Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

A little thing is legal drinking age . I mean , we are deliberately and very clear that we are adults , not out of the brand , even though it's 0.5% . But I don't ever want to be in a situation and I've seen it where you end up in a gateway . So I have a 10-year-old son and he said to me the other day with one of the zero beers he said , dad , so is it all right for me to drink this and then when I'm older , I can drink the real thing ?

Speaker 2 1:37

Before we get started , just a really quick question . Have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom ? Forward slash free gifts ? Well you should . Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the low , no and light alcohol revolution . Today is a wonderful conversation . I'm chatting with a gentleman who has gone from Royal Marine Commando to financial services and pharmaceuticals to global CEO of a very well-known vodka brand and is now embarking on his own new venture as the CEO of Diony Life , not to mention being awarded an MBE by our late and great queen . So it is an honour to have our guest here today , and he is a font of knowledge in the beverage space and , as I said to him before I press record , I want to squeeze as much of that knowledge out of him as I comfortably can . So thank you very much for joining me today . Damian McKinney , how are you ?

Speaker 1 2:40

Denise , I'm really well and feel humbled by the introduction . Thank you .

Speaker 2 2:44

Oh well , it's honestly it's lovely to have you here . You've done some fantastic stuff in and around beverages for quite some time and I'm really intrigued to get your perspective , obviously , on the Lono market , what's happening in it at the moment , where you see it going and how Gionni life has come about to be and what its impact is going to be in the space . But

Damian's story

Speaker 2 3:06

before we get into all that , I'd like to give listeners a little bit of a background on who they're spending time with today . So start where you want to start . What is it that's led you to now be in this low no space with us ?

Speaker 1 3:19

Thanks , denise . I suppose the first headline is I'm a third generation Kenyan , grew up in Kenya , had the most amazing childhood and at the age of 13 , at a Sunday lunch , my family introduced me to a bottle of Tusker beer . Many would say , 13 years old , that sounds like abuse . No , it was . Essentially . Here is a family occasion . It is a social occasion . Everybody's having a drink . We're going to teach you how to have a drink and enjoy it , and so every Sunday after that I was allowed to have one bottle of Tusker beer and enjoy it . No spirits were ever allowed , that was the rule and no wine , but you could have a beer . And so I grew up understanding , I think , the social benefit in a sense of having a drink and enjoying it and enjoying the taste of it . The sort of second headline is , as you rightly said , I was a Royal Marine Commander .

Speaker 1 4:22

I spent 18 years . I spent a lot of time , as US colleagues would say , on active duty , on operations , as we would describe it in the UK , and one of the things we would do and sometimes we were on , I was out for three weeks , four weeks on operation , so we would come back in and one of the first things we would do is go down to the good old Nafi or the bar and we would buy . I like whiskey , so I would buy some whiskey and some beer , quite a bit of it at the time and then we would sit there , we would clean our weapons and we would do a debrief . And part of that debrief , to be honest , was actually getting the experiences out of you . And you know that in the military there's been a huge issue with PTSD and people . Certainly , when I joined it was still relatively new this concept and there was a lack of real understanding . But the advantage of having a drink at the end of the day is and if I go back to the social occasion , it brings people together and allows them to share their experiences , good and bad . And I think , look , I've had my share of PTSD . I know a lot of colleagues who've had a lot worse before . But in a way what helped was actually this ability to , and indeed encouragement to , talk and I think absolutely the drinking helped , without obviously extremes . So that's the two .

Speaker 1 5:45

And then my third headline is , in a sense , given all of that , I've seen the sort of positive benefits of it . But there is the other side of the coin . I've also seen the negativity associated with it and one of those was , frankly , when I first came to the UK , I had never witnessed binge drinking . I'd never witnessed this desire to go out and get paralytically drunk , to get inverted commas , rat ass . I used to look at people go why , why would you want to go through that experience ? I just frankly , I found it really odd .

Speaker 1 6:21

And then I think the extension of that was my son . When he was in California he spent a couple of years over there . We were talking about this and he said , dad , and he was helping out with the Alcoholics and Drug Anonymous . And he said , have you been to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting ? And this was at a time when I was doing a lot of work with the agio and some of the brands and of course the great cry is drink responsibly . And I said , no , I haven't , I want to come along . And I sat in on that first meeting and I've done .

Speaker 1 6:47

I've done a number since and of course you listen to the harrowing tale of the individual who'd gone through this alcoholism and you know what the effect on me was , not so much listening to their personal story , which in itself was tragic , but it was the effect on their partners , their family , the community , particularly the ones they loved the most , and the abuse that they were putting them through . And I remember thinking this is hideous . And then , of course , then you hideous , um , and then , of course , then you go back and then there's an aspect of , you know , volume associated with alcohol and therefore having encouraging people to take shots it's great fun , but again , it's good sales and you just realize that this cannot be right . You know the idea of socializing and having a drink is a good thing , but encouraging that , that extremism , cannot be good . And I know that addiction is one of those things that people may or may not have an association with , but we were encouraging it in a sense . And then I think the final piece is , at the end of the day , there is a wealth now of knowledge and encouragement from the world . Health and others say be careful . Um , now I know a lot of people say well , that's ridiculous , it's prohibitionist .

Speaker 1 8:03

Jumping on the bandwagon , I wear a fitbit and I and I bought a fitbit I don't know , it must be six , six , six years ago and I bought it because I've been trained never to have more than five hours sleep a night . That was , that's what you do . You don't need more than that . But wrong , you do need more than that . And so I bought it , really so I could look at it and somehow rewire my system to start sleeping more .

Speaker 1 8:27

And what I discovered in the process ? Because , of course , you look at the dashboard and I'm a very competitive individual you look at the dashboard and you suddenly realize that , okay , my sleep is going up or down . But then you start to look at your beats per minute and you realize that if you have more than a couple of drinks a night , then I mean , typically , my heart rate I'm reasonably fit was about 44 resting at night , it would go to 54 . And you just look at that and you go , it will

Moderation & inclusivity

Speaker 1 9:00

go to 54 . And and you just look at that and you go , that's , that's fact , that is an absolute fact .

Speaker 1 9:03

So so if you take the binge and the , the alcoholics , um , anonymous , and then you take the , the knowledge , and I'm seeing if I , you know , I went back to what I've always , always believed , that I'm not anti-alcohol , I'm a really big believer in inclusivity and but I'm a real believer in moderation and therefore that's what's taken me to , frankly , where I am now . I feel like I can go and have a , have a few non-alcoholic beers , I can have a , have a drink , have a whiskey , but I can get in my car and drive home safely and I can get up in the morning and feel great and enjoy the sunshine and go to the gym . That's my journey and that's where I am Love it .

Speaker 2 9:39

And I love it too , damien , I do . I'm very much a big proponent of the moderating lifestyle , however that looks for somebody . You know there's a lot of people that bite back at the term moderation and they always assume that it means that you know well , if you have to count your drinks , then you're not , you've got a problem . Or if you , if you're only allowed to have this , that and the others . But moderation doesn't have to work like that . My own journey into this life was me passively moderating Cause I just realized , like you , that the alcohol was having a deeper impact on parts of my life than I had recognized before and therefore I just didn't want to drink as much . So I moderated my drinking to only having something when there was a glass of wine I really really liked , or , you know , I really felt like , yeah , this is a good time for me to have a drink . The rest of the time , I felt empowered to actually go . Do you know what ? I don't fancy it today , so I'm not going to .

Speaker 1 10:31

I like that a lot and I think . But you know , I had a conversation this morning . I love you get in a taxi and you always end up having a great conversation the taxi driver and they're the fun knowledge . But , funny enough , we're talking about extremism and I I've always been concerned about , about people who say so , alcohol is , you know , there's a whole negativity . So if you , if you drink alcohol , you're the scourge , you're evil , um , but there there's a flip side , which is that if you stand there and say it's all about being non-alcohol , then equally you're an extremist . I don't know . Look , I mean there's a risk getting in my car , but I get in my car because it's a .

Speaker 1 11:07

Somebody once said to me if you could take all the negativity , if you could keep the alcohol but take the ethanol out in a way that that's a big part of it . And so my view at the end of the day is I really believe in inclusivity , I really believe we have a lot of mental health issues out there and part of the pandemic , you stick somebody in a room on their own and force them to go through isolation . It's not fair , it cannot be good , and I think that we live in a world today where we just actually want to increase people's opportunity to socialize and be inclusive and so forth , and therefore , why wouldn't we provide safe alternatives and , by the way , I also believe in maturity of people just educate them and just allow them to make their own choices around what the risk is . But , importantly , I think moderation is a safe way of drinking but at the same time enjoying yourself . So I'd hate to be the extremes .

Speaker 2 12:03

I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet , as they say on that one .

Drinking responsibly

Speaker 2 12:07

There's something I want . You mentioned a phrase there . I wasn't planning on asking this , but it's actually something that I found quite interesting because it's a phrase that gets a lot of people's backs up . You were saying in your past , working for big alcohol I'm using inverted air quotes there the phrase was drink responsibly . Now , a lot of people in this space find that term , should we just say , ineffective , the , their reasoning being that you know , if you're encouraging somebody to drink , is it responsible ? Is it fair to ask them to do so responsibly ? What are your thoughts on that phrase ? Do you think the term drink responsibly actually has any power ? Does it have any ? Uh , does it help people or does big alcohol just use it to sort of go right , we've ticked that box and we're OK now .

Speaker 1 12:59

Look , I mean , the first thing is , I would say and I was part of big alcohol I think there's some very good people who do care and I don't believe they're sitting there going . I just want to kill people by giving to drink as much as possible or destroy their lives . I give them to drink as much as possible or destroy their lives . I don't . And I think that behind there is a positive intent here which is genuinely people want to do what I was suggesting earlier on , which is just drink less . Enjoy the experience . Please , just don't drink too much . There's a genuine desire for that , so that's positive . However , I've never been a huge lover of the drink responsible term because , whilst I understand the intent , the issue at the end of the day is where do you draw the line and where do you ? You know , people's definition of responsible is very , very different .

Speaker 1 13:53

And I'll give you an example One of the things that I was anti , which was Christmas time , you know . So everybody , go out and have a good time . I'm going to encourage you to drink responsibly and therefore , so , rather than you get in your car , I will provide a cab , free cab home . What are you actually saying ? You're really saying , therefore , you get paralytically drunk and we'll put you in a cab and we'll somehow cart you home . So the intent then unfortunately falls into the wrong spaces .

Speaker 1 14:24

So I think we've got to be much more careful about it , and I think , if anything and my colleagues and big up may not like this I would rather people say do you know what ? There is a risk , yeah , fact so . So for years and years , we pushed this point that it's called the j curve . You know it's all right to have a couple of drinks , but , by the way , they're actually good for you , um , and therefore it's okay , the is , it's not . I can't , I can't honestly sit down with all the evidence and say it's a good thing . So I would rather say to you same as a car , same as all these other pursuits , you know , whether you're parachuting or otherwise , there is a degree of risk . I need you to understand that , and therefore what I'd like you to do is be careful how much you drink . That's actually a more responsible way of thinking about it , rather than just ignoring it .

Speaker 2 15:14

And I think that goes back to what you said before about educating people and giving them the facts , or whether that is about low and low and light alcohol or full strength alcohol . One of the things I'm hoping to do with Low and Low Drinker and the podcast and the magazine is to give people information so that they can make , make informed choices , whether that's choosing to drink , to moderate , to go teetotal , whatever it is , but having some facts behind you and and that's facts and not fear , because one of the dangers is that in this space a lot of people can go , as you mentioned the word , sort of extreme to the other end . You know alcohol is bad for you , it's evil , it's the devil , it's going to give you cancer , it's going to ruin your life . Well , actually , the vast majority of the population moderate .

Speaker 2 15:56

We all do so it's about giving the people the facts about these drinks so that they can make wiser choices . And sometimes they won't make wise choices . Sometimes I didn't make wise choices . I'm sure you've made a few foolish choices in your past .

Speaker 1 16:10

I've made a few . I promise you that .

Speaker 2 16:14

But you know , it's about empowering someone to know that they do have a choice in the first place , which I think a lot of people don't often recognize .

Speaker 1 16:22

Absolutely no . I completely agree .

DioniLife

Speaker 2 16:39

So take me then from big alcohol to your brand new venture , which is a very , very exciting recent launch of Diony Life , because this sounds very exciting . So let's tell Lono Nation what it's all about .

Speaker 1 16:44

Look , I think so . So , in a way , the journey that gets taken me here thank you for asking , denise is a massive part of the context . I think the second piece of that context is consumers , as you rightly said , are choosing to be modern . I mean , they're choosing an amazing approach to this whole category . I think is great . Amazing approach to this whole category . I think it's great , and I never thought in my life that I would ever see or be part of a true transformation that is going on .

Speaker 1 17:17

This is not a fad . I really don't believe it's a fad in any shape or form . It's genuinely a change . So it's a bit like I think it's a . Netflix goes from a hard cassette to streaming . You've got the Uber guys . I think it's that seismic a change .

Speaker 1 17:34

So you look at that and you look at the experiences that I and many of my team have had in the industry and have similar stories to my own and really care very deeply about society in the world and where we're going , and also believe , therefore , in the sort of Patagonia effect of you know , could you create something that is incredibly commercially successful ? Now , this is sometimes people say to me well , that means you're making yourself rich . No , the thing about a commercially successful organization is one it has has credibility and has substance , and B it has oxygen . If you have oxygen , you could do good . Without oxygen , I can't do any good , and that's why Patagonia , I think , got it right . They were commercially very successfully successful , they put great products and they did some good . So . So I think for me , the opportunity of putting all these pieces together , the team , was what led us to launch the only life , I think .

Speaker 1 18:35

The second piece here is and I want to link it the issue with people who were , who did not drink alcohol , is the stigma associated with being somebody who did not drink alcohol , because , if you remember , with the world in which we lived in , real people drank alcohol and that's the only way to have fun , which I've debunked , I hope , in what we said earlier on . The problem with that , therefore , is if you don't drink alcohol , then I'm afraid you're going to be compromised , so stand by . The beer is not going to be particularly good , the spirits are going to be horrible and everything , but you know what ? You're that boring person who stands in the corner , or you're dysfunctional , you're a recovering alcoholic or whatever , and therefore I'm sorry , that's tough . Well , our view is , if we want to do this right and we really believe in making a difference , then let's stop compromise . Let's actually provide the consumer with something they're going to really enjoy in a social setting .

Speaker 1 19:34

So there's a danger that it's all about health . Actually , I think it's about well-being . We're forgetting the mental side of all of this . So let's provide you something where you can sit in a social occasion . You may have had a , a drink , but you now want to go to something else , alternate .

Speaker 1 19:53

And , by the way , imagine going to to a celebration , like a wedding and I've seen this where everybody's drinking champagne because they're celebrating and you're given sparkling water with maybe some elderflower juice in it because I'm afraid yep , you should , you should be drinking . I'd love to be able to say no , no , here is a non-alchampagne . Or here is you like a tequila . I'll give you a non-alchampagne , but , by the way , it tastes like a tequila , just no ethanol . So I think behind all of that was let's embrace this , let's go in , let's be a complete , pure play . So I don't want the baggage of of alcohol and somebody's saying this is the way alcohol has always worked and therefore you've got to be selling out . No , no , whilst inclusive , I want to provide or the team wants to provide fantastic quality liquids where there is no compromise with brands that sit in my culture and sit with me and I understand them , available to me and at the right value . That's the excitement of what we've set out to do and I hope that's what we will achieve and we're determined to .

Speaker 2 20:59

I can hear that determination and I love the passion in it . You know , because the best founders are those who are solving a problem that they are feeling themselves or they've experienced , because you really understand what the issue is that you're solving for , and you're not just in it for the money . And , of course , it's okay to make money . You know , let's not demonize the fact that you're . If this is a business , we live in a commercial world and it's okay to have to be able to pay your mortgage , that's fine . But in doing that , producing something that is serving so many people and can make such a difference , it's just a wonderful , wonderful thing . And you know your examples are spot on . Whether it is being at a wedding or just down the pub , you know , being able to have something that is comparable , so that you are equally a part of it

Changing tastes

Speaker 2 21:52

. Um , it's interesting you mentioned you know it tastes something that tastes the same .

Speaker 2 21:56

There is that debate , isn't ? I often ask people do you want something that tastes like your alcoholic favorites or do you want something that's completely different ? And I put a poll on linkedin recently and then the third option was I don don't care , just make it tasty . And I'm pleased to tell you that most people went . The third option is I don't care , just make it tasty . However , I think it's interesting . Some people are looking , aren't they , for that beer replacement , that wine replacement , that tequila replacement , and then others are just looking for something that's quite other , because they want to be away from the alcohol . So how do you balance providing people with the drink that fits that need for the most amount of people ? Because the way we drink is changing , isn't it ? You were talking about your son . You know that , that younger generation , where they way they drink and what they're looking for is probably quite different to what you and I are looking for when we think about what we want in our glass and what we were used to drinking .

Speaker 1 22:59

I think it's very easy . Actually , I don't think it's complicated . Let's go to a tasty point . And you're right , when we're younger we have a sweeter palate . And there are some drinks which are acquired tastes . Just work hard at it .

Speaker 1 23:13

There's one beer where I was told drink three pints and you'll like it . And I remember eating Polo to try and get through this three pint . I never really did , to be honest . So so there are some drinks which are definitely acquired tastes , but there are many , many others which actually just taste nice . And if you think about , you know many of these , the alcohol companies and beer . You know the whole crafts world .

Speaker 1 23:44

People spend a lot of time and effort crafting beautifully tasting drinks . That's what they do . So there's a danger here throwing the baby out with the bathwater , so to speak , which is why would you throw all that knowledge of creating an amazingly tasty drink out ? Because you don't want the ethanol . So I think there's a really easy bit here is to say let's continue to produce fantastically flavored drinks . So if you like a margarita , then you can taste the tequila behind it as well as all the other ingredients which turn it into an amazing margarita .

Speaker 1 24:30

The problem with quite a few non-alcoholic margaritas . I can't taste the tequila taste of it and really what I'm doing is just taking a variation out of fruit juice . If you're not careful and that's true with a lot of drinks where we can't mimic that mouthfeel , throat feel and everything else it's all part of the experience . Therefore , all we do is we say OK , to hell with that , I'm going to create something completely different . We might as well drink Coca-Cola or lemonade , so I think we owe it . That's where I'm coming from , which is take the ethanol out . Where I'm coming from , which is take the ethanol out , but just

Mash Gang beers

Speaker 1 25:37

please keep the craftsmanship and the taste and , frankly , the heritage and the provenance and some of these other great . Why would you take all those out ? Because they're not only part of the taste , but they're part of the brand and the culture associated with the brand , which people enjoy , and I think young people are looking for experiences , so let them have the experience without the negativity of ethanol .

Speaker 2 26:00

Yeah , absolutely , speaking of tastes and brands that craft fantastic beverages , you've launched Gionni Life , working with one of the beer brands that are the most respected in the low and no space . So those watching on video will be able to see a couple of cans behind me that they will recognise , and I have here in front of me a wonderful , wonderful can of oh , move my fingers the MASH Gang cult . So tell me a little bit about why you chose to work with MASH Gang right out of the gate work with mash gang .

Speaker 1 26:41

Uh , right out of the gate . Um , I'll give you the first . The first reason , and it is linked to the , the liquid . I wanted to have a beer that tasted like a beer . It was non-alcohol , and so what we did is we ? We tasted just about every non-alcohol beer going and we always , we've always , had this view of here is , here is the alcohol version . Let's taste the non-alcohol beer going , and we've always had this view of . Here is the alcohol version . Let's taste the non-alcohol version . And , by the way , we did it at room temperature , because the oldest trick in the book is put something in the fridge , carbonate . It disguise the taste and most people like it . So do it at room temperature and you can't escape the fact that most beers are still watery .

Speaker 2 27:17

Interesting .

Speaker 1 27:17

And are heavily flavored . And then if you get into spirit , it's even worse Because the process of taking the alcohol out takes the flavor out , which is why they go to flavor houses and it's a bunch of flavors . So we did all of that and there are some good . And you mentioned Rob Fink actually earlier on I was going to say it earlier on and Big Drop . I think he's done a great job and he's a participant . I think there are other beers Lucky , saint , athletic . I think you've seen more and more beers now , non-out beers , which are beginning to taste like real beer . So that's a big breakthrough . And in our case , when we were doing this tasting , we wanted to have a flavoured beer , not just a light lager , because , frankly , if you want a light lager and you've got low alcohol , please just go and drink those . I wanted a real beer . And when we went through all the tasting , in the end there was only one beer , truly , truly , that stood head and shoulders out from everyone else and that was MASH Gang . And then , when you saw I talked , so Liquid was number one and then the number two has always been .

Speaker 1 28:22

But is there a story ? And I loved the story . You know , I met Jordan , I met Mike , I met Alex , I met James . There's Chris who runs his own band associated with this , and here were four individuals who , during the pandemic and it's a similar story to so many it was such a difficult time , you know , uh , jordan lost his business , ended up having to go and not having to , but ended up living with his parents-in-law in north wales . Uh , and , and everybody was in difficult situations , isolated as they did , and what they would do is send each other sort of red cross parcels , uh , and they would eat , send something that they would enjoy , and it was jordan who started sending um his non-alcoholic beer and then , in the process , they all said , well , this is really good . Then they started sharing with their friends and , of course , like everybody , you're on zoom and how do you keep in contact ? And they would have these and essentially , out of all of that came we can really create a great beer that's not out but represents us and who we are , and we're and they're just the world's nicest individuals . And yet , you know , jordan ran a tattoo parlor and so he has lots of tattoos and they like that sort of heavy metal .

Speaker 1 29:35

End of the of the music , which is very full of expression and vitality and you just think , wow , what a wonderful bunch of people , what an amazing story . The brand sings . When you see and you've got Chug behind you as well , on the shelf , you know it's just got the can says there you are . The can is saying saying please drink me , I've got lots and lots about me , but also the branding sings out . So if you put those two things together , we just thought you know what . It just speaks to us , it's , it's exactly what we want . And then the sort of final answer to your question is if you're launching a new company , certainly something that wants to be pure , pure , pure , pure , plain on out Beer is the one where the biggest advance is Then let's let's let's make sure that our first expression is just a knockout . And that's why we took on MASH Gang . And honestly , here we are three months later and we've launched in the US , launched in the UK . Fantastic , absolutely Best thing , one of the best things I've ever done .

Speaker 2 30:42

This is a fantastic story and they are . Everybody I speak to , who has spoken with them , says exactly the same thing . They're just really nice lads , they're just really nice guys who are really passionate about making really great beer . And for anyone listening or watching who hasn't come across the mash gang brand , you know it's full of personality , it's full of character . Then it's it's a non-conformist beer , but not because they're trying to buck the system , but just because they're a group of guys who are just doing things their way , and I really admire that and you know what ?

Speaker 1 31:16

j Jordan is probably one of the best brewers I've ever met , yet wasn't trained as a classic brewer , and what he says is that I know how to brew and he loves it . He just loves the detail , the art , the science . But I'm not tied to the rules . You know , I don't have to do it the way a brewery has always done it , and that's what I think is lovely in a world where there's a kind of rebelliousness to this . That's what they are and I hope that's what we're trying to be as well .

Speaker 2 31:48

And that's the beauty of this new category . You know , I can imagine that , in comparison to some of the companies and brands that you've worked with before , now you're in a space where actually the rules aren't set . There's a lot of trial and error and R&D going on because nobody quite knows and I say this with all respect to the category , because I love it but nobody quite knows exactly what they're doing , so we're all figuring it out .

Speaker 1 32:15

Denise , we use this tagline of drinks reimagined . None of us know . None of us know . You know , I said something the other day . I feel a bit like I'm going from BlackBerry to iPhone and we're really at the back . I mean there is massive change going on here and the consumer is driving it . Yes , there's a regulatory , environmental aspect and macros and so forth , but we don't know .

Speaker 1 32:38

But I think if we ride the wave in the right way , then I think in 10 years time we could be in an amazing place Again from a consumer , inclusivity and indeed business . You know a lot of businesses that we're seeing right now . You walk into an outlet I'm in Denver and Brighton where we're doing focused testing . But you go to Denver and I'll just give you two outlets . One outlet the manager is bemoaning the fact that they're losing a lot of money , they're having to make people redundant because people aren't drinking as much alcohol . Then you go into another one where they're still selling some alcohol , but they've really increased the size of the NA and they've really focused on quality and brands and they are net-net making more money than they've ever made . So if we think about this , where we're going trust the consumer , follow the consumer do the right thing , and actually I think we'll see more pubs opening and more opportunities for people to come together in a healthier way . But we're going to have to follow this trend , and you're right , I don't know where it's going .

Speaker 1 33:46

One thing I would say , though , is we use the word responsible earlier on . The danger , often with gold rushes , is that and there is an element of that at the moment , which is everybody is getting into this , everybody is thinking about functional and so forth , thc and so forth we start to forget the health side of it as well if we're not careful . So I think , for all of us involved in this , we've also got to have a mind to staying responsible . So you know , know , a little thing like is is legal drinking age . I mean , we are deliberately and very clear

Gateway drinks?

Speaker 1 34:24

that we are an adult , not out right , even though it's 0.5 , but I don't ever want to be in a situation and I've seen it where you end up in a gateway .

Speaker 1 34:35

So so I have a i-year-old son , and he said to me the other day with one of the zero beers he said , dad , so is it all right for me to drink this ? And then , when I'm older , I can drink the real thing and I just said no , you can't , no , you can't , you're not going to do that . And you say , well , hold on , you were 13 . So I will teach him the same way I was , but understand and respect that alcohol is alcohol and this is not a gateway into it and access into it . And that's why I don't want to have zero . So I don't mind that zero is 0.0 . But the point is I don't want to put zero in the bottle . One is because it reinforces the stigma hero to zero . But secondly , you know , I don't want people thinking that there is that trick that's being played . So I just think we've got to be careful , very careful , as we grow this category and do it in the right way .

Speaker 2 35:27

That's really interesting because I've seen a lot of people talking about this at the moment no-transcript . The Alka Pops do I remember them , I lived them .

Speaker 1 35:51

You've just got to go back and look at that . Yeah , the . Smirnoff Isis , that was an attempt , but that was a different sort , but it did the same thing . It broke vaping . You know the horrors of vaping , where you hear 13 year old kids now , yeah , you know majority of vaping because ? Because it's okay , it's safe , but they're gonna smoke , trust me , they're gonna smoke so I guess it begs a question , doesn't it ?

Speaker 2 36:14

because is it that low no drinks that that younger , younger people exposed to low no drinks will use them as a gateway ? Will they use them to a gateway to full strength alcohol ? Or might they use them to a gateway to recognizing that they could drink low and no ? Because the generation that's coming through now aren't drinking full strength . And I mean , I know this is all speculative I've got little kids myself .

Speaker 2 36:39

You know , mine are five and seven . And somebody asked me the other day you know you've got a lot of alcohol-free drinks in the house . Do you worry about the message that that's sending to your kids ? And I thought about this and I'd been to this person's house and they've got shelves and shelves of full strengthstrength alcohol . And I said , well , do you worry about the message that that's sending to your kids ? Is either message correct ? Do we know the result ?

Speaker 2 37:04

No , parenting I always say parenting is a series of best guesses . So do I know what impact that's going to have ? At the moment , when my kids talk about alcohol because it's in the house , all these non-alcoholic drinks they say , you know , oh , we don't like alcohol , mummy . And I say , ok , well , that's good . That's your choice , though , and this is what mummy does , and this is why mummy does it , but it's very hard to explain that to a five and a seven year old . A 10 year old , on the other hand , you know , and they're having these questions , these are conversations we're all going to have to have , aren't they ?

Speaker 1 37:40

I mean , denise , look , one thing I will say about parenting and I've had a few children um , we were all kids first . We weren't parents first . So when people say , well , you're learning to be a parent , hold on a minute , you were a child and I can remember all my experience , majority of my experience as a child . So often as parents , we make excuses and say well , I'm like no , no , no , you knew , you knew because you were there . Now we have different personality types and so forth , so so , so , given that , in a way , I suppose part of my and look , this is very individual and is there a right answer of my answer , denise ? Of course there isn't , and I love your question , I love your response , I love the question . Look , I think it just goes full scale back to education . You know , work on the basis that people are intelligent , they make their own choices at the end of the day , and give them a chance to make the right choice , and therefore it is about education and it is about recognizing the benefits and the cost benefits associated with this . And I just think that if we do it in the right way and that's why I'm and we put I like the idea of waking up in the morning and seeing the sunshine and believing it's going to be a great day . I keep saying I'm sort of a half-gallon full optimist , and I am , and that's who I am and I love life , and so forth . If you wake up with a hangover and you're feeling rough and you don't feel , how can you possibly enjoy the sunshine , how can you possibly enjoy the day ? You can't .

Speaker 1 39:18

So I think , if we can encourage our kids to grow up understanding that actually it is about embracing every day and it is therefore about eating well , so it's a whole package . It's about being , you know , being physically relatively fit and I'm relatively polite to keep fit . It is about eating well . It is about sleeping and , by the way , alcohol does affect your sleep and , by the way , so does so does stress affect it ? And then the final piece is how do you reduce stress ? Actually , sit down with a bunch of friends , put a bit of music on , have a drink in your hand , enjoy yourself and reduce the stress . I think we can . I think we can encourage and teach our kids just to live life in a better way . And so this is just part of the education , but I think it's an important part .

Speaker 2 40:04

Absolutely , absolutely . I'll say it again your parenting it's a series of best guesses . I don't know what I'm doing . You didn't know what you were doing . Hopefully at the end of it we come up with some decent human beings who can think for themselves and and and make reasonably wise choices when it comes to these things . Uh again , I I couldn't possibly judge my children's choices after some of the uh options I've gone for in the past well , me too , me too we live and learn , as they say we certainly do we certainly do um , damien , I want to take you uh back to dionylife um as well .

Speaker 2 40:38

So you've mentioned , uh , the emergence of

What's to come from DioniLife?

Speaker 2 40:41

, of the company , uh , your choices to work with mash gang . Um , so your guys are still quite new . You're only a few months old , so tell me what's , what's on the horizon for dionylife , what can we expect to see coming from you over the next year or so .

Speaker 1 40:55

Thank you for that . I mean , the first thing is we're , we're , we're really focused on mash gang and really making sure that you know is it truly the best liquid ? You know , I speak to jordan um , we talked about earlier on and I love him dearly , and I said to him how good you think our beer is . He said seven out of ten , uh , and I said that's great . How good are some of the others ? Five out of ten , that's good , and the point is we'll never be 10 out of 10 . So so one of the things I promise you is that we'll we'll continue to really focus on , on improving the liquid and making sure the liquid is what we call gold standard and then and then the branding . Now , with that in mind , you know we're creating a portfolio , so we're working currently on launch use of non-alcoholic spirits and some ready to serves and again , we're really clear where the gold standard is . And if I if I use a tequila and I use that earlier on as part of my discussion you know I've tasted a lot of non-alcoholic tequilas and genuinely they taste like flavored water , variation on a flavoured water . So , if so , we've used , using Don Julio , for instance , as a benchmark . So I'm saying let's have a real benchmark here Now . Can I create a non-out tequila that tastes like a Don Julio , create a non-alcoholic tequila that tastes like a Don Julio ? And we believe we have .

Speaker 1 42:19

And by the way , my wife , who I equally love dearly , but she's , you know , like all partners , you know they're supportive , but they still she quite likes her tequila and so she's still not quite sure we can really deliver this . And Steve Wilson , who's my head of innovation , who is a I call the professor , he's the most extraordinary individual who's been involved in creating the most extraordinary brands , alcohol brands . And I did say to him is this possible , steve ? And Steve said yes , and so what he did is he's created this tequila . And Chrissy , my wife , was rushing and he said look , taste these two . And so she tasted the first one , both in kind of shot glasses , and said oh God , steve , I'm really sorry , that is not good , you know , I know you're working really hard on this and I really applaud it and I hope it works . And then she tasted the other one . I went now , that's a real tequila , steve . When you get to that , then you can give it to me . And he said well then , you've just spat out Don Julio , so it's possible and we're really excited and we're going to do that , and then we'll launch some ready-to-serves that really , really do benchmark against a great cocktail .

Speaker 1 43:30

Because the other thing I will say , denise , we spend a lot of time saying so , there's a guy called Douglas Ancora , who's tragically passed , but he invented Paul Starr martinis , one of the best mixologists out there , and what we did is we took a bunch of his recipes and said so , imagine , there's a , let's take an old fashioned . So there's a great old fashioned created by one of the great mixologists . Okay , now let's taste the alcohol versions . And you know what ? None of them came near it . None of them , none of them in all accounts . So what we've said is okay , none of them did it with alcohol .

Speaker 1 44:05

We're going to have the same benchmark , but without alcohol , and that's what we've been working on , and I can promise that we're aiming to launch in March , april next year , and I think now , if it's not quite right , we won't launch it , but our aim is to get that level , and once we do it , then I think for me the excitement then is , you know , you link all the themes of this conversation , which is it's a no-compromise version of a drink , a great drink , whether it's an old-fashioned or margarita or otherwise , where people sit around with friends , they laugh , they enjoy themselves and they have a great tasting drink , just without the ethanol . That's what I promise you're going to get .

Speaker 2 44:45

That's a bold promise . That's a bold promise and I'm going to hold you to it , because not only are both margaritas and old-fashioned both my favorite cocktails , the two cocktails that I absolutely adore , but they are difficult , aren't they ? They are challenging .

Speaker 2 44:57

the two cocktails that I absolutely adore , but they are difficult , aren't they ? They are challenging . Something like an Old Fashioned , in particular , was , you know ? For anyone who doesn't know , an Old Fashioned is pretty much just bourbon in a glass with ice , you know , stirred nicely , it's given a little bit of love , but it's a very , very strong drink .

Speaker 1 45:12

Which is why the spirits . So a lot of people have gone straight to RTS to avoid the spirit issue . We've actually said now we need to get the spirit right and the RTS . That's where Steve is a magician Because , by the way , this is a massive challenge for the challenge of his lifetime . But if anybody can deliver it , he and his team can deliver it .

Speaker 2 45:31

I'm so excited . I'm so excited .

Speaker 1 45:33

Don't mind , I promise you .

Speaker 2 45:36

We're excited . Steve's stressed in the corner , pulling his hair out . How do people find out about these releases ? Where should they go to follow you , to get in touch if they have any questions ? They just want to know what you're up to .

Speaker 1 45:52

Where's the best place for them to find you . So look , I mean , we've got a MASH gang site that's up and running . So please go on MASHGANG and please order it , and both in the US and in the UK we can do that . Our own GeoD Life website we're still working on , so it will be there . I mean , frankly , if you know Damien McKinney at GeoDLifecom , send me an email and I'll respond Very happily . Do that . And of course we're not a PR , so we'll make sure people know when we're doing things . But I hope at the end of the day , a bit like this conversation , word of mouth is the most powerful and I hope people love it so much that they'll just talk about it . It'll be easy to find .

Speaker 2 46:31

Absolutely , absolutely . I will make sure that MASH Gang website and everything is linked in the show notes and that email address and , of course , if people want to come through me to get to you as well , I'm more than happy to act as an intermediary while you're getting your website and everything up .

Speaker 1 46:46

And thank you .

Speaker 2 46:47

Now , damien , before I let you go , it's time

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 46:49

for my last question , which is one that I ask everybody who comes on the show . So we are recording towards the end of the year and the weather is well . It's England , so it's cold , but I want you to cast your mind back to summertime , when it's a nice , hot , sunny day , and imagine that you and your lovely wife , chrissie , are off to a barbecue at a friend's house .

Speaker 2 47:10

Now other than , of course , cans and cans and cans of the amazing MASH gang range . What else in the low , no or light range do you like to enjoy when you're choosing not to drink alcohol ?

Speaker 1 47:22

big drop great really simple , really simple , and and and . Actually rob and I were very close in terms of talking about maybe we could partner up and in the end we didn't . But it was a very close discussion , and frankly , for two reasons . One is I think the liquid's great and you used exactly right and , funny enough , I did take it . It was a sports day , so it was before we ended up with mash gang and I took it to a sports day . Uh , I know you don't serve sports , but but , but everybody was drinking on out so it was okay . Um , but um , I think it's great taste of liquid .

Speaker 1 47:55

And then , frankly , I think rob is an extraordinary individual . I think he's great taste of liquid and then , frankly , I think Rob is an extraordinary individual . I think he's genuinely put himself out there to really help encourage the category to grow and evolve in a very positive way , and I admire him as an individual . So , on many levels , I would encourage you to drink a big drop . Of course , they're competitive for us . I like competition as well , so that's good competition makes it more fun .

Speaker 2 48:20

I love it .

Speaker 1 48:21

I love it because because I'll just say one thing that I said it many times there's a negative to point , which is , I do think a lot of poor liquids have poisoned the well to a certain extent , so people will . So when you say to somebody , would you like a non-out beer or a non-out , quite a lot of people go oh no , I don't want to . Because their first introduction was awful and they didn't enjoy it and therefore for all of us , the better the quality of the liquids and I genuinely think there's a lot of great brands out there working really hard at actually creating great liquids and great experiences has got to be good for all of us in the category and , most importantly , really good for the consumer at the end of the day , who wants to enjoy a great drink absolutely absolutely .

Speaker 2 49:08

A rising tide lifts all boats , that's it damien , thank you so much for spending time with me today . I could talk to you for hours and there's loads more that I I would like to ask you , but I'll be respectful of your day and say that hopefully , um , if you've enjoyed the experience , I'd love to get you back on the podcast , maybe in a year or so , and see , uh , you know what's been going on in the in the Dione Life family , but for now , thank you so much for your time and for sharing your journey with us .

Speaker 1 49:35

Denise , thank , thank you , and yeah , you can hold me , you can take me up on the challenge as well , so I look forward to that . But anytime , thank you , I appreciate the opportunity .