Coming up...

Brad Crompton 1:12

We work with Thames Distillers , who are a 16th generation distillery business . We said to them look , how low can we go before we start to lose the full taste experience ? So the warm , the mouthfeel , the bite , everything else which you expect from a full strength gin . And they said 25% . I think other brands in the space have chosen the strength first and then , if they go lower than 25% , they'll have to try and figure out a way to build that alcohol flavour back up , which is quite hard to do because obviously hi , hi , low no nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the low no drinker podcast .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 1:47

today I'm chatting with the lovely brad crompton um , now brad is the founder of session , which is a 25% gin spirit . Now this is the highest ABV we've had on the show , although obviously we've spoken about mid-range drinks before . What I will say to those who are listening , who are very much in the alcohol-free camp , who are not big fans of the mid-range if this isn't the episode for you , that's perfectly okay . But I wanted to get Brad on because , as you know , as I've mentioned before , I'm fascinated with the mid range sector . I think it's an emerging category that is bringing something new , is bringing something different , and I really like to speak to these founders to find out their stories , their journeys , but their philosophies on why they've made the drinks , where these drinks sit in a moderating lifestyle and how we can really get people to understand the benefits of mid-range drinks if it's something that fits into the way that you want to consume alcohol in your life . So I'm very happy to have Brad here today . Thank you for joining me . How are you doing , brad ?

Brad Crompton 2:51

I'm fantastic , thank you , and it's great to be here . I'm a big fan of the podcast and the magazine as well , so I'm looking forward to having a good chat with you .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 2:59

Thank you , thank you , and that reminds me actually I didn't mention in the introduction , because you have a magazine as well , don't you ?

Brad Crompton 3:06

We do . Yeah , it's a kind of a hidden , secret trade magazine really called the Session . So we just kind of focus on very similar to yourself , just calling out great brands and great founders and people doing great work fantastic , fantastic .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 3:19

No , I absolutely love it and my hat's off to you because obviously I understand how much effort and hard work goes into making a magazine . Uh , yes , it's , uh , it's , it's character building , I think that's one way to put it as a as a really polite way to put it . That's not the words that I use it's fucking hard .

Brad Crompton 3:38

It is .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 3:39

No , but yours is great and I will definitely put some links in the show notes for people . I'll talk about it a little bit more a little bit later on , but it's definitely worth checking out . You had a great feature in your last issue about Al Mave , which is the tequila from Lewiswis , hamilton . Um , which is just huge it's , yeah and it's .

Brad Crompton 4:00

Do you know what ? It tastes ? Really really good yeah yeah , really , really good . I was really impressed by it . Um , it's probably one of the best alcohol free liquids I've tried in terms of how close it tastes to the full strength , uh stuff , in terms of not just the taste , but also the , the mouthfeel and the and the heat as well . So , yeah , it's a really great product amazing .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 4:22

Do you know what I actually shame on me . I haven't tried that one yet , uh , but you are , I think , the second or third person that I've spoken to because not many people have tried it that I've spoken to who absolutely raves about it and says it's amazing . So , um , if you are a tequila drinker , then it's definitely one worth checking out , and if almarve are listening and they want to send me a bottle and then put lewis on the show to come and have a chat , uh , that would be amazing yeah , definitely um .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 4:49

So tell me a bit about you , brad . I love to start these um episodes by finding out a bit more about the story , about the person behind the brand , because , yes , the liquids are important and and that's what I'm here to champion but these liquids wouldn't exist without the passion of the people that that make it .

Session's story

Denise Hamilton-Mace 5:07

So start where you're comfortable to start . What was the journey that led you to decide to create Session Spirit ?

Brad Crompton 5:14

Well born 1993 . To be fair , I always have to start this in the same way . So the company , which is actually Spirit of Bermondsey that's the kind of the overhanging company which not many people know about because it's sort of our background licensing company the Session Spirit is our trading name , our brand name , which is obviously what you would hear and what we push . But the company was founded by a good friend of mine called Nick in 2019 . So it's actually Nick who created the liquid the first time and at the time , nick was working in market research and was traveling around Europe so Spain , france , italy , doing a lot of research on the kind of aperitivo moment , the sort of lighter , more enjoyable way of drinking that the Europeans do . Very well , we haven't quite managed to figure out how to do that . In the same way , it was in 2019 and um nick thought okay , why can't we bring this way of drinking back to back to the uk , but maybe adopting our favorite spirits in the same way ? So he did some work on creating um , the first iteration of session spirit , which was launched in November 2019 , like a month before lockdown or as lockdown hit . So all the money went on to the launch , had a few placements , got a bit of press lockdown hit and then we just went on hold and then two years later we kind of revived it like a phoenix from lockdown and then that's when things started to really change . So we rebranded it as session spirit and that's when we uh first launched into imbibe . Where we met , we um got on to a few bigger wholesalers and that sort of thing and it felt like when we launched it in 2019 , it was probably a bit early for the market . I think that was when alcohol-free was really starting to hit the stride . So the conversation around mid-strength wasn't really there . And as the years have gone by , the mid-strength market seems to be a bit more relevant , I suppose .

Brad Crompton 7:42

But I only joined the business in 2021 .

Brad's story

Brad Crompton 7:45

So my background is weird and wonderful . I've been everywhere doing loads of different random things . So I started my career in the music industry and then moved into tech and then sold my soul to the corporate world and went into kind of banking and pensions and investments and that sort of thing . But my passion and my , my skill set has always been around uh branding and conceptualization of of new ideas and new challenges . So I came in to help um with the rebrand initially and trying to figure out a way to route to market and that sort of thing for Spirit of Bermondsey , and then we turned that into Session Spirit . And then here we are two years later , three years later , yeah , yeah , as we are now .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 8:33

Oh , wow , fantastic . So you're absolutely right . That was my mistake . I apologize

Imbibe & the public response

Denise Hamilton-Mace 8:48

everyone , because you're the director , aren't you at Session at Spirits of Burmese , and so you're helping to bring this to market and helping to bring this to people and show the world that this drink exists . Love to bend your ear about that , because imbibe is uh , for I've mentioned it before on the pod , but for those who don't know , it's really an industry , uh , a drinks industry expo , where brands come to show their wares and , uh , buyers , bartenders , restauranteurs , ateliers come and try things with the view to stocking them . That's the official line the other line is .

Brad Crompton 9:20

It's where the bartenders go to get pissed yeah , exactly yeah , and you kind of have to step over sort of drunken bodies as you leave carrying your stuff home .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 9:30

Yeah , so I'd love to know what that was like because , as a um , as a 25 spirit , and we'll get on to obviously sort of why , why you guys settled on 25 and the processes behind that , but really I'd love to know what the response has been like , because you mentioned just a moment ago , um , people weren't necessarily quite ready for mid range a few years ago . Um , have you seen that change ? Because obviously there's more brands like yourself that are coming out now in spirits and in beers . Wines are starting to make that change , partially due to , obviously , the taxation changes , um , but everyone is looking at alcohol now . Everyone is looking at their abvs .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 10:15

People understand the term abv more now than I think they ever have before yeah yeah , so somewhere like imbibe where people are generally just walking around going booze , booze , booze . What kind of responses are you having there , and then from your sort of general public ?

Brad Crompton 10:33

so it's a it's a good question . So we're finding , initially , people go ooh , half strength , ok , I'll maybe try it . What's the point as well ? That's the first initial reaction , because we market ourselves as being half the strength , but you still get the full taste and flavor right of a full-strength product , which people are skeptical about . They kind of want to come over and challenge us and see if it really does tick the boxes , which is quite nice because I mean they come over to try and test it out to see . But they come over maybe with their guard up already trying to find ways to kind of prove us wrong . But we get a lot of great feedback and it's so nice to see that it counts for more when people have actually come over to say , oh , I'll see about that , and then they try it and go actually , yeah , this is really good .

Brad Crompton 11:31

So , yeah , I think this year it might have been different to what it has been in previous years . So this was our first year going . I think it's also the first year that it wasn't free . People had to buy a ticket to go . They didn't have all the big guys there this year either , so there was no Diageo , no Bacardi , who probably have a bit more freedom to hand out a lot more drinks than than other smaller guys can . So it felt a bit more tame than what we were prepared for it to be and we came back with a lot more stock than we thought we would because the footfall was quite low , so there wasn't anyone kind of clambering around us to try and get free drinks that much anyway . But no , I mean , the feedback has been great .

Brad Crompton 12:17

I think you know we , our whole message is around sort of bridging the gap between the all or nothing options , um so , but also the fact that it is lower calorie and it's more sessionable .

Brad Crompton 12:30

So you know , typically drinks are quite strong and the gin is quite a strong potent spirit anyway , quite strong , and the gin is quite a strong potent spirit anyway . So not many people can really enjoy them for a long period of time , um , both for their own desires but also the body's desires to allow you to do that anyway . Um so I think people just look quite , find it quite refreshing that you can kind of have the same experience but also do it in a way which you know it's a bit better for you , it's a bit more flexible around how you want to consume . One thing we do , though , is we challenge people to try a shot of full strength and then a shot of ours and see which one they prefer , and that's the key message is which one do you prefer ? Which one do you think is the full strength gin ? Because I don't know if you've think is the real the full strength gin , because I don't know if you've ever done a shot full strength gin .

Brad Crompton 13:20

Neat , it's not always pleasant , most things to be fair yeah , I can't remember them very well yeah , it's not a pleasant experience , um , but um , yeah , it's more of a case of um . We do have the challenge of it's . Even though it's not full strength , you know , it can still taste better while still giving you everything you need or everything you want from a gin . So , all in all , I'd say the vast majority of people really like it . Others who are diehard if it's not 45% gin , then I don't want it Then they have their own preference too .

Why 25%

Denise Hamilton-Mace 14:04

But yeah , it's been good , okay , so why ? Why 25 percent ? Then what ? What was the reasoning behind settling on that number ? Was it just that it tastes better at that ? That uh , that abv ? Uh ? Is it that you were wanting to get it as high as possible without going over a certain threshold ? Because I know that you know , within your space , you have other brands . You have gone for perhaps the 10 or the 12 and a half and then for , for those you may not know , to be considered a traditional gin you're supposed to be , is it ? 37 and a half percent is the minimum for uh gin . So what was it that you guys went ? Okay , 25 , that's the magic number .

Brad Crompton 14:46

This is my favorite question to be asked because it's a really big part of our message and who we are . So the reason we did 25% is because when we designed the product in the first instance , we wanted to go with taste , texture , tenacity , you know , over anything else . You know if you're a mid-strength spirit , you can . There's leeway in how you drink and how strong it can be and how strong you mix it . So we knew the strength was always going to be a bit flexible anyway , and how people consumed it . So for us taste was important . So we said to our distillery who we work with Thames Distillers , who are a 16th generation distillery business , all in one big family . So they've been doing it for hundreds and hundreds of years . We said to them look , how low can we go before we start to lose the full taste experience ? So the warmth , the mouthfeel , the bite , everything else which you expect from a full strength gin . How low can we go before you start to lose that ? And they said 25% . I think other brands in the space have chosen strength first and then they've chosen their strength for their own reasons and then , if they go lower than 25% , they'll have to try and figure out a way to build that alcohol flavor back up , which is quite hard to do because obviously it's a natural reaction in the mouth . So we said 25% .

Brad Crompton 16:17

We miss out on the tax breaks , unfortunately , I think at the moment , before anything else is released later on in October I think 22% or lower , you benefit from a tax break .

Brad Crompton 16:31

22% or lower , you benefit from a tax break .

Brad Crompton 16:37

So even though we're 3% over , in theory we could drop it by 3% to benefit from the tax breaks , but we won't because we feel that lowering it below that cutoff point , that threshold point , will remove our ability to say we have the full strength experience or full strength um flavor , sorry , rather experience . And we think that if someone bought us at 25 and really enjoyed it because it gave them everything they wanted out of the taste and and flavor , then they'll buy again . But if we sacrifice that um for flavor and taste just to get a pound 50 off a bottle in tax , they might not buy again . It's not doing what it says on the tin . So that's why we did 25% . It's the strength in which you can still retain everything that you'd want from that experience and

Award winning

Brad Crompton 17:28

for that reason , as far as I'm'm aware and I check often to make sure that this statement is still true . I believe we're the only lower AVV spirit to win an award in the full strength category okay which is a huge , huge thing for us fantastic .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 17:48

And which award was that ? The London spirits competition , fantastic , fantastic .

Brad Crompton 17:50

And which award was that ?

Denise Hamilton-Mace 17:51

the london spirits competition fantastic , fantastic , and that's that was up against full strength . Uh , spirits of all types , and they've picked yours out and gone .

Brad Crompton 18:01

This is , this tastes amazing yeah , so you get kind of a grading and awards um for going in , and I think there's about over 2,000 global products entered when we came out with the bronze award obviously being at least 12.5% weaker or lower in strength than the entry points in the full strength market . So , yeah , that for us was a huge testament to the work we did with our distillery to make sure the product um essentially , yet it delivers what what we say it does . So to have that kind of immortalized uh with with an award ceremony was was great that's fantastic .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 18:45

That's fantastic . So let's talk about the flavor then .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 18:47

So I've got a bottle here and I will put up some other pictures as well , for for those watching , um , it is a , uh , sort of a more squat style rounded bottle just to describe for those who are listening rather than than watching . And your , I like your branding . It's very , um , you haven't gone for anything that's too , um , complicated . There's not lots of pictures on there . There's not lots of sort of icons of different things to do with booze , very clear letters . Session spirit .

How does it taste?

Denise Hamilton-Mace 19:17

Talk to me a little bit about the flavor profile , as we've been talking about that , and then we'll talk about the , the name as well , if we can yeah , yeah , cool .

Brad Crompton 19:25

So this one here is our london dry uh . So it's made with London Dry gin with three key botanicals in addition to the juniper , so we have cardamom , coriander and black pepper , so all , I'd say , quite popular or quite standardized botanicals in a London Dry gin . But interestingly , because we've built the product around the Bermondsey area or the Bermondsey history of London , which is where the gin craze first started and inspired by the Shad Thames building , so where all these sort of ingredients which are first introduced from the Eastern world way back when were all kind of stored in those warehouses down the Chateaunes in Bermondsey . So you'll still see things like Cardamom House and Nutmeg House and those sort of things down there . So we've been inspired by that area . So it's very crisp , very dry flavour , but it's also slightly spiced towards the end of the drink and of the of the drink . Um , and a slight citrus in there as well . So it works quite well . Um , the nearest gin I would position it to I never know if I'm saying it correctly is it um , ophir ?

Denise Hamilton-Mace 20:46

yeah .

Brad Crompton 20:47

Yeah , so very , very similar profile to Ophir Gin , just a bit lighter , a little bit smoother as it goes down the throat .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 20:57

That would explain why I like it . Then because I am not to be honest with you , I wasn't a big gin drinker and it's really funny one of the companies I was working for before I started the whole Lono Drinker . I was working for an before I started that the whole low-no drinker . I was working for a , an independent bar group , and one of the venues that we had at one point for several years had london's largest gin selection in any bar . There were over 300 gins oh wow cool yeah it was .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 21:22

It was huge . It was really funny because , uh , it was , it was sort of the sister bar to the one that I was running and then I was doing the events for everything and I used to talk to people about it and I was like I can't stand gin so I had to just make stuff up .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 21:35

But as I was working there , I started trying things and I discovered a couple of gins that I really liked , and there were two that that I still remember today and one was elephant . I really liked that one and the other one was and I remember the bottle as well . It was sort of purple and gold and sort of Indian style decoration on it . It was really beautiful . And then actually when I tasted yours as well , it had that lightness to it . Now obviously it hasn't got the full strength of alcohol , so it's going to taste lighter . But you're right that that because Ophir is not a heavy gin , because you have some gins that just sort of smack you in the face .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 22:41

Yeah , ophir's a lot more subtle , I like to say yes , yeah , more gentle .

Brad Crompton 22:46

I mean that's , that's one thing that we say with ours . Really . It's , um , you still get the , the full botanical experience and the full kind of heat and warmth that you want from a , from a full strength gin , without the punch in the mouth . Um , because I feel like if you , when you drink a gin especially , the first thing that you might taste initially is the alcohol and then you feel the botanicals and then you feel the warmth , um , we , we kind of have the same experience without that initial kind of overly bitterness like that you might not like .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 23:20

Yeah , so , um , I said I mentioned that we'd talk about the name as well yeah , um , yeah because I think that you know

Naming Session

Denise Hamilton-Mace 23:31

within this realm that we're in , because obviously you are one foot in each camp with the full strength alcohol and the lower strength alcohol , and the term session is one that became popularized a few years ago now . It wasn't always around , I don't always remember people talking about , you know , session beers and session ales , and now it's become quite more , a lot more popular . Um , so I'm really interested in your choice with the name and the response that people have had to it . Um , because it isn't a a low alcohol product in terms of the government guidelines of being below 1.2 um , so it is far more something that would be used by people who are still imbibing . Obviously they still like to drink alcohol but might be wanting just a bit less on a particular day for a particular reason . Welcome back everybody .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 24:19

I'm not sure where I'm going to cut that edit , but uh , it's another one of the disasters that happened . I was , I was interviewing uh rob fink from big drop a while ago and I managed to drop one of his cans on the floor and it cracked and then spurted uh chocolate all over me in the carpet halfway through an interview . So yeah , podcaster of the year , but I was asking you about the name and the term Session Spirit and really your choice to go with that name and then how it's been received by people , because I can imagine that you have a lot of comments from both sides of the camps when it comes to your product . So what are people saying to you ?

Brad Crompton 25:03

yeah , well , we , we changed our name because it's very , very difficult to explain what you are in a succinct and kind of marketable way without having to talk for ages . You know , so before we'd say our brand name , then we'd say the product name , and then we'd say the product name and then we'd have to say it's a half-strength gin and then , before you've finished saying that , you're three sentences in . Come on , wait a minute . Tell me quickly . There's so many different rules and regulations and guidelines and brackets or categorizations that people understand differently depending on which market you're in and which country you're in and everything else . We had to try to find a way how do we explain what it is without having to actually explain what it is ? We just took inspiration from the beer market , because that seems to be the only market really which has a wide plethora of different strengths and categories in it already , and people seem to know the concept and understand the concept of session beer , which is just a lighter alternative to what could be a full strength option . Right , so , and we knew that we were already talking about drinking sessionably before we changed the name it's this idea of , um , yeah , just being able to , uh , consume less alcohol within within the same drink that you're drinking .

Brad Crompton 26:38

So it made sense to call ourselves a sessionable spirit or a session spirit , and our aim is to build out the range of different spirits anyway . So we have the gin on our radar is to introduce other variations of spirit . So creating this kind of sessionable range was on our radar . But also working with bars , working with groups and on menus , we try to foresee or almost kind of guesstimate or kind of panel for ourselves what this kind of area is going to be called on a menu . And if menus already have the session beer option , it seems like a natural progression to introduce a session spirit option or a session wine option or whatever it might be . So that's why we chose the name . Really it's more of a case of trying to explain why you drink it and what you drink it for in the name . So it kind of feels a bit more comfortable and relatable to people who see it on a menu or on a bar shelf .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 27:42

Yeah , and how has that been with bars ? Then you know , speaking to bartenders and landlords and proprietors and trying to get your drink

Educating bars & consumers about mid-strength drinks

Denise Hamilton-Mace 27:52

on their shelves , are people understanding what it is ? Are they , are they sort of open to how they can bring this to their customers ? Or are you finding that it's more of an education piece ? Because I'd love to speak more about that education , how we get that knowledge out there .

Brad Crompton 28:09

Oh , it's absolutely an education piece . Yeah , 100 percent . You know , I think the biggest challenge that we have , which is split across both the on trades , the the bartenders and retail and the off-trade , direct to consumers . The on-trade , I have said in the past , there doesn't seem to be a demand for it , which is interesting because it doesn't really exist . It's quite a new space . So if it's not there to be asked for , people won't ask for it . Not there to be asked for , people would ask for it . You know it's like going in , um , you know , 20 years ago , going in and asking for an alcohol-free beer . You know they didn't really exist in the mainstream . But a bartender could be in his rights and say , well , no one's asking for alcohol-free beer , so we don't sell it . If no one knows it exists , then how are you going to ask for it ? So that's a kind of infinite loop we have at the minute , which is interesting , especially when a lot of bars at the moment seem to be tightening up on stock and what they're ordering , so they're kind of focusing on what is selling . And in the consumer space , I'm just focusing on the challenges here . I'll move on to the good stuff , because there is some good stuff .

Brad Crompton 29:23

Consumers . Educating around how to drink more mindfully or more sessionably or in a way that retains flavor is quite difficult as well , because and we've had people in the past say well , why don't I just pour in half a measure into my gin and tonic ? And I mean it makes sense in terms of the ABV perspective , but so does having a shandy or having a wine spritz . It's no longer a beer or a glass of wine anymore . It's a different product . And if you're looking at the ratio of a traditional gin and tonic , it's usually around one part gin to three parts tonic or one part gin to four parts tonic . If you're then pouring in half a measure , that becomes one to six or one to eight the flavor is very , very different . It doesn't taste like a full gin and tea anymore . It will taste like a watered-down gin and tonic , which is one of the problems we're trying to solve .

Brad Crompton 30:22

You know it's it's kind of you want to retain the flavor , not just not just focus on abv . So they're the challenges that we've had in terms of um on trade and off trade um on the other side of that , people really , some people really get it . They understand . You know why , why you would drink it . They understand about retaining the flavor .

Brad Crompton 30:41

It's about giving everyone the full experience , no matter if they want to have full strength , mid-strength or alcohol free right , people ultimately want to enjoy the drink that they're having , and for people who typically are drinkers so I'd say I'm more a target market , those who who traditionally will have an alcoholic drink you might want to drink less or have a bit more of an easier night . Um , they still would like to get as close to what they currently they typically drink . So that's that's very big for us . Um , but interestingly , we did a bit of research on through our website recently ,

Why people are drinking it

Brad Crompton 31:24

which was a survey after you bought the drink and we've asked the question why are you buying this drinks than I would typically enjoy ? Now , okay , to reduce a hangover , to lower calories and for a lighter or smoother taste than a full strength gin . When we did that , what do you think was the the most , the most chosen answer ?

Denise Hamilton-Mace 31:58

oh , that's . That's a a tricky one , because I could see reasons for good reasons for for all of those um would it be to have more drinks than I typically have now ?

Brad Crompton 32:09

yeah , so that's that's what . That's what . Um , so that , and hangovers or no hangovers has the majority right . I typically thought we'd see it because it allows people . I think the calorie option was a big thing for us . With half the calories , I thought that would be a big thing .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 32:26

Um , but also just to consume less alcohol in general , I thought that would be kind of one of the winners , but it was actually to be able to have a bit more than you typically drink in an evening interesting , that's interesting so people are wanting to drink more , they're wanting to have a longer night , they're wanting to have a longer session , but they're not able to commit to that or to keep it going , because they're just not too rat , arsed by you know , halfway through . So that's really interesting ?

Brad Crompton 32:55

yeah , because because gin gins are strong , it can be a very strong spirit . Gin cocktails can be quite strong , you know . So by having that , that strength , you're able to do that and and it makes I mean it just again might be the marketing that we do which draws these people into our website , and that's maybe why that they choose that . Because we focus on , you know , we focus on how you can maintain the evening . You know it , should you wish um this , this might cause friction . That's the next thing I'm going to say .

Brad Crompton 33:25

There's a lot of work around

The antidote to zebra-striping

Brad Crompton 33:26

, um , like zebra striping and book ending , which is a phrase which is gaining more popularity and it's it's more more prevalent in the industry . I personally don't like that phrase . Okay , because I think the only reason that that phrase has been brought into into the public eye because there hasn't really been um many good mid-strength spirits to do that , because I think of it . It's a bit like if you had a boiling hot drink and a freezing cold drink to try to stay warm . You try to drink them separately rather than drinking a nice middle ground warm drink . So , um , I forgot what my point was and I think I spoke too scared of saying something . Uh , no , no , I don't think you should be .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 34:24

So for those who may not have heard these terms before , even though they're very popular now . So zebra striping and bookending were terms that were coined phrases that were coined by Cam when they brought out their report , in conjunction with Lucky Saint , about low and no drinking , and they put names to these things that people have been doing for a while anyway , and actually I used slightly different terminology when I talk about it , but they've described bookending as people that will go out and have an alcohol-free drink at the start of the night and at the end of the night and drink alcohol in between . And they describe zebra striping as people would have an an alcohol full drink and then an alcohol free drink , then an alcohol full than an alcohol free um , which to me sounds like you've got quite a lot to sort of keep track of . Um , but there's there . So , yeah , in terms of whether or not these terms are appropriate to or accurate to what people are doing , I think that people are looking at drinking less . I mean , the numbers speak for themselves .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 35:26

I don't know if we're quite as methodical about it as those terms suggest no , definitely , no , definitely , not yeah I , I , you know I said it jokingly now , but the whole zebra striping thing sounds a bit like you've got to pay attention to what . You know what did . I had a full strength and I've got to have an alcohol free one . I myself , when I've spoken about it , and I've got a quiz that people can go and sort of see what sort of type of low , no and light drinker they are and I use the term blender , a blended drinker , somebody who would have different types of drinks on a night out so they might fancy an alcohol-free drink at some point , or an alcohol for they might walk into the pub and go , oh look , there's my favorite x type of drink and choose that rather than setting out and planning because for me I find it's a slight tangent .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 36:16

But when it comes to looking at people's drinking habits , it's the difference between that sort of active moderation and sort of like I'm not allowed to have a drink monday to thursday . I'm not allowed , I've got to wait till friday or the passive duration , which is I don't actually feel like drinking very much , so I'm only going to have one if it's something I really want to have . Otherwise , I'm quite happy to have x , y and z , and so I can see what you mean in terms of the zebra striping not necessarily being the way that most people would actually go about thinking about how they're going to manage their drinking . And , interestingly enough , I was speaking to I was interviewing Russell Lamb on here a few weeks back , who is the founder of six is a lovely guy , great guy yeah and you were both at the drink it in uh festival which we're speaking about , uh , before we press record and he was saying something very similar as well to you .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 37:11

You know sort of the whole uh . Is zebra striping the way that people are going forward , or is this mid-range actually now coming in to offer a solution as a way to not have to think about which drink did I have last time , what's next on the list ? Or would you then be able to go all right if I had a six percent wine like his , or a 25 percent gin like yours , or a three percent beer like a genius , or small beer or something ? Does that mean that I can just elongate the night without going too far over straight away ?

Brad Crompton 37:45

yeah , it comes down to kind of the reason why I think so . Like you said before , it might just be the fact you don't really fancy drinking that much or at all . You know you might not . You might go out and think you know what , I don't really want to drink alcohol , I'll drink something else . Or it could be the fact that maybe you're watching your fitness , so it's a calorie thing . Then again , it's a different way of changing your habits and drinking . If I was on a fitness regime where I was still drinking alcohol , I wouldn't choose a beer Like a pint of beer . I would choose probably a short , still alcoholic , but it's . It's a calorie difference which then would change my habit . So it could be the fact that maybe it's a weekday and you know you want to keep it pretty fresh and the next morning , or you know you're . So it's not all about sort of alcohol or alcohol free um , it's .

Brad Crompton 38:40

There's a whole kind of other realm of reasons why people would change what they drink , and I think that's really important to understand that too . Uh , before we apply labels to it , it's more around . I think this is why the mid-drink is really important as a category , um , across spirits , beer , wine anything else is . It gives people the freedom and the full range of options to decide how they want to drink , without it having to be a choice between , uh , sort of two ends of the spectrum . And going back to the education piece , because I think we've kind of gone , we've kind of got off on a road little conversation , haven't we ? But I think it stemmed from the education piece , which was something I'm really passionate about , and I um will be talking to cam about this to see how we could introduce

Changing the nation's cocktail menus

Brad Crompton 39:28

, like a trial or a pilot or something um of this nature , which is to turn the cocktail menus into something a bit more visual . So I've kind of said it in the past and I've been on a few panels and I've talked about this kind of tongue-in-cheek kind of being like a cheeky joking about it .

Brad Crompton 39:49

I genuinely think it's something which we should look at , which is introducing a bit of a a chili system which we see on spicy foods . Or you know how strong is it ? It's three or four chilies if it's one chili , if you know it's mild um , we see on most fmcg products which have a differentiator in strength . You will see this kind of symbol approach where hairspray zero to five circles . You know it's three out of five circles filled in it's mid-strength . Um , it won't glue your hair to your face , you know , sort of like , like the five circle thing .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 40:26

Well , you've got the raw . I'm not really big on the whole hairspray thing yeah , but okay , in anything .

Brad Crompton 40:33

I think it's a lot , so I but it'd be really really cool to see a menu which um has everything from alcohol free like 0.00 all the way up to their kind of strongest stuff and everything in between , and showing this kind of like accessible scale , uh , which I've selfishly coined to match our product , but it can be called anything . Um , this strength scale . The people don't have to have to kind of figure out like you know well , how strong is it ? What's the abv , what's ? You know everything around it , because not all cocktails show abv and I think if you sat down to people and said how strong is this martini compared to this , the groney , or this margarita , people won't really know no , and they probably no , and they probably just go off how strong it tastes , right ?

Brad Crompton 41:21

so I think , having a visual scale to show people well , here's if you choose our drink , here's where it sits if you choose our drink and a cocktail mixed with botivo and something else , so here's where it sits , so being able to decide on a visual cue of I'm feeling this sort of strength today , or you know , and it gives people a bit more of an idea around what they're actually drinking in a way that they can understand it quickly , I think that that's could be cool I think there's a lot of work , I agree , to be done around menus and and that communication , uh , to consumers to know what they can have or what their options are , rather , um , to allow them to drink the way that they want to drink .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 42:08

Um , it is a conversation , is it's a topic that's been brought up several times , you know . So do we have abvs on menus ? Do we have something that shows how strong something is ? Do we put it in units ? Because that's what your doctor asked ? So maybe people understand that there's so many different ways and I think , to be honest with you , we've just got to start trying stuff , because I don't know if your way is the best way .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 42:29

I don't know if units is the best way , I don't know what it is , but I do know that we need to do something , because until we start trying to communicate this better to people , we won't know what's going to resonate with them and what they're going to to understand .

Brad Crompton 42:43

Um , because it's I still don't get units . Yeah , I still don't .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 42:47

Really I don't get units , though it's yeah and a lot of a lot of people don't , and you know I've made this point before you know you go to your doctor and the doctor asks how many units do you drink a week ? And people either a lie because they don't want to say too much , or b they genuinely don't know because it's not on anything . I mean there's there's some changes coming in now and a lot more labels are starting to include them . Um , but still as a point of reference , if you ask your average joe or josephina on the street , they're not going to know . You know how many units are in . Like you said , your examples are a , you know , a gin martini versus a mojito , both cocktails , they're both going to have very different alcohol contents .

Brad Crompton 43:28

Yeah , definitely .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 43:29

You know , to be able to have these drinks and I think that to give people the choice , if you can have a menu and it says have a gin martini , and then you can say decide how strong you want that to be , but in a way that's really easy for people so they don't have to give a number . You know they can , like you say , go , you know , I'll have it at the lower end or the higher end , or whatever it is how we get that out there .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 43:55

I guess the other , the other thing for the education piece as well , for the mid-range spirits , um , and and beers and and other things in that mid-range space , is the education to the consumer on , because one of the questions that that I have come to me is like how do I know how many I can have ? You know it's that

Questions about using mid-strength drinks

Denise Hamilton-Mace 44:15

. Can I have you know if I'm having a mid-strength beer or I'm having a mid-strength cocktail , can I drive or can I go to work or can I ? You know this and it's how we get that information out to people as well , because I think that scares a few people when it comes to mid-range .

Brad Crompton 44:32

Yeah , yeah , definitely , I mean it's . I wouldn't even say it's just limited to mid-range either . I think it's . You know it think it depends how it's mixed . In a cocktail too , to your point before , a mojito is a lot of ice , a lot of soda , sugar , everything else , and then one measure of rum , or probably a double measure of rum , compared to a very small drink of a martini , which is quite strong , know so again , um , how it is watered down and how it plays with other ingredients makes the abv lower .

Brad Crompton 45:09

And I think , um , yeah , I fully agree , because it's like when we introduce calories to a menu which was introduced a few years ago , you can only do that because we have a national standard guideline of what calories the average person should intake . Otherwise it's pointless . Um , you need to be able to show here's what this is and here's how it fits into a recommended guidance . Um , that's going to be very , very hard to do , because how do you govern what people should drink it is ? You can't , because some people , everyone is different , everyone has different preferences , everyone's built differently . It doesn't fit into people's lifestyles . Are you doing it with food ? Are you not doing with the food ? What's your blood ? Your blood tolerance to alcohol . So it'd be very , very difficult to give guidance like that to the average person , and I don't think the government would want to , because in a way it seems like you could be advocating for the consumption of alcohol by giving people a guidance which probably isn't right to do .

Brad Crompton 46:19

So , yeah , it's . I mean I I can never turn around and do a marketing campaign , say you can have , uh , if you can have one gin and tonic now , you can have two and still drive with us , you know , because that's so dangerous and , for the same reason , because there's no standardized guidance which would work . So it's all around showcasing where you fit on a menu of other options and allowing people to decide what works for them at that moment in time for their own reasons , for their own appetite to alcohol , and doing so in a way which just positions yourself clearly , I think , in in the market and allow people to make their own decisions . Really , because I think if we go down the route of maybe too much guidance , it's it's going to be very tricky .

Brad Crompton 47:16

Um , and probably not what , not what people want . I think there's a lot of backlash from the calorie thing . Wasn't there for years ago in general , but that's a bit more of a standardised and accepted thing anyway , and there was still backlash . I think if many started to say here's how much you should drink , I don't think it would feel right .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 47:38

And I think the other thing as well is is is bars taking up um systems such as you were suggesting in terms of , uh , like a , a traffic light sort of thing , uh , or a visual sort of signal as to the strength of drinks ? And because it's going to require a , an understanding and a unanimity across the hospitality industry , because it's , it's not going to work if it's only 10 venues because no , exactly , yeah , and I think so laura will be made .

Brad Crompton 48:11

A good point around this was she mentioned this um traffic light system which has

Traffic light system

Brad Crompton 48:15

been brought up in the past , similar to how foods have it in supermarkets , so you can see if they're healthy or not . But it's , it's the , it's kind of the amalgamation of what you're drinking which can make it healthy or unhealthy . So if you had one drink then yes , in theory that could be green , because it's only one drink in isolation and it might be a low calorie , low alcohol option . But if you have 10 of those , then it becomes , it could become red , because then it's 10 times the calories and 10 times the alcohol consumption . But it's impossible to kind of say again how much have you drunk of it ? How does your body intake alcohol , and it's very different for everyone . So , yeah , I think , unless you had some sort of kind of dystopian way of managing alcohol intake or a standardized , government-led process which allows you to scan the drink it has , the ingredients and then you can add it to a calculator for that for that evening , which every bar would have to adhere to .

Brad Crompton 49:23

Um , which takes us into a bit even more of a nanny state , I don't think it's going to work . So I think it just has to be a lot more education inside and outside of venues as well , um around alcohol intake , how it fits into a healthy lifestyle , if it does at all , um the risk of abusing alcohol , what's out there , and then allow people to make their own choices , but do it in a way which is easy to make their own choices . I think that's that's the important part is , you know most bars you go into now you don't know what you're drinking , what , what's in it , how strong it is . You know um and yeah , I don't know if bartenders are willing to open up the doors to to showcasing that . And you know in , in the same way , that a lot of food chains weren't either . So it's .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 50:23

There's so much to be done , isn't there so many ways , ways to go ? I think , as , as I said before , my my , my thought is that we need to start taking some action . It just to help people to be able to start making better , informed choices . I've always said on this podcast this is not about telling people not to drink , it's not about demonizing alcohol . It's about giving people options for those times when they're choosing not to drink or to drink less , and to do that , we just need to give people information and make it , as you said , easy excuse me , easy for people to find and easy for people to understand . Um , whether or not that means we adopt it as as we try and educate people more about abvs , or it's more about units , whether it's what it's , there's just so many different ways that it can go . I think that we really just need to be able to find a way to help people to make the best choices for their , the way they want to live their life so that they can get the most out of it .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 51:23

I'll take it back to session in particular , but along that tangent then . So who is it that that session is for ? Who is it ? You mentioned your marketing before and who you're appealing to . So who is it that is the ideal

Who is a Session drinker?

Denise Hamilton-Mace 51:34

drinker for for a session spirit ?

Brad Crompton 51:38

do you know what ? It's funny , this is probably the the hardest question . I have to answer okay , because no , no , no , it's a good one , because I mean , the thing is like , because we sit in the middle and because we're kind of half strength option , it kind of works for everyone . And this is where we've had a hard time trying to get our messaging right and we have to kind of target different segments of people with different messaging really , because it works for different ways right . So we well , from what what I can say confidently , it's from what we've seen from the feedback , from the survey on our website , when people have bought a product from us , it's for those who enjoy a gin and tonic , who would like to be able to enjoy more than they currently can because they're limited to the strength , the full strength gin . So people who want to be able to drink a bit more sessionably , a bit more freely than they can with us .

Brad Crompton 52:36

It's people as well who might want to reduce their alcohol intake in a more consistent way . So , rather than looking at just drinking less of what they love on an evening out or an evening , in than looking at just drinking less of what they love on an evening out or an evening in , or swapping a full strength for an alcohol free for a full strength and trying to keep on top of that . Um , you know , it allows them to drink a . One drink , their favorite type of drink , gin consistently , knowing that it's a . It's a better for them option that it would be drinking a full strength gin .

Brad Crompton 53:08

Um , or perhaps people who want to maintain their social lifestyle or their social drinking schedule , let's say , but with a lower calorie option , you know if it's in there as well . Or , finally , you know those who just can't drink that much gin because it just blows the head off , but they want a lighter , smoother option . So there's different reasons why people might want to drink . It works well for a midweek gin and tonic to help take the edge off without waking up the next morning with a thick head . So essentially , it's just for those . To try and summarize that , it's for those who just want to have a bit more freedom to enjoy their favourite drinks in a way which fits their lifestyle choices any day of the week .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 54:00

I like that Freedom . That's a lovely approach to it , I think , giving people the freedom of choice to have that adaptability in their drinking schedule , which is another another term you just used that I quite liked . Um , yeah , you mentioned before that you you've got your eye on some other possible uh skews in the range . Is there anything that you can , uh

Increasing the range

Denise Hamilton-Mace 54:21

, you can reveal that might be coming out anytime soon , or are we looking a bit further away ?

Brad Crompton 54:26

so it will probably be next year when we're aiming to do this and we're trying to do this in one go . So the plan is to , rather than sort of slowly bring out a different skew , we want to try and bring them all out together . So the plan is to try and cover as much of a cocktail menu as we can in terms of the base ingredient , which makes it easier for bartenders and bar groups to adopt a sessional option . If they can do so in one go , then it would be to slowly introduce one , two , three products in this mid-range um . So that's the plan really . It's a kind of don't want to give too much away , but kind of uh , you know it's , it's the vodka , the rums , the tequilas .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 55:11

Um , that's a big , that sort of space that's a lot to bring out in , because you know , just thinking of it's usually sort of your five base spirits , isn't it that that covers most of a of a drinks menu or can cover most drinks that people want to ask for . Um , yeah , I can imagine that that's quite uh an undertaking to go from from one to to five or six skews in one jump . But I wonder if it's like when people have kids and they say you know , going from zero kids to one kid is is quite an adjustment , but once you've had the first one you know what to expect . So you just , it's a lot easier .

Brad Crompton 55:48

Yeah , yeah , yeah , pretty much . Yeah , this is going to pile them up . Um , uh , yeah , I mean , look , whether we go , we , whether we actually go and release five at once , it all comes down to essentially the market , um , what we can afford to do , what makes sense , whether it's it's balancing marketing spend over production spend and all that sort of thing . The end goal is to have all the typical ones available , because we know that having one product is limiting . If you're a rum drinker , we're not going to do it for you , but if you have the same concept in a rumer , that we're not going to do it for you . But if you have the same , the same concept in in a rum , then then it could . So it's all about kind of expanding our , our range and our target audience . Really fantastic .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 56:38

So if people want to go and find out a bit more about that , maybe they want to get on your newsletter to to be kept up to date or , of course , they want to get their hands on a bottle of session . Where should , where should , we send them , brad ?

Brad Crompton 56:51

Best place is to go to our website , which is SessionSpiritcom , or you can give the follow on socials at SessionSpirit .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 56:59

Excellent , and I'll make sure that's all in the show notes for everybody . Thank you for coming along . Before I let you go , it's time for my final question , which is my now infamous barbecue question . I appreciate that it is autumn and

The BBQ-Q

Denise Hamilton-Mace 57:12

there is perhaps a hurricane nearby , but I'm going to keep the positivity .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 57:16

I'm going to keep the sunshine in my mind . So it is a lovely sunny day and you're off to a barbecue at a mate's house . Other than a bottle of the fantastic session spirit , be it the gin , or if someone's listening in a few months' time maybe a rum or a whiskey or who knows what other low-no or light drinks do you like to enjoy when you're just chilling out with your friends ?

Brad Crompton 57:45

So there are two products which I would I genuinely really love . So there are two products which I would I genuinely really love . Actually , I'm going to add three , because we talked about Almav this morning earlier on , which did remind me . So if I was to go for an alcohol-free or a low spirit , it would probably be the Almav , almav-a , however you say it , and whip it up to an alcohol , alcohol free sort of margaritas , um . But typically I would go for either a small beer , um , I love , I love that stuff and they're from the same sort of area that we are , um . But what I did try at drinking in festival , which I thought was incredible , was the new wave beers . Uh , so that'd be kind of the . I think I tried the Hazy IPA with the adaptogens built into it , which I really value . I think if you're having an alcohol-free option , adding in other things which could benefit you , I think it's really important . So big shout out to New Wave .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 58:47

Oh , fantastic . So those are . Some people might not have heard of them because they are pretty much brand new , aren't they ? They haven't been around for very long and they've come out with a range of two beers , a lager and a hazy ale , and they're both adaptogenic and nootropic enhanced uh , which I think is the next well , not the next . It is another big wave , isn't it ? In that sort of uh , low , no , and light space . It's as you said , those added benefits , uh , so not only are people sort of drinking less , but they're trying to put more good stuff in which , which can only be a good move . Um , and then the um , this , uh , what was your other one was a small beer yeah yeah , then they .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 59:29

They're great . Um , mid , mid-strength beer range , um , which I think is a fantastic , and they've got about five in their range , haven't they ? Which all sort of like two percent to three and a half percent , that sort of yeah marker . Um , fantastic , and almave once again . Anytime you want to send lewis over to me , I'm more than happy to share a surname . You know it's fine , we're connected there you go .

Denise Hamilton-Mace 59:55

Brad , thank you so much for joining me today . I really appreciated your time and your candid thoughts on the space and how we can help it to grow and to reach more people . So thank you very much .

Brad Crompton 1:00:06

Thank you . Thank you for having me . It's been great .