Coming up

Speaker 1 1:12

I woke up the next morning and went down to the kitchen feeling very worse for wear and on the kitchen table was the tumbler for the night before and , you know , the bartender's essential , barocca . And I'd been thinking the days leading up to that how amazing Barocca was , that surge of energy , that surge of positivity that helped me get through certain days . And I just said , well , you know why can't the two be together ? It was a very basic thought .

Speaker 2 1:39

Hi hi Lono Nation , and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Today , I'm very happy to introduce to you a man with a name that I obviously adore , and that is Mr Hamilton Lowe . He is the founder behind the functional drink spirits brand Smiling Wolf , which , if you're on video , you can see behind me just here .

Speaker 2 2:00

Hamilton and I met a few weeks ago when we were both speaking on the Future Trends panel for the Club Soda , low and no 10 years of Low and no Summit , which was absolutely a mammoth event and , a side note , if you didn't manage to make it there and you want to listen to our panel with our other panellists or any of the others , I believe you can go to the Club Soda website and get access to all the speakers that are available on that day . But today we are here to talk about functional spirits and all things Smiling Wolf . I've got to admit this is not a category that I am very well versed in , so I'm going to be learning with you . As I ask Hamilton , what I'm sure he'll find are very inane questions , but if you don't ask , you don't know . So thank you so much for joining me , hamilton . How are you doing ?

Speaker 1 2:50

Very well . Thank you very much for having me , denise . Yeah ,

Launch challenges

Speaker 1 2:52

all good , all good . Been a quick start out the box this autumn , but we seem to be just about on top of things .

Speaker 2 3:00

Yeah , you've had a lot of stuff going on , right . I mean , you're building this brand and getting it out there and it just every time I speak to you it seems like it's always like a whirlwind of just stuff being done .

Speaker 1 3:15

Yeah , I guess . So I mean , it's a startup . We've got past experience in these things . But when you start in the industry , but when you're a startup , nothing ever goes quite to plan . There's always something around the corner . You're not doing what you think you're doing , you're just putting out fires most of the time . So hopefully we'll get into a rhythm soon . But yeah , it's a little manic at the moment , um . But you know , in the drinks industry , uh , autumn is a little manic with , uh , bcb and world 50 best and all the events in Europe . Everyone's a little all over the place .

Speaker 2 3:49

So yeah , to be expected , yeah , you're right , there's a lot of events going on , there's a lot of stuff , uh , all over the world that I'm seeing , and obviously brands like yourself are sort of getting their wares out to everybody , which that in itself , I can imagine , is quite an undertaking . But launching a brand I mean , I've obviously launched my own business and my own elements , but I've never launched a product that you know someone's going to consume in this way and , whilst I might have to contend with printers and , you know , getting a blog out , it's very different from actually producing something of quality for people to drink .

Speaker 1 4:30

Well , I wouldn't do yourself that much of a disservice . It's the same . You always want it to look like a duck on the top of the water and you know , underneath it's those feet are paddling . You've got to produce content on a far more regular basis and organize it , and yes , printing is a part of both of our industries , and that always has certain challenges . So I wouldn't do yourself a discredit . Launching a brand in any sector is pretty darn difficult .

Speaker 2 4:56

Oh , thank you , my sweet . It's interesting because obviously I get the . I'm privileged to speak to a lot of founders on this podcast and some I speak to are like yourselves and they're just in that startup phase , and some that I speak to who have been doing it for quite some time and you know , it seems that it doesn't matter where you are in the journey . You know you're always putting out the fires , you're always learning , you're always developing , but I suppose that's part of the journey that we go on right . If we want to produce something and make it be the best that it can be , then we're going to have challenges along the way . So it's just finding that tenacity to be . I always liken entrepreneurship to just being really , really stubborn .

Speaker 1 5:38

Yeah , or masochistic , yeah , you know what you're in for . Usually , yeah , it's going to be glorious and you see , you look back on it and you remember the good bits . But when you're in the middle of like , oh my gosh , this is . Did I really bite off more than I could chew here ?

Speaker 2 5:54

well , let's talk a bit about what you've bitten off , then and and how you got to that stage . So

Hamilton's story

Speaker 2 5:59

I always like to start the show by asking , uh , my guests to to share a bit of their backstory and and start where you want to start . Um , but what was the journey that led you to the point where you've launched this brand ?

Speaker 1 6:11

um , well , it's been a very long journey . Um , I , I started back in my mid-20s in advertising and got , completely by chance , placed on the Johnny Walker account at a great agency called BBH . That is obviously a behemoth of an account and does wonderful marketing , especially back in 2010 , 2012 , with the Keep Walking campaign . It was really interesting watching , you know , going up to go and see the distilleries with them and so on and so forth . And I then left advertising because I wanted to be more involved in the creative side of things , have more creative control .

Speaker 1 6:52

And an old school friend of mine had a Cachaca brand in Brazil , of all places , and I was still young enough to say you know what , let's go and have an adventure , let's go build a brand and let's go and do it on the other side of the world . So packed our bags and moved to Brazil , which was great , fun and incredible experience . What a country you know for . It's good , then it's bad . It is never dull , that's for sure . I'm building a business out there and I got to do it with my best mate . So , yeah , so we built this brand and I got to have creative control . I'm not sure if I did a good job of it or not , and time will always tell . And that also allowed me to build a , you know , build myself in and experience the spirits industry globally . Uh , we launched in brazil , but then we went and launched in new york , um , so learning how everything in america worked , learning the great bars , the great bartenders , meeting them . And then back to the uk , um , to come back home and start building it in europe . Uh , and then also Asia , going and launching it in places like you know Shanghai , singapore , beijing , bangkok . I mean really really got a real whirlwind experience , which I treasure and , most of all , so many learnings , so many learnings of how Spirits works , how the industry works , the trade , the off trade , all these sort of things . So that's really how I got into the spirits industry , which was building a , my first brand .

Speaker 1 8:24

And then in 2017 , we launched a gin in Brazil to take , to take advantage of the great , the huge gin boom which had already happened over here in Europe but had just got to Brazil , and it completely boomed . And that product did very well , became the number one selling domestic premium gin , and the Cachaça Iguana in 2021 and 2022 was the lead trending Cachaça in Drinks International and lead selling . So we did a really good job , but how did I get to Smiling Wolf ? Well , it was a bit of an odd one .

Speaker 1 8:56

Obviously , what happened during COVID is things changed a little bit , habits changed , and our company started to work much more in Brazil again , travel around as much , and so was really thinking to the future . What was the future ? And to me , um , the . The start was seeing the undeniable human trend outside of our industry . Um , but just a philosophical train for everyone . Uh , about people wanting to be healthier on a more regular basis . Uh , for a variety of reasons , whether that that was achievement . Literally their health and wanting to live longer , mental health was a massive one , maybe one that I probably relate to the most , coming from the spirits industry , and I wanted to do , I wanted to see what our industry would do with this philosophical change , and the idea actually came to me in Sao Paulo , though , when I was over there for a meeting , and you know , I woke up the night after another Hamilton , lewis Hamilton had just won the Sao Paulo Grand Prix , and I had a , you know , and I had a very bad night the night before trying to get into bars and restaurants with my name being Hamilton , because you know you go up to the door and say what's the name ?

Speaker 1 10:17

I say Hamilton , and they just look at you and basically tell you to be , you know , piss off . So I don't recommend that . And so I didn't have a very successful night and ended up back at home . My friends and I woke up the next morning and went down to the kitchen feeling very worse for wear and on the kitchen table was the tumbler for the night before and you know the bartender's essential , barocca . And I'd been thinking the days leading up to that how amazing Barocca was , that I actually genuinely felt that surge of energy , that surge of positivity that helped me get through certain days . And they were just sitting there next to each other and I just said , well , you know , why can't the two be together ? Was very basic thought it was .

Speaker 1 11:01

You know I love drinking spirits and going out , not only because of the taste and the environment and the people you're with , but I also do love the effect and whether that's a wind up or a wind down , you know , and it's amazing how spirits can go both ways . You know , if you're up for a party , they take you one way . If you're wanting to chill out , they take you another way . And so I felt that maybe that would be a concept , with this philosophical change , that people would really warm to . Certainly I would warm to .

Speaker 1 11:32

I wanted to create something which was for non-drinkers obviously people who don't drink spirits , but also for drinkers , for those people like me who could no longer go out five , six nights a week all the time and drink alcohol , who wanted to zebra stripe or some days no , and some days yes . I didn't like that feeling that you know , when you're tired and you used to want to go , you know someone say come out , and you wouldn't go out , not because you didn't want to see them , because , oh gosh , I might have to drink and I just didn't have that option out there . And I and and don't get me wrong , I'm , I'm , I love spirits still and I still drink spirits and I'm still probably on the Friday night , I'm still going to go and have , whether it's a , you know , a margarita or a martini or a daiquiri or whatever it is . But it's all the other times that I'm in that situation and I don't want to . I want to be sharp the next morning . I don't want to have that slightly mental health problem the next morning when I'm not feeling good and I just looked at the beer industry and saw how the beer industry had come on so far in terms of quality .

Speaker 1 12:38

And I saw other spirits , non-alcoholic spirits brands had also , in the quality of their liquids , come so far and started seeing some functional stuff going out there and I just wondered if it was possible . Was the technology , the liquid technology , effectively there ? And I asked a few people . Met my business partner , alberto Gavazzi , who knew a gentleman called Steve Wilson who developed Steve developed Bailey's back in the 70s . He physically that was him .

Speaker 1 13:09

He did Tanqueray Tan , he did Purdy's as the you know upmarket , you know energy drink , if you will , as it was now , and started speaking to him is this possible ? And his son runs one of the best functional labs in the country and I said is this possible ? And they said if you'd come to me five months earlier we probably would have said no , but we think this is possible and that was three years ago and it's not a complicated concept . It's Can I have the same drinks that I love without the alcohol , but replacing it with a healthier , more 21st century buzz feedback , whatever you want to call it , without the negatives ? It's not a hugely complicated concept , but it is one that to make has been hugely challenging and exciting at the same time . So , yeah , that's kind of a journey from , you know , getting into the spirits industry and then wanting to be part of it with this new philosophy that there is around the world

The moments that make us

Speaker 1 14:06

.

Speaker 2 14:07

Well , first of all let me say I'm very sorry that you've had such a very boring and stable sort of life where you've not gone there anywhere or done anything . I mean it sounds terrible for you living in all of these places .

Speaker 1 14:17

I know awful just touring the world , going to the world's best bars and having some of the world's best drinks and having good times . Yeah , it was . It was yeah , why would I do ?

Speaker 2 14:26

that life , but somebody's got to do it . Absolutely , um , you know , absolutely , uh , sounds like a wonderful experience and I can see how all of those things would have come together because I love it . You know , we sort of say , you know , I had this moment , you know , this shower moment or this , this , you know , sunday morning moment . But it's not just that one moment , is it ? It's all those things that we've done before , all those bits of our lives that have come together to get us to this one place where we've finally gone . Ah , hang on a minute . This is why I'm here right now , and I love that .

Speaker 2 14:55

It was , you know , that sort of simple of going see last night's drink and then tomorrow this morning's Barocca and going . These two should be working together .

Speaker 1 15:06

It was , you know , barocca . Genuinely I could feel Barocca . I couldn't say sometimes , with other things , I feel the Barocca I genuinely feel and just like surely there's something as I genuinely feel , and just like surely there's something as long as it doesn't come out

Understanding functional drinks: are they drugs?

Speaker 1 15:22

tasting like fluorescent orange or fire .

Speaker 2 15:23

I'm intrigued by what your uh , your , your , your colleague said at the uh functional uh factory uh , that if you'd asked him five months ago he didn't think that this would have been possible . Because it just speaks to how quickly this sector , our industry in general , and particularly your sector , is moving , because it seems like there is a lot of interest in functionality at the moment and it really is a growing , growing interest , but but at the same time , one that people seem to know so little about . I'm not sure if you notice it as much yourself , because you're within it all the time , and I've noticed myself that I think that people know everything about what I do because I see it all the time , and then I speak to somebody who doesn't know much about the low no world and I realize that they don't even know the basics . Are you finding that , as you're getting this out to people , you know what ? What are the questions ?

Speaker 1 16:23

that you're getting all the time about these functional drinks , because are people understanding how to use them and what they can do for them ? The , um , functional ? Wow , are they drugs ? It's kind of like the first thing that always gets asked like , no , they're not , don't know . Are they mushrooms ? No , they're not . Calm down , no , um , look , I think , functional .

Speaker 1 16:38

There's two sides to that answer to that question . One is that in the United States , functionals are huge and they are , I think , in the top . They're now in the top three reasons for purchase after weight loss in the United States . You know functional ingredients within all sorts of products and so over there it's huge and it's growing and it's booming . The UK less so yet , because I don't think it's quite come over here . But the other but the strange thing is is that we've had functionals with us for about 35 years . We just didn't realize it .

Speaker 1 17:13

So you know hydration drinks and you know supplements within those sort of that sort of area have had functional ingredients in them for ages . Energy drinks , even though they're slightly more spiky and you know have you know have a purpose of giving you a real boost of energy which is sort of short and sharp . They've been around for a long time . But like anything , any technology , they've just developed . They've really developed . They've become more sophisticated and they now you know that whole world it's moving away from just technology hydration drinks , sports drinks , um , you know , energy drinks . It's now able to be tailored to work on things like , you know , dopamine , serotonin , things that make you relax , things that do energize you , but controlling that energy . They've just become so much more , um , sophisticated and in many ways , you know it's it's funny we're talking about bringing functionals into non-alcoholic , but I also think that what ourselves and other brands out there are doing is actually we're the first time we're bringing functionals into the bar space .

Speaker 1 18:25

The bar and the restaurant space has never really actually brought those ingredients in there because there's never really been a product that fits them .

Speaker 1 18:33

You know , bars are by and large , less likely to stock cans and all that sort of formatting and actually by bringing , putting them in the spirits which live inside a bar and restaurant world , or putting them inside wines um , you know , dealkalized wines if they start doing that with in a in a , in a in a in the future , it's basically just bringing it into a space that they've never really been able to tap . So there's a couple of things going on there , but no , the reaction's been really good . People are very excited to learn about that here in the UK . They just knowledge levels are increasing , but there's a lot of education to do , a lot of explaining , but the bottom line is is that you've had them in your world for a very long time . They've just become more sophisticated now that we can do a lot more more focused and pinpoint more effects and work with them and use their benefits more than just hydration , sports drinks and and energy drinks .

Speaker 2 19:30

Really yeah

The ingredients that make SW functional

Speaker 2 19:31

, absolutely . Let's talk about some of those effects and those benefits then . So , within the smiling wolf range and we will get on to the drinks that are in that range . But first of all , so that people can understand , um , I know that your uh recipes is proprietary and so you cannot tell me , uh , you know the exact measurements of everything that goes in and that's okay , you know , um , but what is in your drinks , that that that is considered functional , and what function do they ? Uh ? Do they produce for people ?

Speaker 1 20:02

what they produce . Um , I think first is really worth saying just we use the what we've been using the word function just explaining what functional is . You know , functional are ingredients , um , which have specific physiological and health benefits beyond just raw taste and raw hydration . That's something we brought up in the panel . We were on Our approach to what we want to do . Why we use the word functional is because we there was basically there was no barrier in our head . There was basically there was no barrier in our head . There was no barrier to what we could use to try and achieve what we wanted to achieve , as long as it was legal and healthy . You know , because if you're working with something , maybe , where the legislation is moving all the time , that's really difficult to create a product . When the target is moving , trying to hit a moving target is impossible and we didn't just want to just do active ingredients or just do nootropics .

Speaker 1 20:59

Our approach to it really was , um , that to create the effect that we , the feeling that we wanted to feel people to feel was to be a sum of its parts and it's sort of split into sort of four different bits . So we use active ingredients , we use vitamins , we use nootropics and we use amino acids . And , in very basic terms , what we looked at is we looked at how the brain reacts with alcohol . There's different parts of the brain which activate effectively , and could we basically recreate the positive parts of that , those effects in the brain , and not the negatives ? And the two negatives that we didn't want to have were anxiety and loss of control , which are fundamental to us . But what we did want is we did want people to feel that sense of relaxation and also improve cognitive function . And so , instead of having a sort of energy spike , we have long energy , which you want . You don't want to spike because then you have a crash , but the increased cognitive function allows you to wind up if you're in a situation to wind up , or the relaxation side of things allows you to wind down if you want to wind down .

Speaker 1 22:16

The the brain is an incredible thing , um , because you know it basically will take you where it wants to take you . I'll give you an example . When you drink spirits it's the same . You know , I come home at five and I drink a beer and I wind down . And I've wind down if I take a spirit . Uh , if I take the same beer and have it at night , at night when I'm and I wind down . And I've wind down If I take a spirit , if I take the same beer and have it at nine at night , then I'm out , I wind up and that's totally down to the way my brain wants to interpret that . And so basically , we're still offering the brain the two options of to wind up or wind down , but also we're making them less extreme . We want that light , good feel , good feeling . We don't want that't want that spike , that loss of control , that bit that you know where many of our bad experiences come from . We don't want that . If you want to , you know , if you want that , we're not the product for you , but if you want that good feeling where

How it works

Speaker 1 23:18

you can go and control and you can go up or down , and that's where we're very much , very much for you . I think .

Speaker 1 23:21

To explain how it works as well , it's worth mentioning that when the alcohol goes into the , into the system , it floods the brain with blood and therefore it reacts and you know , basically alcohol goes down those neurotransmitters . What we're doing is we're simply stimulating that part of your brain . We're not going down the neurotransmitters , we're stimulating it to produce the chemicals from your body which basically give you those feelings . And so , rather than sending something down a news channel , we're just stimulating you and your body actually starts to do the rest . And that's why it's still healthy . It doesn't give you long-term effects and that's why it's still , you know , healthy . It doesn't give you long term effects and it's actually perfectly healthy . There's nothing , absolutely nothing wrong with just stimulating your brain to do more of what it's already doing , rather than giving it something to affect it down the neurotransmitter . So that's kind of how our functional formula works between the four different bits .

Speaker 2 24:14

It's really

Finding the formula

Speaker 2 24:14

fascinating . It's really fascinating . How long did it take you to sort of come up with the right formula ? Because I can imagine that , with this being such a new area , there's been a lot of trial and error and experimentation and learning on your part , right . So how long did it take to actually figure out what this magic combination should be ?

Speaker 1 24:35

um , I , I think just on that side , because we've kind of split smiling wolf into two sides . One is the taste , the you know the . You know we talk about spirits and food . Um , drinks , in fourth dimensions , you know one , that it's a liquid . Two is the taste . Three is sensorial . Four is effect . Um , so we're right now we're talking about the fourth dimension , which is effect , and focusing in on that , gosh , I think it probably took us close to two years . Close to two years .

Speaker 1 25:03

First , you know you try something and you know it's very difficult with these things because you try them and you want to feel something and it depends so much where you are . You know , am I having an 11 o'clock ? Have I drunk that morning ? Have I have I eaten ? Am I in an environment where I've got distractions ? It's again just like spirits , it , you know , your environment really dictates how much it impacts you . Um , and so , yeah , we , we went into it for a few , you know , for a year , close to two years , and I think after about a year we felt we were getting somewhere . And then the last year was really tweaking certain elements of the formula to make sure it had that right balance for us between relaxation and cognitive function and making sure that you , you know , at the end of it as well . You know if you drink something at nine o'clock , you can hit , you put your head on your pillow at 11 o'clock and you're going to be absolutely fine . So it's tweaking levels and so on and so forth .

Speaker 2 26:03

But yeah , about two years . And also , you know , not only would you feel fine when you put your head on the pillow at nine o'clock , but the following morning , which is a driver for a lot of people , my own driver into this , this uh world of of a life less intoxicated , was me saying to myself uh , you know , it's not that I don't want to drink again , it's not that I'm going to go sober . I said to myself , I never , ever , ever want to have a hangover again . That was my goal .

Speaker 1 26:27

Well , this is the sophistication of this is the sophistication of , you know , functionals and the liquid developers and science that's out there . I mean , we , we combine uh , fanonine and theonine , uh , which is known to produce gaba , which is alpha brain waves , which is very related to alcohol , um , spirits , um , but then when you combine that with low levels of caffeine , that's actually uh , known to improve your sleep , um , rather than you know . And who would ever think that that actually caffeine would to improve your sleep , rather than you know ? And who would ever think that actually caffeine would actually improve your sleep if treated in the right way ? So that's what I mean about the sophistication of it .

Speaker 1 27:34

There's just there is so much that people are doing and we're having this conversation now and in six months time it will move forward again and I think all of us in the functional space will be constantly updating with new technology . To you know , the goal is the same , but we can just improve it , and so I kind of often see the functional spirits rather than in spirits world . You sort of make your spirits your first brand and then maybe you come out with a Navy Cask strength or a Cherry Cask , or a Port Cask strength or a cherry cask or a pork cask . I feel like the innovation within our sector is more like having an iPhone and then you're going to come out with iPhone 2 , iphone 3 , iphone 4 , as things and technology moves forward and forward , and forward . That makes it better .

Speaker 2 28:15

Great analogy . Let's talk , then , about the brand , about the range , rather , and the drinks that are in the range . So , for those

Does it taste weird

Speaker 2 28:24

who are watching this on youtube , I've got behind me , uh , five bottles from the smiling wolf . Uh , so , hamilton , can you take us through these ? And and the flavor profiles , because one of the things that I think people want to know about when it comes to functional drinks as well um because they're new to them is how do they taste ?

Speaker 1 28:43

well , the good thing about functionals is twofold . I mean one , what to start with ? I mean , if I would give you a shot of the functional formula , um , it doesn't taste fantastic , but neither does alcohol . Uh , when you have raw alcohol , right , it's not the , it's not the best thing . So , right at the beginning , you know alcohol , spirits were developed actually to make alcohol , uh , uh , acceptable taste wise that you know cocktails , that was kind of the at the very beginning , um , and so there's a little bit of that going on with us .

Speaker 1 29:12

But the one good thing about functionals is that we can condense them down to such a small concentration that then the taste profile is taken over by what you fill the void with in terms of liquid taste flavor , um . So you know , to answer the question , you can't taste the functionals in our , in our products . There isn't a sort of my gosh that I can taste that thing at the bottom and there might be a hint , a hint , and I can maybe get to it , but by and large you won't . And so it's an adult taste , that that little hint , but by and large you won't . And so it's an adult taste , that that little hint , but by and large no one has come . No one has ever come back to me in the five months that our product has been getting tasted and fed back , or no one's come back to me saying , oh gosh , I can really taste the functionals and that that just doesn't happen what feedback are you getting ?

Speaker 2 29:59

are people loving the drink ? Are they uh ? Are they jumping at it ?

Speaker 1 30:04

The feedback has been fabulous . The feedback has been fabulous especially they're jumping at it because most of us have cocktails and whether those are classics , neoclassics , personal cocktails that we love , and just to be able to have that same cocktail and it tastes the same and for it to give a little bit of feedback , a little get something back from that drinking it's a little bit of effect , which is very pleasant means that I'm standing in a bar , I'm having dinner or pre dinner , and I don't feel like I'm compromising compared to the person who's having a full spirits drink across the table for me'm having my own four-dimensional experience . Um , with the cocktail that I love , made by the bartender , which I love , in the place that I love , and it's in many ways this is all about not compromising to the nth degree . Um , uh , on the experience more than anything else . It's . I always found it so , time you go out and you have , you know your night out is based about the people you're with , the place , you , the foods you eat and the drinks you drink , and to compromise on one of the four was something that just irritated me . So I'm glad that we're starting to see products Smiling Wolf and others which don't mean that , but that's not answering your original question .

Speaker 1 31:22

The original question was what the taste profile ? So we wanted to . That was a good answer to work . That was still good . Oh god , maybe I don't know , we'll see in the edit um but um . But the , the , the taste profiles we wanted to go with , sort of like the five base spirits that we felt we could really

Flavour profiles: rum, gin, aperitivo, agave, vodka

Speaker 1 31:43

uh , achieve a , uh , a quality flavor profile , sensorial profile with . And that started off with I'm just going left to right behind your head rum .

Speaker 1 31:56

We made them all at the same time . Rum , which is , you know , made from all of our products , are made from the original spirit . And then there are a few tricks , knowledge that we use , because every single type of distillation is different and there are bits from each , whether it's gin to whiskey , to the tequila , whatever it may be . They are different types of distillations and there are bits in them that one can use to create even more authentic flavor within your non-alcoholic spirit , as it would be . So that's kind of our base way we make them . The rum is aimed at a spiced rum . Molasses , vanilla , vanilla with oak , you know , I personally my two favorite drinks when I was younger probably not so much was spiced rum or bourbon . Those were my things that I used to love doing , so I was really glad to go with spiced rum .

Speaker 1 32:54

Then we have the gin . So I used to have a gin company . I used to have a gin brand Gin . To me there are wonderful gins with all sorts of botanicals in there , but predominantly you do need juniper with all sorts of botanicals in there , but predominantly you do need juniper . And so you know juniper and citrus are the two predominant things that you'll get with our gin to get those nice refreshing gin tonics or , you know , moving into Tom Collins or other gin cocktails that you might like , aperitivo I grew up in Italy when I was a kid so I'm very fond of the aperitivo style of things that's got 18 different botanicals in it orange , wormwood , gentian , all these sort of things .

Speaker 1 33:37

I was a very big fan of Select when I was younger . Well , in my previous career I always found that when I was out with Italian bartenders , select would be the one that was brought along with us and I've got a high level of respect for that brand . So we aspire to be like Select , which is kind of like Aperol but it's got a bit more bitter in it and , you know , a little bit more refinement if you will . But it also allows that product . That allows us to go if you mix it with tonic , you go down towards a medicano , and if you go mix it with , like lemonade or non-sparkling wine , a non-alcoholic sparkling , when you go towards aperol sort of style drinks . But at the same time I can also mix it with a gin and make a negroni . So it's actually a very functional product within our range , if you , if you will .

Speaker 1 34:26

Um , then the agave , um , obviously , um is uh , tequila , um , we were on tequila . Well , on the agave , we were looking to make sure we got those sort of green agave top note and the salinity on the nose . But then in the core of the spirit , we wanted a little bit more smoke , a little bit more of that burnt tropical note which you get with tequilas . Tequila , you know , is the hardest one , because if you take 10 tequilas , 10 blanco tequilas or 10 añejo tequilas , they all taste different , which is why the industry loves them , because they're so artisanal and authentic . So we kind of wanted to take the best from the range , which is , as I said , salinity on the nose , with the green notes , with a tropical cooked core .

Speaker 1 35:16

And then vodka is an interesting one . When we started we thought , you know , sounds a bit silly to do a non-alcoholic vodka because , you know , vodka doesn't taste of much , but well , sorry , it's supposed to taste neutral and clear and so on . So then , as we developed it , we realized that wasn't the case one , because , um , having the functional element meant that it made sense . When you drink a lot of people drink vodka um , it's to taste like the mixer that you put it with and to get alcohol into it . So for us it's the same thing . It's to taste like the mixer that you put it with and to get alcohol into it . So for us it's the same thing it's like to taste the mixer you're mixing with , but you get functionality put into it . Um , but it also has a wonderful . If you open up a gray goose , for instance , um , you'll get a minty sort of note on your nose . Uh , and we do that . You also get pepper front .

Speaker 1 36:06

And then one thing I wanted to do was to have something for people to just ping onto , which is a little bit of cereal note in the body of the structure , in the body of the liquid . So something that wouldn't overwhelm flavor , but just something you could cling onto in terms of a flavor profile . So , yeah , that's kind of the range and we like to try and keep it within those , because then there are so many fabulous products to work with , um , and we can be in the middle of that . But then we can work with , you know , amadou lucano , zero , zero . We can work with pathfinder . We can work with non-alcoholic sparklings . We can work with all these people and facilitate that and partner with them , rather than trying to be , you know , every single ingredient inside the drink . I did that sounded complicated , um from well , certainly , I'm sure the sales reps would . I'm very glad that they haven't got to carry , you know , 15 bottles or whatever it might be .

Speaker 2 37:02

So , yeah , um , I wanted to ask this , while we're on the range , about the uh , the gin , because that's got a slight um cloudiness to it yes what ? What's causing that ? I know I've been on audio , can't see it , but it's just slightly cloudy yeah yeah .

Speaker 1 37:22

So this was a , this was an impasse that we , that we came to in development , which is gin , as you . Basically gin is made from juniper oil , angelica oil and oil in water . When you take away , the alcohol is not soluble , it goes cloudy . And we absolutely went to the end of the earth , speaking to all sorts of crazy people in the States .

Speaker 1 37:49

Technology , even sort of you know , dare I say it , you know areas of physicists and all that sort of stuff to try and create the biggest nanotechnology , the best nanotechnology that we could , because it's about can we pack it in to the smallest amount ?

Speaker 1 38:05

And we thought we would be able to do it and we weren't quite yet . I'm sure we will in the future . And then we had a in to the smallest amount , and we thought we would be able to do it , and we weren't quite yet . I'm sure we will in the future . And then we had a decision to make would we have a gin which looked clear but didn't quite have enough juniper in it , or we're going to decide that you know , basically sod that we want it to work in the drink to the back like a gin does and have that juniper flavor ? And we went with the latter , and so that little bit of cloud is because we're making sure that there's enough juniper flavor in there , um , juniper distillate actually , uh , in there to , um , to really taste like a gin . So it's a conscious decision okay thank you .

Speaker 2 38:43

Oh , amazing . And I've got to ask you , hamilton , because , um , again , lots of founders I speak to that they're in that launch phase and they're

Launching with 5 drinks

Speaker 2 38:51

really excited and they talk about how much work it is and what goes into it all . You've decided to launch five SKUs at once . Are you slightly crazy ?

Speaker 1 39:03

Well , there's no doubt that I'm slightly crazy . I've been told many times . But no , I don't think so . I don't think so . I think what we want , what we wanted to be able to do , is my dream is to be able to sit down in a bar and have that cocktail menu that I love , that I love , and to be able to be offered a large amount of the same cocktails in a non-alcoholic format , just like we say , you know , when you get offered a Coca-Cola , you say would you like Coke Zero or would you like regular ? And that , to me , is the ultimate goal , because then there are 30% of people walking into bars right now who don't want alcoholic drinks . So they're basically , you know , going down to a Coca-Cola or an orange juice or something like that , and they don't feel part of that experience . And bars and restaurants put so much work into delivering that experience , even within the drinks menu . To then not be able to be part of that means that that consumer is not getting that experience .

Speaker 1 40:03

And so the ideal why we went with those five , I mean , is because of exactly that we wanted to be able for people to be able to show their menus and their full splendor to also the non-alcoholic drinker , and now just having one wouldn't probably have cut that . And originally we said three . But as we were in development , we said you know what we could do the other two as well . Why not have them all going together ? Um , yeah , it did create a lot of complexity and tasting sessions took ages , because you can't taste aperitivo on the same two hour period when you taste the gin , because your palate goes all over the place . But yeah , as I said , we bit off more than we could chew , but it's gone quite well in the end . It might be why it took three years to get here too .

Speaker 2 40:48

Well , I can imagine that . Yeah , that's definitely a challenge . You know , like I said , most people launch with one , maybe two , but going with five , I mean , that's a real commitment to your cause and I love the reasoning behind it . You know , absolutely Making our bar menus , our pub menus , something that can be applicable to all people in all situations , so that their choices aren't limited to this one dusty bottle of non-alcoholic beer in the bottom of the back of the fridge that most bar staff don't even know is there or , as is often the case , I've had , you know , I remember I've told this story before , but going to centre parks with my family a couple of years ago and being in one of their eateries and asking what the alcohol-free drinks were and being given the same choices that my kids had , and I'm like well , that's that's not gonna cut it , while my husband's sitting there having like his favourite beer .

Speaker 2 41:36

So exactly we need to make this so that that menus , bar staff , wait staff can offer people choices . Everyone can feel like they're just part of something together , no matter what's in their glass yeah , the the last .

Speaker 1 41:50

You know , up until very recently there was sort of like a divide and you know you're drinking , you're not drinking . That sort of divided you and I didn't like . I don't like that . There's so much effort that goes into making these products . Some of them are more expensive than to make spirits or beers are more expensive than to make in the beer section , um , and to just sort of be pigeonholed right from the off . It's like you know , you go in and you said , oh , um , you know I'll have that something non-alcoholic , is it ? Sometimes you're not drinking and said , no , I , I am drinking , I'm just drinking something different and I don't , I don't want that to , I don't , I don't , I don't , I don't want that to happen . I don't think that's good for the industry to keep dividing people down the future , because consumers are changing and the horrible truth for all of us always is the consumers are right in the long term .

Speaker 2 42:36

Yeah , absolutely , hamilton . This is amazing . Where can I send people ? You mentioned cocktails before and I do have your website open here , and you've

Bars serving Smiling Wolf

Speaker 2 42:46

also got a great selection of cocktails that people can make with your drinks . So where do we send people that want to get to know more about Smiling Wolf , they want to get to know more about you and they want to get their hands on a bottle or all five . Where's the best place for them to go ?

Speaker 1 43:01

um , okay , well , and you know , in terms of bars , um , and you know we've only you . We only started really in September , but if you go to a place like the River Cafe , if you go to Hakkasan , if you go to the Experimental Cocktail Club Yautja , they've all started carrying us and put us on the menus , which is awesome , and we thank them for their faith in us In terms of buying it . Also , a great place to try us is Club Soda , just off Covent Garden . They've got a great place to try us is club soda , um , just off covent garden . Um , they've got a great cocktail bar inside the store . Um , they can mix up drinks for you . The whole range is there .

Speaker 1 43:36

Uh , we'll be live with all the amethyst stores , uh , from the beginning of november , so that's just around the corner . But also , the best way to get hold of us is to go to our website , which is smilingwolfcom , and all the products are up there for next day delivery . We will also be live with Amazon in about two weeks as well . So , for those who just trust that Amazon is going to get it there on time , that's always good .

Speaker 2 44:04

So , yeah , there's places and hopefully more and more as uh , as the as the months roll on wow , you've definitely hit the ground running , because those are some fantastic listings for a , a brand new launch , and and then all those other places that we can just go and just make it easy . I think that's the most important thing with these uh , low known functional products is to make it easy for people to get hold of them and to try them , because a lot of the barrier that I hear from people is I don't know where to go , I don't know where to get them from yeah , so , and you know how to use them .

Speaker 1 44:36

That's the other thing you know . You know how to use them . If you've ever made cocktails or drinks , even if it's just like a gin tonic , all the way up to something more complex . If you know , if you've done that before , then you'll know how to use our products and uh , and so you know , don't worry about I'm not sure how to make a drink , you definitely do , just um , do it as you normally do and , as I mentioned , there are some great recipes on the website .

Speaker 2 44:59

If anyone's looking to be a bit more adventurous , they can go . Uh , you've got aperitivos .

Speaker 1 45:03

There's tom collins , your negroni recipe , a screwdriver and a porn star , martini as well yeah , well , yeah , well , yeah , if you're really ready for a night out there , then maybe start with that .

Speaker 2 45:19

Start with the expression of martini and then move on to porn star martini um , hamilton , it's been fabulous chatting to you , but before I let you go , I have one last question for you , which is one that I ask everybody that comes on the show , because I am all about spreading the uh lono love

BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 45:36

across all of lono nation . So , um , we are recording in late october , uh , but the weather is still okay . Um , imagine it's warmer than it is now , though , and you're off to a barbecue at a friend's house . Other than bottles of the fabulous smiling wolf range , what else would you be taking with you that you like to enjoy when you're deciding or choosing for that event not to drink full strength alcohol ?

Speaker 1 46:04

um , um , can I , can I say a range ? It's probably not just one .

Speaker 1 46:10

Um , yeah , you go for it uh , I , I well , I love lucky saint . I think it's a great beer . My , my wife discovered it before I did , and this is two years ago , I think that's . Um , I think it's awesome . Um , I think , um , I would probably also for from a spritz . I love lativa . I , I love , I love the taste . I think it's incredible . Packaging , the story's wonderful . Um , I haven't been able to taste silver yet from ben , but , uh , by everything that it looks like , it looks so cool , um , in a dark spirits area , so I'm excited to do that . So maybe that would come with me . Um , and then , yeah , I probably bring a little bit of water with me and you know I like drinking it out of that . That rock and roll can from Liquid Death . So , let's say , those four would be the things I would bring with me at the moment .

Speaker 2 46:59

Good choices . Can I , can I make a confession ? I didn't realize that Liquid Death was just water until a few months ago .

Speaker 1 47:07

None of us did . I thought it was ago none of us .

Speaker 2 47:08

I thought it was like , yeah , I thought it was something . At least , at the very least , I thought it was , uh , you know , like a what do you call it ? An energy drink , or something like that . Um , but I assumed that it was booze and I found out it was water . I was blown away . I was like , oh my god , this is the best branding for water I've ever seen yeah , it is mental .

Speaker 1 47:26

I'm not a water drinker and I never am , but then I find it easy to drink it out of that format . So read into that what you will , but it works and it's just cool . I don't know what else to say about it . It's just bloody cool .

Speaker 2 47:39

And silver . Yeah , I'll just mention that one because I'm sure that a lot of people might not yet have heard of it . So , uh , this is one of ben branson's creations . He so he's just released a season , which were his two bitters cocktail bitters and now he's produced season , which is going to be a selection of dark spirits made uh with , with , uh , wood infusions , uh , in this sort of futuristic lab that they set up that does all this kind of strange alchemy of making drinks , and it just sounds out of this world . Uh , I can't wait to try some same thing .

Speaker 1 48:19

I've got my pre-order and so I'll hopefully see it , hopefully to get the taste soon soon , soon , hamilton .

Speaker 2 48:25

Thank you so much for joining me . It has been a pleasure speaking to you . You've been really helpful in opening up the category and , and you know , making these drinks more accessible for us to understand what they are used for , what they do and and how they can taste and how they can be part of a a lifeless intoxicated . So thank you so much for joining me today .

Speaker 1 48:44

Thank you very much for helping me , denise , I appreciate it .