that we need to judge ourselves against what was really interesting at the Oxford Wine Festival . So there was a percentage of the people that clearly sought us out . They came over to our table looking for a good non-alcoholic wine . Can you , you know , can we taste ? Probably about 10% of people . Not that many , you know , but about 10% of people . Then there was another big percentage of people that we had to pull them over to the table right because you know we had a . Pull them over to the table right because you know we had a big sign up saying , you know , non-alcoholic wine , um , and they take a look at the sign and you start walking the other way , but we were like , no , no , come on over . Come over because they had to pay , right , they had to pay a pound for a sample at this , uh , at this show , um , and they would come over and we would give them a taste . Half the time I'd have to say , look , if you don't like it , we're not charging you . Simple as that . Everybody loved it , right , everybody , you know , loved it .

Speaker 1 24:12

There was another percentage of people that didn't read the sign and so they just came over because it looks like champagne , right , they just came over , they thought they would get it . Oh , great , you know , we get a champagne tasting for just a pound , you know . They thought , oh , that's excellent , and we let them taste it and we asked them what they thought and then we told them afterwards it was not alcoholic , blew them away , you know , they did not know and they did not understand . And then , unfortunately , there was a smaller percentage of people that were just , I guess , bigoted Would that be the right word to use ? That would just die . You know , it's all for .

Speaker 1 24:50

You know , there's no way I'm going to drink that . Like you know , non-alcoholic wine is just wrong . And I remember I had this conversation with one gentleman who was actually being quite rude . He was with his wife and two friends , right , they all loved it . And as soon as he found out it was non-alcohol , he was like no , it's just wrong . That's what he kept saying to me . It's just wrong . He said I might like the flavor , but it's just wrong .

Speaker 1 25:16

And I was like well , what's wrong with it ? You know ? You know , tell me . Well , I want to go down the pub with my mates and if I want to have a drink , I want to feel a bit of a buzz by that . I'm like , okay , and no one's saying you can't do that . I just like , you know , yeah , well , you know , why would you do this ? Then I said , well , what if one of your mates got a medical issue that meant they couldn't drink alcohol ? You know , what would you have them do ? Do you want them to sit at home and not join you at the pub , or would you rather they just sit there and drink water or coke , or maybe they can sit there and have a non-alcoholic beer if you're all drinking beer , or they can have a non-alcoholic wine , and they can actually still feel like you know they're part of your .

Speaker 1 25:56

You know your , your social , you know circle . And the guy , completely , you know , he actually I saw it in his face , he thought about it and he completely changed and then he was like , oh , yeah , there is yeah . And I was like oh , and then there's people that are driving , there's ladies that you know that are pregnant . There's all sorts of reasons . You know , some people just don't want alcohol . You know there's some people just don't don't want alcohol . Uh , you know to all , my daughter , she's 19 , she doesn't drink alcohol . She'll have like one glass at the beginning of the evening but she still goes to clubs . She's at university , she still goes to clubs . She's still out till three or four o'clock in the morning dancing away and uh , you know , it's just you've got to get your mind . Uh , you know around that you've got to , you know . And those people that look , you know if that's the way they want to be , that's the way they want to be . But if you explain it to them , you know a lot of them do come around .

Speaker 2 26:48

I always find it quite amusing when people get so hit up like that

Why low/no exists

Speaker 2 26:54

chap . You know what's the point . You know why would you do this ? It's as if they feel attacked somehow , and I really .

Speaker 2 27:03

One of the reasons why I don't you know , I don't demonize alcohol is because I want to open this up to people to realize that this is not this category , is not about saying don't drink alcohol , it's bad , you're a bad person for still enjoying a drink . It's about saying there are millions of people out there who want a choice and we just want to give them an option . And , like you said , you know , maybe somebody's pregnant , maybe somebody's driving , maybe they got a big meeting in the morning , maybe they're already popping out for a bit and they got to go home and put the kids to bed and they don't want to do that with booze . You know , there could be a myriad of reasons and , quite frankly , it doesn't matter what those reasons are .

Speaker 2 27:45

It's just about giving people an opportunity to have something and still be able to join in with their mates , and I love that you said that to this chap . You know , would you rather your friend stayed at home and not see you because medically perhaps he can't drink , or would you rather that he had options , everything from your wonderful wines to maybe , if he wanted , a beer or a spirit ? You know that there's enough choice out there so that people can still join in , absolutely , you know . And just for people to understand that this is the low known light category is not about taking something away , it's not about judging you , it's not about saying don't drink . It's just about saying here are some choices for everybody so we can all enjoy the pub together it's exactly right .

Speaker 1 28:32

It's exactly right . And you know what one of our uh , you know one of our ownree partners . It's , you know , the Bar de Champagne in Covent Garden . And you know , when I first started talking to them , they didn't have any non-alcoholic wine , and that wasn't a lack of demand from their customers , it was they hadn't found anything that they felt met their standards . They have a sort of master sommelier and it's very important to them the wines that are on their wine list .

Speaker 1 29:05

But when I talked to the general manager there , he said , yeah , we absolutely use business because we get groups of people . They come to the door and it's not that none of the group is drinking alcohol , it's that there's one or two people that are not drinking alcohol . Um , and you know they don't want to come in . And you know , have their mate , you know sit in their drinking water or coke or something they want their mate to just like . If you're going out , you know , for dinner with with somebody that was vegan , right , you wouldn't take them into a restaurant and say , here , here , you know you can eat a plate of chips , because there's actually no vegan options on the menu .

Speaker 1 29:47

And you know . So we see that you know more and more as well , and it is about choice . It's about choice and it's about inclusivity . And then two key words for us at you know the company . You know we're not trying to preach , we're not trying to tell people not to drink alcohol . I drink alcohol . Everybody in my company , you know , drinks alcohol . You know . But there are times and there are places , and you know there are people that can't . And it's about choice and inclusivity . You know there are people that can't , and it's about choice and inclusivity . It's about a personal choice and not being , you know , demonized , you know , maybe that's a little bit stronger word , but not being felt like , you know , ostracized you know , maybe it's a better word you know to use .

Speaker 1 30:35

So yeah , absolutely , I'm with you 100 percent .

Speaker 2 30:39

I love that .

Speaker 2 30:39

I love that you know that you just said there that you yourself and other people in the company you know still consume alcohol , because it just goes to show that this is open to everybody . It's not just a category for the sober , it is a category for people that just want to drink less for a time . Drink less for a time , um . And I also found it interesting that you mentioned , uh , sommeliers and and uh , the bar de champagne and the places like that , because obviously there's a lot of tradition

Wine bars

Speaker 2 31:05

in wine and sparkling wines and champagnes and it's really , um , quite challenging for a lot of the wine producers that I speak to in this industry . You know they find that sommeliers are steeped in tradition and how things should be . We're talking about centuries of making these drinks . How are you finding that when you're having these conversations ? I know you've mentioned a couple of people you've spoken to , but in general , have you noticed that the doors are easier to push open lately as you try to get your product into these places , places that that don't have an offering yet ?

Speaker 1 31:40

yeah , um , again it's . It is a broad mix . Um , I mean , I'll tell you a negative story first . Uh , you know , which is that there's a wine bar , actually not too far along from where I live , um , very kind of high , uh high-end wine bar , and uh , somebody from our company went and they talked to them and the general manager there said , you know , hey , we've borne on alcoholic wine before . Nobody drank it . We lost all the money on it . You know we're not doing that again and you know that's a shame . And actually I'm going to go back and talk to him because I think there's ways in which we can , you know , help him to be successful and honestly , I would offer him the wine on consignment . It's like , look , if you don't sell any of it , then you know we'll take it back . You don't have to pay us , you know , for that , because you know I want to show people this . But that's the negative story and that's really the exception , the vast majority , while sommeliers can be a little bit , you know what , should we say snobbish , can we ?

Speaker 2 32:50

say snobbish , stuck in their ways .

Speaker 1 32:52

Stuck in their ways . There you go , that's a better phrase to use . But they understand , they're starting to understand that they have to move with the times , that that's what their consumers want , that's what their customers , you know , want . And so you know , okay , now we've got to . You know , we've got to do some things around . No low drinks on the menu , not , you know , not just wine , but a complete , you know , selection of uh of drinks on the menu . You know , not just wine , but a complete , you know , selection of drinks on the menu . And so , yeah , we're getting , you know , good feedback . And , as I say , this owner of this wine bar the other day was , I mean , I've got so many stories of people that have tasted our wine and just love and sommeliers , you know , really enjoy it . You know , I can see it in their face . You know when they first put , you know when they smell , you know swill it , you know they taste it . It's kind of funny when you sit there with a tasting right , because there's that moment of silence right while you're waiting .

Speaker 1 34:01

You're waiting for the verdict to uh to come and uh you know , and I still get nervous right , I still get nervous today uh , you know even though I'm super confident and , uh , you know I really haven't had anybody come back and say , um , uh , you know they've come back with uh , you know a lot of different comments , but generally , you know , people really appreciate it and see what we are doing and so , yeah , I would say the times are definitely changing and it's starting to . Non-alcoholic wine is starting to become more and more accepted , absolutely .

Speaker 2 34:35

Fantastic , fantastic . I think that leads us very nicely , then , as we're talking about the flavor , onto how your

Double fermentation technique

Speaker 2 34:42

unique process has lent itself to helping you to create these amazing flavors that everyone from sommeliers to consumers , are really enjoying . So if you could , for me just a brief overview of , I guess , a normal or regular fermentation , and then what it is that you do that's so different , and what result is that producing for you in the bottle ?

Speaker 1 35:06

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . I mean , if I give a sort of brief overview of the market , right , there is wine alternatives , you know whether or not wine , but they're trying to create the you know a wine , like you know drink . So there's lots of those on the market , perfectly good and acceptable drinks . Then there are people that do not ferment the grapes at all and so it's sort of like grape juice and they add other things in again to try to create that alternative to wine . But you know , I mean the definition of wine is fermented grapes or fermented fruit , and so you know again , it's already wine but it's a perfectly fine drink for anybody that enjoys . You know that . And then there are people like ourselves and others , where we actually start from an alcoholic wine and the process is you take the alcoholic wine , in our case a Chardonnay and then you run it through a de-alkalization machine .

Speaker 1 36:15

There's multiple different types of machines available . There's a reverse osmosis , which you know is sort of older technology now and is super bad for the environment because the amount of waste that it uses . There's a machine called a spinning cone . That again is a little bit older technology , but the more modern technology now is something called a vacuum distillation machine . And the vacuum distillation essentially , you know , heats the wine so that the alcohol evaporates , just like a normal distillation process , but it does so in a vacuum to lower the temperature that it needs to heat the wine up . Now that's actually where the problem lies , right ? The problem lies at that point because wine doesn't like heat , and even though you don't have to go as high as normal , wine doesn't like heat , and so the aromas , the structure of the wine gets destroyed , the aromas get lost , the flavor gets lost and what comes out the other end is it's really quite bland . You've lost a lot of that . And we use I believe it's the most advanced machine in the world , but even so , when it comes out the other side , it's of very questionable quality .

Speaker 1 37:46

So what other people do then is that they try to rebuild the flavor profile of the wine . So they might add sugar in , they might add some other flavors in , they might add other pieces in , to try to rebuild that flavor profile of the wine . And that's where we differ . So we take that base Chardonnay that's been de-alkalized , we put it back into the fermentation tank , we add more grape juice . So , for instance , in the case of the Rosé . You know we've got the base Chardonnay . Now we're adding the Pinot Noir , we're adding yeast back in and we're putting it through a whole nother fermentation . So you know , sparkling wine , you know Prosecco , champagne , goes through two fermentations , and so do we .

Speaker 1 38:35

And how can ? The question then is you know how can we do that and not produce alcohol ? And the how can we do that and not produce alcohol ? And the reason we can do that and not produce alcohol is because of the yeast that we use , which we have developed , and we have the exclusive license and patent , you know , for that yeast . So it takes it through the full fermentation , you get all of the flavor profile , you get everything else , but it just produces a trace amount of alcohol , and that is where the brilliance of Roberto comes in .

Speaker 1 39:09

Now there's a lot of other steps into the process , there's a lot of other things that you have to do , but the bottom line is it's pure wine , there's nothing added . It's fermented grapes , you know , we ferment them once . De-alkalize it , ferment them , you know . A second time , put it in the bottle , add a little bit of carbon dioxide just to increase the fizz . There's nothing else added . It's pure wine . It's pure wine .

Speaker 1 39:46

And if you look at the back of a lot of different bottles of alcohol-free wine , you'll see there's all sorts of different ingredients Sparkling water is in there , or added flavors , added sugar . But because this is so pure and so simple , all of that flavor profile , all of the wine profile , all of that mouthfeel , the finish , it's all just created by the fermentation . And so if you think about it I mean I often say the most brilliant ideas sometimes are the simplest , and this is a really simple idea , but it's really , really difficult to be able to do . And I think , as you said before , we do have the patents filed quite some time ago on this . They're winding their way through , they've got patents . They're gears , as you know . They've already had multiple stages of approval and I think we are the only non-alcoholic wine company in the world to do a secondary fermentation on that de-alkalized wine , and that's part of the pattern as well .

Speaker 2 40:56

That's really really interesting . Thank you for sharing that . So , if I'm understanding correctly , then so you , you do it's a normal process of of making wines and then you kind of make the wine again , right ? So after you de-alcoholize it , you're using this special yeast , and this yeast then it's it just doesn't allow as much fermentation as the traditional yeast that you would have used in the first batch . Is that right ?

Speaker 1 41:21

That's right , it doesn't create the alcohol . It goes through the full fermentation process , you know , but it just doesn't create the alcohol and I can't tell you any more about it . And actually I don't even know any more about it , you know , because you know it is like it is our intellectual property , yeah , um , and you know , there's literally one or two people in the world that , uh , that know this , um , and it's uh , you know , because for us , this is um , it enables so much and it will enable so much for the future as well , Because , you know , non-alcoholic wine it's a different product than normal wine , right ? Just like non-alcoholic beer is a different product than normal beer . And so you have to think about the problem differently .

Speaker 1 42:17

And that's where , you know , that's what Roberto did and that's where his sort of background is research and development in these large companies , for , you know , decades , um , uh , where his background as as a chemist , um , and his background in winemaking is sort of a unique set of skills that came together to , uh , you know , to create this , this solution . And I mean he worked on this for three years , you know , on his own , you know , with no money , with not being paid , spending his own money on this , with you know doing all sorts of you know giving up all sorts of things you know personally to solve the problem and you know . But what's come out of it is , again , I think , nothing sort of brilliant and you'll taste the wine and hopefully you will agree with that as well .

Speaker 2 43:13

That's absolutely fascinating , so I would be remiss if I didn't ask then . So you've got the sparkling white and the sparkling rosé

More wines to come

Speaker 2 43:22

. This technique sounds as if it could lend itself to quite a range of wines . Are there any plans , then , to lend that to perhaps making some stills ? And I have to ask on behalf of everyone that keeps asking me about red wine . And I have to ask on behalf of everyone that keeps asking me about red wine what are ? Where do you see Bolle taking this technology in the future ?

Speaker 1 43:48

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . So the answer to that question is yes To all of the , all of the above . We have , actually we've already made some of those . You know not at scale that we're ready to sell , but you know we've . You know we've already made sort of in the lab , so to speak . You know the still white , the Chardonnay I personally haven't tasted it , it's still with your Roberto , and you know a close few people that we use as wine tasters . So we know that we can do that . We know that we can do the still rosé as well . We also have experimented with the red , and we know that we can do the red also .

Speaker 1 44:46

The third member of the team , by the way , that I haven't talked about , is Steve . Steve is based in Napa Valley and is a winemaker and has been a 25-year winemaker focusing primarily on red wines maker , you know , focusing primarily on red wines . So he's done a number of sort of celebrity wines and worked at a number of the other wineries , and so , you know , bringing his expertise to play as well is certainly , you know , super interesting for us . And so , yes , eventually you will see a full range from us . And so , yes , eventually you will see a full range from us .

Speaker 1 45:26

We're also thinking about making a more premium champagne , and again , we can do that because there's secondary fermentation . We can leave the product on lease for , you know , for multiple months or a year , and so you can start to get that more kind of yeasty , brioche type of flavor that you get in a more premium champagne as well . Um and um , yeah , so so we can and we will make a whole range of products . Um , it's been a discussion internally whether we should make them now or wait till later . But you know , just because we've only launched recently and so you know , we've decided no , let's get our customers first , let's get established first with the two products that we've got , and then we will start to , you know , release the additional products .

Speaker 2 46:18

Yeah , excellent , that makes sense , you know . Get it out there . Get it out there , get it tested , get it into people's hands and glasses , get the feedback and and build on that to releasing your next ones , which sound absolutely exciting . So , before we go any further , then , let's let people know where they can go and get hold of your two

Finding Bolle

Speaker 2 46:38

sparklings , and . And also you're doing a special promotion , aren't you ? Because we're recording this today , on the 1st of October , so can you tell people a little bit about that ?

Speaker 1 46:49

Yeah , absolutely so . First of all , you can buy the product on the website . It's bolledrinkscom , so just bolle and drinks . You know bolledrinkscom . And you know we're offering free shipping right now as well , both in the UK and the US . People outside of Europe just send me an email , just info at BolleDrinkscom and we can ship to the rest of Europe . We just don't put it on the website because we don't have a guaranteed shipping like we do in the UK , which is a 24-hour . You know shipping . You know et cetera .

Speaker 1 47:32

And yeah , you know , for Sober October , you know , as you know , sober October came in . You know it was the . You know Macmillan Cancer . You know charity that , you know that initially started it , and so you know we decided that anything on the website , you know , purchased during the month of October will take 10% and we're going to donate that to , you know , to Macmillan . You know I've personally witnessed some of the work that they've done and you know , for people that are in that situation , you know they really just a godsend . You know organization and so you know we're very , very happy to do that and actually , funnily enough , I checked this morning . We got an order at 10 minutes past midnight last night in the UK and of course we hadn't even announced this yet . In fact we've still not put it on social or anything .

Speaker 1 48:30

But I did send the purchaser a nice little personal email to say look , you didn't know that yet , but you're the first person to you know effectively make a you know donation to Macmillan . So we'll do that for the whole of October and hopefully we can raise a good bit of money for that . And again , it's part of the ethos of the company . You don't see us coming out with 10% off vouchers , 20% off vouchers . That's not something that we do . I would much rather take that 10% and give it to charity and give it to , especially with a worthwhile cause like the mainland .

Speaker 2 49:15

Oh , that's lovely . So just to confirm for people , it's bolledrinkscom , that's B-O-L-L-E . Drinkscom . Is that right ? Boledrinkscom , that's B-O-L-E . Drinkscom Is that right ? That's right , absolutely Perfect , perfect . And I'm sure that people can also search that on your socials as well on Instagram and I know that , Gary , you personally are very active on LinkedIn as well , so people want to go and find out more about you .

Speaker 1 49:35

I'll make sure that's in all of the show notes below for everyone as well , yeah , and I tend to use LinkedIn a little bit kind of more like you know , a little bit more casual . You know we try to connect a little bit more with our customers and so maybe we talk about things that you know you wouldn't normally talk about . It's not advertising for us , it's , you know . It's just talking about stuff . You know a hundred things happen every day , you know , at this company . Not all of them good right . You know there's lots of things we struggle with as well , and it's always been an ethos of mine is that you can connect with customers just by being transparent , honest and authentic , you know , with them , and that's what we try to be .

Speaker 2 50:20

I'm 100% with you there . I used to be so terrified of LinkedIn . I always used to think it was just like this . Really , it was a digital online equivalent of the city . You know , I felt it was really corporate and really sort of judgy . But I've actually found that when I'm on it myself , the things that resonate most with people is when I post about . You know , the other day I had to cancel somebody else's recording because my little girl was sick . You know , and it's so nice that you talk about this , you're being open and honest about you're trying to build your business and lots of people come in and say , oh my God , yeah , me too . Oh , it's so hard , isn't it ? And it lets people just see the real side of you , the real person behind all the business stuff .

Speaker 1 51:01

Absolutely , absolutely . And because stuff happens in the drinks business , as I'm rapidly finding out and you know , every day , you know there's things you know kind of going wrong or there's things to figure out . You know , for instance , you know , as we we were , we were due to bottle our wine . This is , uh , you know , a couple of months back now . We were due

Magnum bottling nightmare

Speaker 1 51:25

to bottle the wine and uh , and I persuaded , uh , you know , my partners in the business that we also needed to make some magnums . So I don't know if you can see them behind me yeah I love magnums .

Speaker 1 51:38

I think that they're great . They're great as giveaways . They're great for celebrations .

Speaker 2 51:44

So much fun yes .

Speaker 1 51:45

Yeah , there's so much fun , but you know what , from a winemakers and from a bottling perspective , they are a real pain . They're a real pain because the bottling machines don't handle them Right and so you need to , even though you're doing , you know , 7000 or,000 other bottles you know , you have to do the magnums by hand .

Speaker 1 52:06

So you're literally sticking the label on by hand . You know you're putting the cork in , you're doing everything on those bottles by hand , and so you know that's why most people don't make them . You know it's why most people don't make them until they're at much , much higher kind of level of production . But I wanted to do it because you know , I think that , as I say , they're great , you know , for marketing . They're great to give a good entree customer , for instance one to put on the bar . It's , you know , it's great advertising , I think they're wonderful to put on the bar , it's great advertising , I think they're wonderful . But the provider of the bottles for the Magnums was a day late getting the bottles to us , getting them to the winery . Oh , and we can't go halfway through the bottling and then stop right because you know at that point the wine is being exposed to the oxygen .

Speaker 1 53:01

So then the winery just canceled the bottling on us completely . And then , you know , because they canceled the bottling , but then we had our next batch of wine that needed to go into those tanks and it needed to go in that day , you know , because it couldn't just you know , it couldn't just you know , it couldn't just , you know , sit there and so you know just these kinds of things . It's sort of like a domino effect , right ? You know , one person is one day late with something . That means this gets cancelled , that means that there's a problem with this over there , and you end up with all these problems to solve just because of one seemingly minor , you know , issue . And you know , but sharing that stuff , you know , because that's life , right , life is not perfect , you know , life is what it is . And just sharing that , you know , I just think makes people realize , look , we're all human , you know , and we're all doing these things and we're all struggling with , you know , the same kinds of things in our lives .

Speaker 2 54:03

Yeah , absolutely , absolutely . I think you're right . It humanizes everyone . It makes us all realize that it takes that pressure off to be perfect . When people see brands and people working in companies that they admire going this went really wrong and this is how it was supposed to go , and it working in companies that they admire going this went really wrong and this is how it was supposed to go , and it didn't go that way , everyone else kind of can breathe a sigh of relief and go oh okay , all right , I don't have to be perfect . They're not perfect either . We're all just trying to figure it out as we go along that's right .

Speaker 2 54:32

You know that's right and , as I say , you know about with your kids .

Speaker 1 54:36

It's look , I don't know how to be a parent . I'm just trying to figure it out as I go .

Speaker 2 54:42

I always say , Gary , that to me , parenting is just a series of best guesses . I don't think anybody knows how to figure it out . Don't listen to mum's net .

Speaker 1 54:50

Nobody knows , that's right Exactly Just when you think you've got it figured out . You know your kids will do something and completely bring you right back down to earth again .

Speaker 2 55:00

Exactly , gary . Before I let you go , I've got my last question which , as you'll know , I ask everybody who comes on the show ,

BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 55:09

and obviously we're in middle of autumn now . I'm looking out my window it's raining , so I might need to change the premise of this . But this is my now infamous barbecue question , which is it's a lovely sunny day , use your imagination , please , and uh , you're off to a barbecue , uh , with , uh , with your wife or your friends , and you , for that day , you decided you're not drinking , for whatever reasons , doesn't matter . Um , so the question is other than your amazing , beautiful , stunning , sparkling white and rosé wines ?

Speaker 2 55:43

what other drinks in the low-no or light space do you like to enjoy when you're not drinking alcohol ?

Speaker 1 55:49

Yeah , well , I'll tell you something , right , because I have and you know I used to drink quite a bit have and , uh , you know I used to drink quite a bit um , and I can't remember the last time I drank an alcoholic beer .

Speaker 1 56:06

Um , because , uh , um , you know , and there's two particular beers that that I really like .

Speaker 1 56:10

You know , from a brand perspective , you know , I like lucky saint , um , and I was actually at that pub just last week , uh , you know , meeting a friend , and we both sat there without points of , uh , of lucky saint , and I'm just like this is fabulous , you know , because I was going to a meeting right after that , you know , but you can do that now , you know it actually opens up , or , uh , and I also like , um , I also like the , uh , the beers from Athletic Brewing and you know , the Golden , I like the Golden , but they have so many that I just haven't got anywhere near trying . You know most of them , but if you look in my fridge right now , there's a bunch of different non-alcohol beers in there and there's not a single alcoholic . You know , beer I actually ordered , you know , I actually ordered at Deliveroo last night and they gave me a free Corona Zero with the order , you know , which I sat and drank last night . So yeah , I'd say you know , lucky saying , or athletic brewing .

Speaker 1 57:21

You know , the beers are great and I mean I just I'm just like what's the point ? You know , why would I drink an alcoholic beer anymore ? I , you know , I mean I'm sure I

What's the point?

Speaker 1 57:31

will , I just don't know . You know , I just don't know why .

Speaker 2 57:36

I love that . I love that you say what's the point , because it's kind of like you flipped it on its head . So a lot of people we started talking about that chap who says alcohol-free wine is wrong , what's the point ? And now there's you on the other end saying after all this time and now being able to enjoy alcohol-free beers and go to my meeting afterwards , what's the point in me drinking the alcoholic beer ? But there might be times when you do see a point in it . But I love that it's just so open now absolutely .

Speaker 1 58:08

And somebody said something to me recently , denise , right where they they described bole and they said the great thing about the bole is that you have all of the um , you know flavor profile etc , and the the wine experience , but you also have a benefit of no alcohol . Um , and you know , it was , was sort of subtle . You know what they'd said in a way , but you know , I thought about it . I was like , yes , you know , we're not taking something away , we're actually adding something . Right , so it's not . Oh , is you know , it's a nice tasting wine , oh , but it doesn't have alcohol . You know , oh , it's a nice tasting wine and it doesn't have alcohol . You know , and that wasn't like , it was just , I , just , you know , I just noticed there was a subtle difference .

Speaker 1 59:02

Uh , you know , but I , but I loved it , um , and you know , and of course , the wine is super low calories as well . Right , it's like 15 calories for 100 mil . You know , you can almost have a whole bottle of bole for a glass of champagne , you know . And so , yeah , you know , truly it's . I've had to catch myself multiple times when I've been drinking some in the evening . I'm like , oh , I better stop now . And then I'm like why , why , why it's good , it's healthy for me , it's got no alcohol . I can drink as much as I want , you know , price notwithstanding of course , but you know from a health perspective .

Speaker 2 59:47

You know why ? Not Absolutely , absolutely , gary . I absolutely love that and I think it's a perfect note to end on . Just want to remind everybody that if you want to go and try a bottle of Bolle's Sparkling Rosé or Blanc de Blanc , head on over to bolledrinkscom . That's B-O-L-L-E drinkscom . Gary , thank you so much for joining me today .

Speaker 1 1:00:09

Great . Thank you , Denise . I really , really enjoyed it . Thank you .