Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

I went into this deli that was permanently closing . It was late September of 2020 and the guy was permanently closing . He was in a bad spot , wasn't paying his rent and was like do you want to buy the place ? I was probably there for less than a minute and I was like sure how much .

Speaker 2 1:30

Before we get started , just a really quick question . Have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom ? Forward slash free gifts . Well , you should Right . You ready to go ?

Speaker 1 1:42

Let's do this thing .

Speaker 2 1:43

Let's do this thing , okay , hi ? Hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast . Today I'm speaking to the very lovely , naturally tanned Joshua James from his fantastic San Franciscan hotspot . All about his wonderful bar , the Ocean Beach Cafe and Non-Alcoholic Bar , and if you are watching on YouTube you can see Joshua is very kindly pointing that out for us here . I'm looking at his oceanfront view , with the waves crashing , whilst here in London it is four o'clock and the sun is starting to set . So Joshua wins . Joshua is the first bar owner I've had on the show , and regular listeners will know I've got a 24 year background in hospitality and bars and restaurants myself , so I'm very keen to find out what it's like running a non-alc bar . But I promise not to get too geeky or nerdy about that side of things , and I'm really keen to know what it's like running that kind of bar in a town that has been known to party hard . So , joshua , thank you for joining me today . How are you from ? Your gorgeous location ?

Speaker 1 2:57

Joshua , thank you for joining me today . How are you ? From your gorgeous location , I am doing amazing . I'm super excited about this . This is like one of my favorite things to do is people need to hear what's going on . It's kind of a household subject now with non-alcoholic beverages , and it's meetings like this where we can really talk about it and define the look and feel of it , and that's something that I'm super passionate about , so I'm feeling great this morning . It's nice , beautiful day . In San Francisco Doesn't happen too much to get sunny skies and no clouds , but today is a good day .

Speaker 2 3:28

It looks like a great day and I'm going to try not to be too jealous before you . Press record I just taught Joshua the well gel phrase that our Essex brethren here in the UK have given us . I'm not sure that America will be grateful if I introduce that to them , so I am indeed very jealous of this gorgeous view . I'm

Joshua's story

Speaker 2 3:52

really intrigued to find out the journey that led you from where you were to opening a bar that is dedicated to non-alcoholic drinks . So start where you want to start . How did you get here ?

Speaker 1 4:07

Well , first I had to drink a lot and that was fun until it wasn't as a career bartender . I was just really into geeking out on all liquor beers and wines and everything else and that was fun for me . So kind of like how a chef gets into food and they kind of dedicate their life to it . Mine was to bar and I love to tell stories and find the coolest and best things that I could and then share it with others in a fun hospitality setting . That was my favorite part of the job was like check this out . And then I could see a trend to lower ABV products coming out in 2018 . I was managing bars in New York City and I stopped drinking in 2019 . And I was like I got on my computer and I was like , all right , what products are out there ? I was in Asheville , north Carolina , and I'm sending love to that town because it is a completely different place after those massive floods , and it was there that I started doing a little bit of my research late 2019 . And then I I wasn't going to do anything there , and then 2020 came , so that was COVID , and then I started shooting videos for YouTube and Instagram .

Speaker 1 5:23

As Josh the non-alcoholic and I was . I was taken a year off drinking Like that was , that was what 2020 was and I I was like I'm going to make 50 videos . So I went to Total Wine and I didn't have any money but I spent $250 on non-ox spirits , beers and wines and I was like let's start shooting videos . And that was kind of how everything started . So I got to know the people that were moving and shaking during 2020 and kind of became one of them . And then I was shooting right out here at this beach and I went into this deli that was permanently closing .

Speaker 1 6:07

It was late September of 2020 . I had like 30 videos on YouTube and the guy was permanently closing . He was in a bad spot , wasn't paying his rent and was like do you want to buy the place ? I was probably there for less than a minute . I was like sure how much I was eight months into sobriety at that point . So I was firing on all cylinders , although I had no interest in staying in food and beverage . I wanted to do something completely different and I was actively working on that . This opportunity , the rent , the price for the place . I knew this whole non-op thing was coming and I was like I can't not do this . It the yeah , I just . I opened so many other places for other people . I was 38 years old and I was like boop , turned to 180 and was like , all right , I'll open up a spot and just be like planted here for the foreseeable future .

Speaker 2 7:08

Wow , that's quite a . I mean , that's a bold step right To just go in and this opportunity presents itself to you . And was it like an instant decision for you , or did it take a bit of talking yourself into it ?

Speaker 1 7:23

I remember that moment . Actually it took me two or three days where I was like I was selling an item on amazon . I was like I'm gonna live remotely , I'm not in food and beverage . I was going to restaurants being like I do not want to do that anymore , I know that . And sell an item on Amazon and figure it out , make a business and travel the world that's , that is what I'm doing and that , in my core , in my heart of hearts , was that's what I wanted to do .

Speaker 1 7:46

So when this opportunity came up , it was literally I was like let me think about this . It was probably two or three days . I think that was it . It's been even just two days . And then I was like do I really want to switch what I know I want to do in my heart of hearts . And I and I was like actually , yeah , I'm going all in , I'm going to see if I can get funding for this . Um , I was going to . I did it on a bootstrap , I had no money and I had horrible credit , but I had good character and I was like , let's see if this gets me through . And , yeah , it ended up working out . We're still here .

Speaker 2 8:23

There you go , with a wink and a smile and a little bit of charm , and look at you now .

Speaker 1 8:31

Yeah , it's the hardest thing you could ever do , you know . But you don't open a food and beverage brick and mortar to make a million bucks . You open it because you have something to share . And the main main reason I opened it was was was to build a non-alcoholic bar and bottle shop where I could make cocktails and I could show people all these bottles in the space so they could see it . That's all . That's what I want . I just want to . I don't care if they buy anything . I was like I just want them to see it . And I purposely called it a cafe . That was the whole point . It was like ocean beach cafecom was available and I'm like that's the name .

Speaker 1 9:09

And now we get people like the vast percentage of people are like 98% of people are like where's the coffee near me ? They're at the beach , it's a tourist location , like where do I eat right now ? And they're like Ocean Beach Cafe . They see the pictures . Oh , that food looks delicious . It's absolutely delicious . The coffee is super high quality , that's super important . And they're like okay , we're going there .

Speaker 1 9:34

They probably saw a couple things about non-alcoholic beverages in those pictures or maybe in the messaging . And then they get there like could I get a latte , which , like I'm not super passionate about lattes , like some other people are sure . I got them now and I'm like um , have you ever heard of us before ? And they're like oh yeah , I just found you on google . It's like nice , yeah , yeah , we're . We're kind of known around the world for being like the first non-alcoholic bar and bottle shop in the country . So everything you see in here is non-alcoholic . They're like , really like , yeah , yeah , all of it . It's like the best non-alcoholic wine right there . Crazy non-alcoholic beer selection . And , uh , do you want any cream in that coffee ?

Speaker 1 10:15

and they're like wait what , hold on a minute yeah , now that they've seen it , they can't unsee it and it changes their brain . It literally changes the brain to be like oh it , it looks like that . That looks awesome . Yeah , I'm so curious , I want to know more . I stopped drinking eight months ago . Like I hear it multiple times a day .

Speaker 2 10:38

Yeah , definitely , people are definitely saying it more .

Other US venues

Speaker 2 10:42

So yours was the first venue of its kind in the country .

Speaker 1 10:47

No , there was three of us . So there was Spirited Away in Manhattan , and he was . He was like the first , next to Mel in Pittsburgh , pennsylvania . And then there was awake Denver , which was like the non-alcoholic bar and the cafe so just like me . And then there was sans bar , which is also known as the first um , widely said as the first non-alcoholic bar in the country would be Sands Bar 2017 , austin , Texas , chris Marshall . And then there was me . So there was kind of like there was four of us , there's some other like random things in there , but there was pretty much a group of four of us at that time that actually had retail locations .

Speaker 2 11:34

But I mean that's still not a lot . So what was it that made you go ? Made you think that the world is ready for this ? Like you know , there's only three other people doing at the moment . A lot of people would look at that and say , well , that's not a trend yet there's not that many people doing it . I might ride the wave a little bit and see what happens .

Speaker 1 12:31

What was it that made you go ? No , this is the right time . This is what I need to be doing right now . It was really clear to me and very natural to make that decision for it to be the number one focus of my cafe , and it was also . I just naturally like pattern recognition and seeing trends . As a bartender , I bartended and managed bars in a lot of different cities and I always was fascinated by people and like how they do things in a pattern and what is trending . So that one , it was really clear All the ABV was getting lower in the beers , the Aperol spritzes and I just I really again , my favorite thing to do is to find really cool stuff and share it with people in a hospitality setting , like that's my thing . So when it came to me not drinking , I'd already been doing some research in that last year , year and a half , just kind of looking at what was going on and what brands are out there and I . It just made so much sense to me .

Speaker 2 13:27

Yeah , that's brilliant , that's absolutely brilliant . So what do people find ? So you've mentioned that you've got the coffees and the lattes for those who are coming in

The vibe inside?

Speaker 2 13:39

in the morning maybe looking for a pick-me-up , but what's in the bar ? If I've come , I've traveled over and I want to come and hang out . What am I going to ? Ocean ?

Speaker 1 13:51

Beach Cafe to find . So that's the other thing that we get is people that travel great distances for this thing . We've had 70 articles written about us . So there is many , there's many tens of thousands of people right here and beyond and then beyond that that are like we know of this place . I think it's called Ocean Beach Cafe cafe . We got to go there sometimes and then I probably get like one percent of the people that are aware of us because of my location .

Speaker 1 14:15

It's a it's a little harder to get out here , but it's like the most beautiful part of san francisco . So if you're anywhere near san francisco you have to make it a point . This is like a must stop . It is a total vibe of a cafe . It is super hospitality driven . It's one of those places that you walk into and people instantly feel different . And it's not over the top , it's just , it's just right , just with the coziness and the sounds , and it's bustling and it's just like this place has got such a good vibe . It's just so comfortable and disarming and safe and it's bustling and it's just like this place has got such a good vibe . It's just so comfortable and disarming and safe and it's just such a sweet thing and that's what I wanted to create .

Speaker 1 14:53

So it's cafe heavy as well and there's a whole section as you walk in . It's like the register all the sandwiches being made , the espresso machine and the coffee grinders it's all . When you walk in on the left and then there's this there's eight seats that sit along this kind of like almost like diner style situation , and the last four of those seats is a whole section with a really cool circular refrigerator and a back bar and it's it's kind of like there's a section there that is the best seat in the house and it's also the one that not many people sit at because it's a little farther down . But if they only knew what happens in those seats is this fridge full of the best and the coolest and the most interesting non-alcoholic beverages and bottles . All sits right there and all the cocktails get made . So it's a full bar setup .

Speaker 1 15:43

But the space itself is very cafe-heavy's . That's just what it is , and and it's it's it's its own kind of charming little thing as opposed to walking into a bar , and it's like a typical bar setup . It is not , but I also kind of like that . I mean , of course I do , cause it's my spot , but it's . It's also like it's going to be so interesting to see the brick and mortars in the future and what it looks like . Does it have to be a familiar bar setup with the stools and the end bar ? If I was to do a second place , yes , that would be neat to see . But I also think of it like the way things are shifting and the way people want to get together and what they want to do and what kind of experience they're having in a non-alcoholic beverage focus space . We actually have some room to kind of change what that looks like and I think that could be a very positive thing .

Speaker 2 16:40

Yeah , absolutely . I mean , it's often said on this podcast and other conversations that I'm part of that . You know we're building this whole movement as we're going along , so there's actually a lot of room to create what we want to see in this world , because you know , we're not set by certain rules and structures and saying it has to look like this , you have to have six bar stools and you have to have the tables on the right . You can kind of make it what you want , and I think as well I love that you mentioned about it being a really welcoming place , because I'm pretty sure that in my research I found a video of you serenaded somebody for their birthday with a ukulele . Is that was that ? Did I imagine that ?

Speaker 1 17:23

Yeah , no , that happened and that was at a moment where I was like I want to , I need to , I want to get more stuff on youtube and I was like maybe this will start today and I just like there's so many sweet , cool things that happen like that in a day there and I post less than 5% of like the really amazing action and conversations and connections Cause in any in any non-op conversation , any any talk about this subject that is now a household subject . There is so much transfer of amazing energy . People are so curious , they're so interested and you're telling them . They're like , oh , I now know this thing and they want to tell their family , they want to tell their friends what they saw and they do . And then we get people coming in from that .

Speaker 1 18:18

Like I heard about this place , my friend . It's this really special , potent energy and it's palpable and it happens in that space all day long . So if people are thinking about opening a space , just know that that's actually what's going to fill the room is this real curiosity , interest and then it being satisfied and people connecting over it . And instead of the frequency of alcohol filling the room , it's this one between people that are genuinely connecting with this novel space . That's just legitimately awesome .

Speaker 2 18:57

It's that you paint quite a picture there . It just sounds like a place that you can be yourself and be accepted and feel comfortable , and I think that's a lot something that a lot of people who are exploring whether they are fully teetotal or whether they are just starting off on their journey are really struggling to find spaces that they can call their own and know that they can just go without being judged , without having to explain themselves . I'm curious your experiences . As we mentioned before , you were in the UK not so long ago and I'm sure you would have done a tour of as many spaces that you could

Comparing bars in the UK

Speaker 2 19:39

find , and then I know you mentioned you popped over somewhere else . I'm just curious as to how you found your experiences here in London when you came , if you managed to visit many spaces that you felt offered that same sort of welcome and comfort to people who are on this journey .

Speaker 1 20:00

Everywhere I travel . I really like to get a pulse for where the non-alcoholic beverage industry is , as we say it over here . You guys are alcohol-free industry , right , and it's it . It took me two days and , and I'm sure I would I know I would learn even more if I was there , uh , for more days , but I really I felt like I got a good sense of where the uk was at .

Speaker 1 20:23

And , first of all , the UK is further along , as in there's been more years for entrepreneurs to come out with products in the UK and a lot of that stuff we don't get in America because it's it's cost prohibitive and shipping all that stuff is super expensive . So you guys have a ton of stuff that I never get to try . And I also learned that the UK was a bit more price sensitive . It was where they they wouldn't be wanting to be . They don't want to be spending as much in the U S right now . We've been price adjusted so many times and you know this new cool , hot thing , it's just everything's 34 to $40 . And you know this new cool , hot thing , it's just everything's 34 to 40 dollars , you know , for these bottles . And with a longer time and more years producing a bunch of different brands . In the uk there's more of a it's not weird to have a non-alcoholic beer in your hand and all the news about Guinness over there is something that people really seem to have heard about and that really makes a big impact .

Speaker 1 21:37

And then , lastly , I'll say , with the U ? S , it kind of went really quickly . From why are you drinking an O'Doul's ? Like that's weird ? And it's actually kind of went really quickly from why are you drinking an O'Doul's ? Like that's weird ? And it's actually kind of socially awkward actually . And it quickly went to like athletic brewing company , and then that changed the world , and there was also Brabus . And there was also two routes , though , and you might as well bring up the other two , the three brands that had actually started that in the late 20-teens , but it was a very quick thing . We didn't have the years before that where we were getting eased into this new market . It was nothing like very , very recently .

Speaker 2 22:27

It was nothing very , very recently . That's really interesting because , you know , it's quite often said that what happens in America eventually happens here in the UK . But it sounds like it's slightly a bit of a reverse in this regard . In terms of , you know , there is a lot of talk of a lot of creativity and innovation coming out of the UK , but the US being bigger does things bigger . You know , if you look at , you mentioned athletic brewing . I mean , they're just phenomenally huge over there and the information that I'm seeing is just is mind boggling . They're kind of like the Guinness Zero over here in terms of you know , everybody's just talking about it over here . In terms of you know , everybody's just talking about it Interestingly , I mean , you know you're in a part of the States that has been known for being a decadent lifestyle .

Speaker 2 23:17

You know , people go to California , people go to San Francisco . It's a party . There's a lot of party areas around . It's a party . There's a lot of party areas around , um , so it's sort of interesting to know how a bar like yours is being received in that venue , like when you opened up , was it ? Do people just get it straight away or is it more that it is because you mentioned , lots of people come to you specifically . Is it more of a destination ?

Speaker 1 23:45

so , first of all , san francisco is much different . Uh , during covid Sure Five , six years ago , there was a certain well , you kind of have to go back a little bit . Okay , there was a big tech boom in 2010 to 2012 and then further along in there . So the rest of the 2010s was , that's , when all the rents were super sky high and that's what a lot of people remember and that was a big boom and so it was a lot of tech and a ton of money like highest rent in the country , but then that bubble kind of burst and then COVID hit and then hundreds of thousands of people left and that was a mixture of the ones that had came for the big boom and then a lot of kind of like core San Francisco culture people . I guess the core would still be here , but there was just a lot of kind of like core San Francisco culture people . I guess the core would still be here , but there was just a lot of people in it . And so the culture shifted in San Francisco to be very different and it skewed younger and it skewed a lot of tech .

Speaker 1 24:48

So actually that's a perfect recipe for people that are drinking less and people that just don't really have an interest in drinking , comparatively to other generations . So we have a lot of that . Non-alcoholic and tech is a perfect marriage . They want to be focused , they want to move up the ladder , they want to get funded , they want to be driven every day to sell their company . Alcohol is like , really naturally , without much thought , is just kind of like oh no , that's taking me away from everything that I'm doing . So it's actually a really good fit for a place .

Speaker 1 25:24

And then you could kind of look at , like , you know , as you go more north in california it gets a little stonier . So with , with thc , um , it's just , it's just a little stonier up here . So , like , kind of drinker , you're a smoker . I mean , that's an extreme generalization . But you also have that factor where , uh , and then where san francisco now is currently even more people had left to go to austin and idaho and phoenix , nashville , and you have this younger group , gen . Half of them aren't really drinking and this unprecedented shift that nobody expected . And San Francisco has not bounced back like New York City . And when I go to New York City it's like , oh my God , this is bumping . You come back to San Francisco . I was in the Mission District . Last night the bartenders were like dude , the mission is slow . I was like I can't believe I'm hearing that right now . The Mission District like wow , so it's different than what folks may be thinking , but that's the current state of San Francisco as I see it .

Speaker 2 26:40

You mentioned there sort of a phrase . You said that if you go a bit further , I think you said north . It was a little bit a little stonier ,

Cali sober

Speaker 2 26:48

which made me smile the way you phrased that , but it brought to mind the term California sober or Cali sober , which has been sort of doing the rounds a little bit , and it's a phrase that's getting more and more popular over here . Is that something that you're finding is having an impact on sort of your business and your trade , and could you tell us maybe what Cali sober actually , what it means ?

Speaker 1 27:19

tell us , maybe , what calisobia actually ? What it means , yeah , calisober being that you smoke weed or you ingest edibles that are thc , um , but you're , but you're not drinking alcohol . So calisober I personally love the phrase because I have such an interest and a motivation and a mission to destigmatize sobriety , and you gave us Sober Curious right that came from the UK .

Speaker 2 27:44

Yeah .

Speaker 1 27:45

And thank you for that , because that's on that road to destigmatizing something , because five , six years ago it was how come you're not drinking ? Which is the stupidest statement that you could hear from somebody like I know . We don't even have to get into that , it explains itself how come I'm not drinking ? It's like I want to feel better or be focused , like , yeah , so , but . But that's just culturally how it was . It was this new thing , um , and so when sober curious , came in , it made it so much more accessible . It wasn't like oh , if I stop , I have a problem and it's going to be socially awkward . Love Sober , curious , cali Sober too . It just like widens it a bit more . It's like okay , the whole sober thing , which totally has weight and connotation to it .

Speaker 1 28:29

I did not use the word sober for many years . I'm currently like actually we can still use the word sober as a part of its rebranding . We just like and and so I'm on that now , because the the modern sobriety movement is the phrase that Kristen bear of creative sobriety , which is like the quintessential voice and face of this movement , is , um , you should look her up , kristen bear of creative sobriety . She just she's got the , the words and she's all up in it and she's she uses that word sober , so I really I warmed up to it , but yeah , I have a . I love that there's there's words that just makes um . It makes it wider and more acceptable and destigmatizes sober and I think that's great for them . You get more of a mass of people that are bringing more wellness into their lives , like that's my thing .

Speaker 2 29:27

I think you've got a really good point there , because sober does still carry with it for some people some negative

The language we use

Speaker 2 29:34

connotations . You know people don't like to say that I'm sober because other people will assume thatations . You know people don't like to say that I'm sober because other people will assume that you know you're in recovery or that you're you're really dull , or . You know there's a lot of assumptions that that go with it , which we all know are incorrect . But people tend to try and move away from that and I think it's really important that people feel comfortable to use the language that they feel best describes themselves , if they choose to describe themselves . Of course , you know you don't have to , you don't have to justify to somebody , as you say quite rightly , why you're choosing not to drink . Because I don't , I don't want to drink , dude , like that's it , end of conversation . But yeah , I mean terms like california , sober , sober , curious .

Speaker 2 30:19

I . I personally like these terms that don't , that don't make it finite or don't make it definite , like give people that space to just say that they want to explore something . You know mindful drinkers or so be curious . I'm curious about what my life could be like . I'm curious about what happens if I make these , these choices , you know I want to check it out for a night or for a week or for a month and see how I feel and if it fits for me . And by allowing people to do that they can feel more welcome in this space .

Speaker 1 30:50

Right when I saw Mindful Drinker right when I saw it it was years ago I was like I like that . It was immediate . Yeah , somebody had used it , I think , in georgia or something , and somebody else used it up in indiana or something , and I was like I like that . So I named my documentary that which you can find on youtube . If you just type in mindful drinker , even if you just type it in on your google search bar , it'll show . It should show a YouTube video with my face on it and it got like multiple awards . It's an 18 minute short doc . I got this grant to do and I ended up spending it on going to three different states , three different cities , in 2021 . So you'll get a little glimpse on where the industry was as I saw it and what I was doing in 2021 , a little run and gun , a short doc . But yeah , I love those phrases . I was so much more into these new phrases to describe this thing .

Speaker 1 31:47

That is an unprecedented shift in people's drinking preferences . It's a massive thing . The trillion dollar alcohol industry . They've had a trajectory that's

Big alcohol

Speaker 1 31:59

gone like this and they are looking at this hockey stick of numbers . That's just like boom . This many people are drinking less or have an interest in it , and they're like oh so , like three years from now , like that's just going to here , that's massive . Because when you're building a business , like that's just going to here , that's massive . Because when you're building a business , you're always building to expand and you're always putting more things in place to be able to do that . If there's something that comes along the way , that's like , it's like oh well , we were building , so we've lost this amount of money and we don't have as many profits . It's a double whammy . And it's like oh , we have to do something . And then , if it comes out , the , the new guidelines that say no amount of alcohol is good from you , like from the , from the organizations that make those guidelines , that is only that can only drop alcohol sales and profits , which is this is this is really massive . It's much , much bigger than people know .

Speaker 1 33:06

And and but I I have to emphasize that this is about people wanting more wellness in their lives .

Speaker 1 33:15

This is about people wanting more wellness in their lives and , while the alcohol industry can get freaked out and scared , like it's an existential crisis for them , it's about people wanting to feel better and it's even about people actually wanting to drink responsibly , because in America they put it on the consumer to be like oh well , if you're not drinking responsibly , then that's on you , so it's not on us , which is totally going to come out and be exposed for being kind of ridiculous , because two-thirds of alcohol's profits are coming from people that aren't drinking responsibly . Two-thirds , like their business plan doesn't work if everybody's drinking responsibly . So I just want to emphasize that like this is about people wanting to feel better and have healthier lives , and big alcohol doesn't need to get so mad and freaked out . They just need to adapt and pivot and provide options like they are , so we have more options when we're out because people are willing to pay for it . You just got to pivot and adapt yeah , absolutely right .

Speaker 2 34:24

You know this is . I always say , this is not a fad , this is a culture shift , you know , and and it's a global culture shift . You made a really interesting point earlier on , actually something I wanted to pick you up on because you were mentioning Gen Z , or Gen Z as you guys would say . And it's interesting being in a bar because , when you know , you and I are both roughly the same age . You know , when we were in our 20s , it was about drinking . Right , you'd go out and it would be .

Speaker 2 34:53

You know , can I get into the bar ? For you guys , you're 21 . You've got to get into the bar . For us , we're 18 . You know , let's get into the bar , get as many drinks in you , party hard . You have have the whole weekend , right , and so now that we're a bit older , when we're looking for different drinks , we might be looking for things that might remind us of what we used to drink . You know , some people like to have that replica . Some people like to have that replica . Some people like to have something completely different . But Gen Z are growing up now and a lot of them are just like shunning the drinks already . They're not doing that first phase that you and I did . So I'm interested . When they're coming into your bar , what are they drinking ? Because they're not looking for something that tastes like beer . Right , when I speak to Dave down the pub , he's like I don't like that because it doesn't taste like my regular pint . But your young guys , they've never had a regular pint , so what do they want stuff to taste like ?

Speaker 1 35:46

Yeah . So the reason Gin Zed is not drinking as much , there's a kind of a perfect storm of reasons . But one of them is you can imagine them being in a formative age during COVID . They were on their phones and they were at home . They may have been just under 21 too , so they weren't drinking with the parents , but they saw their parents drink this could , so they didn't grow up with the taste of it . They saw their parents and they were also on their phones their whole time , so that could have actually wired the brain in a bit . And also , if you're like getting fucked up on alcohol and have social media , that's not a really good mix . Like you look funny , you do something stupid . They don't . They don't want to mess up with anything socially . It's just like . And then alcohol is just kind of like I don't know , ben's drinking is kind of cringe . And then alcohol is just kind of like I don't know , ben's drinking is kind of cringe . This whole there's like this perfect storm of reasons . But they are , and this is just we're talking about half of Gen Z isn't really drinking . So then , as we go into COVID , starting to open up during COVID , they haven't had those parties in their early 20s because it wasn't happening . And then one of the biggest business questions actually is what is Ginzy going to be drinking ? I think about it all the time and I see glimpses of it as to what it could be . I think the main brands that Ginzy is really maybe haven't even been invented yet , but I see things that are functional , adaptogenic , nootropic , alternative energy , the alternative buzz . I think it's going to be the alternative buzz market . I like that phrase . That's the one I use . I think I'm coining that one and I like it because it's .

Speaker 1 37:37

There's things like kava , for example . It's a root , usually comes from Polynesia

Drinks of the future

Speaker 1 37:41

. You mash it into water , makes it a tea . It tastes like dirt but it numbs your mouth . It definitely relaxes your muscles in your body , not so much the head . So it's like this this great wind down , drink , and there's hundreds of kava lounges , which are social spaces that are open during the evening that don't revolve around alcohol .

Speaker 1 38:03

Think about that for a sec . How many places do we know that are open during the evening that don't revolve around alcohol ? Might be a cafe , it might be a tea house , but kava lounges , so a place where you can still get a buzz and that's . And then I see it being places where you can go to connect , that have activities and there's something you're doing there , there's an experience to be had , whether it's the trivia nights or the live music or the open mic nights . There's board games there , there's plants , there's couches , there's people .

Speaker 1 38:46

And that's what I would do if I opened up the next location , and I would also put somewhere in that messaging like this is a place where you could meet somebody . This is a place where you could meet somebody . This is a place where you could connect , because if you go to a cafe , that's actually kind of an antisocial space , as I see it . Sometimes you get two laptops next to each other and somebody is going to say hi to somebody , but really it's a solo event and because you're just already going into a cafe space , not like , oh , I might meet somebody here . But you go to a bar and that's like , ooh , I might meet somebody here .

Speaker 1 39:22

So I would love to have that kind of space where it was like this is a social space and where people connect with others , and I think that would do really well . And what's in the drink is going to be something that has some milligrams of something in it . It's something that you may be able to feel . You know , ashwagandha , rhodiola , reishi , mushrooms that's going to be in these beverages and there will be more things coming out that I think will have this alternative buzz where you really might be able to feel more , more things , and that that could get really popular with with that gender , with that younger generation an alternative buzz ?

Speaker 2 40:01

yeah , I think . I think , um , that's definitely on the cards . I mean , the functional space is just growing at a really , really fast rate , and I think certainly more so on your side of the pond over , you know , because there are certain things that you can't have over here yet that are more permitted in the States . But I think that definitely people are . It's interesting , people are still looking for something right , so they still want some sort of elevation . Some people , not everybody .

Speaker 1 40:32

Not everybody , not everybody .

Speaker 2 40:34

It's enough of a mass of people Not everybody , but it's enough people yeah .

Speaker 1 40:37

It's enough people and I think it's a broader market that is into something that's going to be functional . Yeah , because the ones that may not be into it would be like sober community , like I don't want to feel anything , I'm not trying to get any kind of buzz , and that's a super important and respected section . I just , I think there's this whole market that's like I don't want to drink as much alcohol . Oh , I just learned that there was another option Cool and and uh , getting even just learning about it , getting educated on it and tasting it as a whole experience and then like and then you get to feel something and then it's nice and it's social . Um , I see that being a a big feature . So , yeah , you guys have a whole bunch of functional ingredients . If there's any like commodities , stocks or whatever on functional ingredients , go invest in them now , because the uk is gonna have a whole bunch of it and because I don't even a non-alcoholic whiskey doesn't taste like a whiskey , like let's just call it what it is it's not that great .

Speaker 1 41:43

I can make a great cocktail and a bespoke cocktail that's like here you go and it's going to be delicious , but like I'm not inspired to use a non-alcoholic whiskey , because it doesn't taste like whiskey and it just sets the expectation in a weird spot . I mean , some of them kind of do , but like I'm so much more interested in getting something that's like awesome and inspiring , and functional and and and unique and it's new and like no , these are the drinks of the future . The drinks of the future is in a , a whiskey sour that you know . I mean . I mean , please put a whiskey sour on your menu , at least put something . But like that's not alcoholic . But I'm just so much more inspired to make drinks like check this out , like that's , that's what I want to make , that's what I want to share with people

On the menu at OCB

Speaker 1 42:27

so tell me then what are some of the uh signature drinks that people can find when they go and check you out at ocean beach cafe ?

Speaker 1 42:33

yeah , so I got this core list of drinks and you can find when they go and check you out at Ocean Beach Cafe . Yeah , so I got this core list of drinks and you can think about , like if you went into just a really relevant bar program and they were making just really cool drinks . That's what I have . None of them are like I'm going to try and make this as much like a margarita as I can . I'm not into it . I want something that's going to be a well-made cocktail that goes along the trajectory of just beginning , middle and end , from the way it looks to its finish on the flavor profile . I want that to be great . Finish on the flavor profile I want that to be great . And then , um , I I do want that to be a , a new flavor profile for them to experience . But I still have non-alcoholic whiskey on one of my drinks . I have to .

Speaker 1 43:24

If nobody knows about all this stuff , there are very few of us that are like super well versed in all of it , you know . So everybody's a beginner and they're just like , oh , okay , um , I don't know what to get , but I'll take the one that says non-alcoholic whiskey . I'm like great . And it comes with two other bottles that have some functional ingredients in them that are unique , that they've never seen before , and I'll make the drink for them . I'll show them the three bottles . Like this is the non-alcoholic whiskey , but check these out the social elixir from three spirits and tennison ginger with zero grams of sugar . Like these go together and the destroyer of bad vibes is like .

Speaker 1 43:58

It got number nine of the top 20 most iconic cocktails in the Bay Area Twice , two years in a row . So it's this really complex , dark , deep , long-finished goji berries and amaros liqueurs . It's cinnamon . It's just really interesting drink . Um , it's really novel . And and then I make a bon buzz . It's called a good buzz . Daisy . Bon buzz is another brand from here . You guys don't have it over there , but it's got gaba and 5htp , rhodiola , ashwagandha , caffeine , ginger , mushroom ginger mushroom fiber . It uses purple carrot for its color , so it comes out magenta . No sugar in it , it's got some acid , it's a little spicy , it's just its own thing and I love making drinks with that because it's like there's a little bit of a float , but like it's doing something for me . I make a margarita style drink with it , but it doesn't taste anything like a margarita .

Speaker 2 44:54

And what's that drink called sorry ?

Speaker 1 44:55

It's called the Good Buzz Daisy .

Speaker 2 45:03

The Good Buzz Daisy . That sounds just so complex . And that's what people really want from their non-out cocktails . You want something that's complex and deep and that has got layers of flavor . Because you're right , if people are going , well , I'll just swap a non-out whiskey for a regular whiskey , you're going to be disappointed . You've taken out 40% of what makes the drink . It's not going to taste the same , but when we start mixing them and creating these amazing flavors and using these unique ingredients , then we can come up with something really special and something new , and that's what's really exciting about it .

Speaker 1 45:32

But a lot of the companies are doing it or kind of Frankensteining flavors and extracts together to try to mimic the thing that we know as whiskey , and apparently that pursuit is very difficult to pull off . And I I do now see where the technology has gotten , to a place where I've tasted things that are absolutely their alcoholic counterpart without the alcohol , and that has blown my freaking mind . Now we're talking like new technology , I think will be the change in that . But while that new technology happens and I think it can be successful , so the alcohol analog market can continue to go on , especially for certain generations like gen x and millennials . But more gen x and boomers , um , they need something familiar , yeah , but that functional thing is , is herbalism , is is going to come , is coming back . Herbalism is going to be a part of what we're consuming in our beverages and that's what we can expect .

Speaker 2 46:37

Amazing , amazing . Such good insights , joshua , I have two questions before I let you go , because time has flown on already . I could speak to you all day . First and foremost , if people want to find out more about you , about the bar , about coming down to see you I have people that listen to this podcast all over the world , so hit us up with all the places that we can go to find you .

Speaker 1 47:03

I just reactivated the YouTube channel . It was a little dormant for a while . I am so motivated . So YouTube , it's Josh the non-alcoholic , and you can literally hit youtubecom slash Josh the Non-Alcoholic . And you can literally hit youtubecom slash joshthenonalcoholic . If you want to see a social space , that's just bumping . We doubled our sales essentially in the last year .

Speaker 1 47:23

It's just unbelievable what's going down on Instagram at oceanbeachcafe . So Ocean Beach Cafe being one of the first places in the country to do the thing , it's still like the only one owned by . Like I'm a bartender , so like I come from the industry , so this is fun for me . So go check out Ocean Beach Cafe that's a really fun Instagram account and just kind of scroll down and look at some of the stuff that's going on . So those would be the two main spots . I do have Josh the non-alcoholic on Instagram as well and I do use that very actively because I'm traveling a ton , which is the absolute dream I wanted to travel for non-alcoholic . That was the dream . I'm doing it right now and we have some really , really big things like really big things happening in 2025 . Because there's nobody that's like really defining the look and the feel of this unprecedented time period .

Speaker 1 48:27

Yeah , everybody's kind of hearing about these non-alcoholic beverages and , like , I want to , like , I want for millions of people to see and hear be like hey , this is what just happened and it's pretty cool . And check , this is what's really good . I'm going to make you a drink . Check this out . This is what it is like . Look at this drink . Now you know what this means for the way that we get together and socialize and connect . Now you know what this means for the way that we get together and socialize and connect . It means a lot . So , like , come with us , we're going to tell you all about this . Show you what's good and what this means for , like the way that society gets together . It's massive . So that's my big project Get on a major streaming service , show everybody .

Speaker 2 49:11

Hitting the mass media and reaching the the nations plural . I love it I'm here for it amazing .

Speaker 2 49:20

Um , my , my last question , uh , is one that I ask everyone who comes on the show . Uh , probably be quite easy , or maybe too

BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 49:28

easy for you . You've obviously already mentioned a few great uh brands and drinks . Um , I usually say to people over here imagine it's a hot sunny day and you're on your way to a barbecue , but for you it is a hot sunny day , so you're off to meet some friends , you're not working , you're taking the day off and you're having a barbecue or chilling out on the beach . What drinks do you like to enjoy when you haven't got your work hat on ?

Speaker 1 49:54

that's when I will get a cooler of beer and just drink like it doesn't matter . I love , just I love ipas . Right now the I find some deep cuts that you can't find too many places . Um , that I really enjoy because it makes it a really special occasion . Yeah , and then I I can bonfire at this beach and I have this thing where I put the grill on the fire itself and then I put a big tri-tip steak on it and I put some corn on the cob around it , and that's one of my favorite things of all time to do . And the last time I did that it was definitely the athletic brewing company's tucker's ipa . You won't find it sold in stores but it comes out once a year and it's like this big , big ipa . But then we just did a bonfire with the steak on the grill on the beach in this amazing location right by my house over here , and we brought zeronimo wine .

Speaker 1 50:56

I found the best non-alcoholic red wine in the world . That's not an opinion , that is a fact and it and I can say it like that , because essentially all non-alcoholic reds really missed the mark . I think anybody that's ever bought a non-alcoholic red knows that if they've bought multiple different ones . They're like oh , the rosés and whites can be good , but then the reds none zeronimo wine knocks it way , way out of the park and their sparkling wine is like a cellared champagne , like complex and it's , it's like it's . It's super premium wine and that has absolutely been the go-to , especially with food . It's the best , highest quality food pairing wine . It's unfreaking , believable .

Speaker 2 51:43

Amazing . Those are some amazing , amazing suggestions . The Athletic Brewing I know it's interesting because we get their core range over here in the uk and the beer reviewer that I have for for the magazine a chap called martin dixon who's reviewed over 1500 beers on his instagram page and he always says that the athletic brewing range that they have in the states blows the core range that we get over here out of the water . So I haven't tried that one , but I'm gonna list all of these so that people can go and check them out wherever they are .

Speaker 1 52:17

Excuse me , Thank you for giving us mash gang as well . That's the coolest shit .

Speaker 2 52:21

Yeah , yeah , those guys are just insane . I mean , talk about creativity and just like thinking outside the box . There is no box . These guys are just like well , just what do we feel like doing today ? It's amazing . Joshua , thank you so much for joining me today . It's been awesome talking to you . I can see the passion and I can see that you know you are just being true to what you're trying to create and I , when I managed to make it out there , yours will be number one on the on the list of places to go and check out . So thanks for hanging with me today .

Speaker 1 52:55

Thank you , denise , thanks for making this happen and thanks for letting the world know it's so important . I think something that's really important to me is one of the main fears of somebody's thinking about drinking less is that life isn't going

Josh's final thought

Speaker 1 53:07

to be as fun and that there's not going to be as much color in their life . And it couldn't be more opposite . If you think of all the color that comes back when you're not putting something in your body that kind of takes your vibe down and lower you're , actually your brain literally heals and your body heals because alcohol gets into all parts of your body and what that ends up doing is allowing you to project an energy and attract things in your life and be focused and be driven , and and that's it's . It's . It's actually some kind of superpower . It just was instilled in society so much that this is just what you do and alcohol is the default for any social situation . But that's not the case . And and and and . If so , if you're thinking about it like go for it . Like it , like this is I took a year off drinking .

Speaker 1 53:55

Like why don't you go ? Take a year off drinking ? It's like , yeah , it's a long commitment , so just see what happens . And especially like for me , alcohol was such a big part of my life it was like 90% of my life besides sleeping and when I removed that , it created this massive space to fill and I got excited to see what was going to fill that space . And what filled that space was like everything that I have now , and it's like unbelievable . So just what do you got ? You don't got anything to lose , actually , and you essentially have a whole bunch to gain , and I would I would love for people to just try that and and and see what happens . It's a it's it's . It's a . It's a really good time .

Speaker 2 54:44

That's a perfect sentiment . Removing or reducing alcohol in your life doesn't create a void . It creates space , and you can fill that space with whatever you want . That's . That's a really great sentiment . I love it .

Speaker 1 54:57

Thanks for getting us together , Denise .

Speaker 2 54:59

You're welcome .