Coming up

Speaker 1 1:12

You know , what could I do that could create a little bit of intrigue and interest , but help , you know , start the mission . You know , I think there are pages in there that talk about , you know , like what is cannabis , Like what are psychedelics . You know what is the state of play in the UK , what is the state of play in the US . So I wanted to give people a starting point in which to jump off from .

Speaker 2 1:36

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Today , I'm in conversation with Mr Daniel Roundtree . We were just chatting before I pressed record . We are like digital social media ships that pass in the night . We've both been aware of each other's content for a while , and I've been looking forward to speaking to Daniel , because he has a lot of knowledge in an area that I know very , very little about , so hopefully it'll be helpful to you as well .

Speaker 2 2:04

Daniel is a man that wears many hats . He is a co-founder of Brew LDN . He's the founder of a startup company , a beer company called Big Hug Brewing . He's a fractional CMO of a biotech company , and he's also and this is what he talks a lot about on his LinkedIn a founder coach , and I quote , helping founders fall in love with their mission , which obviously I really appreciate .

Speaker 2 2:32

On top of all that , he's also the mind behind High and Dry , an agency on a mission to educate and inspire a generation of decision makers , innovators , investors , business owners and curious consumers about the dry economy and what comes next , and that is largely what we're here to talk about today . Daniel's commissioned a fascinating report with Cam about the dry economy , the high and dry economy , and I really want to dive into these ingredients that are really becoming more prominent in our drinking sphere at the moment but are still , particularly in the UK , not very well understood . So , as you can tell , this is Daniel's forte , so I'm going to stop talking now and say hello

Meeting Daniel

Speaker 2 3:21

, daniel . Thank you for joining me . How are you today , my lovely ?

Speaker 1 3:24

I'm awesome . What an amazing intro . You really have done your research , that's , I don't know . You've literally just pitched my whole life , so that's awesome , all my profile and you've just done a great job of like regaling my mission for high and dry , which is which is great , so thanks for that .

Speaker 2 3:41

Well , they're your fantastic words , my dear . I'm just reading them back out to you , but you know you've got some amazing mission statements . I do genuinely love your , your positioning . As I was saying to you before , you seem to be coming from a place of genuinely just wanting to help as many people as you can reach , and that , and that's so admirable from where I'm standing .

Speaker 1 4:04

Oh , thank you very much . And just to be clear , I am no expert , I'm just one of those curious consumers , probably a little bit further on than the curious consumers I'm trying to influence . And you know we've got a long way to go , for sure , and you know it was always for me about trying to bridge the gap between where we are today in the uk and you know what could potentially come come next as we look to other other nations and other markets that have opened up , you know , um kind of other mood altering substances and I mean I usually ask my people and I said I'd start by asking you to tell your story , but actually you've hit on a a point there which

UK / US - living Cali Sober

Speaker 1 4:38

is worth addressing , because there is a big difference , isn't there , between what we see and understand here in the UK when is where I hear a lot about it from ?

Speaker 1 4:48

but also , um , you know places closer to home who are far more open to these different types of ingredients yeah , look , I mean , you know I spent a couple of years going back and forth um to los angeles , actually lived in los angeles for just under a year and it was amazing . You know , I made the choice not to drink at the beginning of 2022 . And part of that journey I was , you know , I guess , exposed to legalized cannabis markets in Los Angeles and in New York , and you know , I was sort of my mind was opened because I didn't . I'm sort of reappraising , I guess , thc weed , whatever you want to call it , again , having you know , decided it wasn't for me during university . Going , hang on a minute , this market is is legal , it's regulated and it's um , it's being served in forms that I now find familiar , like gummies , like chocolates , like drinks , like these very sophisticated fmcg , cpg brands , um . So , look , I I was like okay , well , this there isn't , there is a potential other way and um , I uh , you know , I guess I indulged while I was , while I was there , and I I found it um beneficial to me , um , both from a kind of like moderating my mood , but also there are kind of real wellness , health , wellness benefits for cannabis in all its forms CBD , anti-ac and full spectrum . So you know it started to get me thinking , hang on a minute . You know it started to get me thinking , hang on a minute .

Speaker 1 6:36

Is there a bridge here , like between you know , kind of like full on what I'd call drinking culture in the UK , what I've been used to a whole career in it , and you know a vision of the future where you've got other mood altering substances and you know you've got this kind of , I guess , epicenter of it all in , you know , in America , los Angeles , where all these kind of burgeoning cultures are happening , and you know there's a movement there that's saying , okay , well , look , I want to abstain from drinking and other addictive substances and I want to lean into psychedelics , adaptogens , nootropics and THC as part of a wellness movement , and that's called Kaliber , like it's . It's a kind of a , a recognized um movement or way of living out there . And I was like that's that's for me , that's that's speaking to me at this time in my life . And , um , you know , when I came back to the UK I was like hang on a minute , we've got nothing of that ilk here . And you know I'm I was just a , you know , I guess a confused booze consumer , a real kind of like I used to .

Speaker 1 7:40

I'm , I'm all in . I went all in on booze and now that's not part of my life anymore . So what do I associate with ? So there's this kind of wellness movement that I believe is is the thing that's really driving my passion behind High and Dry .

Speaker 2 7:54

Amazing . I mean it's there's . There's so much there already to to unpack and a lot of different directions that that we can go in um , the . The movement over there is definitely um where I think it's it's leading from . That's where I first heard the term cali sober , uh , and it's interesting because quite often in life in general , what what they do in the States we eventually end up doing over here . So you could say it's pretty much inevitable that it was , it was going to be making its way here .

The law & the research

Speaker 2 8:25

But of course a lot of these drinks can't get to us because of certain ingredients aren't allowed . I was just editing the podcast I did with Chris and Chrissy from the World Alcohol Free Awards and they were saying that you know they had a couple of drinks that they couldn't judge because they couldn't get them imported into the UK . So I guess one of the first questions I want to put to you is where is the legality in all of this for us here in the UK ? Now , I do have a lot of people who listen to the podcast who are in the States . I'm guessing they'll have a bit of a better understanding already for their side , but for us in the UK when we're talking about CBD drinks , when we're talking about things like THC , when we're talking about micro dosing , I guess it can all sound a little bit illicit if you don't know what it is . So , so you know , are we doing something naughty if we start going down and exploring this rabbit hole ?

Speaker 1 9:53

look , it is really complicated , I'm not gonna lie . You know , and , um , you know , you know there's , you know , even in america , state by state it's it's different and you know , we could have a whole podcast on the nuances of what's going on in the states . But I I asked this question quite a lot in the uk and it's like so denise is is cannabis legal in the uk ?

Speaker 2 10:16

yes , in so , because you can get it medically , can't you ? You can't just walk down the street and get it off john , off the street corner , but you can have it prescribed to you under certain circumstances , is my understanding . Have I just made a fool of myself ?

Speaker 1 10:36

No , absolutely not . That's good . So I mean , like I always say , look again , that's complicated . You know there are the molecules within cannabis are called cannabinoids and you know the one that we know is available in the UK is called CBD and the psychoactive one is THC . You know THC is not legal in the UK . Cbd is legal in the UK within certain kind of amounts Again arbitrary in my opinion . But you know I think it's important that the FSA has some kind of legislation around it , but it's still quite arbitrary . And you know to your point . You know full spectrum cannabis is medicinally legal and we have , I believe , 30,000 medicinal cannabis patients in the UK but we have 1.5 million people using it for medicinal purposes . So it shows you that the current system for getting you know medicinal cannabis to the people that need it is not working .

Speaker 2 11:44

So those 30,000 people who are getting it uh prescribed , presumably , you know , on the nhs and then the the . The others uh are getting it from the street corner . Is that the likelihood ? That's ?

Speaker 1 11:57

that's the likelihood and again , this is quite anecdotal and it's based on based on research , um , um , but and also I I don't I could be wrong about this , I don't think it's NHS you have to pay for a private prescription . My , my father in law , went through the process . My dad's going through the process , both have fibromyalgia I think I've said that right or polymyalgia rheumatica . But you know and so do qualify it's . But it's not an easy process , um to do and it's quite expensive . So you have to pay for the consultation , you have to pay for the ongoing , um , yeah , medicine it's it's .

Speaker 2 12:34

It's funny , isn't it ? Because even the research you see , the proper research papers that you'll see in the medical journals and the NIH will say that there are positive medicinal benefits to this compound without the psychoactive substance in it . So it begs the question why it's not more widely available .

Speaker 1 13:00

Yeah , look , I mean , it is a question , I think , before long . You know , common sense has got to prevail , like it has in other markets . You know , I think we can look to the states as a kind of model , but I think , because they they've had their state by state kind of legislation and it's opened up at different rates , and if you look at when states have been gone from medicinally legal to recreationally legal , I think that's a really nice stat to look at and you can average those out . And I think it first went medicinally legal in in california in like 1970s and there's like 20 years before it went recreationally legal . But there are certain markets recently have just gone from medicinally legal to recreationally legal within a year .

Speaker 1 13:39

And the interesting stat , I think , is that in germany , for example , which is probably a market closer to home and probably one that our government is going to be looking at as a bit of a case study , rather than what's going on in the States , is that you know they went medicinally legal in 2017 and they went recreationally legal with albeit with kind of some tight restrictions in May this year and we went medicinally legal in 2018 . So if you use the same like timeframe , we would be going recreationally illegal next year . Now that's not happening . Keir Starmer's not mentioned it . It's not part of anyone's kind of like plan , but my kind of bullish prediction is that by 2030 , no , it's probably 2032 , something like that we will have a recreational cannabis market in the UK .

Speaker 2 14:30

Interesting , interesting , and it does seem that you know things are moving in that direction and one thing you know the power of the people is is is strong , and if people are wanting these things and they are finding ways to get hold of them that may not be the best way to do it and there is medical and scientific proof of the benefits , then it's only a matter of logic , I suppose , until these changes are made , yeah , no , look , I totally agree because I mean , we've , we have focused in on , on on cannabis , which is , which is probably the the most logical step .

Speaker 1 15:07

But when we talk about adaptogens and nootropics , um , you know , adaptogens are , are essentially , you know , compounds that

Adaptogens, nootropics & phsychedelic derivatives

Speaker 1 15:14

affect your body and your body's ability to deal with stress , and nootropics are , again , compounds that deal with cognitive function . Um , so , you know , caffeine , for example , is , is a nootropic . Um , and again , in the uk we have real tight kind of legislation . You know , things like kava and kratom and amanita mascara , which are kind of more like a core psychoactive . You know , um , nootropics , I guess , um , they're , they're , they're also legislated against in this country . Where in america , for example , they're a legislated against in this country where in America , for example , they're a little bit more open . And then we talk about psychedelics and other compounds , including ketamine and MDMA . I'm not saying that that's going to seep into FMCG anytime soon , but for me it's part of the same conversation , as part of a health and wellness routine . Now there are certain states in America that you know . No , sorry , mdma is not legal in any way in the States . That was going to happen in 2024 . It didn't get passed .

Speaker 1 16:20

But ketamine , for example , is , you know , for treatment-resistant depression can be prescribed . Johnson Johnson have a nasal inhaler that has . I think there was a billion dollars worth of sales last year on this one ketamine . It's not actually ketamine , it's a derivative of . You know that they vote , they come in , but it does the same thing . So you know these , they vote , they can vote , but it does the same thing , so it's . You know these things are being reappraised , rightly , so you know , for the good that they can do . You know there's , and while unfortunately for alcohol there is no , you know , therapeutic use , there's no benefit to anyone other than obviously anecdotal social benefits , et cetera . You know there are benefits , documented benefits , of all of these currently illegal compounds , substances , drugs , whatever you want to call them .

Speaker 2 17:18

Wow , I'm shocked to hear about the ketamine spray . That's not something I ever thought I would have heard has been used in any way , but I suppose it comes with that that all of these drugs that we take recreationally were initially medicinal and then they've just been abused . Um , so you're right , we've focused a lot in on on on that area . Let's take it to something that's going to really resonate with uh , low , no nation , and that is the inclusion of uh ingredients

The impact on low/no drinks & drinkers

Speaker 2 17:49

uh , into the drinks that we're using now , because because low and low , as we know , as a category , is just taking off . Okay , so we know that that's soaring .

Speaker 2 18:00

And then , within that , we have the subcategories of different types of drinks , whether you're looking at your wines or your proxies , or your beers and whatnot . And then you've got your adaptogenic drinks , your functional beverages , your nootropic beverages , and it seems to me like there are more and more and more new functional drinks coming out on a on an almost weekly basis . Uh , for those of you watching the video on youtube , I've put behind me the a few of the ones that I had around the house and they've got all sorts of ingredients in them . There are some that seem to crop up in all of them , like lion's mane , and then there are others that lend themselves more towards a term that I learned in your report , which was the psychotropic curious . So how are these ingredients making their way into our drinks and how is that impacting loaner drinks ?

Speaker 1 18:57

yeah , look , I mean , it's great to see I think we're in a second phase of moderation . The first phase was all about mimicking the taste of alcohol . Um , now it's about mimicking the whole experience of alcohol um depth of flavor , um complexity , mouthfeel and , of course , mood . You know , and you know the the amazing entrepreneurs and businesses out there are looking for for compounds that that can mimic . You know what we're used to in alcohol in many ways , but it's difficult to to kind of make a direct comparison and also the efficacy is is un , is unvalidated in many ways .

Speaker 1 19:38

Um , there's lots of peer reviewed studies about individual compounds and how they react to um to your body . But you know how , how much and what the quality is . You know it is a little bit of the wild , wild West and I do believe a lot of it is anecdotal and um , and I think that's okay . Um , if people believe that cbd is having a calming effect on them , that's absolutely fine . If althenine is really kind of relaxing them , then that's all right . You know , and I really um applaud some of the , some of the entrepreneurs and businesses that are out there at the moment really championing this , and there's a couple that I buy quite a lot like Impossibrew , for example . They have this blend that they call it about three adaptogens and nootropics . I think it's called the social blend , which you know .

Speaker 1 20:28

Again , you know , for me I'm not sure if I get an initial hit of anything , but I think over the course of two or three I definitely if I get , you know , an initial hit of anything , but I think over over the course of two or three I definitely feel something . You know , and I think it doesn't replace that kind of one drink buzz that you get from alcohol . But I'm I'm not chasing that anymore , but it is . It's definitely something in addition to just mimicking the taste of alcohol . And you've got to think , when you've got a generation and I know everyone talks about gen z kind of championing the taste of alcohol , and you've got to think , when you've got a generation and I know everyone talks about Gen Z kind of championing the kind of non-alcoholic movement , I'm not sure I agree with that .

Speaker 1 21:00

But you know , the reality is that there's a lot of people that haven't trained themselves to drink alcohol . So you've got , haven't got a . You know , I've got a whole generation of people that haven't trained themselves how to drink alcohol . Why would they want an alcohol replacement but they might want to still alter their mood and they might still want the , the kind of experience of alcohol . So the you know the packaging , the say , the mouthfeel , the complexity etc . So I think you know adaptogens and nootropics and any other psychoactive ingredient just adds to this .

Speaker 2 21:29

You know whole kind of moderation movement so how and this might be a really difficult question to answer but how mood altering are these drinks ? So if you're on video you can see behind me I've got things you know from uh , zoos is a new one , we've got some trip . Uh , smiling wolf . These are all brands that use functional ingredients , uh , everything from sort of uh lion's mane to and , interesting enough as well , you mentioned impossible a lot of these brands . I've noticed that they're keeping their ingredients list , sort of proprietary , and they're they're patenting and everything . So how mood in enhancing or altering will these drinks be ? And I and I asked from the perspective of I know that they won't make you feel drunk , but would they relax you to the point that you might think , oh , go on , then I'll just have a shot ? Or is it just a far more sedate sort of feeling ?

Speaker 1 22:29

It's really difficult to pinpoint because I think it's very subjective to the individual . Okay , I mean , I I've got , I can give you an experience . I had um with three spirits the Leibner , you know I had , I had it for the first time with , with my uh , with my wife , probably three , two three years ago two and a half years ago and there was no kind of like um one part of the night where I thought that my mood had massively increased .

Speaker 1 22:58

But we talked for probably . Well , we , you know , we normally go to bed early , we're up until midnight talking , you know , in a very kind of like , convivial manner , so like and . But then you know I've had other instances where that hasn't happened . So you know , I think it's really difficult to to kind of pinpoint a mood and in fact you know , I think we used three different brands and to kind of document their mood pre and post and use it in different situations on their own with groups of people , and you know again , again , really wild differing views . So I think it's , I think it's yet to be um validated and I think you know um , for example we mentioned impossible . They do a lot of their own research . So they ask their consumers . That's really good crm system . They ask the consumers to to kind of rate their experience on scales of one to ten or one to five , I can't remember now , and it's so . They're collecting data all of all of the time . You know so .

Speaker 1 24:22

And then centia , which is another one which is backed by professor dr nutt , you know , again , there's a little bit of science behind that , so you know , talking about gaba receptors etc . So I think you know it's it's not good enough just to say , oh , we've got some L-theanine in it . So therefore it's you're going to chill out with it . I think you know there's . It's about how much , and then the frequency in which the person takes it . And you know , because if you really want to get granular with it , you know lion's mane doesn't really take effect until you know , like taking it once a day , every day , for three to four weeks , you know so is it going to really have that ? You know effect ? But who knows what it has when it's combined with those other things , what it actually actually does . But I think , in direct , direct answer your question , you've got no danger of of of feeling , um , you know , I guess any way unable to kind of handle heavy machinery .

Speaker 2 25:14

Yeah , yeah , no risk of lack of control . It's interesting because it sounds to me like it's still very much like a lot of our industry , but this sector particularly is very much in its infancy and there's a lot of research that needs to continue to take place . I mean , to put everyone's mind at ease all the ingredients used in the drink will be food safe . You know these are products produced for human consumption , so they are completely safe to consume . But exactly how they're going to work , I guess , brings me to my second observation , which is that it can be a little bit like alcohol , in the sense that it affects different bodies in different ways at different times .

Speaker 2 25:59

You know , if you're a , my husband's six foot four and you know , goes to the gym all the time , so things don't affect him the way that they affect me , because I do not go to the gym all the time . And you know , if you've got somebody who's very slight and very petite , you know they might be biologically more impacted by something . And also the frequency , as you mentioned , with which you're taking something . And I suppose it's true , right , because you look at any supplement , for example , and a lot of these ingredients are akin to supplements that you might get at Holland and barrett or something . Um , it's not . Take this one time and you know your skin will clear up . Or take this one morning and your cognitive function will be improved . It's take one of these every day with a meal until you start to see the benefits .

Speaker 1 26:49

Yeah , it's fascinating I think you know it's also the , the quality of like , any kind of like , when we get really deep into you know any , any product which is of a premium nature , understanding where the kind of raw materials come from , how they're harvested , you know um , and the kind of the amount of the psychoactive , because even within lion's mane there are bits of the lion's mane , like the fruiting body . I can't remember exactly . I think they're lipo somethings . They're the actual things that that that kind of create um . I think they are the block or or kind of um inhibit serotonin receptors . I can't remember which . You see , I'm , I'm curious , I'm not an expert yes , absolutely , absolutely .

Speaker 2 27:35

You're psychotropic , curious um it's a great term , uh .

Speaker 2 27:39

You mentioned professor david nutt and obviously he's one of the the leaders of this sort of uh subcategory , isn't he with his ?

Speaker 2 27:45

And he's just brought out , or they've just brought out , uh , a third skew which is their center gold um , but interestingly that you know their , their positioning has always been that it is designed to replicate that to drink feeling , because , uh , they have , through their research , they've identified that that's the sweet spot for when you're , when you're out with your friends , when you're on drink number two and you're happy and you're merry and it's just before you start making bad choices , um , which I'm fascinated to know .

Speaker 2 28:20

You know , be to have been part of that research uh lab and how they came to to that conclusion , um , but that's that whole gaba receptor uh piece . That seems to be the thing that everybody sort of grabs hold of and is like let's replicate that two drink feeling , which I suppose , if you're choosing not to drink for no other reason than perhaps your health , or you just don't like it anymore , as you and I were both saying before , it just doesn't serve us anymore , then there's absolutely no concern there . And if you're somebody who feels that their relationship with alcohol is damaging in any way , shape or form , then I guess my duty of care to anyone listening would be to always , if you're taking something to rectify that kind of situation , is to seek advice beforehand , just as you would if you were taking supplements . You go and speak to your doctor beforehand or somebody a professional who knows more about them , to make sure that you are doing the best thing for yourself .

Speaker 1 29:20

Absolutely and , as you quite rightly alluded to , everyone is different and unfortunately , you know . Alcohol in the wrong hands , you know can be deadly .

Speaker 2 29:29

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . Let's take it back a little bit . You , speaking about your lovely evening with your wife , reminded me that I did say to you that we would start off the chat normally by talking about your origin story , as it were . But , as I knew would happen when I spoke

Daniel's story

Speaker 2 29:46

to you , there'd be so many different tangents that we could go in to where you are comfortable . Starting how , because you've had such a varied career and worn many hats , how have you got to the point where you're now opening high and dry and using that to to really positively influence the future of our industry ?

Speaker 1 30:10

yeah , thank you for asking . Um , so yeah , I guess I've had . Well , I have had a . Not , I have had a two decade career in the booze industry , started back in 2004 , 2003 , 2004, . Working for Bacardi , did a couple of years there and then went on a being Bacardi course and realised that I didn't want to be part of a corporate structure . And I think I was driving away from Southampton in my Audi A4 , feeling a bit like Alan Partridge going this isn't , this isn't for me . So I then I was currently at that point I was working on Grey Goose and I awarded my then not created agency a job , as you know , as as the kind of below the line agency for a small project , and that was me off .

Speaker 1 30:57

And then I went on my own founder-led journey with an agency and a co-founder for 13 years and we had a great time growing a team from the two of us to 45 people and we only worked with booze brands . So we had a seven-year relationship with ABI , we worked with Diageo , we worked with Pernod Ricard , with Carlsberg , with Heineken , with anyone within the booze industry of any merit at the time . We were specialists in on trade activation and we did experience and any kind of consumer touch point around that . And then we sold that business to Matthew Clark in 2017 and and then went on a journey of integrating into their business and so got to know all the wholesale side of things , um , and then they then got acquired and there was some , some , some messy business there between conviviality and CNC . So I ended up , you know , um , you know , being owned by a family-owned company then and as an aim listed market company , and then um , a london stock market owned company in terms of cnc , um , but also during that time I set up , you know , craft beer rising which has morphed into brew london . I was founding partner of brew broker and , um , I went all in on booze , denise , I did everything and even in 2010 , me and my ex-wife , we took on a punch lease the old Nun's Head in Nunhead near Peckham , and we had that pub for five years and my daughter was actually born in that pub in 2010 , upstairs two o'clock on a Saturday afternoon on a Saturday afternoon , so we had to turn the music up . So I say I went all in on booze and after Elastic , which was my agency's name , helped set up a venture fund with someone I'd known in the booze industry .

Speaker 1 32:45

For a long time , dan Gasper Went out to the States , raised some family office money , invested in the drinks of the future , and then something happened in in 2022 , I , I , I decided to , to stop drinking and and , as we alluded to , you know , there's there's two main reasons for that . The main one is that um , I , um , it's , it stopped serving me and I am just a far better human without it , if I'm , if I'm honest , but that's a personal choice . The second reason is I had , you know , I lived for a decade with my ex-wife who was an alcoholic and unfortunately , she passed away at the end of 2022 from decompensated liver disease and cirrhosis . So , you know , you know I have , in one hand , I've got a very positive relationship with alcohol because it's , you know , it's given me so much , but , on the other hand , you know it's it's also , you know , taken my , my , my daughter's mother , you know . So it's , it's , it's , it's it's really important for me and I don't say that to shock , it's just part of my story and you , you know , and I think I now find myself in this position to to do , to do something for the good of the industry . I would be naive to just go like all drinking is bad because we've got a societal change to come , come through .

Speaker 1 34:09

And I guess we touched upon my time in America and you know kind kind of my exposure to what was going on out there . And when my time came to an end in America I was like , well , how can I take what I know or what I've seen in the States , you know , and kind of add that to my experience in the booze industry and trying to create a positive change and come back to the UK and try and create a message that is more positive ? And I guess that led me to create High and Dry , which is an agency . It's not my first rodeo with an agency and collaboration studio , so let me explain a little bit about that because

Creating High & Dry

Speaker 1 34:50

you know I think it's a long game , right , there's going to be a while before we've got , you know , psychedelics , you know , widely available and cannabis widely available .

Speaker 1 34:59

But I'm really keen on taking , you know , taking consumers on a journey from where we are now to where we might be to try and change some of the stereotypes wrapped up around cannabis and psychedelics etc . And you know I initially want work with , with businesses that want to prepare themselves for that inevitable change , um . And then the collaboration studio piece is is is me working with you know innovators , businesses , um , to create products , to create things that fit into this , into this space . So , you know , I've I've come back with a view that I needed to create some relevance and some leverage in the market and that's why I did the report with Cam , with some great friends , katie Moses , Katie Jenkins and Blake you know great team love them , and so they really helped me , you know , put that out there and gave me a little bit of a platform . And , you know , I guess now is the next stage of that . I've , you know , really want to work with you know businesses to try and change the landscape which will ultimately lead to consumer behavior change .

Speaker 2 36:09

And so when you say work with businesses , is that a broad spectrum of businesses or are you focusing on a specific niche ?

Speaker 1 36:18

Not really . No , I'm selling foresights . So foresights are kind of you know , visions of the future . So like , how can we take a read about what's going to be happening , you know , five years down the line ? You know five years down the line , and how can I then take that you know , that foresight and bring it into today's business and help them prepare better for the future ?

Speaker 2 36:42

OK , and in your sort of vast experience and with what you're doing now , I suppose that that naturally leads me to ask you about sort of big alcohol , because you've obviously got a lot of experience working with

"Big alcohol"

Speaker 2 36:56

some of these major , major brands and some of them are moving now into the low no space to mixed reception , shall we say , from some of the industry None of them I've seen that I'm aware of , and please correct me if I'm wrong into the more functional side of things . Do you think that that's a move that we might see from some of the larger producers that you were talking of , yourageos , your ab and bevs , um , or is it just a step too far for them at the moment ?

Speaker 1 37:35

so it's a really good question . I mean , there's always this kind of a big elk kind of like independent debate and you know I always look at it . It's like they're part of the ecosystem . We really need them . You know they provide growth capital . They provide , you know , the exits . You know .

Speaker 1 37:49

You know , ultimately , running a non-boos or a boos business , it's not very economical unless you've got a portfolio . So you can only get it so far on your own . So it's , it's interesting . Look , you know , I don't . It's an easy win for Big Al to go well , hey , here's Gordon's and here's Captain Morgan's , let's just stick a zero on it and roll with it . You know that's easy because consumers get it . So , yeah , look , I think of course they're looking at it .

Speaker 1 38:17

You know , if you look at my report , that you know most of the big booze businesses have a play or an investment or a joint venture in cannabis somewhere . Play or an investment or a joint venture in cannabis somewhere . Okay , so , um , you know , and and and I know for a fact that you know that there are moves as well in in the functional space um , you know , in terms of , um , some initial , you know growth capital investments from , you know , from some big , big alc businesses . So , look , it's inevitable , but I think , like like many people , they just don't quite know how big it's going to be and they don't quite know , um , you know , if the legislation is going to change or when it's going to change . And you know , I think you know people , some , some of the businesses have made plays already .

Speaker 1 38:58

You know , for example , in the states , um , lagunitas , which is a heineken owned brewery , have a thc seltzer , paps blue ribbon , for example , have a THC seltzer , you know . So , um , and I know , I know , lagunitas isn't , yeah , yes , it is Heineken owned , but they do operate under their own kind of jurisdiction in the states . So you know , again , I think they're looking for as much feedback and data as they possibly can in order to make the most kind of calculated moves , because really , what we've , what we've got here , like on a macro level , is people drinking less , but they're still wanting some of the experiences that booze , um was , you know , was was creating . So you know , it's inevitable . I think that this is going to now come on the agendas of , of m&a . Uh , for the next , yeah , for the foreseeable , I believe I've got your , your report .

Speaker 2 39:47

If you see me looking off to the side , I'm just opening up your report as we're speaking . I've been very grateful to have had a chance to have a look through it , because there are some huge sort of brand names that you've got in there who have got investment in some way , shape or form in some sort of functional business or a lot seem to be involved in research which suggests that there is going to be quite a an upsurge in a few years of things coming our way . Uh , the report is absolutely uh fascinating . It's it's very thorough . It's what inspired you to to

The High & Dry report

Speaker 2 40:25

put it together , because this isn't just like a a quick bit of homework that you had to turn in .

Speaker 1 40:32

No , no , thank you , it was . You know what . What could I do ? That ? Could you know , create a little bit of intrigue and interest , but help , you know , start the mission . You know , because I think you know there are pages in there that talk about , you know , like what is cannabis ? Like what are psychedelics ? You know what is the state of play in the uk , what is the state of play in the us .

Speaker 1 40:55

So I wanted to give people a starting point in which to jump , jump off from um . And you know , off the back of this , I have a newsletter which I , I um , publish once a month . Again , I'm just starting to drip feed certain bits of information . More often than not , it's when I find it out and I think it's interesting , then I'll pass it down . But yeah , that was the main reason really was to try and create a little bit of relevance and leverage . You know , to say , look , I'm putting my hand up , to say , look , this might be a long game , but I'm here for for the long game . I think that you know this is , this is going to be part of the future , um , and I want , I want to help in any way I can . So , um , yeah , this was the , the first kind of like step in that direction really .

Speaker 2 41:40

Absolutely . I can see exactly where you're coming from and you know it does cover , uh , the state of the nation as you put it in there , in the UK , the US , you're looking at Germany . It looks at motivations and occasions where people are using or exploring a psychotropic , curious lifestyle . Obviously , some stats about alcohol being on the decline , but people still looking for , as you say . Looking for , as you say , um , those things that they can use to help recreate some of what they miss from their drinking experiences without the extra side effects that nobody misses when they choose to live a life less intoxicated . Um , if people want to get hold of the report , um , where can they go and find a copy , please , daniel ?

Speaker 1 42:27

yes , um on my website , which is wwwhighanddrylive okay , fantastic um , and I highly recommend this .

Speaker 2 42:36

It's well worth a read . It was very uh , enlightening um . Not to give away too much , but you know there's a bit about market overview where you talk about the global um markets for cannabis , for psychedelics , for CBD and for functional mushrooms and just to put that one out there , it's a 24.4 billion pound market for functional mushrooms . That's just staggering . They're mushrooms . I was going for a walk just now in the park . They're growing out the trees . Go for a walk the other , uh , this just now in the park they're growing out the trees .

Speaker 1 43:10

No , like , I mean , mushrooms is a whole other topic , for sure , but I mean , yeah , I do genuinely believe the functional mushrooms are starting to come into the consciousness of consumers now really do help . You know , you know I take lion's mane every morning . Um , I , I do believe it helps with cognitive function and that's not a placebo . I think it genuinely does help . Um , you know , and we also surveyed um over a thousand people in the uk and in the us . So you know , this is this is showing genuine consumer behaviors and also the desire for a change to happen in the uk specifically . And also it also alludes to , you know what happens to uh consumers specifically in the states , because obviously it's legalized over there when other mood altering substances are introduced . What happens to their alcohol consumption habits , which are really interesting yeah , absolutely well worth a read .

Speaker 2 44:03

Guys , I will link to that uh below and when they go to your website , would they also be able to uh sign up for your newsletter there as well ?

Speaker 1 44:11

That's also on there as well ? Yeah , and if there's , you know , it's probably worth mentioning that . You know . The next step for me , if there are any businesses out there that are interested

Working with Daniel

Speaker 1 44:21

or intrigued is you know , I will come in and do a deep dive , you know a discussion around what you want to achieve with your business in the future and then apply some of the things that I think are going to come down the pipe and work out how we can better prepare you for what's coming .

Speaker 2 44:40

Excellent , excellent . I'll make sure that everyone can get hold of you every which way , and I'd also say , while you're listening is to , if you're a LinkedIn user is to follow Daniel on LinkedIn , because you share a lot of knowledge bombs on there and a lot of insight , but also a lot of just yourself and you know you're a very personable human being , which I think is I didn't know existed on LinkedIn . I always thought it was just a horrible corporate place where people just talked about stocks and shares , but actually it's real people talking about the projects they're working on and the life that they're trying to build . So well worth a follow .

Speaker 1 45:15

I appreciate that , denise , you're very welcome . Yeah , one thing I'm exploring for 2025 is is is our safaris , so taking

On safari

Speaker 1 45:25

groups of interested businesses , curious consumers out to some of these markets to experience for themselves firsthand what the world of retail and on-premise and on-trade is like in markets such as Los Angeles , maybe Denver , colorado , maybe Portland in Oregon , maybe to a city in Germany . But yeah , I'm just putting it out there . If anyone is interested in accompanying me on a safari to one of these markets cities , then please get in contact .

Speaker 2 46:01

That sounds fascinating , fascinating . So I'm envisaging a sort of uh , a guided tour , um , but more on a conversational level , where you're you're introducing people to these spaces and and the things that they can find in them and how they can use them . Is that about right ?

Speaker 1 46:18

yeah , just opening people up to the possibility is . What I would do is like look , this is what's happening . This is where , um , this is where consumers are currently spending their money in this market . When it's open , you know how does that plant a seed for what could happen with your business at home fantastic .

Speaker 2 46:35

I think that sounds like a a wonderful idea . Um , I will make sure that people can get in touch with you to to raise their hand if there's something that they would like to explore further .

Speaker 2 46:46

That was my hand raised as well . Fantastic , Before I let you go and I round up now , I'm going to put this question to you in two different ways . So , at the end of every conversation I have my now famous possibly just in my own head , but still barbecue question

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 47:09

, where I always ask you to extend your imagination to it being a nice hot , sunny day and you're off to a barbecue at a mate's house , and what low , low or light drinks that you would bring with you to enjoy ? Now I'm going to put this in two ways for you . You can either go with just some functional drinks that are your go-tos or , if you want , to give us a few functional drinks that people could , you know , take a look at , plus any other low or no drinks that you like . So the floor is yours . What's on your drinking list ? Well , Jo , the thing that brings to . So the floor is yours . What's on your , your drinking ?

Speaker 1 47:47

list . Well , the thing that brings to mind straight away is is a drink , a drink that probably no one's had before , which is this um , it's mother root and and and sparkling dope . Now you were talking about um . You know that one of the judges of the non-alc um you know awards couldn't judge certain out because they couldn't get them through customs . Now I connected with the chap on linkedin and he he was able to get something through customs , so that arrived at my doorstep . Um , so that's dope soda and that's like a , a , um , a hard what ? No , it's not hard , it's a seltzer . So it's just like flavor , pineapple flavored water .

Speaker 1 48:27

So , um , that was a um 50 mil shot of um mother root and dope soda okay that would pineapple dope soda , which , um , you know , I I bet I'm the first one to do that , so that would be my drink . Um , and if and if that wasn't available , I'd have an impossibly for sure .

Speaker 2 48:45

Yeah , yeah , fantastic , fantastic choices , and I think that this is such an open area . You know this is we've barely scratched the surface . You know , I really could talk to you for hours about all of this . I've got so many more questions but that would be rude to your time so I won't do that . But I think that there's just so much we can explore here and , you know , I'd encourage low-no nation to do some of their own research , to go and have a look at these drinks .

Speaker 2 49:16

You know some of these things , some of the ones that you can see behind me , you can go they're in my local co-op , you know and go down and you can grab yourself a trip or a good raise . Others you might need to go uh to . You know online low and low drink specialists . Others you might need to buy direct from their website , um , but do your research and check out the ingredients that are in there and what they can uh provide you with um , because I think if we can find things that can add to our lives whilst not taking anything away , then that deserves some sort of exploration . Daniel , thank you so much for joining me today . It has been a pleasure talking to you and I'd love to keep the possibility open that you'll come back and talk to me in a year or so and we'll sort of see how things are moving on .

Speaker 1 50:02

Yeah , I'd love to Denise . Thank you very much .