Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

You know there's some ingredients that you can't get in the UK unless you have a license , unless you're certified like quinine hydrochloride , which goes into the bitter flavor that goes into tonic . It's highly poisonous , but you can get anything you want from Alibaba in China . So I started importing white powder from China . These unmarked blocks of white powder used to come to my house . My wife's like what are you doing ? What is this ? You're going to get us deported . Don't worry , it'll be fine .

Speaker 2 1:37

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Today , I'm excited to introduce to you Mr Avnish Babla , the founder behind Savile Beverage Company . The brand was founded in 2019 to be a sophisticated , adult non-alcoholic beverage for people to enjoy , to and , I quote celebrate the occasions where we can all be together , no matter where you are or what you're drinking . Savile cocktails are classic , chic and convenient , and today I want to know more about the man behind the brand , the story that led him to where he is , and we'll also touch on a few topics that I don't often get to talk about here on the podcast , such as how we can increase diversity for everybody in the low-no space . So grab a drink , settle down and say hello to Avnish . How are you doing today , avnish ?

Speaker 1 2:29

Good Denise , Thanks for having me .

Speaker 2 2:31

Well , thank you for being here . Thank you for being here . It's lovely to um finally have you on for a chat . I know we met briefly about a month or so ago at the summit , which was a huge , huge event for our industry , and perhaps we'll touch on that again a bit later , um

Avnish's story

Speaker 2 2:47

, but I've wanted to have you on the podcast . You've been top of my list for a while because I I love the brand . I love the branding um , and I think you make a fantastic drink . So I always like to start by asking my guests to sort of share their story with Lone Ownation . So start where you'd like to start . What's your journey that led you to where you are today ?

Speaker 1 3:10

Yeah , so I can start with a bit of my background . So I was born in the UK but grew up in Canada and just working early career was in consulting , working in banking all over North America , working with the big banks in the US across Canada . And my wife , when she found out I was British , she was always trying to push me to move back to the UK . I'm like , why do you want to move back to the UK ? Everyone wants to go to Canada or the US . Do the other thing . But she eventually broke me down and we moved here .

Speaker 1 3:39

We moved to the uk , moved to london 10 years ago , a little over 10 years ago , and I think one of the social aspects that we recognized in the uk versus the us or canada is that the drinking culture is just stark , vastly different here . Uh , very , very different . In north america you kind of drink for the weekends Thursday , friday , saturday . If it's a football game , you know American football . You drink on Sunday . Here in the UK it's just it's all day , every day . It's not uncommon to find people at the pub 10 am on a Monday morning having a pint or so and we were very much part of the lifestyle . New to London . We love the gastronomy scene . We love going out and just celebrating and having a good time .

Speaker 1 4:20

That often came with an overindulgence on alcohol and also just working in the city . It comes with the territory to company dinners , team events . Everything just ends up at the pub . Even if you play sports you're trying to keep healthy . I play ice hockey , still play football back in the day and you know you always end up at the pub . And you know there was a point probably about six years ago we wanted to start a family and we said we'll live kind of more healthier lifestyles and cutting out alcohol was one of the kind of our goals of living that lifestyle .

Speaker 1 4:55

My wife had a very easy time cutting out alcohol . I had a very difficult time , just because you know the nature of where I was working . You know I loved having a gin and tonic every night . You know I loved going out to the bar with friends or to the pub with friends , enjoying that social atmosphere , but there wasn't really anything . There weren't any alternatives . Back there , sea Lip was just coming onto the scene Something new . Back there , seedlip was just coming onto the scene Something new . I wasn't really aware of it . I tried it . Some of the flavors were okay , some I loved , but some were not so great . But aside from that , there weren't very many options . But this idea , that kind of got implanted in my head when I was on a trip with my wife to the Middle East and we're on the British Airways flight and there's a High Life magazine in backseat and there's an article about Ben Branson and his journey . It was probably like 2017 , and that kind of sparked this idea .

Speaker 1 5:44

I said you know this is a fantastic idea . What he's done for spirits , has anybody done it for cocktails ? And you know , mocktails have been around for a long time but no one's really premiumized that space and taking it to the next level and created something really elevated . So this idea was just in my head all all the time I was out in the middle east , kind of how can I do this ? You know researching non-stop . And then I came back to london and just started experimenting in the kitchen , just having fun with it . I love making cocktails for friends and family at home . They also really adapt at mixing different ingredients and making some really great alcoholic cocktails . So for me it was a kind of a curiosity Could I recreate the flavors of popular cocktails but without the alcohol ?

Speaker 1 6:26

My wife was working in Sweden at the time . She was there three , four days a week , so I had a lot of free time on my hands . We didn't have kids at that point . I had a lot of free time on my hands just having fun . Um , I was buying copper still at one point in my kitchen which apparently is illegal , you can't have that in your kitchen and just buying ingredients wherever I could and just mixing and matching . You know there's some ingredients that you can't get in the uk unless you have a license , unless you're certified uh , a certified kitchen like quinine hydrochloride , which goes into the bitter flavor that goes into tonic , is highly poisonous . But you can get anything you want from Alibaba in China . So I started importing white powder from um from China and these unmarked blocks of white powder used to come to my house . My wife's like what are you doing ? What is this ? You know you're going to get us deported , don't worry , it'll it'll , it'll be fine , it's going to be fine . It's going to be fine , it'll be okay . Just relax , it'll pay off soon .

Speaker 1 7:19

But yeah , there's a lot of different ingredients in our drinks that you know . I took some time to really curate and find what works , what doesn't work . You know , like the ginger flavors in our drinks Dozens and dozens and dozens of ways you can go about it , kind of that warmth that you get from alcohol . I was trying to recreate that in many ways as possible . I tried things like buzz buttons , these little tingly flowers , these flowers that give you a little tingle on the tip of your tongue , like electric buzz on the tip of your tongue . They're like Szechuan peppers that you get in a hot pot . It gives you that nice numbness , all these random things . That gives you that nice numbness , all these random things .

Speaker 1 7:56

What we found is a lot of brands like to use capsaicin or cayenne pepper , which gives you a very sharp heat on the tip of your tongue , quite unpleasant . I've tried a lot of different things . There's one ingredient I got which was capsaicin extract . You're familiar with the Scoville units , scoville scale . Yeah , like habanero peppers are 100,000 . Yeah , like Carolina Reaper , one of the hottest is , I think , 1.5 million . You can get these little extract crystals from the internet . That are 16 million Scoville units . They come in like a locked case and everything . So I put one little crystal in a two-liter bottle of water and had a sip and I was on the floor . I was like my eyes were watering , my face was just red . Extremely dangerous , yeah . So there's a lot of personal pain went into developing these drinks , but I found some nice extracts , some nice , more pepper-based extracts . It gives you a bit more warmth in the back of your throat , and so it gives you a bit more warmth in the back of your throat and so it gives you a bit more evolution of of the flavor .

Speaker 1 8:57

So I developed these drinks over the course of 12 months in my kitchen um myself probably 12 different different types of drinks , just based on drinks I like , like an old cubans , my favorite alcoholic cocktails .

Speaker 1 9:08

We created a version of that spice roman cola , musco , mules , bellinis , all of it , um . And then we wanted to refine the brand as well , because what I found is that mocktails tend to be very bright , bold and sugary . I wanted to create a brand that was very classy , very sophisticated , more drier flavors , natural ingredients , so nothing artificial in there , trying to keep it as clean as possible . So we engaged the help of a commercial kitchen throughout 2019 to refine the recipes , commercialize them , make sure they're safe no one's passed out on the floor like I was and we developed the brand as well throughout 2019 , left my job late 2019 and launched January 2020 officially , yeah , the worst time to launch a business . We just had a baby at that point as well . Worst time to launch a business , but just had a baby at that point as well . Worst time to launch a business . But you know , a couple months later , the world shut down .

Speaker 1 10:01

And I can talk about the journey through there , but that was kind of the start of . It is more out of curiosity to see could I create something for friends and family that was really unique and different ?

Speaker 2 10:13

Wow , that's quite a journey . I've made loads of notes while you're talking because there's so many things I wanted to pick up on . First of all , are you okay now ?

Speaker 2 10:21

after that pepper in the water , completely fine to researching these ingredients because , whilst you have worked with people that can help you to develop these recipes , um , it's nice when you hear that a founder has actually been hands-on from the very beginning . You know , sitting in your kitchen , at your table , you know , I've got visions of you with pots bubbling over in one corner and vessels on the other side and just sort of like alchemy going on .

Speaker 1 10:54

Yeah , it was like a high school laboratory . It was . It's great , I still have all that stuff somewhere . It's yeah , the bunsen burners , the beakers , everything that's fantastic ,

Are these "mocktails"?

Speaker 1 11:04

um , that you mentioned .

Speaker 2 11:06

um , a word there that I wasn't planning on asking you this , but you mentioned it a couple times . I just want to get your thoughts on it . I recently put out an article on my linkedin newsletter and a post about the word mocktails . Now you use that word a couple of times there as well , and I find that it's one of the great debates within the Lono space . In fact , at the summit that you and I met at , I was part of a conversation with a group of professionals in the Lono space and it was very interesting listening to them about the use of the word mocktails . Now , your drinks are obviously ready-made cocktails . They're RTDs ready-to-drinks in cans for people to pop and pour and go . They are non-alcoholic cocktails and , as such , they are referred to as mocktails by some , but other people find that they think that that word is derogatory to the category or that it takes something away from the drinks that are made . What are your thoughts on the word ?

Speaker 1 12:03

Well , mocktails for me and why we kind of strayed away from the word mocktails . Mocktails to me has that connotation of very sugary drinks , just juices as an alternative to alcohol , but pretty much just juice and sugar . They don't really recreate the flavors of cocktails . You know there are a lot of brands out there that have done this for a number of years , dozens of years , and it hasn't evolved .

Speaker 1 12:30

What I find , what I feel , is that non-alcoholic cocktails are an evolution of the mocktail , so a more mature flavor profile , a lot more quality ingredients that go in there , a lot less sugar , healthier ingredients . So it is a similar product but yeah , I'd say more of an evolution to mocktail and that's why we want to distance ourselves from that name . But you know it's recognizable . People see the name and they think mocktail . So I'm not opposed to it because it brings people into the category , especially out in the us where mocktail is a really big , big word and is driving that category , and you know they're interchangeable . So it's just I think it's part and parcel of the same same product . Just we'd like to think of ours as premium mocktails and distinguish them by calling them non-out cocktails yeah , yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 2 13:15

I think your point there about it bringing people into the category and people understand what the word means in terms and so much as they know it's going to be a cocktail that doesn't have alcohol in it and I think you know we've got to be careful as voices in our space that we don't alienate people by saying that you know you can't use that word because it's not's not cool .

Speaker 2 13:36

Essentially is what the conversation is um , but I also , on the flip side , understand that the drinks that producers like yourself are making are not this sugary , fruity , layered , colorful drink that first pops to mind when you use the word mocktails . You know I'm thinking . You know I'm thinking umbrellas and swirly straws . I think

UK / USA production

Speaker 2 14:00

you mentioned there in America and what it's like sort of the community over there and them understanding the use of these drinks . I know that when we last spoke , you'd mentioned that you're spending a lot of time going back and forth between here and the States at the moment . How are you finding that , then ? Because you're doing fantastically well over here and we've all talked more about you know where we can find you . You've made your way into some amazing stores and retailers that people will recognize your brand in . When you're trying to do that in america , what kind of um reception are you finding that you're getting over there ? Because it's a different beast , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 14:38

It is . The landscape is completely different . You've probably heard this a hundred times . Every state is like its own country . Regulation is different , consumer trends are different .

Speaker 1 14:47

I think what we find over there there are dozens and dozens of non-alcoholic cocktail or mocktail brands out there . The competition is really fierce . But what we find out there is , I guess we cost advantage in the UK in that we have access to really high quality flavor houses , juice manufacturers , production facilities that are fairly cost effective , so we can produce a higher quality , a better tasting product than what you can find out there at the same price point . And I think that's really distinguishing us and probably a few other UK-based brands when it comes to what's available on shelf out in the US .

Speaker 1 16:01

In the US we also find because perhaps you know the lack of availability of really high quality flavors a lot of brands are not really trying to recreate the flavors of cocktails , which is we're very open . That's what we are doing . A lot of brands in the U , brands in us , are using additives , functional ingredients , trying to add that little extra edge to their brands to deliver a bit more than just flavor . You know brands like kin and a few others like that which you know , which is great . It adds to the overall category and options available for consumers , but it's not what we're about and , in terms of brands that are doing what we're doing , I think we're able to set ourselves apart because of the access to the ingredients that we have .

Speaker 2 16:47

Yeah , absolutely , and I think that often when I've spoken to producers about America , you're right they do have mentioned the fact that it's a different challenge over there because , as you say , it's not like here in the UK where you have a centralized supplier or two that might send your product out to different places . Each state has a different set of rules . So you know , I can imagine that for an independent , independent brand trying to learn to navigate , that must be quite a daunting task because you don't have the might of a diageo behind you or heineken , to sort of say right , okay we've got all these ends , you know , to start making those conversations across state lines .

Speaker 1 17:30

Yeah , there are a lot of complexities , not just around distribution , but even how retailers are categorizing products like ours and the three-tier system , three-tier alcohol system .

Speaker 1 17:41

Some retailers have to strictly abide by that system . That limits how many states you can sell into . One retailer we work with and we're expanding our footprint into , depending on the state we're openly able to sell our products . But in other states , unless they have a license for alcohol , we're not able to sell our products into that location because we're considered part of the BWS set , the beer , wine and spirit set . Even though we're non-alcoholic , we fall under that categorization and without that alcohol distribution license we can't sell into those states . Even though's the same . It's the same retailer across lines , across states , other retailers we're across country in about 300 locations . At one of our retailers sprouts and they're freely open to distribute into almost every state . So it's a mixed bag out there . It's quite complex and we do take it state by state wow , wow , that sounds like a huge undertaking .

Speaker 2 18:35

Um , let's bring it back to the drinks themselves , because we haven't told people what's in your fantastic range . Now

The evolution of the range

Speaker 2 18:42

, those who are watching our video can see a beautiful display behind me , but I wonder if you could take us through the drinks that are in the range Avnish and also you've had some iterations , haven't you ? Because I've seen that you previously had different range . You mentioned beforehand as well . You did a rum and cola style . You were in glass bottle for a while and now you're in . Can so take us through the range and the journey that those drinks themselves have been on ?

Speaker 1 19:07

Yeah . So I think the range and the evolution comes from my naivety as an entrepreneur . It was my first entrepreneurial venture , so you know you're very ambitious when you first launch . You want to take over the world , you want to deliver everything . So I developed 12 recipes and then we refined six of them and the advice that I was told was launch with three , just start with three . And I said no , I know what I'm doing , I'm going to start with six . So we had our core ranges a bellini mojito , we had the moscow mule , paloma , old cuban spice rum and cola and a whiskey sour , really great . We had them in 250 ml bottles . So I wanted to start with really nice premium glass bottles . When we launched , just no one else was doing that and it's really unique . I don't know if you've seen them before I don't . I don't think I have any available right now , but they're kind of tall body with a short neck so they kind of look like a liquor bottle , but they're really small .

Speaker 1 19:59

Uh , 250 mil , yeah they're beautiful looks fantastic , looks great , crown copper , crown cap and everything . But oh , no one could produce with them . They're just so difficult because they're very top heavy . So it was very hard to find a manufacturer that could produce that type of in that type of bottle . We had one manufacturer that we worked with and we did our pilot . You know I invested a lot of money into the , into the pilot , getting everything perfect and , um , the very first run the bottle started exploding on the line just like pop , pop , pop . And it's because they weren't used to working with that bottle . Um , they couldn't . The bottle couldn't handle the carbonation in in that neck and we lost , you know , 20 000 pounds . I didn't have any product , but 20 000 pounds is gone , um , in our first run . So not a good , not a good way to start , yeah , not a good way to start , uh , this new venture , um , but they're challenges that you learn . So we stuck with that bottle , we stuck with , so I stuck with six .

Speaker 1 20:52

I think it gave us a really good entry into the category , kind of a big splash into the category . People recognized us . Really great range of flavors I wanted to create . Because we're a brand that's about inclusivity and diversity , I wanted to create flavors for everyone . If you don't enjoy Prosecco or if you don't enjoy vodka , we have something in our range for you , and I think I took it maybe a bit too far and creating too many . And it's logistically is such a big challenge to manage because some sell really well , others don't sell as much and you just have difficulty trying to balance the inventory especially when you're young and you know your covet happens and there's so much irregularity that happened through covet uncertainty that happened .

Speaker 1 21:35

So then we moved to cans . We kind of had both cans and bottles after our first year and we started with the Bellini . So this is the Bellini , which is a nice peach and Prosecco flavor . So it's our alternative to a champagne . It's really nice ripe peach flavors , effervescent , aromatic peach with dry white wine finish to it . Really great for Sunday brunches , weddings .

Speaker 1 22:00

We do a lot of weddings with that , even corporate events , where you have a reception dinner and guests are offered either champagne or a non-alcoholic alternative . And we found a lot of guests when they're offered something that's non-alcoholic they'll opt to take it , especially at the first drink of the night . It's just kind of availability and visibility is key in this category . So we find that works really well for big events . And then we have a traditional mojito mint , lime and rum just very dry crisp . It's very difficult to get that fresh mint taste . We probably went through 100 different mint extracts to get it right and we're using like other flavors to give you that bit of a nose of mint . Um . So our drinks are quite complex in the number of ingredients that we have in there . We probably have about 10 to 12 ingredients per per drink , per flavor , and then we have the and I will .

Speaker 2 22:52

I will jump in and say that the mint really did come through on the mojito , because it's quite a tricky flavor , I think , because mint is quite , it's delicate , but you know it's there . And then when I poured it into my glass and it hit me on the nose , I was like , yes , that's what you want .

Speaker 1 23:07

Yeah , that's that fresh mint right that you get in the bar . Then we have a grapefruit paloma . So this is a tequila flavoring with bittersweet pink grapefruits . Just really nice , really different again , not too sweet , effervescent . And then my favorite is the ginger , the Moscow Mule . So this is the fiery ginger with a hint of mint , lime and has a vodka essence . Squad is vodka essence , but there's a subtle flavor that you have , you , you have in there , and that won a double gold at the san francisco spirit competition last year . Never heard of a double goal before , but we got it . It was the highest rated non-alcoholic cocktail in last year's competition , so it's really really great , great range . So that's our core range . We have new products in development as well that we're looking to launch shortly . Or bring back one of the other recipes that we have um in our toolkit , okay I was gonna say the muscovado meal really does pack a punch .

Speaker 2 24:00

That is ginger at its finest in there , because I again I tasted that one and I was like , oh yeah , that's it that you know , you've got some real ginger going on in there I was trying to find that balance .

Speaker 1 24:10

You know you have customers who like something fiery , but maybe it's too much for them , um , or some people want more . So you're trying to find they're going to tweak over the the years and that's going to benefit . Being a small company , you can quickly iterate your recipes and and refine them , and then we have you can't please all the people all the time , can you ?

Speaker 2 24:29

you have to provide what you think is the best quality drink that you can make and hope that the people that you're trying to reach can appreciate the nuances and you know what you're trying to create within that . But nobody likes everything and that's perfectly okay .

Speaker 1 24:46

And then you know , as we branch into retail , we wanted to create some nice , exciting packaging , so we recently launched these . These launched early last year and that's what's really gotten us a lot of recognition in the UK and the US . Every box you can see some behind me , they surely pop out on shelf . These are 4-can packs that are available at Sainsbury's , a number of retailers in the US , online Amazon , but a great way to . We have the 4-can mix pack here . This is the one that's sold in sainsbury's , so you have one of every flavor in there and what we find in this space . It's still a new , nascent category . People are still exploring . They're trying to understand what they like , what they don't like . So with the mixed flavor pack , it's a great entryway into non-alcoholic . That's eight pounds , you know , fairly low cost . You don't have to buy a 30 pound bottle of spirit and all the mixers and everything else and try to mix it yourself .

Speaker 2 25:37

This gives you four really great flavors and you can choose what you like and then you can move on to a full uh , full flavor pack after that yeah , I think the the mix pack is a great idea , um , not least of all because you don't always just want 12 of the same thing , you know especially if it's something like a cocktail that you're taking in a can to , perhaps , to a party or to a picnic or just round to a friend's house .

Speaker 2 26:00

You want to be able to mix up the drinks that you're having of an evening time and to be able to compare with your friends and say , you know , oh , you try this one , I'll have that one . So I think that's a great idea . And then people can then go to your website , I presume , and then , once they've decided on their favorites , they can then purchase multiples .

Speaker 1 26:17

Is that right ? Yeah , exactly .

Speaker 2 26:20

And we're finding that trend . For those that want to go and check it out , oh , it's Savillecom .

Speaker 1 26:24

Yeah , check it out , savillecom . Or you can find us on Amazon . We're on Ocado as well . In the UK , we're in Whole Foods and a lot of independent sites . So really good distribution throughout the UK .

Speaker 2 26:36

Yeah , and I think that's fantastic that you're in so many accessible places as well . And being on the shelves in Sainsbury's

Wholefoods to Harrods

Speaker 2 26:43

is , I know , a dream for many independents that I speak to . They want to make it onto the big supermarket shelves . Having spoken to other founders , I know that it's not necessarily the uh , the , the non-alcoholic nirvana that people might be hoping that . It is um , and it still poses some challenges . So what sort of challenges are you still finding , even though you're now so front and center in somewhere like sainsbury's ?

Speaker 2 27:13

are you still finding that you're fighting that sort of battle to get that shelf space and get that recognition ?

Speaker 1 27:20

Yeah , we were fighting . You know , like everyone , we wanted to be in the big supermarkets right away and you knock on doors very early on . So we've been pushing for four years three and a half , four years to get on shelf of one retailer . But it's baby steps . So we find some opportunities are just timing works out really well . Others are just grafting and working really hard .

Speaker 1 27:41

So we worked with a distributor early on and they had entry into Whole Foods . The Whole Foods were looking at that time for non-op cocktails , non-op drinks , and we were proposed . They loved it and we got on shelf in Whole Foods , which was fantastic . But there are also challenges . When we got on shelf in in whole foods , which was fantastic . But there are also challenges when you're on shelf , you know their whole foods doesn't necessarily have a non-op category , non-op bay like the bigger retailers like tesco or sainsbury's have .

Speaker 1 28:05

So we are positioned in the alcohol section next to the rtd alcoholic cocktails , next to the hard seltzers and you know it's tough when you're against that crowd to kind of call out that you're in this corner . If we're non-ALC , you're in this corner . Come look at us . So that's been a bit of a challenge there , but through that we're able to get into Harrods , we're able to get into a few other premium retailers , independent retailers , and just kind of incrementally it grows from there . We launched into Ocado through the back of getting a listing with Gorillas and then getting the distributor on board and then you can take it into Ocado . So everything kind of happens in stages . But the retail landscape , the big retail , has been quite tricky because non-algae is still new . What we found is a lot of the retailers . They put more junior buyers into the category and where we sit , the RTDs fall into spirits , into the spirits category . So beer behemoth beer is a behemoth category .

Speaker 1 29:04

It's on its own . We have wine , and then you have spirits , and underneath spirits you have non-alcoholic spirits and then we kind of fall under the non-alcoholic spirit category in terms of operations and buyer logistics . So there's not a lot of data in that category either . Data for non-ox spirits , but particularly RTDs very slim data because there's not a lot of products on shelf . So trying to find that data and use it to prove that you can be better than what's on shelf is quite challenging . And there isn't a lot on shelf . There's Gordon 00 , a couple of other brands like Funkin in Tesco and a couple of others .

Speaker 1 29:39

So you're against some really big , big brands and you're saying I'm this little guy , even though we're doing well in our other channels . You might have one space open a year and you have dozens and dozens of brands competing to get into that one space . And you have the big brands who want to launch NPDs , new products . You have celebrities coming out with products and they get on shelf right away . So it's extremely crowded , a lot of noise in this space .

Speaker 1 30:04

So I think a lot of it has to come down to persistence . As I mentioned , the junior buyers work hard to establish a relationship , showcase your product and then they're gone in six months and you have to start again . We found this just over and over and over again . So a bit of it is luck , finding that buyer who's committed to the role and committed to your brand and kind of is your champion . And that's what we found at Sainsbury's really great set of buyers , and we had other buyers from Whole Foods coming to Sainsbury's and we had other buyers from Whole Foods coming to Sainsbury's , from Mercado coming to Sainsbury's , and they internally were championing our brand as well . So everything kind of came together , which was fantastic . Again , hard work and a bit of luck came through .

Speaker 1 30:44

I know , as an entrepreneur , you don't want to hear that Other founders don't want to hear that it's a bit of luck . Truly it is .

Speaker 2 30:52

Sometimes you just catch a break and it works out in your favor . But you know what I like the saying about luck , which is that luck is where hard work meets opportunity , and it sounds that that's just what's happened with you . You know , you've worked hard , you've pushed for this , you've had the meetings , you've met the people , you've gone through the cycle time and time and time again , until it just so happens that these things sort of came together at the right time with the right people for you , that you were able to take advantage of that hard work and that opportunity to get the luck that you refer to .

Speaker 2 31:25

And you know , I'm an entrepreneur myself and you don't want to hear it . You just want to hear oh no , there's a great way to do it , just follow this short walk and everything will be fine . You'll be a millionaire this time next week , but sadly it just doesn't work like that .

Speaker 1 31:39

And that's the issue with the non-alcoholic space . There's no playbook . There's no playbook for non-alcoholic . It's not like you're introducing

Non-alc playbook

Speaker 1 31:45

a new peanut butter or a new energy drink . There's tons of data available and you can say I can just incrementally make something a bit better and there's routes on the shelf that are established and maybe I can push my way in there . The non-alcoholic space is continuously evolving . Spirits were big years ago with follow-on seed lip beers have been massive and now those craft beers , the big brands , the non-out cocktail space is far less refined . There's no strategy of what works , what doesn't work . The big players have been on shop for a while , but those brands gin and tonic , a non-out gin and tonic has gone quite stale and retailers haven't really introduced new flavors . So we're coming and pushing an eclectic array of flavors but again there's no playbook on how it should be done and what works , what doesn't work .

Speaker 2 32:33

You kind of just have to try everything all the time and just keep pushing . Yeah , absolutely . We're at the start of something here and you're building it as you're going along . So you're right , there is no playbook . There's no , this is how you do it . It's just , you are the playbook for the brands that are going to be coming behind you and they'll be looking at you , going right , what did Avalanche do ? How did they do this ? You know , can we ? We ? We have the same success if we follow the things .

Speaker 2 33:01

That I think makes your brand stand out is that it's clearly a high quality brand , and I wanted to get your thoughts on premiumization

Premiumisation in low & no

Speaker 2 33:11

within the low and no space . Um , you know , your , your your branding , the artwork that you use , the bottles that you discussed before they exploded , and your can work as well , all very high-end . What are your thoughts on the sort of premiumization in low and low ? Because now that the category has been established for a little bit of time , there seems to be a breakout of some brands trying to work towards a more , you know , trying to work towards a more higher-end clientele perhaps , as opposed to some who are going for the everyday market .

Speaker 1 33:51

I think for us and a lot of brands . When we saw the success of Seedlip , we thought we could follow that model . So when we launched in January 2020 , our model was to go into high-end bars and restaurants with our bottle . And they all said no , they're saturated with , bombarded with a lot of brands coming out at the time trying to follow that similar model . But we kept pushing on that front . But then COVID really kind of kicked this in our pants and said you know , you have to really have your business survive . You need to sell to the mass market . You need to kind of bring it down a couple of notches and make your product more accessible . And that's kind of why we went to cans versus bottles to bring down our price point , bring down our production costs , bring down our price point , make it more accessible , keeping the liquids the same Liquids we don't compromise on the liquids . We keep that the same . But making the product more accessible . But still , premiumization comes through the branding and how it's represented , how we convey our brand in terms of social medias and engagement with our customers to get them into the brand and get liquid on lips and once they try it they absolutely know it's a premium product . So we pushed on that angle for a number of years .

Speaker 1 35:03

But I think the non-alcohol space is still new , it's still maturing .

Speaker 1 35:06

So bars and restaurants didn't really get it at that point that a mocktail can be a high-quality product because to them mocktails are still juices ready to drink . Anything ready to drink at that point was still just sugar , water and juice . So that's taken some time to evolve . And what we're finding now is that vendors and bar managers are coming around and they value consistency of serve , convenience of serve , cost of serve , but also high quality something high quality that tastes like a prop cocktail that you can just pour . So we're winning a lot of accounts where they're serving a large number of customers really quickly but then want something really premium and classy that you can serve in the can , at the table or in a glass .

Speaker 1 35:46

But I think we're also riding a wave of premiumization in alcoholic cocktails . Brands like Motha have come to the scene and Tom Savano , who said it's no longer a tinny , a gin-in-a-tin type of proposition . You can have really high-quality ingredients and have high quality products and it's going to cost you a little bit more and we're seeing that spill over into the non-alcoholic RTD space and we are that product that has chipped away at it for years , and now that messaging is coming through and we're pushing on that and that's really differentiating us in the space .

Speaker 2 36:21

Absolutely . I wanted to touch on a subject that I think I don't often get the

Navigating diversity in low & no

Speaker 2 36:29

opportunity to talk to about . You have to excuse me . I've got a terrible frog in my throat . I'm recovering from a horrible flu , so excuse me if I stumble my words or sound a bit croaky . So this is a topic I don't often have the opportunity to talk about on this show . But with people who look like you and I , there is a notable difference in the amount of people within the low and low space on both sides , both consumers and producers , in the sort of diversity that's around , and I wanted to speak to you about that , because a lot of people , when they produce a brand , they are solving a problem for themselves , which you did and those are the founders that have the most passion behind their brands .

Speaker 2 37:14

But when I look at your marketing and perhaps the ladies on your boxes , you look quite different from the people that we'll see perhaps on your social media or in your branding . How do you navigate that on a personal level ? In terms of entering this market , that can be quite samey .

Speaker 1 37:40

Yeah , like as a new entrepreneur , I didn't know what to expect of how a founder needs to present themselves at the face of the brand . I thought you could just do a good job in the background and your products will sell themselves . Just growing up , I've never been a big self promoter . I've always been just good at doing what I do and kind of get through it throughout my career doing the same thing , but never really screaming and shouting about my accomplishments . I think for me that's one of the biggest challenges of being a founder is I'm still not very good at it . I'm trying , we have a lot of accolades and we do really well , but I'm not on LinkedIn all the time posting every little win or on social media . I think that's one challenge from my personal background . It's just the self-promotion . If you are an entrepreneur , you just have to scream and shout because no one else is going to do it for you .

Speaker 1 38:29

But in terms of the diversity , when I first launched into the space , I was one of the only ethnic minority founders in the non-ALC space and even today still one of the only few or handful of few and you touched on it right there a lot of the producers you know when you go to these events and the panel . You know the investors , the producers . You know the brand founders . You know all of them . There's a certain background and there's a visible limitation on the ethnic diversity . It's not representative of the UK society . And then you touched on consumers as well .

Speaker 1 39:02

We , as a brand that's about diversity and inclusivity , we actively target those who are from ethnic minority backgrounds , because at Punjabi wedding you'll get a bottle of shawaz whiskey on every table and a box of mango juice or some Coca-Cola . If you're not drinking , you don't get anything special , you get sugar . So for me , I started this brand to give really great alternatives to those who just don't have access , who have never been proposed alternatives by alcohol companies or soft drink companies . They just get the same thing all the time . So that was a big part of our marketing campaign was to push to these demographics . You know we were in tasty Africa for a while you know , the African chain food chain in London and it works really well .

Speaker 1 39:49

But you're not going to make a profitable business by doing that . When it comes down to it , you know it's a small market and a lot of that market are not open to these types of products .

Speaker 1 39:58

You know there's a very small percentage that love the products and are repeating their purchase .

Speaker 1 40:04

So we have to target and we want to be for everyone and we target everyone . And the majority of the consumers that are receptive to non-op products not just ours , but to non-op products are from the same , similar backgrounds . So for me it has been a very difficult challenge in that I don't represent my target consumer . Our target consumer is a British or American woman between the ages of 25 to 40 , single or has a young family , and there are a lot of brands whose founders come from that background and they're very vocal about that .

Speaker 1 40:35

So I think I'm probably pretty good at talking about the operational side and some of our wins in terms of representing the brand on social media . I rely on external sources marketing agencies or influencers to kind of build out that image that we're trying to convey , we're trying to portray , and it is still a very big challenge because you want to hear that directly from the founder . So it's something that we're grappling and we're still trying to figure out how to do it . But our team is really small as well just three of us and so we're heads down , focusing on execution and landing accounts .

Speaker 2 41:16

And so right now I'm relying on external factors to build out that profile of the brand .

Speaker 2 41:19

I think you raise a lot of really important points there .

Speaker 2 41:20

I think one of the things for me is one of the reasons why I have this podcast as a video podcast even though I don't do a lot of promotion for the video

The importance of being seen

Speaker 2 41:26

side of it on YouTube is that I want to be seen . So I don't have this conversation very often , because I think actions are more impactful , more powerful than words for people like you and me and other ethnic minorities within this space to make sure that we're seeing , because I think one of the dangers is that , you know , people often say that you need to see somebody like you to know that you can achieve what you want to achieve , and until we're more visible , more vocal , it's harder for people to recognise that there are other people in their own communities , whether they be black or Asian or you know from wherever that also live this lifestyle , because I think it's . We run the risk of assuming that people of different ethnicities aren't as interested in these drinks , but is that because they don't see enough representation and they don't realise that these drinks are for them as well ?

Speaker 2 42:29

much as in the way of many other things that we've all had to deal with , such as jobs and education and that sort of thing and is it that the visibility of people like us will help more people go ? Actually , it's okay to be African and not want to drink . It's okay to be african and not want to drink . It's okay to be punjabi and not want to have a boozy wedding , you know , and and to give people that opportunity to see that there are more people that look like me , who live the way that I want to live , and that's why I think it's so important that we find a way to to be more visible and to get on more panels and more boxes and such , and I think it's about how you , as you said , make that opportunity more visible to our communities .

Speaker 1 43:10

I've been thinking about this a lot and it comes down to well . My take on it is you know , we come from first , second generation immigrants whose parents moved here , or maybe we moved here from different countries and you're just kind of surviving and getting through the system and I bring this term up quite a bit on other podcasts you don't have necessarily that safety net to fall back on to take that risk to say I want to be an entrepreneur , I want to quit my nine-to-five job and just do this full-time . That's a huge risk for anyone . What I find , especially in the UK in the F&B space , there's a lot of founders that come from more comfortable backgrounds I'll have to be careful what I say but more comfortable backgrounds and possibly could take that risk because they have that safety net that they can fall back on if things fail . But for us , a lot of us are taking care of our parents . You know , we have still upbringings where we're trying to make our mark in life and we just don't have that safety net to fall back on if things fail . So we choose not to take that risk and follow a more safe path , like being an engineer or a lawyer or a doctor going through the education system . So I think that might take another generation to work itself out .

Speaker 1 44:28

But we as founders can , you know , can showcase what we've done in this space . And we're working with organizations in London to try to give back to the community . You know working with Sapphire Community Group I mentioned earlier in South London , where we're trying to give opportunities to those from these types of backgrounds underrepresented , underprivileged backgrounds . We've done a couple of internships now where we've given them exposure to what a career in food and beverages is like , and we want to do more of that . Again , we're still quite small but as we grow we want to do more and more of that . And if other brands who have founders from minority backgrounds can do the same , I think slowly we can make a difference in this community . And , as you said , it's all about visibility and making sure that we , as ethnic minority founders , are screaming just as loud as others .

Speaker 2 45:16

And I think you made a really interesting point about not shouting about your own achievements very much on places like LinkedIn or social media . I post quite a lot now , but it's been a battle for me to get to the point where I felt like I could , particularly with LinkedIn , because LinkedIn is such a corporate platform and LinkedIn to me was always sort of like the online version of the city . You know , to me I thought it was like a really suited and booted corporate landscape and I just didn't feel like I fit in . If I'm telling the truth , I just didn't think that people would want to see me or hear from me there and in other places .

Speaker 2 46:06

I still sometimes have to just almost force myself just to press send and to put those things out there and to shout about things that I'm doing , because , as you said , if you don't do it , then no one else is going to do it for you .

Speaker 2 46:13

But what I found is that once I do it , then you'll find the people that will then support you , no matter what , and you know , and the comments that you get back , which are just blanket support and have nothing to do with anything other than you're doing a great thing and I want to see more of that , and then that inspires me to keep going and go right . Okay , I'm doing a good thing , we're showing something positive to everyone , not just people that look like us , but making that change without making it the purpose of what we're doing . But it is hard and it's not . You know , when you grow up as second generation , it's not what you're taught to do . You're not taught to go out and shout about yourself . You're taught to just put your head down , get on with what you've got to do , do your studies and get that really boring job that you mentioned before .

Speaker 1 47:04

Yeah , exactly right . So I think it will take time . Us , and those like us , are kind of at the forefront of this and it's up to us to kind of lead that movement .

Speaker 2 47:16

Yeah , amazing . You mentioned the Sapphire Community Group . Is that what it's called ? Yeah , yeah . So , based in Sapphire , I'll make sure what it's called .

Speaker 1 47:24

Yeah , yeah .

Speaker 2 47:25

So based in the show notes for people .

Speaker 1 47:27

Sure , no problem .

Speaker 2 47:27

Yeah .

Speaker 1 47:28

Really great organization , abundance of talent that are just looking for that opportunity to kind of showcase themselves . So , yeah , anyone feel free to reach out to them and access their pool of resources .

Speaker 2 47:41

Amazing , amazing . Thank you very much , avnish . It's been amazing chatting to you before I let you go . I've got my last question and I will ask you again to share your website again . But my last question , which goes to everyone who comes on the show , because I'm all about spreading the love across low no nation and making

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 48:00

sure people know about amazing drinks to try , and I love knowing what founders are enjoying . So , uh , before we press record , we were talking about this , uh , freak weather we're having , where it's 21 degrees but torrential downpour . Um , but imagine it's just warm weather and it's a lovely day and you and your lovely wife are off to a barbecue at a friend's house . Other than the amazing range of several fantastic ready-to-drink cocktails , what other low-no or light drinks do you like to enjoy when you're choosing to drink less alcohol ?

Speaker 1 48:34

I think I have to go back to the original pioneer in this space . I really love Seedlip Spice 94 . It's very simple . I love cardamom , I love the peppers . Pour it with some full fat tonic on ice and it's probably one of the better , more well-rounded non-alcoholic cocktails that and it's just so simple to make , so simple and clean . But yeah , another recommendation or another favorite of mine is being an entrepreneur is stressful , raising kids is stressful , so we need that relaxation and I really enjoy uh three spirits nightcap as well . It's always on my shelf just poured over ice at night while working on emails till two in the morning or whatever .

Speaker 2 49:13

We do crazy hours that we work and it's just a nice way to just take a bit of a break yeah , yeah , you always need that that little extra boost when you're , uh , raising a business at the same time as raising children . There's two jobs at once . Great recommendations , thank you very much . And just to remind people , if they want to go and find out more about you , more about the brand , they want to go and buy some amazing cocktails , remind us what's the website to send them to .

Speaker 1 49:42

Yes , I head to savillcom . S-a-v-l-lcom .

Speaker 2 49:48

Amazing . I'll make sure that goes in the show notes , Avnish . Thank you so much for your time . Have a great day .

Speaker 1 49:53

Thanks , pleasure to talk to you . Thanks , denise .