Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

It's not a process that I wanted to follow , because I've made something natural and with a flavor , then I'm going to spend time stripping out that flavor to have , in essence , a bland liquid , and then I'm going to spend time adding ingredients and flavorings and everything else to it to give it structure . Well , we wanted to say no , no , no , we're not doing that . We want to actually allow our customers to enjoy something that's come from a vineyard , that has come from a particular vintage , that actually has not produced alcohol , to then be stripped out because , fundamentally , it's still had alcohol in it .

Speaker 2 1:45

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Speaker 2 2:31

Now back to this week's conversation . Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Today I am having a chat with Paul Beavis . He is the CEO of Wild Idol , a premium alcohol-free sparkling wine that is vegan and gluten-free , hailed by respected institutes , from my friends over at the World Alcohol-Free Awards to premium retailers such as Harrods and Selfridges , wild Idol is , and I quote , made to be special .

Speaker 1 3:03

And out of the 95 sommeliers I think we tasted in the first six months , 85 , 86 are still working with us today .

Speaker 2 3:11

I'm obviously keen to dive into the brand with Paul today , and a bit of his background as well , and also to pick his and a bit of his background as well , and also to pick his brain on some of his thoughts about premiumization in the category and where he sees the loaner wine market moving . So , without further ado , hello , paul , welcome and thank you for joining me today .

Speaker 1 3:29

Hi , denise , thank you for having me . It's a real pleasure , it's a delight .

Speaker 2 3:33

Looking forward to meeting you , thank you thank you , oh lovely , it's lovely to have you here , and I must let you know , um , that I have a really hard job in my life , um , and in front of me I have a glass of your white and a glass of your rose oh my goodness , your day is made .

Speaker 1 3:53

You can have a good day my day is made .

Speaker 2 3:55

It's wonderful that I do this job because I come from a hospitality background , so I've done tastings at all times of the day . But it's nice to know now that I could do a tasting at one o'clock in the afternoon and still have the rest of my day that's brilliant , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 4:07

it's perfect . That's perfect . One of the many benefits of wild ival . So yes , absolutely

Paul's story

Speaker 1 4:14

um .

Speaker 2 4:14

So enough about . I like to start these conversations by finding out a little bit about my guest and the journey that led you to where you are . So you are now the CEO of Wild Idol , if I've got that correct Correct , but you've had quite a varied background , so start where you're comfortable to start . What was the journey that led you to be part of Wild Idol now ?

Speaker 1 4:38

Well , so .

Speaker 1 4:39

I can go back quite a long time because I'm getting on and actually I always like to sort of say I started off as a failed professional golfer , right ? So that's where it all started from , and when I was very young I wanted to play golf for a living and , much to my parents' frustration , they sent me off to South Africa and I didn't last very long because I ran out of money and basically was living off bags of crisps . I came back to the UK and then the options were try and become an engineer , which quite honestly , it wasn't going to be much fun . Or I got sent to chef school for just over two and a half years and it was actually at chef school which I sort of relate to being . I'd never been in the army but I felt like it was like being in the army . I had an outrageously hard head chef in those days who pretty much ruled things with an iron fist . But that was a brilliant time for me to understand flavor and understand complexities and really , you know , with an outrageously naive palate , learn that you know structure and flavor can come from ingredients and what you're looking for and authenticity .

Speaker 1 5:53

And it was that point that I studied wine at night school for quite a long time . So I subsequently have been in the wine industry for uh sort of best part of 30 years before I came to Wild Idol um with with a superb highlight in my career was 20 years with an amazing one of the oldest champagne houses in the world , and certainly for the last 10 years I had the privilege , ultimately , of running this family-run global business in all markets outside of France . Really , so to say that I became passionate about bubbles , passionate about source , terroir , nature is probably an understatement , because we're blessed with what we have in the sense of what varietals that you can use in champagne , um , but also the authenticity of it , and and you know I'm a massive believer and you have to be authentic about what's in the bottle as well as what's on the label , of course . So I built a whole campaign back in those days about bringing a non-malolactic story to life in the champagne world , and I can go on about that for hours , but I certainly don't want to bore you .

Speaker 1 7:09

And then I actually went to Canada I think I was probably 48 at the time and I took a complete career change and went to work on the west coast of Canada in a place called the Okanagan Valley , which is sort of like Disneyland for naturalists , because it is the most beautiful place in the world . It's surrounded by a mountain range , you can ski in the winter , it's 110 in the summer , with the freshwater lake , and the topography of the valley and the vineyards that I was privileged to experience and work with was just amazing , and most people would think that Canada was ice wine etc . But it was making some of these most amazing wines . From that time there I learned a lot more about purity of production , authenticity , having effectively sort of four or five different microclimates at any point in time , more impact that would have on flavor and height of vineyards , et cetera . But the truth is I was over there , I got caught there with lockdown and I'm blessed to have two children who I can see for a year because I was stuck in Canada . It was one of those sort of perfect storms . I think everybody's got a story around a lockdown .

Speaker 1 8:24

But I was asked to then come back to the UK and somebody said to me look , you know , we have a vision , we have a dream . We would love to produce the world's best naturally , naturally alcohol-free sparkling . And I must confess there was a little bit of trepidation . When I started I was thinking , goodness me , that's interesting because my previous experience in alcohol-free had been probably , like a lot of people's , not the best . But I once remember reading this book called blue ocean strategy , which all sounds very formal and sort of very grown up , and it probably was at the time . But one thing I'd never forget taking from that book was that for blue oceans to exist , you have to get out of what they call the red ocean , which is swimming with sharks and everybody eating each other , and you have to have a paradigm shift in your mindset , your thinking , ultimately having a vision of trying to create something that's never been done

Being the best in the world

Speaker 1 9:24

. And I just thought well , if we're going to do this , if I'm going to do this , it has to be the best in the world .

Speaker 1 9:30

It just has to be the brand or the product initially , before it even became a brand , that I would be proud to go and present to people and I know this probably sounds a little bit egotistical , but I don't mean it . You know I'd had 30 years in the industry with a one hopes and unblemished reputation , and then , all of a sudden , I'm coming to the trade 30 years later saying , well , look , I'm not in champagne anymore . I've created this alcohol-free brand and an amazing product which I would love to share with you , and I think I had quite a few friends who went look , paul , we like you . That helps , come on , in , come and taste . You're probably not going to like it , but we'll just do you a favor and make you feel good . Um , and and out of the 95 sommeliers I think we tasted in the first six months , 85 86 are still working with us today , and that was , you know , you hear a lot of great stories , um , about , like the innocence guys who created the , you know , two bins and people tasting . Should we create a company and leave our jobs or not ?

Speaker 1 10:39

It felt a little bit like that , actually , because , you know , sort of talking to some of the most reputable people in the UK industry about hour three and their perception at that time was well , you know , a majority of it's been pretty poorly de-alkalized , it's full of sugar , it's full of chemicals . So you know , know , yours truly was then pitching in with something that had never been seen before , um , and and to be briefly open with you , denise you . One has to bear in mind that my , my own ego is like being knocked out the window . You know , because I was running this brilliant champagne business globally where you had lots of amazing people to work with . Next thing , you know , it's me myself and I I've been blessed with some amazing marketing people who I I'm so grateful for . Um , but you're out there on your own , you're doing it yourself . You know you're doing stuff that you hadn't done for probably best part of 25 years .

Speaker 1 11:29

Yeah , um , and and and , since that sort of well , two and a half years ago now , that journey has been a continuum of building and storytelling and trying to make sure that we have the best product and the best vintage that we can rely on . The most natural story , because I think one has to be very mindful of smoke and mirrors . I think one has to be very mindful of smoke and mirrors and I , for one , am very much about look , you know , you might not like the taste , potentially , but you can't argue with the story because we are telling you what we're doing , we're telling you how we're making it . We scoured nine or ten different countries to find the best natural varietal , different countries to find the best natural varietal venos , wine , grape varietal that we could express and bring to life without manufacturing , without playing with it , without tinkering , um , and , and it all sort of comes back to the logic around gravity fed wineries . You know , the most natural way is best way to make wine is in five steps and through a natural gravity fed winery .

Speaker 1 12:38

And you know , we looked at California , we looked at Spain , we looked at France , we looked at Italy , germany , and , and , and actually in those days , you know , when we started , it was the Rheinhessen that we , we , we completely were blown away by , because you know they , and I think what we're trying to do and what we did , I think , hopefully end up doing , is creating something where we would allow the natural expression of that fruit Muller-Turgau grape , for example , in our white and in our rosé , to express itself , but without manipulating it .

Speaker 1 13:21

And it's such an incredible , you know , it's like a rainbow of flavors that come out of a ? Um , a mullet turgout grape , and it's so exciting , um , whereas traditionally you would say , well , we need chardonnay , because everybody knows chardonnay and there's nothing wrong with that . But sometimes chardonnay , you know , unless it's gone through different factors and oak aging and stainless steel , or chips , or concrete eggs as they're called , you have to sort of manipulate the flavors to come out where our vision was always about what's the purity of that flavor that will express that vintage . And it's even saying to the trade oh look , we've got a single vintage alcohol-free . I mean they'd be like , well , that's an oxymoron , how'd you do that ? You say well because we're not taking grapes from every year , we're not trying to pull them together and we really wanted to express that sort of authenticity in the flavor profile .

Speaker 1 14:21

So it's been a really amazing journey and continues to be that , you know , denise , because each market's I I have a sort of view and I I'm obviously born and bred in the uk , but I think we're quite cynical sometimes in this country , and it's not a negative thing , it's just kind of where we've come from , um , and , and that's not a , as I say , a bad thing . But you know we don't always trust new things that come into the market . We sort of want to try and get to the bottom of it peel back the layers and understand what it's made of .

Speaker 1 14:53

But I also think that's been something that has been synonymous with luxury for probably the last 10 , 20 years . It's explain luxury to me . What does it mean and why do I believe in in that story ? Um , what , what is ? Why is it that I don't know 10 000 stitches are in every ermez tie , for example ? You know , why do I know that stuff ? I don't really know and I hope that's right , but it's that little bit of info about that .

Speaker 1 15:20

That really helps , I think , explain your story . It gives credibility . Ultimately , um , and and you know you , you have to be transparent with people , because I think that's the only the only way . So , yeah , the vision with wild I was to do that is to allow it to be fully expressive , and if that means a vintage from 23 to 24 might be slightly different , well , that's okay , because you're not's okay because you're not trying to make a consistent drink .

Speaker 1 15:50

There's certain major drinks brands that do that , often served in cans , that do that , and they follow a formula . Well , with respect , our formula is what nature gives us . If nature's going to give us more sunshine , more ripeness , do we need to pick the grapes slightly earlier ? If there's more acidity , because a bit more rain is slightly colder , do we need to delay picking up the grapes ? When do we bottle ? I mean , these are all things that you know I sort of lived and breathed on a daily basis for 20 , 25 years , and then you're bringing it to something completely new and genuinely in an alcohol-free space , which you know , it's a paradigm shift , isn't it ? It's sort of . You know I'm going to tell you that the market's at a very low level right now and there's no disrespect to those brands .

Speaker 1 17:09

They've done an amazing job to get people into alcohol-free , but then Wild Island is going to come in maybe three times that price . So you know , that was a bit of a hill to climb , um , but but . But all those things have actually enabled us to to be really consistent with how we follow through with wild idol and its purity , taste and authentic story . Ultimately , um , there you go . That was a very quick , so that's my career . Sorry to be probably gone completely off piece there , haven't I . But , as you know , no , no , I mean , you've got

Naturally alcohol-free

Speaker 1 17:42

some amazing points .

Speaker 2 17:43

They're amazing . There's a couple of things that you mentioned that I want to pick up on . One is a term that you've stressed , uh , in your language , using different words , throughout your your story there um , but you first stressed it when you , when you said naturally , alcohol free yes , and you talk about , um , you know , tinkering with it very , very little . For those who are listening , could you explain what you mean by naturally alcohol free and how ?

Speaker 1 18:07

that makes wild idol different to other alcohol free sparkling wines absolutely um , so you , you know there's two , in essence , two ways of doing alcohol pro free . Nine out of ten times , people in our space , in the wine space , or sparkling , will ferment it , so they will make it and then they will allow alcohol to exist . Um , and then what they will do is go through a a , in essence , chemical based process to strip out the alcohol , to pull out the alcohol , either by heating it up and allowing alcohol to evaporate , or what they call reverse osmosis , which which , in my vision , everybody has to stand for , something you have to stand for something you fundamentally believe in . In my view , it's not a process that I wanted to follow , because I've made something natural and with a flavor . Then I'm going to spend time stripping out that flavor to have , in essence , a bland liquid , and then I'm going to spend time adding ingredients and flavorings and everything else to it to give it structure .

Speaker 1 19:16

Well , we wanted to say no , to say no , no , we're not doing that . We want to actually allow our customers to enjoy something that's come from a vineyard , that has come from a particular vintage that actually has not produced alcohol , to then be stripped out because , fundamentally , it still had alcohol in it . Now , you know , nobody can say that we've ever had alcohol in our , in our brand , because we haven't . It's 0.03 . I mean , there's more alcohol in a banana skin . Um , which ? Which ? And and I think you just have to you have to make a real decision . At some point you hit a crossroads and say , okay , do we go down this route because it's probably safer easier .

Speaker 1 19:56

Well , not safer easier , and people would understand it or do we really be bold and fundamentally believe in producing naturally alcohol-free ? Because if something's had alcohol in it still had it in . Right , it's still been there , it's been part of the dna of that that liquid ? Ultimately , um , and as we're now starting to see , sort of globally de-alkalization is , yes , of course it's improving . The technical capabilities are improving . That's fine , you know , that's great . But it's the word technical , it's the word process , it's the word structured and manipulated in a , in a sort of way in which you're trying to create a flavor where we would love to be able to say to people actually , that's what miller turgal tasted like in 2023 and that's what you're getting .

Speaker 1 20:47

And then the way in which we enable the bubble to come to life is it's really important in anything sparkling to have a really elegant , sophisticated bubble , and it's what we classify as the . To have a really elegant , sophisticated bubble and it's what we classify as the effervescence of the glass or effervescence of the bottle . And to me , we have just done about 5.4 bar of pressure . Champagne can range between 4 and 9 . But nearly all de-alkalized products can get to about 3 bar of pressure , maybe 3.1.2 . Now I'm sure in the year to come that's going to change , but there's nothing worse than havinga sparkling glass in a beautiful flu , champagne flu and then an hour the bubble's gone right . The bubble's gone flat , because then it's just okay . Well , that's not nice . So that sort of soft , elegant bubble is something that we perfected .

Speaker 1 21:40

That took quite a long time to me , to be honest , but that is one of the benefits of being naturally alcohol-free at the same time , because that gives the structure . It gives the customer any of us drinking it the ability to still get this lovely . It's like petit lance , I mean that lovely French word get this lovely . It's like pétillance , I mean that lovely French word , pétillance . It's like it gets your palate ready . It sort of awakens your palate and then not confecting it and not adding loads of sugar and not adding things to it to try and craft the flavor .

Speaker 1 22:11

I mean that's why we still work with one of the best English winemakers and we work with those guys every vintage , because you know they're making wine and , although I might think that I could do this all on my own , nobody could do it on their own . You need a great , you know good people around you and it's always a really healthy debate , um , and also you're producing something that , as I said , nature has given us , and then we're trying to actually enhance and perfect . But it's like sharpening a pencil to some extent , you know , you can only get a little bit of fraction sharper , and it's not a paradigm shift anymore in that sense , and that's something that we've just noticed . For the first time ever , we're just making magnum bottles of our rosé and our white uh , which has taken three years to do , um , and and I mean there's a whole , probably podcast on startup strategy here , but you know which is I think the strategy is just get on with it .

Speaker 1 23:11

You know that sort of thing , but you know you start a company where there's no glass in the world , there's no cardboard , the corks have run out , there's , you know , foils , I mean you name it . You know you sort of go through these things , um , but , but sorry , yes , to come back to a point , yeah , naturally alcohol free , for me is such a difference . And having something that's had alcohol then stripped out , which I'm just not a fan of , I I don't , I don't personally see it , because I think you're , then you , you're crafting something , you're it's a , it's a , it's a process where we would love to say nature's given us this . Now , how do we bring this natural flavor out in the most authentic way , without manipulation ? Um , and , yeah , that's then . That's why there's sometimes a little variance . You know , every vintage can be slightly different . It could be slightly drier , um , just just purely because we picked the grapes a little bit earlier , for example . So , yes , sorry , and what does that ?

Speaker 2 24:07

do to sort of your , your , your production , uh , processes , because I I imagine

Production volatility

Speaker 2 24:13

that you know when you're doing , when you're de-alcoholizing and I speak purely from a position of someone who just listens to what people like you say but you know when you're de-alcoholizing you have a lot , perhaps a lot more control , if that might be the right word , in that you are setting up systems and processes that the liquid needs to follow . When you're taking a much more natural approach , that must present a lot of unique challenges in creating something that can really satisfy what it is that people are looking for .

Speaker 1 24:47

Yeah , totally . Look . I mean you know there's volatility , right . I mean you know , gosh , if it got too warm or something happened , then it did for men , I mean game over . If it got too warm or something happened , then it dipped for men , I mean game over . There is a degree of volatility in it , but I think that plays to why we did it . You know , if it was that easy , everybody would do it . I mean , we don't like taking on small challenges , denise , you know it was sort of yeah , I don't need any more wrinkles , but my God , this has given me some , because sometimes you know you just think , yeah , nature is incredible and you have to respect it .

Speaker 1 25:26

You can't fight it , you can't change it , you have to deal with what you've got and ultimately , we won't produce for the sake of producing . I mean , we really want to make sure that obviously , everybody is super comfortable with what we've made and the team are on board , because that's the most important thing . And , yeah , I don't think we've taken the easy path . It is the path least traveled . I think there's probably a book like that . I'm sure there is ?

Speaker 2 25:52

I think there is .

Speaker 1 25:54

Path less traveled , maybe the road less traveled , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 25:56

I don there is Path less traveled , maybe the road less traveled isn't it ?

Speaker 1 25:58

I don't know , I believe so . What are those things ? But it's that sort of point , isn't it ? And I think ?

Speaker 1 26:03

I don't know , I think as you get a bit older , you know your vision is in a way in which you know nobody else has done , and I think that's probably really rewarding at the same time , and that , combined with this sort of groundswell of enthusiasm for alcohol free , you know I remember as a child , as a young man , you know , thinking my God , I don don't want to drink , I feel pressurized to drink and I've

Changing behaviours

Speaker 1 26:41

got to go out . I must drink because everyone else is drinking , and you know it was it was . I think the world has changed , the world continues to change . People have a choice . They should be proud and they shouldn't have to feel , uh , pressurized to to drink . I'm not knocking alcohol , look , you know , I've been in the industry my entire life , really , and I respect it immensely . Um , and we're just trying to create something new that gives people that choice . Um , and and to some extent it's what we've seen in , you know , electric vehicles , I , you know the world is , chips seem to be taking over the world these days , but things are changing . And the art of communicating , the art of spending quality time with people , the art of having a good time but not needing anything specifically alcoholic to have a good time , if you choose that way , that's fine .

Speaker 1 27:33

I think that the ability is we all have a choice and whether it's to drink or not to drink , it's not for us to preach . But if I choose not to drink this evening , then I know that I can still be part of it and I and I and it doesn't say I'm a lesser person just because I'm choosing not to um and I think that's really important . You know , sometimes society makes us play small and we've always sort of got to have the courage of our own convictions to go no , it's okay , I'm fine . Thank you , I'm good . You know , I guess we saw that smoking and how smoking has changed and my gosh , nowadays , you know , it's almost obscene , not obscene , sorry , but it's very rare to see people smoking as much as obviously it was back in the day . So I guess there is a changing tide and there's a really good book . Actually it's quite an interesting book called the Buddha in the Mirror and it was quite interesting because one of the lines in it was that you know , do you feel that you're doing something genuinely to help society , right as a much bigger mission than you know , bottles sold , etc . And I genuinely think we are actually , I like to think that we are helping people have a good time in a humble way , where they don't feel pressurized one way or the other .

Speaker 1 28:52

Yeah , whether it's one alcoholic drink , one non-alcoholic drink , whether it's non-alcoholic all night , or whether it's no alcohol or alcohol , as I say , it's not preachy . It's just because we deserve a choice ultimately , and I think that starts to open up multiple opportunities really for people . And then we see it in our space now . Alcohol-free , luxury or premium alcohol free cocktails is such a cool space for people . Um , you know , because back in the day they were pretty much laden with sugar and they no , thank you .

Speaker 1 29:28

Nowadays they are an art . Um , they are , my gosh . It's like , it is like watching , you know , pieces of art come together when people are blending all these flavors and it becomes like a bit of a show . And I think that's a massive area that we've seen a huge change in how people will go out and will still spend the same sort of money , but they now demand which they should do something that is of high quality and that they realize has taken time to make . It's . It's not push a button and then here's a bottle . It's , oh , my gosh . You know , vintage is like this , and there's a bit of rain now and then the sun's coming and then the grapes can be picked here and you know , I think they like they personally . I think they deserve to to have things that actually people care about , what they're producing .

Speaker 2 30:13

Ultimately , I think you're absolutely right and so many points that you've made there , you know you're very much singing from my hymn sheet in terms of you know , it's not about preaching to people that the alcohol is bad or that they shouldn't drink .

Speaker 2 30:24

It's simply about everything I try to do with the magazine and with the podcast is about giving people choices and options that until now they didn't realize existed , and also that they didn't realize that the quality of of those options because you know you're , you're right

Demanding quality

Speaker 2 30:41

if you , if you travel back in time a few years across the board , across the low , no and light drinks spectrum , the quality was a lot uh , left a lot more to be desired , and so much work is being done now , whether that's talking about sparkling wines or still wines , whether that's talking about beers or the cocktails in the can you know you're right , it's not just push button , here's a fizzy pop . People are demanding quality . People are saying I will give you some money , but if you're going to ask me for this money , then you need to give me back something that's bloody good in return .

Speaker 1 31:19

Yeah , absolutely , and you know we've all learned the value of a pound or a dollar or a yen or whatever . It may be right , because you know we're living in an environment which is tough for some people and for a lot of us . It's not straightforward and I think it's fair . It's got to be a fair transaction , it's got to be a fair proposition .

Speaker 1 31:40

And you know , denise , we don't go out and make a million bottles and think , right , how many of these can I go and sell as quickly as possible ? We make pretty small parcels actually , and that's great because you know every bottle's gone through effectively that care and attention . You know we don't make one batch a year and that's it . You know we will do small batches at various times throughout the year and that , to me , is really quite special , that this isn't something that is readily available everywhere . You know you can't chase something too hard . You have to allow to produce the best you can .

Speaker 1 32:22

You put your name to you help people understand what you've made . Uh , you , you explain the story . Um , it's all down to personal choice , right and choice and flavor . I , I , you , some people may love us , I hope , and some people say look , it's not for me , and that's sort of okay , because you could drink some of the best wines in the world or eat in some of the best restaurants in the world or drink some of the finest champagnes and they're not going to be suited to everybody . So I , I don't fundamentally believe you can be all to everyone and I don't think you should do you .

Speaker 1 32:55

You have to stand for something and and I think that gives brand integrity . Um , and you know that sort of multi-billion dollar questions when do you go from product status to brand status ? You know , and I'm sure there's lots of wonderful marketers who've come up with a formula that says right now you're officially a brand , but , but I get , I get touched when I still see our bottles being listed in places . Or you go to a great restaurant and you see it in the fridge , or , um , people make nice comments on instagram and you know things like that are oh my god , you know so rewarding , um , and , and we're , we're lucky .

Speaker 1 33:34

You know we're served at Wimbledon , in the Royal Box , and you watch people enjoying and you're like , wow , that's something we've created . That is truly special , ultimately , and that's great because you're then watching people engage and consume in a way that they choose to do it . They choose to do it Whether it's because it looks as good as a high-quality sparkling something in a glass , which Wild Idol does , but they know they want to be in the moment , they want to enjoy the day .

Speaker 1 34:06

They may be driving , they may not want to drink or they're choosing for health reasons or whatever reasons it may be , but they're still fundamentally part of that experience . I think there's been a lot of talk about experiences for the last whatever . I mean post-COVID . I've seen everybody seems to be using the word handcrafted and experiences , but I think your experiences are what they are to you , because a luxury moment to some people could be an awesome walk on the beach , you know , with a decent cup of coffee , and that is priceless . Conversely , it could be flying first class to new york to go and have dinner in one of the best restaurants , in a mission style restaurant . You know , it's what it means to us as individuals and I , and I think that that's where wild idol actually plays a role in people's lives , because it enables them to still very much be part of that experience which is emotional definitely , you know , emotional is a lot more powerful than the logic .

Speaker 1 35:02

I think um , but there's an element of bringing together Funny enough bubbles do that . Bubbles really , sort of you know , absolutely generate laughter and it generates something you know . I'm sure there's some study somewhere that sort of proves that bubbles do make you feel a little bit more engaged and a little more lightheaded .

Speaker 2 35:22

They do . It's understood , isn't it , that bubbles are the marker of a special occasion , and I mean . But also I think it's changing now because it's not just the fancy special occasion . You know , for example , my husband and I , on a Friday or Saturday night , if we're having a bit of time together once the kids are in bed we'll open a bottle of bubbles , because it's that , it's what marks that we're having this special drink together as opposed to just him having a Guinness and me having you know whatever else so they absolutely do .

Speaker 2 35:54

I wanted to take you . You touched on this a little bit . I mentioned it in the introduction . You know your background . You've worked for some of the some very prestigious brands . You mentioned that Wild Idol

Premiumisation in low & no

Speaker 2 36:08

was enjoyed in the Royal Box . I mentioned that it's available in very high-end retailers like Selfridges and Harrods . First of all , congratulations on reaching such heights , thank you .

Speaker 2 36:20

But it begs the question for me that I think you're in a really great position to speak on , and that is that the way we've seen low and no changing over the years . We've now got to a stage where I've started to notice and other people have commented on that there is now a sense of premiumisation that's growing within the category and I wanted to get your thoughts on this , because we've come from a point of not having very much to having a lot and some of it was quite rubbish and some of it was quite rubbish and some of it was fantastic to now having , uh , levels of of low and no , alcohol , free or light alcohol drinks that people can turn to for for different occasions . And I wondered your thoughts on the whole premiumization of of low and no and where that's taking the category .

Speaker 1 37:13

I think most categories , they either do one or two things . They start at the top and then they go down , or they start at the bottom and start to go up , and I think probably this space started at the bottom and it probably didn't get any lower . To be honest , no default , no , you know I'm not judging , it's what it was when they launched , but actually there's a logic of good , better , best . No , you know , I'm not judging , it's what it was when they launched , but actually there's a logic of good , better , best , right , which has been around , I think , for generations , classic sort of marketing segmentation and all the rest of it . But I think the one word underpins premiumization and it's trust , and you have to have the integrity to produce something you believe in , because that will come across . Now , what part of your marketing does it come across ? It's always hard to say , but you're doing something with integrity and therefore every piece of content and conversation you have , tasting you have , is done with an element of integrity .

Speaker 1 38:15

You cannot buy premiumization in my view . You know , I think price back in the day was a predetermined of quality and in some instances it absolutely is . But don't just do that . Explain to me why . Know . Give me the justifications behind that . I would like to understand logically , but I'm going to buy emotionally . Conversely , I will then make a decision that's based on emotion as well . I do . I do think premiumization in a lot of categories certainly emerging categories like alcohol free , as you rightly said quality's got better and better and better , and if you bought something that was expensive and tasted , quite frankly , pretty diabolical , you would be so disappointed and the chances are you would then sort of the whole category would tarnish with that sort of brush . It would be like well , quite frankly , it's all overpriced and it's not very good .

Speaker 1 39:14

So , the best way is to build longevity and trust , and that's why it's a long game . That is why it's a long game , that's why you have to do what I call the grind work . You have to do the right things when nobody is looking , and I'm sure that's been used in a million one books , but it's true . I mean , there are some fundamentals in life . You know what you put in , you get out . Not always , it's not always fair , but if you're doing it with integrity and and transparency , then I I think you have to trust the system too . Right , you have to trust the process , um , you , conversely , have to be consistent with your values for your brand and what does that mean ?

Speaker 1 39:57

Well , with respect , if you are going to be a brand that is going to be listed in some of the best places and available to our customers , it probably means that you're not going to try and sell loads and loads and loads of stock in other outlets just for the sake of hitting numbers . Of course , every business needs numbers I mean , that's the commercial world but at your peril if you do it in a short-term way and I genuinely think that's how brands build credibility the price point does now justify the quality that people are drinking . It just does , because you know you take a long time to make it . You're using the most recyclable glass in the world . You're using the best and most sustainable cork in the world . We use things like soy ink on our labeling .

Speaker 1 40:48

We give 1% of revenue back to the planet charity you know , um , I , I mean you know to try and get the lowest possible carbon footprint per bottle that we produce . I mean you , you can do anything short term and cut corners , um , but that does not build the uh again , the trust with , with your customer , your shopper , your consumer , nor does it substantiate the reason for you as a brand to stand on your own two feet and say this is what I want to stand for to people . So I'm sort of really conscious not to give you a marketing response to that question , because I think I think premiumization in every category can , can happen . Um , I , you know whether the products from two pound to three pound in that space , you know , three pound may be a lot of money . I don't know . I'm trying to come up with something now . Yeah , certain jams , for example , I mean coffee pods . I'm a caffeine addict , I love caffeine . Oh my gosh . Look at the spectrum of price points there , you know .

Speaker 1 41:50

And and I guess every space needs to look to premiumize , not because they want more margin to the bottom line , but because they fundamentally know that the value that somebody's getting for what has been produced outweighs the price they're paying , or at least is equivalent . And that's the hard thing . That is totally the hard thing , and you have to make some tough decisions in that space . Um , I think we'll continuously see premiumization , personally , and we see it in in retail stores these days . You see it in hotels and restaurants , um , and , and people , I think people will pay if they feel they're getting good value , that they trust what they're drinking , they know what they're buying , um , and quite frankly , it doesn't taste so obscure and , quite honestly , you know , not very good um , and , and that that to me is a massive factor um , it's , it's , but help people understand a little bit as well . You know . Know , give them something that's great quality , that you would be prepared to drink yourself .

Speaker 1 42:55

And price points is always going to be the elasticity question around pricing and every market is going to be so different . You know we see them with our supermarket shelves here the benefits of price promotions , you know . And ultimately , you know one can create what they call promotional junkies in every category , by the way , not just alcohol or non-alcohol . So I think you have to be really consistent and disciplined and , yeah , sometimes it means you don't get the volumes you want , but it doesn't matter because you are building legitimacy that people should be proud to put this on the table or as a gift . Should be proud to put this on the table or as a gift . You take christmas , for example . You know sparkling was approximately 40 percent of business was done in the last eight weeks of the year . Well , how many of those people don't drink ? How many of those people should still be able to receive something in a beautiful you know like wild ivy box with a beautiful gift at christmas time ? It's not a you know , know , I don't know , uncle .

Speaker 2 43:54

Dave or .

Speaker 1 43:54

Auntie Mary doesn't drink . Oh my God , what am I going to give them for Christmas ? You know it's like , well , now they can actually have something . And it's crazy to say this , isn't it really ? Because you think , well , surely they could have had it for years , but nothing's genuinely in my head existed probably until now , and I think that's a really lovely option . Actually , everybody's equal in that space .

Speaker 2 44:17

I think you're right .

Moving forward with caution

Speaker 2 44:26

I think that the premiumization will continue to to grow and to develop . Just from speaking to a lot of brand founders and what people are trying to achieve now and I think part of it is the attempt just to raise the bar in general and say that you know , these liquids need to be better and they need to be at their best I do think we need to make sure that , as an industry , we manage how it's done and that it's you mentioned earlier on . You know people try something in this space . They can be quite unforgiving , to paraphrase you , and I completely agree .

Speaker 2 44:52

I mean , the most premium brand that I've come across is I've not tasted it yet that there's a bottle of alcohol-free wine out there that costs 109 pounds , and you know that's a lot of money to present to a populace who are still quite on the fence . Unless you're already in this world , a lot of people are still quite on the fence . Unless you're already in this world , a lot of people are still quite on the fence about it , and so I think it's important that we manage how those types of drinks are presented to people in a way that they can , as you say , appreciate the story and understand what is the value in this for me .

Speaker 1 45:29

You know what that whole thing around leading a horse to water , but you can't force it to drink .

Speaker 1 45:34

I think you have to be really . Look , I think all of this comes with a caution right , there's a little amber flag somewhere that says do not underestimate the power of your consumer and your customer . Yes , and I'm not saying the 109,9 , 108 pound bottle of something is bad at all at all . Um , there's novelty factor , right , and that's fine . Look , you know , that is a big step , that's a huge drive for people .

Speaker 1 46:09

I think right now , as as an industry , we should be helping people engage in high quality alcohol free . You know , every business is going to have its own strategy and I just think sometimes it's good to be bold , but I would also not try and alienate people . Actually , you know , you do need a number of people to be buying into the concept of certain price points first . Um , yeah , yeah , and you know I don't know enough about it , never tried it , but I'm I'm sure there's a reason for doing it . Um , and you know , maybe we haven't done it for a reason , um , but that's because I'd prefer to get something absolutely as good as we can possibly get at a price point that . You know , it's still a stretch for people sometimes , which I respect and understand .

Speaker 2 47:01

Yeah .

Speaker 1 47:02

But we're not doing it for any other reason apart from the fact that it's , you know , not mass volume . Gosh , you know the care and attention that goes into this is hard and it's volatile . You know it's . It's gosh , you know the care and attention that goes into this is is hard and it's volatile . You know it's difficult to do . It's not volatile , but it's . It's a challenge . It's not a straightforward process . Um so I guess for us , that's , that's , that's the fundamentals of it . Um , so , yeah , good luck . I don't know , I could be wrong . I could be wrong . I , I could be wrong . I will always be .

Speaker 2 47:33

Let me take you back to Wild Idol , specifically For those watching the video . You can see I've got

Wild Idol flavour profile

Speaker 2 47:39

some beautiful bottles here .

Speaker 1 47:40

You do .

Speaker 2 47:41

Could you tell us a little bit about the flavor profiles of ?

Speaker 1 47:46

each of these drinks ? Yeah , definitely . So you have the rosé there and that's that . So we launched first with our rosé . Actually , that was the first first line that we were able to launch with um , and it was . It was the .

Speaker 1 48:01

The vision was not to , uh , extract too much color from the skin of of the red grapes . So we use merlot in that um , because I really wanted this beautiful sort of provence rosé color actually and you know you look at a lot of roses in the market today there's multiple color shades . I mean , god , it's incredible , there's so many spectrums of rosé color . But what we wanted to try and produce with our rosé was there's an extra exceptionally beautiful little red strawberry , which is a French strawberry . It's a tiny little one that's got a really beautiful pungent nose and taste . And we were trying to pull out this natural expression of the Merlot variety . Because with the Muller-Turgau grape , you've got , as I said , this kaleidoscope of flavour , you've got acidity and freshness , you've got , um , a little bit of spice , um , it's got this vibrancy about it , which which is awesome really , not many people would go out and drink mullet toga . And then we decided to use merlot as well , because , merlot , we wanted a bit of tannin , uh , that that sort of slightly dry , dry tea , but you need that to balance out the palate ultimately . So I think with our rosé , what you get is this sort of summer fruits flavor , those lovely red fruits , but with a beautiful hint of sort of wild strawberry , but not sweet .

Speaker 1 49:28

And the most important thing for me was the longevity on the palate . So a lot of a lot of products that have been day out normally , you know flavor , finish dead , you know it just sort of falls off a cliff , and for me it's how could we try and elongate that , uh , that that flavor in the palate where you do have different um , um sort of profiles coming to life ? And the most important thing was obviously to have a nice clean palette at the end is lovely , right ? You don't want it cloying , you don't want that syrupy flavor . So you need that lovely acidity , which is essential in anything with bubbles in my world , which is essential in anything with bubbles in my world .

Speaker 1 50:10

But at the same point you want this sort of beautiful little berry fruit which just takes out the age of the acidity , which is really like a zesty acidity , right , freshness , so , and with a structure , with a nice follow through because , and ultimately , you want your palate feeling livened , you want it to feeling like it's , you know , just sort of had its own little workout . It's like , okay , I could do that again and it's sort of got this freshness to it and ultimately would I come back for a second glass . You know that's always our goal . How do we make something that actually I would love to drink , whether it be winter , summer , all year round , breakfast , you know , brunches but ultimately has this cleanliness to it . So you know our rosé it has become incredibly popular , which is lovely . Hence the reason why we've done half bottles now and Magnums , which have been great .

Speaker 1 51:11

We're on our second vintage , which we're super delighted with , and you know it's a style that's suitable all day long . I mean , it's beautiful really , and serve at 7 to 8 degrees . It's beautiful clean flavor . See , if you overchill it , you kill all the flavor right , and you have it at room temperature . You get natural flavor .

Speaker 1 51:33

so actually , about eight , seven to eight degrees is the perfect temperature because you've got that . That the chill factor actually brings its life . It sort of explodes a little bit in your mouth , which is nice . That , coupled with this really soft , elegant bubble and the white , yeah , wow , it's fascinating because our white has become incredibly popular with the hotels and restaurant sector . This is Merlot sorry , merlot Turgot . There's no dosage in the white . It's got this beautiful golden hue color . It actually looks like this sort of slightly golden , like a slightly longer age Blanc de Blanc . Right , that's what happens to Blanc de Blanc . It normally goes slightly darker over a bit of age . Yeah , look at that color , right , I mean , it's just so appealing because it's actually got a structure all on its own and it can go with food .

Speaker 1 52:28

You can drink it on its own . It's really versatile actually , and there's a body to it . A lot of Alfreys are really light , they're like watery , and this has got a sort of structure to it . There's a frame to this which is not a one-dimensional flavor but almost this sort of rounded element to the spice , from the Muller , the ripe fruit that you get , the acidity . So , yeah , actually the wine we're really blown away with , and people , very much more credible people in the context of the wine world , have said are you sure this doesn't have alcohol ? I guarantee you it doesn't have alcohol . But I guarantee it doesn't have alcohol . It's just that we've gone into a new space with muller turgown trying to bring this to life . So , um , now you know we'll always try other things , excuse me . We're always looking at innovation , but not innovation just for the sake of it , but but with intent . So , excuse me , that's the aspiration . Yeah , I love the wine . I love different occasions . Actually , there's two different occasions ultimately .

Speaker 2 53:44

I love that you have such a long background in wine but yet you describe it in very relatable terms um , because you know you can . Quite often wine is intimidating for people . Um , and then out free is intimidating for people . So you put those two things together and people are like I I don't know seven of those words that you just used , but you know you , you describe it in a , in a , in a really sort of approachable way um . And I've learned something because I've been in hospitality for 24 years and I've never heard of that grape , that Muller Tergal never heard of that one , so that's fantastic .

Speaker 2 54:20

If people want to know before I let you go , I've got two questions for you . So the first and foremost is if people would like to go and obviously try some amazing wild idol for themselves , learn more about your story and and and what you're trying to achieve , where's the best place for them to go and find you ?

Speaker 1 54:37

well , look , I mean , you know , quite frankly , the website is the best place . It's got our story . It tells everything . Um , we have an ability for people to try it . We have our lovely clients who are listing it , whether it's the ivy restaurants who do a wonderful program with by the glass or afternoon tea programs . So we list a lot of our great clients on there . They can come to me directly . It'd be a pleasure . You know , wildidlecom is the site we sell directly to consumers just one bottle if they wish , just to try . You know that's fine . So that would absolutely be the best place .

Speaker 2 55:16

Fantastic .

Speaker 2 55:17

I will make sure that that's all in the show notes so that people can go and go and have a look for themselves and make a purchase and learn more about you and get in contact if they have any questions . Before I let you go , it's time for my final question , which is one that I ask everybody who comes on the show , because

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 55:35

I am all about spreading the love of low-no and light drinks across all of low-no nation . So I appreciate that we're recording this in autumn , but I'm going to stick with my barbecue analogy . So cast your mind forwards to next year or back to this summer analogy . So cast your mind forward to next year or back to this summer and let's imagine you're off to a barbecue um with a few friends to have a lovely sunny time and for that day you don't feel like drinking alcohol other than , obviously , a couple of bottles of wild idol white and rosé to share amongst the many appreciative guests who will be there . What other drinks in the low no or light space do you enjoy drinking in your own downtime ?

Speaker 1 56:18

so this is quite interesting . Actually , I've never been a beer drinker right , I was never a beer drinker young . I've never been into drinking multiple beers etc during my time , but there are now some exceptional beers in the market which actually I've become a consumer of beer which is bizarre because I've never drunk it , you know , in my youth effectively , but now I would .

Speaker 1 56:48

I would easily drink some of these beers . They're so good . Guinness Zero , zero , off the charts , right . The guys have done amazingly and that really is a true testament to commitment to quality and commitment to the customer experience . So I would actually go into the beer space or the stout space , because it's weird , I never did before but now I would so and it's enjoyable , I love it , um , and it's very much being part of that occasion , and and it's refreshing and clean and doesn't taste chemically or chemical . I should say so , yeah , that that would be my space . Actually , that , yeah , need to be invited to a barbecue , of course , but once somebody invites me , then I'll definitely be there with that . But , um , interesting , interesting .

Speaker 1 57:37

Yes , yeah , totally , and I think that's really interesting , being a non-drinker beer drinker to them , becoming a alcohol-free beer drinker , which is I've heard that from a few people , though , paul .

Speaker 2 57:46

I have heard from a few people who they previously weren't big beer drinkers , and I myself wasn't a very big beer drinker , uh either , um but , now that they're drinking more alcohol free , and I don't know if it's because people are experimenting more , because you're sort of like , right , I'm in this world , now let me go and find some stuff . There's lots of different things to try , or you know . It's obviously that the the lack of alcohol in there is not reacting with the hops in the same way and giving that because you don't have as much bitterness , for example , or as much weight in some of these beers which actually makes them more , more sessionable , more enjoyable in in that way , I guess , for people who didn't .

Speaker 2 58:24

But then you do still have some elk free beers that have got a lot of oomph to them , like the um , the big drops , you know . They've got a lot of punch to them . So oh yeah , it's interesting , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 58:35

it's totally interesting and and I just think that's where now businesses are really so committed to giving customers a great experience and that whole element of being more present and enjoying the occasion . I mean I just find it really bizarre . People who know me , you know like well , now you'll drink beer , but you never did 20 years ago . And I can't really explain it , apart from the fact it it feels really right and I just feel very much you know part of that occasion . So yeah , there you go , that helps amazing .

Speaker 2 59:04

Paul , thank you so much for your time today . I'm gonna let you go , but I could have talked to you for for much , much longer . I've got lots of questions we didn't get to . So in the future , when there's some more developments , I'd love to invite you back on again . But for now thank you so much .

Speaker 1 59:21

My absolute pleasure . Thank you so much , Nis , for having me Thanks .