Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

I actually think non-alcoholic is really boring . Now , I think non-alcoholic is not great , it's boring , it's not exciting . You know , tequila is exciting . What they're doing and the people that are involved and the rocks involved , it's wicked . Right , the drinks that they're making , the parties that they're throwing , it's awesome . But non-alcoholic just wasn't like that . It's very low energy , it's almost too serious and everyone's fighting for the same piece of the pie , right . But then the pathfinder came knocking and I was like , okay , let me have a look at this brand .

Speaker 2 1:44

Before we get started , just a really quick question . Have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom ? Forward slash free gifts . Well you should .

Speaker 2 1:54

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands who are leading the Lono and light alcohol revolution . Today I'm speaking to Rish Rivalia , the UK country manager of one of the most unique brands in the space the Pathfinder . This is a drink that has been going gangbusters over in the States and now they're here to do the same here in the space the Pathfinder . This is a drink that has been going gangbusters over in the States and now they're here to do the same here in the UK . There is very little , if anything , that I have seen or tasted in the low-no space like the Pathfinder , so I'm really intrigued to find out more about them and also their attitude and their approach to the way they see the low , low and light market . Rish , has a lot of background for us to draw on , so I'm very excited to have you here today . Thank you for joining me , rish . How are you doing ?

Speaker 1 2:46

Thanks , denise . What an intro . How good . Thank you , you're welcome . We've chatted before . It's always a pleasure , so thanks for having us on the podcast . We've chatted before . It's always a pleasure , so thanks for having us on the podcast . It's going to be an exciting chat .

Speaker 2 2:58

I think so . I think so . You know it's like you said . We met before over a call like this and I definitely felt an affinity to a lot of the stuff that you were saying . And you know I meant what I said in the intro about you guys , and your attitude towards the space is one that connects really well with mine .

Rish's story

Speaker 2 3:16

But before we go too far into that , I always like to start by asking my guests to introduce themselves to Lono Nation and tell us a bit of your own story and your own background . So start where you want to start . How did you end up where you are now ?

Speaker 1 3:29

All right . Well , I initially got into the drinks business . So I started my career at Diageo , like a lot of people do , and I actually wanted to be a really amazing bartender the likes of Kevin Armstrong and Mike Sager . They served me on a night out in November 2009 . That was a long time ago and I was like , right , I want to be an amazing bartender . But then got offered an interview at Diageo and ended up down that route , so brand side instead of the bar side .

Speaker 1 4:07

But I've always had a love for the stories behind brands . The liquids um , you know , it's just an exciting space , you know . Know , I love hospitality . So I ended up at Diageo , went to work in luxury whiskey after that at the Dalmore and then got asked to go on a survival expedition , which I did 18th century lifeboat , essentially with people , and yeah , yeah it's , it's called Mutiny , so it was on Channel 4 in 2017 . So I got asked to do the survival expedition and obviously , when , when you're going through starvation and you've got a lot of time to think and you're being battered by the elements , you start to really think about who you are , what you want to do , where you want to be . And when I got back to civilization . I thought , okay , I'm done with with alcohol industry . So it wasn't that was done with alcohol , I was just done with the industry . You know , there was a lot of late nights , there was a lot of partying there , there was a lot of socialising and I love a social , I love going out , I love being around people . But this was I got to a stage where I was like I think I'm done .

Speaker 1 5:25

At the time that seed lip had just started to announce that it was launching and they were building out a team and my mentor is a lady called Emma Wikes , one of my mentors . Emma Wikes , um , she is an incredible human being . I'm sure you know she is , and if you don't know everyone , if you don't know she is , go and find out . And if you get , if you're lucky enough to meet her or get to know her , then lucky you . But she , she was looking to build out a team and grow the team . That seed lit .

Speaker 1 5:55

Long story short , I did a bit of work for them in the UK but then ended up moving to Australia and , um , yeah , I ended up running uh kind of sales for seedlet in Australia and then across Asia Pacific and we had a great team , a really versatile team , and we just had the best time , you know . So taking seeded from zero to to what it was in in asia and australia was just such an incredible journey . And then worked to work , went to work for another couple of um non-out brands . So I had the opportunity to go back into booze but I decided I wanted to stay in on out and then when we decided that we wanted to move back to the UK , I was actually ready to leave the non-alc industry .

Speaker 1 6:45

I think I had such a great experience at Seedlit that everything that after that just didn't really it didn't really scratch the itch . Um , there's a lot of brands out there that are doing they're trying . Um , some brands are out there just to jump on the bandwagon . They're like , okay , there's actually a non-out gin in australia called bandwagon gin zero .

Speaker 1 7:10

It's there because they were like right we're just jumping on the bandwagon , um , and there's a lot of , you know , there's a lot of opportunists out there and I was , you know . So I was like I actually had the opportunity to work for one brand for a short amount of time and they were incredible . They're called c drift right , incredible founders , wonderful people , brilliant people . Um , it's just really challenging in a really crowded space to cut through and get that global reach and , you know , get distribution . But they were brilliant . So it's just , I was ready to kind of right , I'm leaving the non-out space , I'm ready to get out , I've done my time . But then when I got to the UK , the pathfinder wanted to launch and I said initially , I said no , I was like , you know , I actually think non-alc's really boring now I I think non-alc's not great .

Speaker 1 8:02

It's for it's boring , it's not an , it's not exciting . You know , um , tequila's exciting , like what they're doing and the people that are involved in the rocks involved , like it's wicked right , and the drinks that they're making , the parties that they're throwing , it's awesome , but not out just wasn't like that . It's very low energy , it's almost too serious and everyone's fighting for the same piece of the pie , right . But then the pathfinder came knocking and I was like , okay , let me , let me have a look at this brand and got to meet the three founders . Well , yeah , there's three founders involved and I was like , wow , they've got some real good experience . They are really good people , they know what they're talking about . So that was like that's a big , that's a big draw .

Speaker 1 8:50

You know , I think in this non-art space there's a lot of founders with little experience and high expectations and that all that can sometimes lead to because they know what's in the industry , they don't understand how the industry works . And there's a lot of different people from different backgrounds in this space now , which is great because it's diverse , but it's also not great because they don't understand how the industry works . But the founders of the pathfinder , they totally got it . They know what they're doing and they everything that they're doing with this brand was intentional , so they weren't just flying off the seat of their pants and , you know , fingers crossed , hopefully this works . They were very intentional . So that was the first thing . The brand itself I was like , wow , look at this brand . Like there's nothing like this in the space . There's no , no , no , there's nothing like this . It's really interesting , it's cool and exciting .

Speaker 1 9:45

And then the last one I was like , oh , the taste , like it's got to taste good . Ultimately , it's got to taste good and I think the problem that non-alcoholic has had for the last well , since the whole category began in 2015-16 , is that it doesn't taste that good . A lot of non-alcoholic brands don't taste great . The fact that they're on the bar , the fact that they're available , is really powerful , but when consumers or people that drink alcohol , like people like me , who are into taste and flavor and texture , if you try it and it's not good , you're very put off for going back again , right ? Um , there's a lot of different strategic plays here . Price plays a plays a role , I think .

Speaker 1 11:03

I think the category isn't well defined and so there's basically like soft drinks and syrups claiming to be non-alcoholic . What does that mean for the category ? So it's convoluted , but when I spoke to the Pathfinder , it was very intentional . They knew who they were . As a brand , the liquid was unbelievable . It's extremely versatile in alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks . So , yeah , I snapped up the chance and we have just properly and officially launched in the uk now which is why we're having this conversation as well and um , here we go . This is this is the start of an incredible journey building on what we've done in the US .

Speaker 2 11:52

Amazing . I think one of the reasons I was excited to get you on Rish is because I know that you are a man of strong conviction and and you've already

Why non-alc is boring

Speaker 2 12:00

made that clear in in your opening statement and I love it , so I'm going to keep going with that . You made a really bold statement there that non-alcoholic is boring . So what makes the pathfinder not boring ?

Speaker 1 12:14

well , when I say non-alcoholic is boring , I mean that I think it's sometimes a little bit too serious and I think the angle of non-alcoholic isn't necessarily the angle that the majority of non-alcoholic drinkers possibly want to hear . Okay , I think it's something that non-alcoholic brands have got hold of and they're driving it right , and one of those angles is that non-alcoholic is wellness , health , well-being , calorie counting , penny counting . I I don't think that's true , I think that's . I think that's wrong . Um , being not out being a statement for , but not out being a statement for sobriety . I think that's not necessarily accurate or true either . A lot , you know the state . The statistics speak for themselves . You know almost 90% of non-out drinkers drink alcohol . So , going at 90% of people who drink alcohol by saying alcohol is the devil , alcohol is really bad for you , the calories are really bad for you , it's going to ruin your life . Yes , there is a , there is a specific , you know , demographic , who . That is absolutely true for you know , and like we're not saying that alcohol is good for you , but you know , for the majority of people that have a healthy relationship with alcohol and sugar and fat and exercise , it's a holistic approach to lifestyle , right , and I think that's why 90 percent of non-alcoholic drinkers drink .

Speaker 1 14:00

Non-alcoholic is because it makes up part of their lifestyle and what you want to do is have a brand that speaks to you and goes are you not drinking today or for this round of drinks ? Because if you're not , do you want something that tastes great and looks cool . It's like , yeah , okay , I don't want something that's going to say to me if you drink alcohol , you know this is the worst thing ever . I don't also want it . I don't . I don't think that non-outlends itself to health and well-being . I think healthy lifestyle , eating well , exercise , you know , if you meditate , like meditation , these kind of practices , that's what leads to health and well-being . And then having good non-out options plays a role . But I don't think that they go hand in hand . I don't think they do .

Speaker 1 14:49

I think non-alcoholic plays a role in hospitality . I think non-alcoholic plays a role in going to a bar and having good options , great options , delicious , tasty , really good looking options , non-alcoholic , low ABV , full strength , whatever you want , right ? That's where non-alcoholic plays a role . A role and at home it should be . If you're not drinking for any reason , well , let's just make you a great drink . Everyone's included , everyone's having a great experience and being entertained together . They're not being singled out and they're not necessarily saying I'm drinking non-alcohol because I'm into health and well-being . That you know . I don't necessarily . That's not my , that's my viewpoint . I don't think that they go hand in hand . I don't think that's that's cool . I think that there should be a little bit more fluidity between alcohol and I think that they should just be hand in hand . They go , they go hand to hand . You look at the back bar and there'll be non-out brands within out brands . That's how it should look . It's not . That's the yoga side of stuff . Tequila , that's the party side of stuff . It's all the same , I think yeah .

Speaker 2 15:57

Yeah , it's a really interesting point , because I think that what's happening now is that we're seeing this emergence of different ways of looking at it , because I think you're right , it did always . It was always positioned as this is the healthy alternative , this is the new way of living , this is clean living . This is good for you . But you're absolutely right , not everybody who is drinking low and no cares about their health and well-being in that moment and I'm not suggesting that they don't care at all their health and well-being in that moment . I'm not suggesting that they don't care at all . I'm suggesting that you don't necessarily pick up a bottle of non-alcoholic beer or wine or spirits because you want to be healthy . You pick it up because you want to have a drink that doesn't have alcohol in it . And I think that what we'll continue to see is this sort of almost divergence between the two types of brands , because there are brands that are made by founders who are very , very passionate some I've spoken to on this podcast . They're very , very passionate about the no alcohol approach . They don't want booze around their drink and they want people to know that you don't ever have to have drinks again . And then there are a lot of other founders I've also spoken to on the pod , who are far more in your camp , that are like look , look , I didn't make this for sober people . I didn't make this about sobriety . I made this because I want a really good drink and I don't want to feel like crap in the morning , and that's the sort of .

Speaker 2 17:16

I'm really intrigued to see how this is going to play out because , as you said , you know there are a lot of people in the space who don't necessarily know what they're doing , because , no , not many people in low and no have come from a background where they go right , okay , this is what I did with this drink and it worked . So now I know what to do . A lot of people are going right , I'm going to solve a problem here and I'm going to make myself a drink and I'm going to sell it and I'm going to see what happens . Yeah , yeah , and I commend that . You know that that's amazing .

Speaker 2 17:44

It's what I did with the magazine . I was like , right , I've seen a problem , I'm going to fix it . Do I know what I'm doing ? Not really , so there is an element of winging it , but it's going to be interesting to see how those play out together . I think I mean you've seen a lot , obviously , from being with Diageo and the amount of brands that they would have had

Growth is coming

Speaker 2 18:04

and what they did . Do you think maybe that because of your experience , your expectations are slightly different ?

Speaker 1 18:11

yeah , yeah , I was going to say that . You know , I think if you come from the industry , then you've got realistic expectations yeah , um one thing that make no like mistake here non-alc is huge .

Speaker 1 18:24

Um diageo just bought Ritual in the US . They bought their second non-alc brand right . So they got Seedlip and they bought Ritual . So they definitely see the growth of the category and everyone that I speak to we're definitely seeing the growth of the category . But I think that's really a key point the growth of the category Non-alc isn't huge , gigantic it's not .

Speaker 1 18:48

I think we talk about non-alc more than it's being drunk . Right , interesting , I think that it's it's more of a buzzword in hospitality than it's actually being drunk . I had a meeting with a bar last week , one of the best bars in the country , and I asked him how much of his total set total drink sales is non-alcoholic 0.6 percent . So we're talking about it a lot , but 0.6 percent of his annual drink sales is not out . So why are we talking about it ? And the reason that we're talking about it is because of the growth , because he appreciated that there were more people that were interested in it . His bartenders were interested in it .

Speaker 1 19:40

But if there's not good options and good brands for him to work with , he's not going to put up a menu . He's far too credible a bar . So that's one side . The other side of it is there's a lot of brands out there that are literally going to bartenders and saying here's a check , fill your menu up with our non-out brand and we'll just pay you to put it on there . Is it paying back ? Is the volume there ? I don't think . I don't think so , not for everybody . There are certain groups and venues , but for every bar going in with a check and saying put my brand there , you know it's commercially viable , it's not . So we're talking , as I said , I think we're talking about non-alcohol more than it's being drunk , and I've just gone off a tangent there .

Speaker 2 20:38

It's a good tangent and this is a good time to be . You say that bar , for example , they say that 0.6 percent of their sales are non-alcohol . But the question that because I had a similar conversation with somebody else recently and the question is it's a very chicken and egg thing , right , because what comes first ? Or what percentage of his offering is non-alc , and how much effort does he put into communicating to people that is non-alc ? Is it 0.6 percent because nobody wants it or because nobody knows that they can buy it ? And I think you make a really good point .

Speaker 2 21:11

You know we're so wrapped , those of us in this space , um , and I guess the same with anybody in any industry . You know it becomes your world really . You know it's what you see and so you think everyone else is talking about it and you go out there . You realize that nobody else gives a crap . But you know I can't help but think of all the articles that are coming out in the times and the guardian , and and and standard and and everyone . There are a lot of people talking about this now . Even within the last six months I've seen such a a growth . So what comes first ? Do we need more venues to put in more drinks and to have more faith in brands like yours and and others ? Or do we wait until there's more demand and then we service that demand ? I , I don't know which , which one .

Speaker 1 22:02

Yeah , yeah . As I said , I think that if you put options on a menu the options that are available right now , if you're going with a check and saying put this brand on your menu , people try it and go . This isn't very good .

Speaker 2 22:25

Yeah , yeah of course .

Speaker 1 22:26

So if the options that you have aren't great , the category won't grow . Have aren't great , the category won't grow . But the bars

Why bars are struggling to stock good n/a drinks

Speaker 1 22:42

are struggling to say no to a blank check . Sometimes , when you know they times are tough , there's a cost of living crisis . So if someone's going into your bar saying , look , use my brand , I'll pay you to do it , you're going to do it , but they're going as a bar brand . You're thinking , well , that that's a really good , cool brand and it tastes great and it's not a soft drink being wrapped up as a wine or whatever , or or a spirit being or a concentrate being wrapped up as a spirit . You know they're going , that's really cool , but you've got to take the money . You're going to take the money and these , some of these brands are saying we want exclusivity and I'm coming up against it a lot right now .

Speaker 1 23:18

Exclusivity Does that give the consumer a diverse range and options of drinks ? No , so to your point , the chicken and egg . Right now , you're basically going . If you're trying none out in bars and restaurants and it's not very good , you just won't go back . Now , if you see something like the Pathfinder on shelves , for you know , £35 , you're probably going . Well , that looks expensive , right , I would never buy a bottle of wine for £3 , right , right , I just wouldn't , because with cost comes quality , not all the time , but you know , sometimes and you know the way that we've been programmed is , if you think if it costs more than you think it's going to be better , right , well , what happens is you go into the supermarket . You go , okay , that's four pounds a bottle , three pounds . But you try , it doesn't taste great . When you go into a bar , you know it's a big chain , there's only one brand on there . You try a couple of them . It doesn't taste great . You're never going back into the category , you're never going back into non-out , right ? So it's , um , yeah , it's .

Speaker 1 24:29

We're at a stage now where we've got a lot of brands in the space . The space isn't that big , as I've just said . You know , I think out of total global alcohol sales , nolout makes up something like 1.2% , you know , which is . I think it's pretty good , you know , because global alcohol sales is a big number . So 1% of a big number is pretty good , but relatively speaking , it's still just 1% right Now . If there were good products , good brands and a level playing field for these good brands to work with bars , restaurants , supermarkets , et cetera , et cetera , then that 1% could easily go up .

Speaker 1 25:13

Because when people are picking up a bottle of gin , they'll also pick up a bottle of non-al and they won't necessarily look at the price because they're going .

Speaker 1 25:23

I know that this tastes good , because when I go into the supermarket , this supermarket only has good quality products , you know . But right now , what we're doing is we're just going far and wide , put everything on the shelf a bit of try it , do you like it , what's working , what's not , and then the bars , the restaurants , the supermarkets and everyone in between , they'll start to filter it out and , as I said , there's some great brands coming out at the moment , um , and they're they're kind of higher price point bit , you know , more premium , and the liquid and the brand backs up the price point and I think that little loop there is . What is what the pathfinder is doing as well ? You know we we're not , we're not going to play the the price wars . We're not going to , you know , just sell the pathfinder for three pounds a bottle , yeah , yeah , you know , for people to to buy it and try . It's not what we're doing .

Speaker 2 26:17

We're building a brand and there's , you know , as I said , I think there's some really cool brands and brand owners out there that are doing the same thing and I think that time will tell and I think that that those brands that are subpar for whatever bar that is being set , at the end of the day , quality will win out and consumers . You're right , and one of the biggest challenges I think we have in this space is exactly what you said , in that if someone tries something and it's not fantastic , they can be very unforgiving and go all right . Well , I tried that one wine and it's not fantastic . They can be very unforgiving and go all right . Well , I tried that one wine and it wasn't nice . Therefore , it's all rubbish , whereas , you know , I often say you wouldn't go to a restaurant have a burger and not like it and then go right , I'm never eating burgers , ever again , but with low no , that seems to be what people do .

Speaker 2 27:09

But as , as the category grows , I think , as people demand better quality and as producers learn better what their consumers want and how to make it , those that aren't quite up to scratch will soon find that they just can't compete . They just won't be able to keep up because people won't come back . They'll try one or two , but they won't keep coming back . People won't come back . They'll try one or two , but they won't keep coming back . Let's bring it back to the Pathfinder a little bit , because I know that you

Tasting The Pathfinder

Speaker 2 27:41

and I can go off on tangents all afternoon long , so I've got a bottle just here . So , for those who are watching on YouTube , you can see this bottle . And this is just indicative of the brand itself , what they stand for , the character , the personality , and I want to know more about this . So let's start with the liquid itself , because it is unique and it is different in this space . So , first of all , how does it taste and why does it taste like that ?

Speaker 1 28:10

Okay , so the idea behind the Pathfinder , the liquid , was to be bold , you know , to be complex , to be interesting , to be exciting . It's not mimicking , it's not mocking , it's not a fake version of anything . The Pathfinder is the Pathfinder , right , and I think that's really important . So , if you want me to try and explain the taste , we call it a bitter elixir , right , a magical , mystical bitter elixir that will awaken your third eye , you know , and it will solve all your problems .

Speaker 2 28:47

It is the solution .

Speaker 1 28:48

It is the solution , but it's got like a sweeter stuff , like front . So the start is a little bit sweeter , almost cola-esque . The mid-palate you've got like Douglas fir , so it's quite piney . You've got notes of ginger sage and then the finish is long and it's bitter Not too bitter , but long enough to leave a bitter taste in your mouth , which means that you're not going back to it again and again like you are with soft drinks . Um , so the the idea behind the liquid actually came from cannabis . So one of our founders , chris , he's out in seattle and owns a cannabis business . And when we , when we think about the future of drinks and what does the future of the back bar look like ? You know there's probably going to be drinks on the back bar with no alcohol , but they'll be somewhat functional or created with other um , other , um , other grains , right .

Speaker 1 29:53

So right now , if you look at vodka , whiskey , you've got barley , rye , corn , all these kind of grains , but no one's ever used hemp seed . Hemp seed itself is a grain . So the idea was to , you know , maybe have a CBD or a THC version , a functional drink . But once the liquid was created it was like , well , actually there's nothing like this in the non-alcohol space . There's nothing which is as robust , as as powerful , as strong . And one thing that's really important is there's no preservatives . There's no nasty preservatives in there . So for those health and well-being people you know they're looking for this on the label you know there are no preservatives , it's all natural , um , and really importantly , this is , you know , we talk about non-alcoholic and why it's the challenges that we face . One of the biggest challenges is shelf life . You know , once a bottle's opened , a lot of brands say he's only got three months in there . I opened a bottle of something recently that I had and it just went bang , you know , big pop , and it all started to ferment in the bottle . So the pathfinder's overcome all of these challenges , which is why I said it's very intentional the way that this brand is created , the way that the liquid is created . It's intentional , there's a two-year shelf life on it . It's without any preservatives . That's unheard of .

Speaker 1 31:16

Yeah , so some of the sexier things about the Pathfinder isn't necessarily the branding or the liquid , it's the fact that it works . You can have it on your bar , you can have it at home and it won't go off . You know it's incredible . So back to your point , the liquid . You know it's really complex and exciting . It's versatile and it's complex enough to mix with alcohol .

Speaker 1 31:40

So if you wanted to mix it to create a low ABV drink or just to have an alcoholic drink and use the Pathfinder as a modifier , it will stand up . It's got the body and it's got the complexity to do that , whereas a lot of non-alc , they would never put it into an alcoholic drink because you just won't taste it . There's no texture , there's no taste to it . It just won't add anything to it . And for those brands , own the non-alc , you know , do what you're doing is own non-alc and be great in that space , whereas the pathfinder caniner can straddle both and I think it's really going to bridge the gap between alcohol and non-alcohol . So everyone at the table can have a par-finer drink and it can be as alcoholic or non-alcoholic as they want .

Speaker 2 32:28

You're absolutely right that depth and layers of flavor is what people are looking for , and I think , as people begin to explore more and want more , that's definitely something that I keep hearing a call for from people .

Speaker 2 32:41

You know , where is something that has that complexity , where is something that has that depth ? I like that you mentioned that you have a two year shelf life . That's really . That's really impressive , because , yeah , a lot of these brands in these spaces we're talking about a few months , which , if someone's going to open a bottle and drink it within a couple of weeks , that's absolutely fine . But , as with most things in life , you know you'll open it , you'll have four or five different things you'll be trying and then you'll open one and put it there and , you know , come back to it later . And it is one of the challenges , of course , in the space without alcohol , which is a fantastic preservative Without having that , you need to find other ways . So I'm impressed that you've managed to do it for two years with no artificial preservatives in there . So we do have something for the health and well-being guys .

Speaker 1 33:23

You know it's there , if you want it .

Speaker 2 33:26

Your tagline is the destroyer of bad vibes . I like that . What does that mean ?

'Destroyer of bad vibes'

Speaker 1 33:33

The power of violence of . I like that . What does that mean ? The Pathfinder as a brand is really provocative . We're sarcastic , it's tongue-in-cheek . So what we're saying is that we're out there destroying bad vibes and it's almost taken the dare I say it . We're almost taking the piss out of non-alc , because all other non-alc brands are out there saying like good vibes , only health and well-being . It's very slow , we're using negative language to say something positive . You know , and it's , it's , it's brilliant really , it's really interesting . It's really funny . It's exciting , it's funny , you know , it's funny .

Speaker 1 34:16

If you have a look at the , the label , it says that we're , you know , immediate , really for malaise . And then we , which is basically saying you know , we're a cure for boredom , you know , um , there's very no . Alcohol brands categorically cannot say statements like that . But because we're non-alcoholic , we can and we are , and we're not saying that you know , this is going to cure all of your problems , but it's , you know , we're having a laugh and saying drink this and you'll be less bored . So the destroyer of bad vibes also just means that everyone can be a part of this . It's just a bit of rock , but basically rock and roll in a very subdued space .

Speaker 2 35:03

So where do you see then ? So I've got two ways . I want to take this , obviously , you know , in terms of the Pathfinder themselves , and then your your views on on on the industry and where we see it going . So , but let's , let's stick with the pathfinder for now , then we'll circle back to so you know what , what you can see , because you know you've got such great experience that I want to just want to be nosy and get your your thoughts on . But so the pathfinder originally launched in , uh , the states , so it's a it's a us brand . What made you all decide that now was the time to to broach the

Why is now the right time to launch in the UK?

Speaker 2 35:40

, the uk , because you must have seen something in the way that the uk is going to go right . Or was this always just part of the plan that , in end of 2024 , this is your next stage ?

Speaker 1 35:54

yeah .

Speaker 1 35:54

So the pathfinder , as I said , you know , chris is chris's business and is based out of seattle , so that's where we get the hemp seed . So if we just go back to that , like the liquid and all that quickly before we talk about how it's grown in the us , so it's fermented and distilled hemp seed . There's no cbd , there's no thc , it's not a functional spirit but , um , the brand makes it , you know , makes you feel however you want to feel . You know , um , there are things , as I said , I mentioned a couple of the botanicals ginger , sage , douglas , fir , saffron , wormwood , angelica root , these juniper . These are all botanicals that lend itself to the depth , texture , the mouthfeel , the complexity . These are all , these are all what makes that , this special elixir , what it is . Um , it started off in seattle and that state , washington state , quickly really took to this brand . Um , it's now available in New York , san Francisco , la , chicago , miami , um , soon to be in Texas , the state of Texas as well .

Speaker 1 37:05

So the US has really taken to the pathfinder and I think the main reason is because it's because the branding and the liquid just speak for themselves very much . You know um it got , I think it got to a stage where we recognize that the US is just such a beast . You know , it's such a big place , there's a lot going on , there's a lot of noise and the UK is actually really sophisticated . It's the most sophisticated non-alcoholic market in the world , right ? I think that since seed lip launched here in the UK , consumer got their heads around what non-alcoholic is quite quickly . Non-alcoholic beers have been around for a long time . There's a lot of non-alcoholic beers and they're brilliant . So that's an easy entry into the non-alcoholic space .

Speaker 1 37:59

Now , you know , then , when consumers have been trying the likes of seed lip and other brilliant non-alcoholic spirits , it's just got to a stage where the consumers tried a lot . They're invested into non-alcoholic and now they're refining their choices . So this is what we've already talked about pretty much , isn't it ? It's going big and wide , but I already think that the non-alcoholic consumer in the UK is going yeah , all of that not interested . It doesn't look right , it doesn't feel right , it's not the right brand for me , not right liquid , whatever it might be .

Speaker 1 38:34

What are the good ? What's the good stuff ? Um , so the pathfinder . I think it's just really important that we are speaking to the most sophisticated consumers for non-alcohol in the world . Um , the uk's brilliantly set up to be able to get non-out products to these consumers , to bars and restaurants . It's not as big as somewhere like Australia or the US , so the plan was always to launch the Parfiner into the UK and work with and alongside great non-out brands and great alcoholic brands as well and you know , I think you're right this is a very sophisticated market .

Speaker 2 39:19

I think the the UK non-alcoholic drinker is is very wise to what's happening . But I think that's because we are very sophisticated alcohol drinkers . You know , we've spent a long time figuring out what we like when it comes to booze , uh , and so , moving into non-boos , we come and and , for the good and for the bad , we bring a lot with us in terms of what we expect from a drink , you know , particularly an adult drink with an adult flavor palette . So I I can see that that would be both a benefit to a brand but also a really big challenge , because you've got to break through right . I mean , you've got to break through what preconceived ideas people have to then get them to open up their minds to something that's equally good but very , very different yeah , and , as I said , I think I think the narrative needs to change .

Speaker 1 40:13

You know , we shouldn't be talking about sobriety the whole time . If 90% of your consumers who drink your non-out brand also drink alcohol , let's just speak the language that they want to be spoken to in . You know , I think it's really straightforward . If that consumer then goes on that non-out journey and wants to drink more and more non-out , good for them , you know , but that's their . Let them . Let them have the choice . I don't know if we should be um ramming it down their throats .

Speaker 1 40:44

And we probably saw this in the in the food industry a while back , where you had like conspiracy came out and then there was a lot of vegans and vegetarians and there was a cultural shift towards better options for vegetarians and vegans . And now you go to any restaurant , there's brilliant options . Chefs are really curating dishes for vegetarians and vegans and you know , that's probably about 15 years ago and I remember really thinking about the cultural shift of menus and options and the fake meat and just creating great dishes out of the ingredients that you know chefs already have . And and I think that's really relevant to what's happening in on out today um , and I think the , the UK consumer . To your point yeah , we've been drinking , you know , alcohol , a lot of it for a long time . But now that the culture is shifting , it's about giving them really good options and really good experiences and getting them to make their own mind up as well so how are the pathfinder helping with that part of the journey , though ?

Speaker 2 41:55

in terms of , because I like your

How to get the bar industry enthusiastic about low/no

Speaker 2 41:57

, your analogy of like chefs , and you know , because I've been in hospitality for a long time and I can remember when the whole , you know , vegetarian vegan thing meant nut roast and the tomato pasta and you're like , come on , guys , let's , let's do better .

Speaker 2 42:10

And now you're right , chefs are excited to make amazing non-meat dishes for people . How do we get that same enthusiasm uh , sort of coming from the bartenders , coming from these , these bar managers and these venue owners to go from yeah , okay , I've got to have a couple of non-alcs , let me have , I'll have one beer , one spirit and and one gin to getting them to go yeah , this is amazing , I'm going to make some fantastic drinks , because I think that's part of the challenge that we're still facing . Right , it's back to that sort of those bars that you're speaking to . What ? What are brands like yours doing to like ? Help get that that good vibe going in those bartenders so that we can produce better drinks for people yeah , I mean you say goodbye , but I'd say we're destroying the bad ones .

Speaker 1 42:59

But of course sorry my apologies .

Speaker 2 43:02

How do we destroy those bad vibes and get those good ones going um ?

Speaker 1 43:07

you know what I ? There are bartenders who are pushing back still yeah and they just say not out shit , it's not good , it doesn't taste good , and I tend to agree with them , right ?

Speaker 1 43:19

I'd say , yeah , you're right , but there's a two-pronged attack One the drinks have to taste good , they have to be cool brands , they actually have to be a brand . I think that's really important for bartenders to build something towards . And the other one I think you know we've just got to speak their language . We've got to speak the language of the bartenders . Traditionally , non-alcoholic drinks have cost a lot less than alcoholic drinks . So , whilst you know the non-alcoholic , everyone in NOLO can't wait for January . Like I hate dry January , right , I hate it because my mates work in bars and if everyone in January is not going to the bars , the bar industry really struggles . And if they are going to bars and they're drinking soft drinks for three , four pounds rather than a cocktail for eight to 12 pounds , they're struggling to pay their rent , pay their staff . Hospitality struggles and , as I said , I love hospitality . So I'm not a fan of dry January . What I'd prefer is for bartenders to use great products and great brands to create no low and full strength cocktails for everyone , whether you're drinking or not drinking . But the main reason , main thing is , is to send people out into bars and restaurants for the whole of January . Right , I don't think that conversation happens enough , and that's what you said , that .

Speaker 1 44:54

What's it going to take for us to destroy bad vibes with these bartenders ? Speak their language , let their language , let's just , let's just talk to them and find out what's important to them . So a few . One of the things that we're doing with the pathfinder is we're creating menus in bars , if any . Any bartenders or bar owners are listening to this . We will help create a menu with you to do no , non-alcoholic , low abv and full strength cocktails with the pathfinder . So whoever's coming into the bar , they have a great experience . They have a full strength cocktail , low abv cocktail or a non-alcoholic cocktail , and they will all be brilliant , like they'll all be great because we'll work with the bartenders , we'll create , create and curate a menu for that bar and everyone will have an inclusive experience , a truly inclusive experience . And , importantly , it's not about charging three pounds for the non-alcoholic and 12 pounds for the alcoholic . Price point should be the same . You know , if it's a real brand and a real product , the price point should should reflect that as well absolutely , and I and I and I love that .

Speaker 2 46:00

You know that's . That's what it should be , because , just like when you're out with your vegetarian or vegan friend , not everybody in the group is is eating that same way and you need to have great options for all of them . And and the same thing with the , the person in the in the group who's not drinking the alcohol you know , I love , you know I say a margarita . I'm all going out with your friends and everyone's having margaritas and I've just got to have a lemonade . That that's . That doesn't cut it . But if the menu can say you know , whatever the drink is and you can choose , you know medium strong or or non-alcoholic , then we're all in right and and everyone's having a good time .

Speaker 2 46:37

And and to your point about sort of people not going out in in dry january , sober october , dry july , all these rhyming months , um , I really want to encourage anyone who's listening to know that if you are doing these months , don't stay at home , go outside , because all you're doing is teaching yourself that if you're not drinking , you can't have any fun . If you're not drinking , you can't have any fun . If you're not drinking alcohol , you can't go anywhere . And the opposite is , is needs to be true , and we need to get into these bars and we need to go and speak to these bartenders and say what have you got for me ? I'm not drinking . What can you give me ? That's going to be amazing . That's going to let me have a good time . And the more we do that , that the more they then go to people like you and and your counterparts and say right , okay , people are asking for this stuff . Now I need to come up with something .

Speaker 1 47:26

Help me yeah , and you know bartenders are creative , so they they should be excited if it's a brand new product in a brand new category . Why wouldn't they be excited about playing around and creating something brand new ? You know , it doesn't have to be a fake margarita or a , you know , a fake version of something . Just let's get creative and , you know , use our um , use the signature serves and use these classic cocktails as a base , but definitely elaborate on them and do something a little bit different , because there are some great non-alcoholic brands out there , some great non-alcoholic spirits . I mean , if you look at like All the Bitter and like Season , you know they're great products , great brands that are now giving us an opportunity to be creative with non-alcoholic spirits . So you know , bartenders , get out there , just play around , reach out to the brand owners and get your hands on a bottle , play around with it and you can then give your customers , your consumer , you can give them really good , hospitable experiences . You know , the drinking experience is one thing , but the overall experience of going in oh , what have you got ? Oh's great . What does it taste like ? It's so and so a riff on an old-fashioned , a riff on a margarita . It's a . You know it's not exactly a margarita , but it's a twist on that with this brand .

Speaker 1 48:50

Because of this , this , this reason , you're going . No , that's awesome . What a great experience , you know . So we just need more . We need more of that . We need open mindedness , I think I I feel sorry for the , for the UK bartender . They have had a lot of rubbish not out brands , so they are . You know , they're burned by it . They're going oh , this is , this is not good , this is not interesting . Or like , yeah , it's a bandwagon product . You know , we're just jumping on the bandwagons and , you know , have an option , not because they care about it , but because they just need to have one .

Speaker 2 49:26

But there are other brands out there that are really creating special products and liquids listening uh , who want to in uh , engage your services and help them make a menu . If they're consumers listening that want to go and try your amazing liquid , where do we send them , rish ? Where's the best place for people to go and find out more about the pathfinder and to get their hands on a bottle ?

Speaker 1 49:51

so you can go directly to our website , drinkthepathfindercouk . Um , you can get your hands on a bottle there . Um , reach out to me directly . Or if you go onto our website and just email the hello at , someone will get back to you . Um . And then for bartenders and restaurants , they should , you should be able to get it through your for your wholesalers amazing , amazing .

Speaker 2 50:16

I will make sure that's all in the show notes for everyone and I do highly recommend that there are . You know , if there are venues out there who are struggling with their offering and they know that they need't know what it is , I don't know where to start . So if they want some help and they want to know where to start is to reach out to to yourself and other brands in the space that are willing to help , because most of the brands I speak to they want to , to make this a better experience for everyone . I'm saddened to hear about , you know , brands trying to get exclus , exclusivity , at the expense of building the category , because until we can build the entire category , no one's going to win . So let's spread this opportunity far and wide and make it better for everyone .

Speaker 1 51:12

Absolutely . Let the bartenders decide whether they like something or not . Don't pay them to make a choice .

Speaker 2 51:19

Absolutely . Speaking of which , it's time for my last question , because , whilst I could keep you on all day , that would be rude to your time . But my final

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 51:27

question is one that I think you're in a great position to answer , and it's one I ask everybody who comes on the show . So I appreciate that we're recording at the end of the year and it's not very warm outside , so cast your mind forward to summer and it's barbecue season and you're off to a barbecue at a mate's house and you're bringing some drinks with you on a day that you're choosing not to imbibe full strength alcohol other than , obviously , several bottles of the pathfinder for everyone to be enjoying . Uh , what other drinks in the low , no or light space do you like to enjoy when you're not having full strength alcohol ?

Speaker 1 52:02

okay , I like this question but it's really hard because there's some amazing products out there , amazing brands out there . Um , for dinner in the wine glass , it has to be dinner in the wine glass , it has to be muri . I think they are standout , exceptional it's . It's the best in the game . And the real drinks guys in the uk are also fantastic . Um , and you probably won't like this and it's a bit of a cop-out , but shout out to Guinness Zero . Like I'm a Guinness Zero guy , it's brilliant . It really scratches the itch , tastes brilliant . I got a drop of pint in the Devonshire not too long ago . It's great .

Speaker 2 52:53

Do you know what ? It's okay , because actually , guinness Zero is one of the most recommended drinks . When I ask this question , we're recording in December and Zero is one of the most recommended drinks . When I ask this question , um , we're , we're recording in December and at the end of the year I'm going to release like the top five most recommended drinks , and Gillis is definitely up there . Uh , so I'll allow . I'll allow it , it's okay , I would .

Speaker 1 53:14

I am going to shout out um , I am going to shout out season as well . I think they're really cool . You know ben branson and emma white's getting behind that and you know the salt and pepper the whole marketing thing about it's brilliant . And if you've actually tried them with the pathfinder or with other non-art spirits , or even on its own in some kind of soda or soft drinks , it it turns it up , it's great yeah , I mean , I think think Ben and his creativity you'll know far better than I are something to behold .

Speaker 2 53:44

He's actually coming on the show in a few weeks and I'm very excited to talk to him about Silver , which is his new dark spirit made from wood . I believe I want to get my head around how he's making these drinks , but everything so far has been highly complimentary about it . But everything that I've heard about the Pathfinder as well Rish has been highly complimentary . You know , everyone who I've spoken to absolutely loves the liquid and I personally I love your attitude in that you are supporting people who want a drink that tastes amazing and you're not saying that this has to be a sobriety conversation . This doesn't have to be a health and wellness conversation . There's no qualification that you need to find your way to the Pathfinder and I think that's really important so that people know that they're all welcome to drink at our table . You don't have to have a story , you just have to have a drink .

Speaker 1 54:44

Yeah , you've absolutely nailed it , you know . I think you've hit the nail on the head with that . Hospitality is for everyone . You know . You don't have to be pregnant , you don't have to be driving , you don't have to be sober , you don't have to be into health and well-being , you don't have to be pregnant , you don't have to be driving , you don't have to be sober , you don't have to be into health and well-being , you don't have to do yoga . You just want a good drink , and you might not be alcoholic . You know , and you know . The last thing I will say is shout out to some of the brands out there that are doing a good job . Everyone's trying their best , and if there are any really cool non-alcoholic brands that want to collab with us as well or even alcoholic or non-alcoholic please reach out . You know we're working with everyone .

Speaker 2 55:27

Fantastic , Amazing Rish . Thank you so much for your time . My dear , have a great day .

Speaker 1 55:36

Thank you , cheers , denise .