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Speaker 1 1:12

And so I doubled down on seeing if I could create the world's first good non-alcoholic wine . And when I say good , it was my definition of good , which it was quite nuanced , which was not high in sugar , didn't have nasty chemicals , had a certain palate , my definition of good , which was always a very specific palate thing that I had honed at Cordon Bleu . I guess I wasn't great at many things . I could never be a master of wine . I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge , but palate was my thing . I was a taster , so that was really the holy grail .

Speaker 2 1:49

Before we get started , just a really quick question . Have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom ? Forward slash free gifts ? Well you should . Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the Lono and light alcohol revolution . Today I'm very happy to be having a conversation with the wonderful Amanda Thompson , a woman that leaves very little introduction if you've been in this space for a while . She is the mastermind behind the leading non-alcoholic wine brand in this space and a little interesting story as well . Also the first non-alcoholic wine sparkling wine that I ever tasted in a lovely little restaurant in London Bridge , a lovely vegetarian restaurant in Borough Market , london Bridge . So yeah , I'm really , really excited to have you on the show , amanda . I want to get to know a bit more about you , about the journey you've been on and about your fabulous , fabulous non-alcoholic wines .

Speaker 1 2:50

So welcome to the show . Yeah , I'm extremely grateful , and we were , just before we started recording , thinking back to how we first met , and it was when you , with your magazine , had reached out really early days . Um , yeah , it's amazing how time flies it really is that .

Speaker 2 3:05

That was almost two years ago now , so thank you for for believing enough in low-no-drinker to allow me to to include you in one of the first issues it was amazing . Thank you , thank

Amanda's story

Speaker 2 3:15

you . Well , you've been on a pretty amazing journey yourself , so I always like to start by asking my guests to start where you feel comfortable starting . Take us back to wherever you want . What was your journey ? Because you had a quite different background before you moved into non-alcohol beverages . So what was the journey that led you to create these amazing , amazing drinks ?

Speaker 1 3:35

Exactly , this is my second career , actually , and this is why I'm always encouraging entrepreneurs , founders of any age , that it's never too late to start a business , which I think is really important . And actually , on that note , going off a tangent , it's fascinating . I think we all sort of think about a founder as being 20-something and actually successful founders are much more our age . Really . I'm not necessarily saying that you're my age , but you know not 20-something , I'm guessing , even though you look very young .

Speaker 2 4:04

No , I think we're in the same ballpark .

Speaker 1 4:06

Okay , back to the history . I think I should probably go right back very briefly to childhood . Stay with me . I was very curious and I asked um many , many questions and it turned out I think that that was very pertinent for my previous career , which was in journalism and broadcasting . So , funny enough , I was doing this for a living , asking the questions . It's quite a meta that now I'm on the other side , um , and yeah , I ended up up as an arts journalist actually .

Speaker 1 4:37

So I always say what used to be back in my day , the fun stuff film , fashion , music , so restaurant openings , red carpet , modern art galleries , film festival , can you know , really quite exciting stuff . And this was before social media , so it was quite a different world . So there is a gateway here to actually alcohol . Champagne was my buzz . I was all about the pop of that first cork , the chill bubbles when they hit your lips , just that moment of celebration . And I was really fussy about champagne . Um , I always say it's easy to be really fussy when you're not paying right , and I and I , you know , back in those days , um , a lot of fancy drinks were banded around the arts world and the relationship with alcohol arts . It was a much more natural one . I think we question things a lot more now in all kinds of spaces , don't we ? Those links with alcohol , though they're still extremely strong , but it wasn't questioned back then and then we used to think nothing of . I remember , at the film festival , you know , I would have been out at an all night party and as long as you were on air with your hair and makeup done and as long as you were working , you know it was quite a different world . I think friends of mine from advertising would say the same . Lots of different industries , the city finance , that relationship with drinking and work . That said , we all still carried on working , so I guess it took a certain rigor , but obviously not to be recommended today at Home Kids .

Speaker 1 6:07

So I fell in love with champagne and that was what led me to finding what was then the world's best sommelier . A French gentleman who happened to live in the UK , who sadly died , called Gérard Basset , and I went to him and I asked him where I should study . I decided I wanted to study champagne and I wanted to start my own champagne brand . As you Do , I would think , with these stories when I hear other founders talking and you sort of hear that bit and it's just that top line bit . You know , just wanted to do this . Obviously the podcast only is 30 , 40 minutes , so we have to sort of speed on . But I'm not suggesting there isn't a whole load of conversational issue and challenge around . That bit in its own that could be unpacked , but that was the decision I'd made at that point . That led me to Paris to study at what I considered was the world's best culinary school , which still is Cordon Bleu , and they had just launched a wine diploma in Paris . And I threw myself into studies , leaving my broadcasting career behind , launched a champagne successfully .

Speaker 1 7:19

My speciality was low and no dosage , so that's all about not adding too much sugar and creating ripeness and roundness from the fruit itself . And then during that part of the journey , when I had a champagne , I was struck that there was nothing for me to drink when I wasn't drinking Denise , and what I mean by that is I was a wine lover , a champagne snob technically , and I stayed in my wine lane and I might just have one glass , and I was never a big drinker . So I was always discerning and I would switch to water . Usually San Pellegrino was my water of choice , and then I would go home early . And then I dug a bit more into the data and it turned out there were millions of wine drinkers exactly like me who didn't necessarily have a relationship with the cocktail space , with the beer space . A lot of wine drinkers , actually unbeknown to people in the world who drink all manner of things , stay in that wine lane and it's wine water bed and there's not a lot of deviation from that .

Speaker 1 8:48

And I think that was really what came as an interesting shot to me and really the industry hadn't really dug into . And so I doubled down on seeing if I could create the world's first good non-alcoholic wine and when I say good , that's not putting down anybody else who'd done anything else before me . It was my definition of good , which it was quite nuanced and which was not high in sugar , didn't have nasty chemicals , had a certain palate , my definition of good , which was always a very specific palate thing that I had honed at Cordon Bleu . I guess I wasn't great at many things . I could never be a master of wine , um my , I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge , but palate was my thing . I was a taster , so so so that was really the holy grail . Could I achieve that and and launch that and that became my , my obsession and so how long did that journey take them ?

Speaker 2 9:46

because if you're , you're , you're , um , you're , you're , you know , looking for what you consider to be good and obviously want to produce the best , that , that that you would love to enjoy and want other people to enjoy , I can imagine that that wasn't just a case of , oh , here's some grapes , you know , let's take the alcohol out and here's a lovely drink . That must've been quite a a journey that you went on .

Speaker 1 10:05

Yeah , it was a really unusual journey and , to be honest , I didn't find it very exciting at first because I was kind of upset that so many of the legacy non-alcoholic wine brands because I think we forget really that non-alcoholic wine has existed for a very long time .

Speaker 1 10:21

It's just it's had a huge chasm , you know , apart from what I would call the wine industry , because I've always , you know , my space was the fine wine world and so we didn't even notice non-alcoholic wine because it wasn't really marketed to us for all manner of reasons . Brand is the most obvious one , but actually the real one is taste and price point and sugar and chemicals and quality is taste and price point and sugar and chemicals and quality . So there was all manner of things that were pertinent there , and the reason it was so upsetting was I just found it so sad that that bridge hadn't been tackled , really , because I consider I'm kind of a wine geek in my heart and I think great winemakers are like artists , and so I was like , well , why are the artists not there and who are the artists ?

Speaker 1 11:10

and why don't they exist ? And so that sort of really was a little sad and I was consuming a lot of things that had again my you know , the daggers in my heart are always sugar , chemicals , whatever , and they just really were upsetting liquids to drink , just to really circle . Upsetting liquids to drink , just to really circle . Back again to childhood , I'd had a mother who was way ahead of the tipping point . For those of you who read Malcolm Gladwell's classic book , the Tipping Point , he's all about forecasting and the future .

Speaker 1 11:39

She was a health food entrepreneur , just to put food on the table actually . So she used to deliver muesli on her bicycle in the 70s . Now that was way before whole foods , way before it was fashionable . You know , I would be going to my friends houses and white bread was my drug , you know , because I was eating whole grain bread , and when I say whole grain bread , everyone's like oh we understand how great bread . What's the big deal on that ? I mean , in the old days it was really heavy , sort of really , you know , like that kind of lock . Yes , it was a huge plot , and so it used to be quite embarrassing for me inviting friends around . Actually , we didn't have a lot of money either . So there was a lot of issues going on there , um , but she was really ahead of her own game with with just recognizing what was going wrong with the food market in the 70s .

Speaker 2 12:30

So , if I can ask you then to talk to me about the range , because for those watching on video , you can see behind me we have two beautiful bottles

The Noughty range

Speaker 2 12:38

and I'll show them a bit more clearly in just a moment of your sparkling . And then we've also got your stills , your sparkling , um , and then we've also got your stills . So it's not just that you've gone , you've gone ahead and made a spark , a non-alcoholic wine . You've looked at the spectrum and decided do you know what ? We're going to tackle it all . We're going to bring it all on . So what ? What's in the range , and what is it that makes them so special and so beloved by so many people ?

Speaker 1 13:06

So , to answer the first question , I launched the Blanc de Blanc . So I'm a champagne girl , so 100% Chardonnay Blanc de Blanc , white of whites grapes basically For me it's the most elegant grape to use for champagne and I wanted to start with that and see where that took us . And so actually I launched the Naughty Sparkling Chardonnay , which was our original hero bottle in 2019 . So that was just before the pandemic , that thing we don't want to talk about , and that really took off in the US almost at the same time or arguably much faster than it did in the UK .

Speaker 1 13:42

London was our hub and the New York wine writers started to write about me really early . We were in the New York Times wine enthusiast and I think a lot of the serious players in the wine world recognized just that . I was trying to do something along the purity and quality lines and I think I was considered the first person to do that really in the world , which was kind of mind blowing . Which was kind of mind blowing . And then I was really interested to see if I could put my flag in the sand as a brand with a portfolio , and for me , what that portfolio initially needed to look like was one elegant wine for each occasion . So it was that sparkling Chardonnay . Like the Champagne , it was the sparkling Rosé version of Champagne . So a sparkling Rosé , we've got an organic Tempranillo and then three stills to start with .

Speaker 1 14:39

The stills gave me all manner of other challenges . For those who know a bit about non-alcoholic wine , I guess formal wine tasting you have all of your ticks for each component and there's an argument to say which I think is a fair one , that mouthfeel , as they call it . When you know , with bubbles in sparkling wine , you know you've got that effervescence in the non-alcoholic that is not taken away . So mouthfeel tick is arguably dealt with more easily . And yeah , stills created a really big challenge to me , conceptually as well as literally . And so , going back to your second question about what's made them so beloved , obviously it's hard to answer that because it's kind of esoteric .

Speaker 1 15:24

But what I was really striving for and this is really important , I think , because there's so many debates there about non-alcoholic wine and I stay right out of them because for me I focus on what I'm doing and I always just say to everybody else , if they ask me for advice , just focus on quality and purity . That that's , that's all I really care about actually , um and taste . You know , essentially that is for me what the most key components are of taste . It's a feeling , and I guess I was tasting . I'm always trying to raise my own game technically , so I'm always trying to better what I'm doing and I was tasting some new blends last night actually , and my husband always asked , he was asking me about my tasting process . He said , oh , can he be there at dinner when I'm doing the tasting ? I said , well , you can . I said , but don't talk to me . And he's like well , what do you mean ? I do this thing and I guess this is where it's . You know , this is where I guess it becomes a bit esoteric . I like to have my , I get into my own head and I taste in a very quiet , instinctual way . You know , and I've studied at the WSET Because when I came back from Cordon Bleu I was curious to know how different the WSET study was .

Speaker 1 16:38

And I haven't done the diploma , I've done the penultimate one , which was easy is completely the wrong word but it was relatively fine because I'd done a year's course in paris at cordon bleu , um , and I remember doing the tasting and and I almost had to undo a lot of what I'd learned . I think the romanticism of studying in paris for me was that I was trained under a couple of the world's best sommeliers , and wine for me is quite romantic and artistic and

The great debates

Speaker 1 17:06

that really suits my way of tasting . And I find when I have to do the tick boxes for the exams , you know they do . How's the ? How's the acidity ? Is it medium , medium plus ? Anyone who's done WSET will be going ah yes , and I struggle to do all of that .

Speaker 1 17:20

For me , tasting is is a romantic , instinctual thing and I like to go into my own headspace , um , and so I was setting out to create something really delicious , elegant and pure that sat comfortably alongside good wine . So when people are arguing , you know , oh , it doesn't taste like wine , is it this , is it that ? And arguing all in about non-alcoholic wine , and you know doing this , who's doing that ? I don't even get involved with any of those conversations . We're not trying to create replicas . I'm just doing my own singular thing , which has happened to be thankfully successful . Is that a long winded way of answering what was technically a short question ?

Speaker 2 18:07

No , that's a perfect way and I love . I love that approach because you're right , there is a lot of argument and there is a lot of debate , and I myself as well find that sometimes I step back from these , these arguments that people have about whether it should be a replica , whether it should be something different , whether it should be called wine , whether it should be , and just think don't we just want to give people something that tastes nice ?

Speaker 1 18:32

exactly . You've just hit the nail on the head , and that was always Denise , something I would say . When I was taking . I'd say do you like it ? Yes , it's a drink . It's supposed to make us feel good . You hit the nail exactly on the head and that was really where I was coming from and that that is just it , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 18:52

because I think we as an industry can get quite caught up in that and then we forget that the consumer doesn't understand wsct and acidity and this tasting , and they don't understand uh , you know the , the eves and all the terminology and all those things that go into it .

Speaker 2 19:11

They're just looking for something that means that they can go out and have a good time or stay in and have a exactly um , and have something that that fulfills that space , uh , in different ways , um , and I wondered your opinion in terms of sort of different ways , because obviously , in your range you've got the sparklings , you've got the stills , you've got the red , the white and the

Industry progression

Speaker 2 19:31

and the rose , um , and people are coming , I , it seems to me people are coming to non-alcoholic wine in in much larger numbers now . There's a lot more , um , people are a lot more prepared to try to taste and to look for things that they might like , but at the same time , they're also quite unforgiving , sometimes particularly sort of your red wine drinkers . And so this must be a challenge that Naughty have faced and are facing on an ongoing basis .

Speaker 1 20:05

To be honest with you , I just stay exactly in my lane and do my thing , and that's what we do as a brand and it's proved very successful . For us , red Wine has been a phenomenal success which has given me such joy . That was my most feared launch , if I'm honest , and I remember the New York Times , um , put us on the cover of food and drink and said it was the red wine non-alcoholic red wine to bring to the party very early on , and I slept like a baby thereafter for for that week , um , but um , yeah , I mean it , it's . It's interesting . I think that it's a bit like pop stars or actors . Right , stay with me on this analogy .

Speaker 1 20:55

There is so much talk in our space and it's very easy for us to think that we're hitting everybody and everybody else is talking and everybody else cares , and I think that one can really talk oneself into a bit of a vacuum and we are never negative about anybody else's brand , what they're doing . I never comment publicly on anybody else's brands or and that's been a very specific position we just stay in our lane and know exactly what we're doing and where we're going , and that was always really the way . I think that you know , I believe entrepreneurs are good at one or two things and you fill in all your gaps , if you're smart , with brilliant other people . And I've always been a visionary entrepreneur , and what I mean by that is I've always known exactly where I'm going , what I'm setting out to create , and and then the challenge for me is the steps between that and how do you get there ? I kind of picture it like a rainbow . I you know I'm not talking about in a unicorn sense , I mean in a macro sense , in that it's kind of here and then I'm climbing the ladder and sometimes you take , you know , three , three steps up that ladder and you fall down . You know to keep going . I find , as time goes on , obviously you climb higher and you fall down less . Going back to your point about you know unforgiving and there's a lot of opportunity out there . I think that , truthfully , if the veil was lifted with every single brand and their sales , the facts are that volume is actually a very hard one , and I think that what a lot of people are doing is piling into the industry , perhaps for the wrong reasons . What a lot of people are doing is piling into the industry , perhaps for the wrong reasons If you want to be successful long term . I think that quality should be what you're thinking about Absolutely , and my fear for our industry as a whole that if we I don't do this but if we homogenize the non-alcoholic sort of space , is that labeling is going to become more and more pertinent , sugar is going to become more and more relevant and E numbers are going to be looked at under the microscope .

Speaker 1 23:12

Because right now I've been really shocked , disappointed , upset when I've looked on backs of labels of brands again not mentioning names , of course and I've been like well , why are those E numbers in there and why are you building up palette with this ? So I think if I were a maker who was building up a palate in exactly the same way as you do with cheap alcoholic wine , I would be very concerned and I would be wanting to move to the purity space . So I think that would be my only comment on our space is how do people really create great taste without building it up from sugar and chemicals ? I think that consumers aren't forgiving , as you've suggested , and once those conversations become more vocal , I think people are going to be upset if they're replacing alcohol with sugar and e-numbers , because from a health perspective , that's not really the way any of us should go .

Speaker 2 24:05

Yeah , the health perspective plays a large part for a lot of people . Some people come into this space

The health perspective

Speaker 2 24:12

. Obviously we all know that people come into this space for lots of various reasons , and welcome to one and all , whatever your reason is for trying a low-no or light drink . But the health angle is one that's quite big for a lot of people , whether they're temporarily doing a quote quote unquote detox to lose some weight , whether they're trying to change their lifestyle habits for medical reasons . So the health element is really important .

Speaker 2 24:37

A lot of people are looking for that , and I noticed that when I put sort of content out or articles or whatever , those that reference things like functional ingredients or healthier approaches tend to get a lot more interest from people because they are going right , as you said . You know , a few years ago something happened that made us all sort of sit back and think am I looking after myself in the best way possible ? And so for a lot of people , cutting back on alcohol is part of a greater drive to improve their health , more so than the numbers suggest , more so than just for sobriety or recovery . So it's something that we need to take care of so that we can make sure we're delivering what people are actually looking for , no matter what category .

Speaker 1 25:21

And then I suppose , where does the idea of a soft drink , a sugary soft drink , versus a non-alcoholic drink ? Where is that gray area ? Where's the bridge ? Where's the crossover ? Luckily , that's not something I have to worry about . I think what's beautiful about what I'm doing in the wine space for me is it's like my friend . Back in the early days I was with Bill Shufelt from Athletic on the Non-Alcoholic Beverage Association on the board . I was the wine expert in America and it's exactly like that , what he's done . He's always been a beacon for me . And it's like you've got beer or you've got Athletic , you've got wine and you've got naughty . And I think what consumers know about us is that they can trust the taste and they can trust that we're not loading our bottles up with nasty things . And I think you know to have a consumer buy something once is very different to having a long term relationship with a brand ?

Speaker 2 26:21

Absolutely . You mentioned America a couple of times and I'd love to just get your thoughts on

Noughty in the USA

Speaker 2 26:30

the experiences that you've had taking a brand to the States and also your opinions on the way that the market is moving stateside versus UK , because a lot of low-none nation listeners are in the States . We reach a lot of people in America and it seems to be that there's quite a difference in the way that these drinks are being welcomed and featuring stateside versus UK . I mean , obviously we've got the difficulties that I've mentioned on the show before that it's not very easy getting a brand , particularly a UK brand , across America because they have a lot of very complicated import , export rules and such . But you seem to be doing quite well over there . What's that been like and and and what are you seeing statewide versus UK ?

Speaker 1 27:18

Well , when I launched Naughty I'd always had my heart set on being on both sides of the pond and I had no idea just quite how rapid the American rise would be . And actually America's our biggest market by some distance and continues to grow rapidly and is our big focus . So I'm spending more and more time over there . We've also got people over there . They're open-minded , I would argue , in a way that we aren't and of course I'm not saying Americans per se . That obviously wouldn't make any rational sense . I'm talking about the percentage of Americans in each state that are buying naughty and just the way that the media and that works . On social media We've just really taken off there beautifully . The wine industry , I would argue , is a bit more open-minded as well .

Speaker 1 28:11

In the new world I mean I love , love , love doing business in America for a number of reasons . I guess I'm a communicator , I come from that world and I find Americans naturally embrace that . I find that the positive attitude is very uplifting . You know , much as I love British cynical humor , it can , you know , not necessarily be encouraging from a business perspective At the moment . In 2024 , I'll go public and say I don't believe we've got a very business friendly government in the UK that are doing SMEs and fast growth businesses like mine no favors , and so it's really exciting actually , and I think from the get go I was smart enough to look on America not as one country but but on a state by state basis , and I think the mistake that most Europeans make with America is saying we're going to launch in America , You're like well , actually , let's talk about where specifically you're going to launch .

Speaker 1 29:11

We look on each state as almost like a separate European country , but the fact that New York buzzed really about us first was I guess you could argue with the benefit of hindsight , living the dream , because that's what everybody romanticizes . And I guess you could argue with the benefit of hindsight , living the dream , because that's what everybody romanticizes . And I guess we made that happen pretty early and then the ripples started to occur . So that was , you know , fall 2019 , we launched the first bottle of Naughty in London , and so we were growing in America actually during the pandemic . So so America was was always really , um , I guess , the key part of of my growth and focus .

Speaker 2 29:52

Oh , fantastic it's , it's . It's really encouraging , I'm sure , for for other founders that that that hear this to , to know that you know it's not a case of perhaps breaking America or taking over the whole country , but getting in there and if , if , you can be strategic about it and and , like you say , take it one state at a time , one area at a time , and say , look , we want to introduce this fantastic drink to this group of people and see how they respond to it .

Speaker 1 30:17

And actually one other point that's probably interesting for both of us is I find that they have a really uplifting

Diversity in business

Speaker 1 30:25

focus on female founders and more diverse founders . I remember being in a big meeting oh , you're a female founder . I'm like , oh yes , is that relevant , you know . And oh , are you possibly Hispanic or no ? I'm half Asian . Great , you know . And I think these sorts of you know diversity in the UK , I know everybody has a separate department . I'm not convinced anything's moving on anything like as fast as it should . It's often in a separate sort of adjunct , I think they because they're not afraid to have the conversation . Oh , denise , you're black . Amanda , you're half Asian , I think you know . While there may be other things that we might not agree with when it comes to the way things are done over there , I find that a really open , useful conversation and subsequently I'm around a lot more diverse , uplifting founders when I'm in America and I find it's not something that anybody shies away from , which I think is pretty exciting .

Speaker 2 31:21

That's really , really refreshing to hear . I've not heard anybody else sort of make a comment of that elk about doing business over there . And yes , as a woman , as a woman of colour , there are certain challenges in business that are faced and that are felt far more intensely than perhaps your other types , your more standard sort of founder persona . So it's great to hear that that is not only recognized , not shied away from , supported and encouraged , as long as you are still producing something that is of worth and of note . You know that , because that's the most important thing . It's . It's for me , it's not about oh , you're black and you're female . Therefore we'll , you know , shout about you .

Speaker 1 32:01

It will be no , but they're doing something fantastic exactly , but they've noticed that that it was almost impossible if you were black and female and doing this to even get noticed . So I mean , serena Williams , I think , has done amazing work across the US in just spotlighting that . It's like everybody's coming from so much further back . So how do we make them more present ? I mean you only have to look at how I'm doing some work with Wellington College . I've got a future founders program . You need to get everybody younger and we're working with them . At 13 years old and of course , you can't see what you can't be . And at the moment , women just aren't scaling businesses , you know , to big numbers in this country , and certainly not diverse women . So it's like , how do you change those metrics ?

Speaker 2 32:48

And interesting as well . You know , in our industry within the low-no-brand space , there are a lot of female founders within this category .

Speaker 1 32:56

Yeah , but it's about the scale . We're very good at creating , you know what I would call what I suppose are generally called kitchen table businesses , which sounds pejorative but actually isn't . It's really the beginning of the SME lifeblood economy . But I'm talking about scaling businesses . I was always setting out to create a global brand . I don't think we think big enough in this country and we're not ambitious enough . So while it's amazing that there are a lot of female founders in this community in terms of revenue numbers , unfortunately if we lift the lid , they would be small . Now , if these women just want to keep their businesses small and have a lifestyle business , that's brilliant and that's a separate idea . But it's like how do we encourage women to actually scale businesses with big revenue ? That's the challenge .

Speaker 2 33:43

Businesses with big revenue . That's the challenge . That's a very good point and it is very well put . And the numbers do say , don't they , that in terms of growth and investment , it is female-led businesses that get the short shrift in terms of that sort of expansion .

Speaker 1 33:55

Even though , statistically , we're said to be more successful . So there's the irony .

Speaker 2 34:00

My goodness , it sounds like you're doing amazing work over there and I think it's fascinating . I think it's wonderful that you're finding young people . You know your comment previously about successful founders being a little bit older . Perhaps you know a bit more life experience . You've raised a family , which is your first sort of port of call in running a business , because sometimes it does take military position to run a family but also showing younger people that they do have these options , that running your own business is a path that you can take if you decide to do something other than just follow that sort of corporate treadmill .

Speaker 1 34:37

Exactly Just starting to help them think about profit with purpose and leadership and what they can give , initially to the community but later to the world .

Speaker 2 34:46

Exactly Amazing . Speaking of profit with purpose . I know that you are very passionate about your B Corp status and I wondered if you could tell me a little bit about

Becoming a leading B-Corp brand

Speaker 2 34:53

why that means so much to you and how that manifests in within the business .

Speaker 1 34:58

Yeah , I think we were the first drinks brand , certainly in the UK , to get our B Corp status and possibly , I think , the first wine brand . There were quite a lot of firsts for us to do that and I'm delighted to see that lots of other brands are now pushing on and getting their certification in this country , in the UK . Yeah , it was really just to sign up to say that ethically we would try to do the right thing , not just when people were looking , but when they weren't looking , not just when people were looking , but when they weren't looking . I think it's a really interesting one B Corp , because any of these organizations you know there is rigor , but what's interesting with B Corp specifically is that you have to . It's not just like you get the rubber stamp and then you're done . Each year you have to score better . So it's quite a lot of responsibility on a founder's shoulders .

Speaker 1 35:46

Each year we have to improve what we're doing , and I mean Rome wasn't built in a day . You know I'm shipping bottles around the world . That's obviously not ideal , you know . But it's like how do you create a short , medium and long term plan to improve upon things in your company ? And of course , it's also a holistic thing , denise . It's not just the sustainability sort of packaging piece .

Speaker 1 36:08

I think we were also the first wine brand to go fully eco-packaging in this country too . But it's like , it's not just things like packaging , it's also things like in our share articles . I had to go . I've got some investors and I had to get them to agree that I would be making decisions on ethics as well as profit , so it really cuts across every aspect of the business . So it's not something to be undertaken lightly . I think a lot of people kind of go oh , you've got that , you're just kind of chasing that for the PR , and actually I think that would be a dangerous mistake for a company because they're going to have to do all of the rigorous work behind it and they would get caught out .

Speaker 2 36:48

I didn't realize that you had to score higher each year . I knew that you had to sort of go back in and and reapply as such or say , show that you were still doing proactive and positive things . But to know that you have to score higher each year means that you have to keep raising those standards exactly that's fantastic yeah , I bet .

Speaker 2 37:06

Yeah , I bet it is . Yes , I want to take you back to the brand specifically , as I noticed something on your bottles which I hadn't noticed

Creating a household legacy

Speaker 2 37:16

before , which is on the neck and I'm not sure how well people can see this . You've got the name of the brand , obviously , and then there's a question mark after naughty , naughty question mark . What's the question mark ?

Speaker 1 37:28

oh , are you naughty ? Ah , I mean it was . You know , there was always an element of mischief . Because I think , going back to your point , you know this is a drink , do you like it ? You know , and I think , on back to your point , you know this is a drink , do you like it ? You know , and I think , on that note , you know all of this kind of noise and debate about what should non-alcoholic wine be legislatively ? I'll try saying that after three coffees , legislatively there you go .

Speaker 1 38:03

You know it's kind of irrelevant in the sense that you know it's a drink , enjoy it , pop with a cork , the beautiful bubbles and actually at this point probably a good time to also mention I'm delighted that people are trying to really push price points high and really push quality . For me , I always want a democratic price point and qualitative relationship and I'm not ready I haven't got anything to raise my own game and when I do it will be the relevant democratic price point , but I want it to be the household name that we all turn to when we want a good non-alcoholic wine . And while my fellow fine wine lovers may disagree , I was always aware , even with a champagne , that one can't escape . As Brits we love not to talk about money . You know we love to do that .

Speaker 1 39:04

Ultimately , if I'm going to have a really big household name brand , its price point is highly pertinent and , going back to my point , it should always for me reflect the quality . Obviously , I've got economies of scale now , so I think why also people are pleased with my brand is that they hopefully feel like the price point reflects the quality , that they hopefully feel like the price point reflects the quality and actually a few people recently have found my price quite keen for the quality because of the economies of scale we now have . So rather than being out to make a quick buck , I'm trying to create a household name and therefore that's really important to me . So even when I raise my own game with another more elevated wine which I've hinted I'm trying to do I also still want the price point to reflect the quality and it have the ability to really go big . So that's always a really key part of what I'm trying to do .

Speaker 1 40:04

And actually the full circle moment for me , which probably nearly blew my own mind , denise , was Cordon Bleu , two weeks ago , invited me back I'm talking in December to you invited me back to do the world's first ever non-alcoholic wine masterclass . I had the whole afternoon with their students . I'd studied there and I was taking the world's first ever master class at the most famous culinary institute in the world that now has a wine component . That was probably the greatest honor of my life , to be honest . I mean it was just a really special moment and kind of shows anyone listening who's thinking of creating something from a blank sheet of paper that anything is actually possible . Because if you'd asked me when I was studying . If that would have ever happened , I mean , it would have been the most absurd thing ever .

Speaker 2 41:01

So isn't that crazy post on LinkedIn and even just with the written word , I could just tell how excited and how proud you were of what you'd achieved and how far you'd come and what you were able to then see growing into something that's bigger than you . And ultimately , that's what we're doing , right ? You know we're doing these things and we have our plans and we want to have global reach and so on and so forth , but ultimately we're growing something that lasts beyond us and it's big global reach , and so on and so forth , but ultimately we're growing something that lasts beyond us and it's big .

Speaker 1 41:30

Exactly , denise , you put that perfectly . I always saw this as my legacy , actually , and I'm not emotional , but it does bring a bit of a tear to my eye . I remember I nearly cried with the students because I just said you've got this amazing opportunity now , in 2024 . When I see wine as art , everybody's complaining that conventional wine industry is dwindling . You are the innovators . I said I see no reason , and I think the reason my brand's successful is I see no reason why one can't innovate and still respect purity and wine at the same time . And so I kind of threw them this challenge , this mantle , and I said keep talking to me . I said to all of the students I said this is really your challenge , but also your opportunity , and I think it's hugely exciting and I've proved it's possible . I've got a lot more work to do to be a household name , but we're on the way . I've proved it's possible now and I hope that that stands as a beacon for others .

Speaker 2 42:29

You know , I think it most certainly will , most certainly . We are recording , as you say , in December , so end of December 2024 . Looking forward to 2025 . What's on the horizon

What's next for Noughty

Speaker 2 42:40

for Naughty , for the , for the new year ?

Speaker 1 42:43

So I'm trying to elevate myself with a new blend in wine . So I'm working on that I was tasting last night and we've also got a really interesting upspec just something a little more complex coming with our Stills branding , which will launch I'm not sure when I'll be speaking publicly through this podcast , but may or may not have launched by the time you air this denise oh , is that across ?

Speaker 2 43:15

uh , all of the still range or just one skew in particular across ?

Speaker 1 43:19

the stills . I just it'll just fit in a more elegant way , I believe , with the sparklings that's exciting .

Speaker 2 43:27

That's exciting . I mean , I I wasn't , um , I wasn't being hyperbolic in the in the introduction , when I said you are one of the leading non-alcoholic brand and you are in so many spaces , every event that I go to , uh , everyone that I speak to you're , you are that household name within the space and and it's amazing and it's wonderful . But it's also wonderful to hear that you're not resting on your morals with that oh god .

Speaker 1 43:52

No , I'm the opposite , denise . I mean probably like you I'm . No , I mean I'm not very good , like most founders , at pausing and celebrating .

Speaker 2 44:03

There's always so much to do , yeah , yeah always that keep pushing forward what's next . And we have to be careful , don't we ? You know , that we don't end up with that sort of shiny object syndrome of going right , I gotta do this and then I'm gonna try this , and but we do need to make sure that we keep innovating and keep iterating and and keep improving , because people want us to do that . You know they want , they want us to keep making things that that help make their lives better and , in in ways , new but still within our wheelhouse . Or , as you say , staying in our lane but improving that lane all the way . So I think that's fantastic . You mentioned price points and people being able to have this as a household staple . So two questions before I let you go . One is where do people go to find out more about naughty , to purchase a bottle ? Uh , obviously , I know you're in lots of venues , but those who are listening at home and want to get something delivered , where should they go and find you ?

Speaker 1 44:56

just to our website is best , and then you contact us direct . I've been religious about a customer service . Um , we pride ourselves on it . You will talk to us all direct at hello at thompson and scottcom , our email . I can hopefully share it as part of your podcast , but our website is super easy . It's just naughtyafcom and that's naughty with an o , and all my american friends love the af .

Speaker 2 45:22

It's alcohol free absolutely , and I will make sure , yes , that that email address and website address and your instagram and all such are all in the show notes for people so that they can go and find you , reach out with any questions or just try some of your amazing , amazing drinks . Um , before I let you go , it's time for my final question that I ask everybody who comes on the show . So , um , as we've mentioned , it's

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 45:46

winter at the moment , but cast your mind back or forward to a nice , hot , sunny day and , uh , imagine you're off to a barbecue at a dear friend's house . Other than several bottles of the amazing , amazing naughty , what else do you like to drink in the low , no , or light space if you're not consuming alcohol ?

Speaker 1 46:06

so I usually embarrassingly go to San Pellegrino . Sorry , sorry , uh , but I've recently discovered Jiffa . I've done a beautiful new spritz . I think it's coming out shortly , so it'll probably have launched in 24 . And if I could mix that with naughty sparkling chardonnay am I allowed to do that ? Then that would be my , my drink fantastic , fantastic .

Speaker 2 46:31

You've given everyone a new recipe to go and try out .

Speaker 1 46:33

So , of course , you're allowed to do that exactly , amanda .

Speaker 2 46:36

Thank you so much for your time today . It has honestly been a pleasure speaking to you and getting to know more of your story and to share your journey with lono nation . I'm very excited for what you've got coming out in 2025 . And we'll be watching the journey with with a keen excitement and wishing you all the best and everything you're doing , because I think that you're achieving something that's really special . You're representing a lot of people , a lot of women , a lot of founders , just people across a lot of spectrums who are looking for that quality and that next step to allow them to enjoy a life less intoxicated , on their own terms . So thank you very much for all of that oh , your support means everything .

Speaker 1 47:14

I really appreciate it , denise . Thank you so much to you .