Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

We wanted to say , introduce a new variety . We can't just , you know , make a bit in a barrel , a few bottles or a few hundred bottles . It's in the thousands of bottles that we need to do , just to see if it works . So it's not a very easy category to just react to .

Speaker 2 1:28

Before we get started , just a really quick question . Have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom ? Forward slash free gifts . Well you should .

Speaker 2 1:39

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast , the number one UK podcast bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the low and no and light alcohol revolution . Today I am having a conversation with the lovely Dan Harwood , who is the Managing Director for the UK arm of Iceberg Wines . Now , if you've looked at Low and no Wines for any length of time , you have probably come across a bottle of Iceberg . They've done amazingly well at integrating themselves into the blue zones of supermarkets , onto the shelves of your corner shop , and I'm really , really interested to find out today from Dan how that journey has gone , the challenges that they faced along the way and possibly what we can expect to see next from this ubiquitous alcohol-free wine brand , which has been around for almost as long as I have . So I'm feeling a little bit old , but , dan , thank you very much for joining me . How are you today , my dear ? I'm , but , dan , thank you very much for joining me . How are you today , my dear ?

Speaker 1 2:40

I'm well thanks . Thank you very much for having me .

Speaker 2 2:43

Great , great . Well , I'm glad to have you here . It's nice to actually be able to have a proper chat one-on-one , because , for those listening , dan and I have met several times in passing at the various expos and tastings and events . He is the man with the knowledge who is always out there sharing his wares very well , and so it's normally a hello in fleeting passing as you're busy talking to people about the brand . So I'm glad that I get your undivided attention for the next 40 minutes or so . Yeah , I'm ready for a grilling . I'll be gentle with you , I promise , I promise . So , yeah , I mean , I am really excited to get to know more about your brand .

Speaker 2 3:31

Iceberg is one of those that's really led the way in the alcohol free space for quite some time , but that's obviously changed quite a lot .

The Eisberg story

Speaker 2 3:41

Alcohol Change UK refers to you as the granddaddy of alcohol free wine , which I think is a pretty cool title . But before we get too deep into that , then I think it would be really worthwhile sharing how you got to this sort of granddaddy status . So take me back to wherever you think is a good place to start . But what ? What is the iceberg journey that's that's brought it to be so prevalent in everybody's alcohol-free space at the moment ?

Speaker 1 4:14

yeah , absolutely so . Our origins for iceberg , the brand , go back to the mid-1980s , so it is going back quite a long way and always has been an alcohol-free brand . So that's one really important key fact . For us is , when you see Iceberg , you know it's going to be alcohol-free . Through that time the brand has changed a lot , uh , through its look through the grapes , through the production process as well , um . So we at schlossbachenheim we have produced iceberg since 2001 , so we've got going on for 25 years experience of making iceberg and the way that we produce it through vacuum distillation . We've been doing that since 2008 , so this is long before the low and no explosion that we've seen on shelves . So we , we are very much the stalwart , very much the the og , um out free brand and um , yeah , we've . We've got a lot of history and a lot of expertise and we've grown to be one of the biggest in what we do .

Speaker 2 5:14

Yeah , absolutely . I mean , it's hard to look into this space without seeing a bottle of Iceberg , and we'll talk a little bit in a bit about the iterations and the different skews that you've brought out in the range .

Dan's story

Speaker 2 5:30

Tell me a little bit about your personal journey into becoming part of the team at Iceberg , because I'm guessing from the fresh baby face that I can see on the other side of my screen that you weren't necessarily pressing the grapes back in 1985 .

Speaker 1 5:44

No , I was not quite born then , so I was a year away from landing in this world . So my background has always been wine and I think that's what I cherish about the role that I do has always been wine and I think that's what I cherish about the role that I do . So I started my my wine life after university in an independent retailer , so selling wine but also delivering wine tastings . From there it progressed . So I started my journey with the Wine Spirit Education Trust and through their qualifications , reaching to diploma , and also then through teaching those qualifications to others , to the public . So my background has always been around wine , around talking about wine . It's , it's fun . People like talking about wine , people like learning about it . And I continued that journey .

Speaker 1 6:32

So I've also , as I've developed um , started my journey with the institute for master of wine as well , um . So that is quite the challenge and quite the step up , but always it keeps what I'm doing every day in alcohol-free wine grounded in that wine space . So I think it's important for us as a brand that you know , when we're not're not completely out free , we do sell alcohol and we produce alcohol as well . But also we understand what consumers look for , and we know that people that drink iceberg , they drink wine as well , a lot of the time with alcohol , and so we know what people look for , how people interact with varieties or labels or occasion as well . So it's always been grounded in wine , and I've been working on iceberg for about 10 years now , so I you know I have that combination , if you like , of expertise in alcohol-free wine , but also in wine as well .

Speaker 2 7:33

I think that's really interesting because

Why is good low/no wine so hard to find

Speaker 2 7:35

you know , wine wine is alcohol free . Wine is one of the categories in the low no space that really does get the most stick , you know it gets . It's the hardest sort of time . People can be quite unforgiving . I'd be really fascinated to hear some of your thoughts on you know why you think it is that people find it such a challenge going from a full strength wine to an alcohol free wine and what it is that brands like yours are doing to try and make that bridge easier for people to cross .

Speaker 1 8:12

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . You're bang right to say that it's so much more challenging with wine , and you know there are technical reasons for that that we can go into , but on a very top level basis , on a very sort of instinctive basis . Wine is passionate . People are very invested in the wines that they drink so much more so than other categories most of the time . So when you're presented with a glass of wine , almost instinctively the first thing you do is smell it , look at it , swill it around the glass , you , just you treat it with a lot more care than perhaps you would with a pint of beer , for example .

Speaker 1 9:21

So , yeah , the bar is high with wine . People really invest in the varieties that they love , the regions that they love , the pairings that they get put with it . So it's yeah , it's , it's a challenge to meet expectations . And then , coupled with the fact that , yes , it's , it's a challenge , it's more challenging to produce a authentic alcohol free wine than it is a beer or a spirit that perhaps you've got more opportunity for botanicals and you're going to mix it as well . So , yeah , it's definitely a challenge in that level .

Speaker 2 9:54

Yeah yeah , that is . That's a really good point that I often try to make to people is that , um , there's nowhere really for wine to hide , so so . So alcohol free spirits will generally , you know you're not drinking spirits straight for full strength or otherwise . Generally they're mixed with something else , they're made into a cocktail or the surface tonic or soda or something . Beer , you know you've got a much smaller alcohol percentage in beer , so you're generally looking at sort of five percent , you know , in a beer . So the removing the alcohol isn't affecting as much of the liquid . And then you've got wine , which sits in the middle in terms of the percentage when you're talking about full strength , but actually is right at the top of the challenge list when it comes to trying to recreate that in an alcohol-free version .

Speaker 2 10:45

I mean , I can imagine that a brand like yours probably spends a lot of time and money and effort in R&D trying to develop these flavors that can really resonate with people . I know you've recently sort of doubled down , haven't you , in terms of your production and bringing this

Doubling capacity

Speaker 2 11:05

to people . What was the thought behind that ? I mean , is it just that you're seeing such a growth in interest ? Is there sort of what was behind that decision to make such a commitment to the category .

Speaker 1 11:20

So we do see the growth potential for ourselves and the category . So you know that makes the decision easier when you're spending a lot of money and a lot of time doubling your capacity Alongside as we see the market develop and we talk about great varieties . An increase in capacity allows us not just to make more of what we already do but also to play around a little bit more . We've got a little bit more freedom and scope to try new varieties , because it's not easy If we wanted to say introduce a new variety . We can't just make a bit in a barrel , a few bottles or a few hundred bottles . It's in the thousands of bottles that we need to do just to see if it works .

Speaker 1 12:04

So it's not a very easy category to just react to and develop and play around with , but this new machine does allow us to do it . But also it's a improves our quality as well . It's a new machine . It's doing it the same way , the same principle of vacuum distillation , but it's brand new , so it's more efficient . It works at lower temperatures , so delivers more quality , more character in the wine and also it uses less energy . It's better for the environment because dealkalization is quite an energy intensive process and so having something that's more efficient . We've got more solar panels as well to deliver the energy . It just helps us in that sustainability as well as moderation .

Speaker 2 12:51

Fantastic . Can you explain , just for those who are listening or watching that might not be completely au fait what is a process of de-alkalization ? How does that work ? To produce a wine ?

Speaker 1 13:03

Yeah , so there's a couple of major

What is dealcoholisation?

Speaker 1 13:06

ways to do it , but the way that we focus on is called vacuum distillation . So this is a . The piece of kit that we've got is the original one is a 19 meter high glass still . So it is the same principle as if you're producing a spirit through distillation , but we do this under a vacuum . So under a vacuum that boiling point for the alcohol is a lot , lot lower , and in our new machine it's actually in the in the high 20 degrees celsius , so not that much above room temperature .

Speaker 1 13:34

So we put the wine with alcohol into the machine , and that's important for us . It's always wine with alcohol . So we we don't create something using grape juice . We want a finished wine that you could drink and then de-alkalize it . So we put it through the distill um up to those high 20 degrees c and the alcohol will evaporate . And we can continue that until we get to below 0.05 . So we label as 0.0 um . The alcohol in it is low enough to do that . It's just a trace amount , that same old I'm sure you said it before same in a banana , same in sourdough , same in orange juice or more than in those things . So we de-alcoholize to a very low level , and it allows us to retain more character and also deliver something as close to the real thing as we think we can get okay , okay , and yes , you're right .

Speaker 2 14:31

I've said those examples many , many times , as I'm sure you have to . I need to start finding some other things to compare it to yeah , exactly so let's stick with uh , with the , the , the drinks themselves .

Speaker 2 14:46

Then can you take me through

The Eisberg range

Speaker 2 14:49

um the journey of the the range in iceberg , because I've got um three lovely bottles here which we can talk about in detail , but obviously behind you for those who are watching this on youtube you can see there's quite a a few more um . And then in front of me , because I've got a really , really hard life , I've got two beautiful uh glasses here . So I'm getting um not drunk at 11 o'clock in the morning , drinking your sparkling and your beautiful , beautiful uh red , which I believe is one of your new ones .

Speaker 1 15:19

So take me through the range oh well , I feel left out now . So I'm gonna , as I talk , pour myself a glass , because I'm never far away from a wine glass and a bottle of wine . This is a beauty , um , yeah . So , as I mentioned , like iceberg goes back to the mid 1980s , so that's a long time and the brand has existed , um , as one range for almost all of that life .

Speaker 1 15:46

And as alcohol free and as low and no develops as a category , it becomes much , much more apparent that you can't get by on a range of four or five wines alone . You know people want choice . As people get into the category , they realize there are more and more occasions for alcohol-free and therefore more and more opportunities to have something different . And our mission as we go into next year and beyond , is to make sure that for every glass it could be alcohol-free and for every occasion it can be alcohol-free as well . So , wherever there is a wine , if you find yourself pouring a glass of alcohol-free wine , think could this be sorry with alcohol ? Could this be an alcohol-free moment ? Sorry with alcohol , could this be an alcohol-free moment ?

Speaker 1 16:33

So we've developed Iceberg into a family over the past 18 months . It's relatively new for us , so we have our signature range , so our everyday easy drinking range . So for us , signature it's our bread and butter , it's what we're known for , it's what you've seen for so long and we've recently relabeled that as as signature . Then we've got our selection . So our selection is our premium offering . So this is when you've got those special moments , or if you want to just spend a bit more for your wine free alcohol , free wine and it works the same way as with regular wine If you pay a bit more you'll get better quality . Same with any wine , really . So Iceberg Selection is designed to be a little bit more without compromise , a little bit more authentic in what we can do .

Speaker 1 17:24

And then we have our special wines , like we've got Iceberg Mould , as it's the season at the moment for a glass of mulled , yeah . So we want again it's those same moments . Thank you very much . If there is , you know it's those occasions where you're having a mulled wine or if you're making a batch of mulled wine for people at home , there might be someone that's driving , there might be someone that's moderating , and so it's making sure that there's that choice and that moment can still be celebrated . Same with the fizz you've got is if it's a toast or celebration , or New Year's Eve or a wedding . You can be part of it , you can enjoy , and still you know moderate at the same time .

Speaker 2 18:12

And still you know moderate at the same time , yeah , so this is this beautiful one that I have here , which is your iceberg Blanc de Blanc from your selection range . Yeah , and I think absolutely you're right . You know having something for those moments , whatever those moments are , because the use of alcohol-free wines is exactly the same as the use of alcohol-full wines . You know , it's still once people start to recognize that it's about the ritual and it's about the behavior and it's about the patterns and what that signifies . You can still have your unwinding glass of wine after , you know , a stressful night , a stressful day at work . Or you can still have your special occasion . You know , like you said , we're coming up to the season and you want some lovely bubbles , to be able to feel like you're part of the Christmas party and to not have . There's not really an excuse anymore is there for companies and venues to not be able to provide something so that everybody can feel like they're part of it exactly .

Speaker 1 19:13

It's the the more we work to improve our quality and our choice , the more we start to remove those barriers and remove those , those blocks that people might have . Um , and yeah , like you said , the occasion doesn't need to be any different just because it's alcohol free for yourself or for everybody . So we were last week just at a sober book launch so a promotional event launching a new book and everything was alcohol free there . So we had the fizz that you've got there as the arrival drink and the toast , and it was a party . It didn't . It was no different . It was still people chatting , enjoying themselves , having a glass of wine and a mix of people that were sober and people that weren't . And we're just quite happy to have a Wednesday night where you didn't wake up the next day feeling a bit dodgy . Yeah .

Speaker 2 20:07

Yeah , absolutely so . In terms of the range , then and you know obviously you've introducing some new products or some new SKUs at the moment I mentioned in the introduction that you're quite ubiquitous within the space you can be found on many shelves . Can you talk to me a little bit about you know how that journey has been . You know how that journey has been because you know a lot of people struggle with finding wines that the alcohol-free wines that they like , whether or not they should just be going into the supermarket and grabbing any old bottle off the shelf , whether they should be going to specialists for yourselves at Iceberg . You know sort of getting your brand in front of people so that they know that this is a choice that they can trust . How has that journey been over the last sort of a couple of decades ?

Speaker 1 21:01

Yeah , it has been . It's been fantastic for us because we were there at the beginning , so we were very much in it and at the ground level as this started to build up , and because we had that expertise , we were the trusted partner for consumers but also for our retail partners as well , and it has been a journey for the retail market , for those big supermarkets , about where it sits , where it's alcohol free , how do we talk about it ? Do we have it all together , those questions like where do people expect to find it ? And that has been . You know , we have come a long way as a category in retail and as producers to make sure that it's easy to find , easy to identify .

Speaker 1 21:48

So , if we're talking , our signature range , the great variety , is there quite clearly to say oh , you like Sauvignon Blanc , here's your Sauvignon Blanc . You want alcohol-free , here's the alcohol-free section . So consumers , supermarket shoppers who are time poor , want to go in and want to find it and want to go away happy with a brand that they know , a brand that's consistent , a brand that's reliable and a decent price point as well . As we develop the range and again it goes back to that every glass , every occasion that opens up opportunities for other points of sale , so other ways that you might buy wine , whether it's through an independent specialist or a large wine retail chain . There are more and more opportunities to where Iceberg can sit and where Alcohol Free can sit . So again , wherever you get your wine , you can get your Alcohol Free . Yeah .

Speaker 2 22:43

And you know , with Iceberg , you know there's we mentioned the range you know there's quite a lot to choose from . So I've got your website open here , as , as we're , we're talking , um , so yeah , so uh , if there is a little pause in the in the editing there , guys , there's just a slight technical issue , but we're now back to our regularly scheduled programming . Um , wonders of modern technology , so I was just sharing that . So , within your , your signature range , you've got . The first one I can see on your website is your mold , which is obviously your festive wine , and I'm presuming that can be used exactly the same way as you would a traditional mold wine .

Speaker 1 23:22

Yeah , all you have to do is warm it up with a garnish , with an orange , and it's ready to go .

Speaker 2 23:27

That's it , we love it . We love it when it's easy . And then there's a servillon blanc and a chardonnay and a rosé , and then in your um , your selection , you're more . Would we refer to that as your more premium end range ? Um ,

Bestsellers

Speaker 2 23:44

that's got your the blanc de blanc which I have here . Uh , you're sparkling the . Uh , your pinot noir , pinot grigio and a sparkling rose . So that's quite a lot that people can go and and find from you . Do you find that , within the ranges I know that the , the selection is , uh , newer ? Do you find that people are tending to lean more towards one type or another ?

Speaker 1 24:11

um , so we our biggest seller is our is our signature range . Um , it's , it's in the most uh supermarkets . It's been going the longest . Um , in that range we focus on what are the more popular varietals . So in the whites , whether it's sauvignon blanc or chardonnay , and in the reds , merlot , cabernet , sauvignon but it's representing or replicating what are the most popular varietals in wine in the UK in the retail side of things , and so it's always important for us that those are represented . And you know people will choose Sauvignon Blanc over Chardonnay or the other way around , and Merlot over Cab the other way around , depending on your preference .

Speaker 1 24:49

We want to make sure that that opportunity is there . With our selection we also considered what is not as well represented . You know it's an opportunity for us to try new things , like with our Pinot Noir , and also , you know , take into account how the market has come on and how our expertise have improved on and how our expertise have improved . So like with the pinot noir , for example . It's , for me , my favorite because to de-alkalize a pinot noir , it's it's a little bit easier to get that authenticity and that you know that get close to that real thing feeling , if you like , it's a lot easier . Pinot noir is a bit of a lighter variety , not so much body or tannin as cabinet sauvignon , for example . So we're not fighting against it . In the same way , we are working with the variety in order to express , express the grapes a lot more . So , yeah , it's through our selection range . We just have that opportunity for smaller production but also trying new things and bringing a few more interesting varieties into alcohol free .

Speaker 2 25:57

With your background , with your training at the WSET and doing your master

How to enjoy alcohol-free red wine

Speaker 2 26:03

in wine , what advice do you have for people who struggle with alcohol free reds ? Because it's one of the areas that I get asked about the most and I'm sure it must be the same for you . I personally think that you know we've got to keep supporting this industry . We've got to keep giving it people and brands the opportunity to keep working on their , on their liquids , and to keep improving them . But a lot of people struggle to find alcohol free reds that they enjoy , that they feel can replace their other favourites , other than , of course , going out and getting yourselves a couple of bottles of Iceberg . From your sort of professional tasting background , what tips can you give people about how to find , enjoy and appreciate alcohol-free red ?

Speaker 1 26:50

wine . Yeah , that's a fair question and it goes back to how far you've got to go to get back to the real the taste , like a wine with alcohol and red wine has further to go than white wine , just like wine has further to go than beer . So you are really pushing it of how you can deliver that same character , because there is so much more with red wine , because of not just the alcohol but the body that you get through , that the tannin and also the complexity of aroma and flavor that you know is is more prevalent in a red than a chilled white wine , for example . Um , it goes back also to that . You know how invested we are in our wines and red wine . If you would talk about , you know , being under the microscope . Red wine is very much . You know being interrogated .

Speaker 1 27:42

When you have a glass of red wine in front of you , you really do pay attention , you really do think about it . Like you said , there's nowhere to hide , and that's especially true with red . I would say a couple of things . One is , you know , give it a chance , keep trying . Um , you will learn to love it , I can tell you . I can tell you that from experience as well and pair it with food , like just try different foods as well , enjoy it in different situations . Um , or , you know , we also say with , particularly with our signature range try a cocktail , try it as a cobbler . You know , mess around with it a little bit more , it doesn't necessarily mean , you know , it's a red wine , therefore you have to have it in a big red wine glass and therefore have to have it with steak . You know , it's that same opportunity of just playing around and I encourage people to do that with any wine that they've got , whether it's alcohol free or not great advice and I think you're right .

Speaker 2 28:38

You know we've got to . We've got to give wine a chance . Yeah to to coin a paraphrase um and to to . You know , really give it the opportunity and to get rid of that stereotype . You're right that red wine with steak and white wine with fish . One of the most exciting things about alcohol-free drinks in general is that you get to rewrite the rules .

Speaker 2 28:59

You can just give it a try and see what else you can enjoy with it absolutely I wanted to uh ask you as well , if , if , if I may and I'm not sure how much time you may spend

Alcohol-free in Germany

Speaker 2 29:10

uh in in icebergs motherland , but obviously germany is where this , this one , originated . Um , and I know that germany has quite an interesting uh relationship with with alcohol free , I know in terms of beers . Um , because of the way the brewing system works , actually there are more alcohol-free beers brewed in germ Germany than there are anywhere else in the world . What's the wine situation , like you know , for brands like yours in Germany ? Is it being sort of well received and celebrated , or are you finding that it's definitely more of a UK consideration ?

Speaker 1 29:53

Yeah , so I'm over there quite a bit . So at least once a month I'll spend time over in germany um to learn the market there and also work on iceberg um at schlossbachenheim . We have different brands as well , so in germany we focus more on a brand called light life , which has a lot of similarities with iceberg um in the mix , in the marketing and that kind of side of things . We sell more of Light Live in Germany than Iceberg in the UK . So there is a bigger market . It's the market leader for us over there .

Speaker 1 30:29

But I think one interesting difference really in how alcohol-free wine is consumed and enjoyed in Germany versus UK is in UK there's perhaps a smaller group of people that drink alcohol-free wine , but they drink it more regularly . So they're very much . You know I am into alcohol-free wine either through not drinking at all or through moderation wine either through not drinking at all or through moderation , whereas in germany it's more of an occasion drink , but it's in that occasion more ubiquitous . So if there is any kind of celebration with some sparkling wine , there is an alcohol-free sparkling that goes with it . So people are not drinking it day to day at home but there are . So there are many more occasions where people who do drink will introduce an alcohol free in the mix , which I think is what we talked about at the top . Is that's what we want to get to . We want to get those occasions where where there is alcohol free , where , with alcohol that there is alcohol free , going with it as well yeah , absolutely so .

Speaker 2 31:32

It's not , and I think it's really important message . It's not just about saying this is just for people who don't drink . You know , I think one of the most important things about our space is that we're opening it up to people who just want to choose not to drink for that occasion yeah so it's great to hear that that is sort of part and parcel of the way it's enjoyed in other places yeah , definitely , and it can be part of your repertoire as a wine drinker .

Speaker 1 31:56

And it's changed . You know the way I drink as well . You can't see , but off camera there's 200 , 300 bottles of wine stacked up of wine with alcohol . Like I drink wine as well . I drink alcohol . I absolutely love it , but I can't love it every single day because you know it just doesn't work when it is so easy to access . It doesn't mean that you just should , and for me , moderating is part of my job just as much as tasting and enjoying wine with alcohol as well .

Speaker 2 32:36

Yeah , and I can imagine that a lot of people who are finding a brand like yours because it's so accessible are doing it from that moderation standpoint as well , that sort of let's buy something that we can have as well as having the alcohol for those times when we can't afford to love it as much as we normally do yeah , absolutely we've mentioned briefly .

Speaker 2 32:59

You know that you , you , you can be found in a lot of spaces , uh , in the in the uk . For those people that are listening now want to go and give iceberg a try , and they've heard about all the fantastic wines in the range and they think , right , this is me , I'm gonna go and give it a go . Where can they go to find , uh , more about you , more about the brand , and buy some of your wonderful absolutely so , um , well , you can find more about me on socials , um , particularly insta at dan harwood wine .

Speaker 1 33:26

Quite easy to remember um iceberg . I would say go to the website , icebergcouk , or on socials , iceberg wine , and you can find a lot more information . We've been recently putting up a lot more tutorial videos , if you like , um , on how to enjoy alcohol free , on how alcohol free is made , on the range that we've got , on food to pair with um , so you can find those , particularly on instagram as well , um , with yours truly . Then , in terms of where to go and buy , so we're stocked in a range of major supermarkets like Tesco and Morrisons , and Co-op online on Ocado and Amazon . A few shout out particularly to Iceberg Mould behind us , that is in Tesco now .

Speaker 1 34:10

So very much go out and enjoy the season with Iceberg Mould , go now . And so very much go out and enjoy the season with iceberg mold . And , very excitingly , we have recently introduced iceberg selection , a pinot noir , onto shelf in morrison's as a treat for the christmas period . So you can also find um . You know that that fantastic wine that we've both been drinking is is there and ready to go on shelby morrison's and cheers and more . Uh , exciting listings are coming , but I can't quite talk about them

What's next for Eisberg?

Speaker 1 34:41

yet oh , you're teasing me , because that was going to be my next question .

Speaker 2 34:45

I was going to ask you know what , what could be next for a brand that that's that's seeing such success as yours ? Obviously , you still have challenges to handle , but but what's next on the sort of to-do list for for a brand like yeah ?

Speaker 1 34:59

so I mean there's there's still work to do in selection , in our premium and , and we are looking at how we introduce a still rose into that mix , something very along the lines of provence very , very pale , very delicate , you know , hitting that . You know , summertime glass of Provence en Rose with a few olives , or something like that . Also for the summer you know we've got Mulder winter variant we're looking at a range of spritz cocktails that will complement the summer , so elderflower and limoncello and things like that . And a big part of where we want to go next is looking at different formats . Again , every glass , every occasion . So where else do people enjoy , uh , wine that can be out and about . So whether it's a format like a canned format that people can easily grab and go alcohol free and take it around the mates or take it to a festival , take it camping , all those kind of things . So more and more opportunities and occasions , that's what we're looking for .

Speaker 2 36:05

Brilliant . That sounds very , very exciting . I appreciate that you don't want to let too much go so I won't press too much on that , but I am very excited , particularly by the lovely blush I love a blush and you know to be able to sit in a beer garden on a sunny day and have a beautiful pale pink glass of something that I can enjoy and still feel like I can like really be part of that British summer pub time environment .

Speaker 1 36:32

I'm very excited about that one . When I'm next over in Germany , we're going to be doing more work on that and a little sort of behind the scenes insight on when we are producing , for example , like an alcohol-free still rose in that style . If we're after Provence , you know we'll taste Provence rose . We'll pick up a range of different Provence roses with alcohol and benchmark against it and identify . You know , what are people looking for , what is essentially has to be part of this wine , and so it's important

The role of customer feedback

Speaker 1 37:02

for us that when we are developing new ranges in alcohol free , that we think of alcohol wine and have that in mind and we have that consumer in mind .

Speaker 2 37:13

Um , when we develop the , the product here's a question I I don't often get the opportunity to ask , but do you , um , does feedback from consumers work for you in terms of you know what you're producing and what you're developing , what people want to see next and what you've already made and and how it's how it's hitting ? Because I often think that making this conversation as open as possible has got to be part of the key to helping the sector , um both your individual part of it and , on a wider scale , to to grow , and I and I often wonder how brands go about managing understanding exactly what it is that the consumer is really looking for yeah , um .

Speaker 1 37:55

So there's a couple of things that we do . I mean , an absolute key part of of any strategy for an alcohol-free wine brand or really alcohol-free brand is is sampling , is getting people to taste it , getting people to you know , understand that what you might have tasted , even five years ago , 10 years ago , it's different . Now it's come a long way and there is more opportunity and more choice , and so getting people to sample , that's the key part for us . We do that in a few different environments . So last year we were at the baby show , we were at the wedding show , we were at the Great North Run , we were at different cycling events , and so it's giving those opportunities of people that you know are , or should be or will be thinking about moderation , um , whether it's through I've got a park run on a saturday , so therefore can't drink that much on a friday , or I've got a wedding to think of , um , I need something for the toast all those occasions .

Speaker 1 38:53

So sampling is a big part of what we do . And then we also make sure that we have the right consumer research and um panel groups and that kind of thing . So , when , how are people drinking it ? That's important for us as a market is as a major market player . It's important that we know exactly how people are enjoying it , what they look for , what kind of price they expect to see , what varieties , what occasion they're drinking it on . So we do a lot of that research as well .

Speaker 2 39:22

That's fantastic . I think it just it has to . That two way communication has to keep going because we , you know , we've got to give people what it is that they're looking for within the realms of what it is that we can produce . They're looking for within the realms of what it is that we can produce , but to know what it is that that's going to help , you know , the average Joe or Josephine down the street know that they've got something that's being made for them to enjoy and that brands care about their experience , I think is just so important . People need to know in this space , whatever their reasons are for choosing to go low , know that they are cared about and it's not just people throwing liquids at them , but actually trying to make something that makes their lives better .

Speaker 1 39:59

Yes , yeah , also with um also delivering things that maybe they've not thought about as well because , for example , the pinot noir , nobody asked for that . It was very much us saying , yeah , we know what we're doing and we know what we can do and bring that to market , and you know it's . It's a combination of listening to people and also Having the confidence in what you're doing to be able to deliver something new .

Speaker 2 40:26

Absolutely , absolutely . Dan , before I let you go , I have one final question for you . I have one final question for you , which is something I ask everybody who comes on the show , because I'm all about

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 40:36

spreading the low and no love to all of low and no nation around the world . So we are in recording towards the end of the year now , so it's not sunny at all . So I'm going to need you to expand your imagination forward to the summer and imagine that you are off to a barbecue at a friend's house now you're bringing along some drinks , because that day you don't feel like drinking full strength alcohol for whatever reason other than the amazing selection of iceberg wines , which , of course , will be top of the list . What else do you like to enjoy on days when you're choosing not to even buy alcohol in the low , no , or light spectrum ?

Speaker 1 41:17

Yeah , absolutely so in terms of beers . So usually in our fridge it's Athletic Brewing Company from the US , or it's Lucky Saint , particularly their new IPA as well . That's what's in our fridge at the moment but also RTDs like canned cocktails , like Ish I really like the Ish daiquiri . I could . If I was a barbecue , I could drink that all day long .

Speaker 2 41:43

Fantastic , fantastic . You know , that's one brand . I haven't actually got around to trying it , but I've had very , very good things and now that's all the more reason for me to go and give it a try . Dan , thank you so much for joining me today . It has been a pleasure , um , to finally have a proper conversation with you , um , and I really appreciate your , your openness about the journey that um iceberg has has been on and and what you're moving towards in the future . So keep up the fantastic work and thank you so much .

Speaker 1 42:12

Thank you very much .