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Speaker 1 1:12

People look at plants and look at their garden and think , ah , just plants . As I said earlier , they're some of the most powerful things on the planet and obviously there's lots of illegal ones . Now we're not going into that today . You know there are ones , in fact , on our original brew , one of the ones , which was it was on the legal side in the UK , but Amazon and their algorithms at the time when we were trying to get listed with Amazon , they were like nah , and that's Syrian roux .

Speaker 2 1:43

Before we get started , just a really quick question . Have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom ? Forward slash free gifts ? Well , you should . Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the Lono and light alcohol revolution . Today I am talking to Chris and I should have asked you this beforehand Is it Kazikeos ?

Speaker 1 2:07

Kazikeos yes , good , yes , yes , fantastic , we can go with that .

Speaker 2 2:13

Tell me how I should say it properly as a curious .

Speaker 2 2:16

There you go okay , that's , that's close . Chris is the founder of on beer and , as you can hear , he is good people , always with a smile on his face , even through the toughest of times . Uh , today I'd love to have a chat about the journey that on beer has been on . I first found out about the brand uh about a year or so ago . Chris and I first spoke , and they've been through quite a few changes in that time . Chris describes his beer as not just a drink , but it's a mission , and I want to find out more about that mission what drives it and how Chris sees OnBeer as fitting into his passion for holistic well-being . It's also not been easy . There've been challenges along the way , as many founders have faced , myself included , so I'd love to dive into some of that as well . So , chris , thank you very much for joining me . How are you doing today ? My lovely Thank you .

Speaker 1 3:06

Thank you for the invite . No , it's a pleasure Really , really yeah , really chuffed to be chatting with you today .

Speaker 2 3:18

Thank you , thank you . Well , it's good to have you here . Uh , chris is uh wearing a great t-shirt . He's got a choose life t-shirt on it's , giving

Chris' story

Speaker 2 3:23

me positive vibes . I'm loving it , um . So let's talk about life then . I always like to start by asking my guests to take us on a bit of a journey , uh , through what led them to where they are now , because launching an af brand is not something that everybody can do um , nor should they um .

Speaker 1 3:39

So I certainly don't recommend it for everyone you need to be made of tough stuff . I'll share more fantastic .

Speaker 2 3:46

Well , start where you want to start , chris . What's the journey that led you to to be speaking with me today ? How did that all come about for you ?

Speaker 1 3:53

wow , how far do I go back ? Um , well , I suppose , really , I suppose it all comes back to health and well-being . So , from the the age of 15 inspiration arnold schwarzenegger all over the tv everywhere back in the 80s , and obviously you know as a as a young lad sort of growing up , you sort of look at this guy who's on the TV screens sort of a gladiator as such . So I started going to the gym at the age of 15 and got absolutely addicted to it . I would go seven days a week . Sometimes I only missed for like 10 years . I only missed five , three , four , five days a year . Wow , so it was a real big passion thing for me and I presume it's just the goodness that it just evokes inside you the endorphins , the serotonin , everything . It just gets your body , you feel good about life . So I suppose that was my sort of journey to sort of in well-being and realizing how important it was in in my life . So and then I went away studying and , uh , college and at uni and got into and a big group of friends got into that drink culture because it's , it's a rite of passage . Yeah , I mean , that's how it was back in back in the day , um , and I sort of was always at a disconnect with alcohol . It's sort of you know , my wellbeing was so important to me and all my training , but yet I'd go out X amount of nights per week , get absolutely trollied with my friends , feel like crap , be in the gym trying to build myself from feeling good again , and yeah , so I did that for a long , many , many years . But then , luckily , when I finished well , not luckily or unluckily when I finished uni , I actually studied construction management and it was I'll show my age now .

Speaker 1 5:47

Cast your mind back to the early 90s . It was a big recession in construction , so I actually never went into it or applied for numerous jobs . Never went into it . And the gym I was training at at the time never went into it or applied for numerous jobs , never went into it . And the gym I was training at the time they offered for me to become a fitness instructor there . So I went and did a YMCA fitness instructors course and did that for a few years . Really , really , really enjoyed it and obviously training was still a big part of my own personal life . So so did that for a few years .

Speaker 1 6:16

But then obviously branched out into industry , into sales um and marketing , and ended up sort of navigating various areas of marketing . Uh , worked for one of the well , one of the ones you'll know is a big , well-known one called sachi and sachi . So I worked for those guys and the sort of European stroke global capacity in a specific area of retail um , and yeah it was , it was like being schooled . It's like getting paid and being schooled . It was like amazing , really amazing time . So it's sort of set up for a lot of the things of actually where we've got to today and obviously the , the um sort of premise of of launching and creating on beer wow , that's quite .

Speaker 2 7:04

That is quite a journey , and I suppose you're um , it's quite interesting . You talk about the , the time that you went to the gym for for so many years and probably only missed about five days in in years , and the reason why that rings with me is because it just shows the tenacity and dedication that you must have within you to make such commitments to the things that you hold important and that you see value in . And that is , I'm sure , what's led to you being able to continue to keep going through tough times , of launching through , not knowing which way things are going to be going .

Speaker 1 7:43

Yeah , I'm sure most people , most listeners , are aware life's not easy . It's a challenge . You sort of get knocked down all the time . It's just about keeping getting up again and that's what it is . You know it's . It is challenging again and and that's what it is .

Speaker 1 8:00

You know it's um , it is challenging and and I suppose our sort of how actually went into so obviously on one of the co-founders of on beer , with my business partner , james jacoby um , and our sort of journey started . Well , actually um was during this sort of covid . That seems like a yonks ago , that covid thing , dare I mention it that time , when I was watching the program and it was all on telly about . It was on channel four , it was um about the launch of a product that was um gave you the effect of alcohol without the alcohol and didn't damage your health , and I was like , wow , this sounds phenomenal . It was about to launch , it was in sort of pre-launch mode and I reached out . I reached out to the owners of them , got chatting with them , um and actually went in and became part of the , became part of the business and james was one of the co-founders of that business , which is a brand that obviously you're well aware of 70 of spirits .

Speaker 1 8:51

So , um , and was working with the amazing professor david nutt and just from spending time here , as soon as I sort of got in there and it was like that light switch moment where I just stopped drinking alcohol straight away . Once I actually learned the full impact of alcohol and what it does to your body , I was literally boom gone . I'm not touching that again , just switched . And so that was three and a half , four years ago and not drunk since , and all for the better . As I'm sure you're heard by from lots of people you know in this sort of sector who , I suppose some still drink but others who don't . And yes , I'm quite passionate about not drinking . Um , but yeah

Non-drinking spectrum

Speaker 1 9:34

, I don't know how controversial you want me to go about alcohol , because I've got deep-seated views about it now from the amount of sort of knowledge that I learned from professor nut , which is just phenomenal .

Speaker 2 9:44

He's really a leading light in , in , in in that area yeah , I mean , I think most people have have heard of uh professor nut in some way , shape or form , or at least of sentia and the Gabba Spirits .

Speaker 2 9:58

I'm hoping to one day get him on the podcast have a chat with me , you know , in terms of you know , their approach to alcohol .

Speaker 2 10:06

I think it's really fascinating because I speak to a lot of different founders , obviously on this show and really they run the gamut , because there are founders that I speak to who are very much alcohol-free and very anti alcohol and then there are other founders who I speak to who still drink on a regular basis but are making alcohol-free drinks .

Speaker 2 10:28

So what I like about that is that it's representative of the consumer that is out there drinking these drinks , because not all of the people that are picking up alcohol-free drinks are alcohol-free people . Right , they are people who are looking to be alcohol-free for a time , for a drink , for an occasion , um , and I think it's important that we represent all sides of that , you know , and I think it's important that we have everybody , from the , the 100 alcohol free to the still sober curious to the I'll just have what I fancy when I fancy it it's , you know , no , no , drinker isn't a sobriety platform . We're not a recovery platform . I'm not qualified to to be uh either of those types of people , so I I don't , uh , I don't I don't I don't .

Speaker 2 11:16

But I think that we are now in a world where where a lot of people have a lot of opinions about alcohol and about alcohol free drinks . But what I like is that it means we're having the conversation because , you know , I think you and I are probably around a similar sort of age range , you know , when you're talking about the nineties and that's longer than me .

Speaker 2 11:35

Oh , no , no , no , darling , I just look it . But thank you , I'll take that um . But you know , when I was working in in hospitality , you know these conversations weren't being had you know there weren't menus with dedicated alcohol-free sections , and now that's happening . It's not . They're not doing it very well , but they're starting .

Speaker 1 11:55

You must remember then , how bad Calibre was .

Speaker 2 11:58

Do you know what I remember ? I do and I don't ? I remember just not having any consideration for it . I knew it existed and I remember people coming into my venues back in the day . I can't remember which brand it was now , but he had an alcohol-free drink and I couldn't have been more dismissive , and my bar I couldn't have been more dismissive and my bar manager couldn't have been more dismissive . And I think back now and you think I was just that's just not cool , but it was just the way that it was . It was there's no money in it , there's no interest in it , no one's asking for it . Why should I stock it , whereas actually now there is interest in it ? But , more importantly , if we don't stock it , then nobody is going to ask for it yeah .

Speaker 1 12:37

So times change massively and I'd say all for the good as well . So it's um , you know it's exciting , it's exciting times and I think really it's still

Powerful plants

Speaker 1 13:17

in its infancy , massively in its infancy . So it's an exciting area and category . That's sort of blossoming from so many different sides which makes it exciting absolutely so let's stick with the beer .

Speaker 2 13:33

I want to know a little bit more about the journey of ombis . Are you and james ?

Speaker 1 13:37

uh , you met you so we met , we were um obviously . So I was dealing a lot with this trade and customers and getting a lot of um sort of feedback oh wow , this is amazing . You know , obviously in a spirit form , when are you going to bring this out in beer ? And there wasn't um a sort of from the ceo . There wasn't . There wasn't that sort of tendency to sort of want to go down that path . So I'm trying to say that in a diplomatic way . So james and I both exited um after chat ends and decided to exit and set up on beer um and to then develop that um similar plant science and integrate it into a new product which is in beer so ?

Speaker 2 14:24

so what is on beer , then , and , and what makes it unique ?

Speaker 1 14:30

so it's obviously zero alcohol and I don't want to get into that whole debate on whether it's nought point . This nought point , that nought point , is classed as zero alcohol but packed full of powerful plants that give um you an uplifting , elevating effect . Obviously there's no alcohol , so there's no downsides so I mean , it's a fascinating area .

Speaker 2 14:54

I think , and I found that whenever I share episodes or articles or content about this more sort of functional way of drinking , people are really , really interested in it . At the moment , and I think it's really to use your word you used earlier on blossoming in the zeitgeist for consumers to go I'm not drinking alcohol or I'm drinking less alcohol , but I want something that gives me something more than just plain liquid .

Speaker 1 15:23

Yeah .

Speaker 2 15:24

So can you tell me , without giving away any proprietary secrets , what are the kind of ingredients that are in on beer and what are they doing for people ?

Speaker 1 15:34

so they're things that go back thousands . We've been as humans . We've been using these for thousands of years . So they've come from chinese medicine and ayurvedic sort of practices . So humans have been using these and discovering the power of plants a thousand years , that they are still to this day , some of the most powerful things on this planet plants . So , and you know they have , and as humans we've synergistically grown up with them and symbiotically grown up with them through millennia . So our bodies are accustomed to them and use them and and and zap them up and and love them , and they've been used for sort of wellness , for wellness , for elevating the way you feel , to combat disease and lots of different areas .

Speaker 1 16:21

So , um , it was quite a challenge . So there's , you imagine , there's thousands and thousands of plants . So , james , I'll tell you the bit that I know , james is obviously our sort of drink chef , so he's he's the master on that , and he's been working with powerful plants for about 20 years or more , so he's the sort of more of the guru on that side . So he must have worked with like quite a few hundred different plants and and and recipes and iterations and how to actually integrate them . Because you know , we found out . I'll get onto that we found out the hard way .

Speaker 1 16:54

Trying to mess with beer , which has been pretty static for thousands of years , is quite challenging . So obviously what we're trying to do is take initially on our initial brew , we add sort of nine powerful botanicals , integrating them into a non-alcoholic beer . As such , that would give you that elevated nice effect that people like , stimulate those neurotransmitters , your GABA , your serotonin dopamine areas . Give them nice feelings that we get from having a few drinks , take that weight off your shoulders , make you feel nice and then obviously , alcohol then starts overwhelming lots of your other systems and functionalities in your body which , because ours doesn't have any alcohol in it . We don't get any of that element , it just makes you feel good . None of it , none of the rubbish or crap that comes with alcohol and sort of that .

Speaker 2 17:47

That feel good feeling is how long does that last ? Or ? Or , you know , is it quite

How does it make you feel?

Speaker 2 17:53

intense or is it just like a mellow buzz ? What's that like ?

Speaker 1 17:57

so obviously we get feedback all the time for our customers and they're our most important asset . We listen to our customers all the time and it's like anything , it's subjective , so it depends on the setting what you've eaten , how much you , how much you've drunk previously . So we found that before at sentia . It's like you know , if you're a big drinker and you've overstretched let's call it your gaba system with alcohol , then trying to stimulate it using sort of these powerful plants is a lot more difficult and more testing than it is for someone who hasn't experienced that from alcohol . So I remember being at an event a few years ago and it was a Muslim lady who'd never drunk alcohol and we gave her some of the drink and so she'd never experienced that buzz from alcohol . But so obviously we gave her some of the spirit and she came back and gave me a big hug . 15 minutes later , big smile on her face , absolutely buzzing Goes . Oh my God , I've never felt like elevated like that before .

Speaker 1 19:05

So it works with different people and to different levels . So we do get asked this a lot and people think why am I ? Am I going to get pissed ? We're like well , no , that's a different thing . That's alcohol getting you discombobulated , wobbly , all your senses start going , everything starts numbing up . You know , it's that nice bit when you sit back and have one to two drinks and you feel okay , and you haven't got discombobulated . That's the nice effect . That's what we're trying to , that's what we , that's what we're delivering and is .

Speaker 2 19:39

Is it with these drinks ? You know , can somebody sit there and drink this throughout the evening ? Is there because

How much can you drink?

Speaker 2 19:45

you've got powerful plants in there , as you mentioned ? Is there sort of like an rda around ?

Speaker 1 19:50

around it . So I'd be . So I'd say really two to three bottles of an evening with Derrick and obviously , in the thing of science and research , myself and James we've overcooked it on it and yeah , it's really weird . It happens differently and obviously you think I've not drunk for nearly four years , so it has a different impact . So I get a fizzing on my chest and like that nice fizzing and you feel nice and like buzzing , um , and I remember like we've overcooked it like 10 , just in the name of research done , 10 drunk , maybe 10 drinks over a long period , like of an afternoon into fruit to an evening , and was feeling pretty wired , like three or four o'clock in the morning like waking up , like so again , people look at plants and look at their garden and think they're just plants .

Speaker 1 20:48

As I said earlier , they're some of the most powerful things

Legal ingredients

Speaker 1 20:50

on the planet and obviously there's lots of illegal ones . Now we're not going into that today . You know there are ones , some of the ones that we had , in fact , on our original brew , one of the ones which was it was on the legal , on the , on the legal side in the uk , um , but um , amazon and their algorithms , because at the time when we were trying to get listed with Amazon , they were like nah , and that's Siri and Roo . So anyway , in our latest . So we decided to take Siri and Roo out of the current version that we've just relaunched so that it doesn't cause that issue with Amazon when we get onto Amazon .

Speaker 2 21:32

Okay , fantastic . So for those who are watching on video , I've got with me here . Oh gosh , don't knock things over a bottle of your new and a bottle of your previous .

Speaker 1 21:45

So , if I can get these , look

On Beer 2.0

Speaker 1 21:46

at this .

Speaker 2 21:47

So this was the original that I met a year ago . Yes , and then now this is OnBeer 2.0 .

Speaker 1 21:56

2.0 , exactly . So what's ?

Speaker 2 21:58

the big differences between these two liquids , then Well , one of them doesn't foam anymore .

Speaker 1 22:05

let's put it bluntly , Okay .

Speaker 2 22:07

You can open it safely yeah .

Speaker 1 22:09

So this is so . We'll see . As you trade , you trade . You know it hasn't been easy . We're quite open about how stuff's been . So , like business , you get , you get , you fall over , you get yourself up again . You get knocked down out , you get yourself up again . So , and it's all part of the product development , so we're doing something quite unique . So I never expected it was going to be a bed of roses , far from it . So , um , all and and I suppose both of us , me and james , quite ballsy . So we went , went for it , right , this is fine . Boom , smashed it out , and then we discovered in the early part or early part of this year , obviously , once we had shit loads of product , that there was a a problem with it where , unless it was chilled down to like two degrees , which sort of brought down sort of all of the powerful botanicals in it , down to a sort of stable level on opening , you've got a foaming , so quite painful for , um , obviously a business a scaling business startup .

Speaker 1 23:06

So we then had to work with um very closely , um with a brewing lab , um , and and we at the time we didn't know whether we'd be able to overcome it . You know the thing for us with on beer , we didn't want to just play with it , we want to do it properly . So we're not like messing about , for us it's all about the effect , um , so we didn't want just put in a small little bit and a bit of extract and we do it , and we're going to do it properly , because that's what people are going to judge us on is the effect . So we went , we go full , full blazing for us . So in in one of our bottles there's 11 grams of powerful botanical matter in there .

Speaker 1 23:48

So so we didn't know when we were working with the lab whether we'd be able to overcome it . So it was quite a worry really , as a product that's quite unique and we're sort of developing it forward on our journey , it's like how much of a hurdle is this going to be ? So in the end it took about six months , with various iterations of changes of the recipe and how it was all put together . And , luckily , why I'm sitting here today is we managed to crack it . So when our our latest version 2.0 then launched into our well , we brewed it and now it's in , obviously in our warehouse , as of about three or four weeks ago so did you just have to stop trading for some time whilst you ?

Speaker 1 24:36

Yeah , we sort of it was sort of trickling along and we were trying to inform our customers and it was a difficult time . We were trying to inform them that the way to overcome it like foaming is to chill it down for a couple of days down to two degrees , then open it and it should be quite stable then . And unfortunately not everyone has their fridges set to the right temperature we found out .

Speaker 2 25:00

So , yeah , yeah , no , because I'm just thinking about that and you know me going and opening this now because my fridge is at four degrees or five degrees or something , so I might stick it in the freezer for half an hour first I don't want to waste it .

Speaker 2 25:10

You might want to do that so talk to me about the flavor profile then , because you know we've talked about all these ingredients in there , that they do these magical things , but obviously you're delivering it in in a way that people can enjoy it as well . So does it taste particularly planty ?

Speaker 1 25:27

um , it does . So it's quite distinctive . You can't hide it , you know . You think the the standard , standard beer product's got three or four ingredients in it and we , you know , we've got them , plus another eight on top of that . So we can't disguise it , but we want it . So that's part of the challenge . So we want it to taste like a beer because obviously that's what people are wanting to , um , taste and what's what they like . But obviously effect is what we need to deliver . So we can't , you know , if we stripped out a lot of that then you wouldn't get the effect . So it's sort of a swings and roundabouts sort of thing really . So , yeah , it's got a distinctive flavour , but it's quite .

Speaker 1 26:08

You know , with the latest version it's quite hoppy and we brought the hop flavour forward a lot more . And the latest brew we're working on at the moment is , in fact it's in brew . At the moment it's going to be slightly even more . So , like any product , it's continual improvement , continual development . So we're going to bring the top flavour forward even more to sort of balance it out . But because we use the full plants in the in the brew process , it adds to a lot of the complex flavor notes in there and it adds to the flavor . So you tell me , hopefully you've tried it . I don't know what you think .

Speaker 2 26:46

Obviously lots of ah , very good here we go , so I've got some here and actually that was one of that's one of the flavors that I was going to uh mention because I felt I thought it was quite I'm going to join you and have one as well please do , please do um . I found it to be quite hoppy as well , um , and I wasn't necessarily expecting that . I didn't know what I was expecting um , but hops also are a very powerful plant , aren't they ? Because I think , think , hops are quite underrated .

Speaker 1 27:15

Massively , massively . They're super , super , super good for you . So anyway , cheers .

Speaker 2 27:19

Cheers Chin , chin .

Speaker 1 27:24

This is the right type of podcast when we're drinking beer it is , it is .

Speaker 2 27:27

You know , my job is tough .

Speaker 1 27:28

If you're owning a beer company , you can sit and drink beer during the day , exactly All day long .

Speaker 2 27:33

I mean I've done many a tasting in my career and normally I wouldn't dream of starting one at 11 o'clock in the morning because it meant I wouldn't be able to make it through the shift for the rest of the day . Now we're all good .

Speaker 1 27:43

It's all good , we like that , yeah , yeah . So flavour-wise , it's got quite deep flavours , it's quite yeah and it's got a bit of bite about it . So it feels like a beer , it feels like an IPA-based beer and , yeah , it's slightly different to the others because you find look , I'm trying not to be controversial , I said I wouldn't be .

Speaker 1 28:05

Go for it . But , like your comment from earlier , you know , in the sector and obviously it's a bandwagon that lots of people have jumped on , including the big brands , and there's a reason for that which we might , we might touch on and discuss . But I don't know you tell me , is that from a lot of the non-alcohol beers you've tried is are there ones that you find that are really really good , and are there ones that you find which are , yeah , not really so good ?

Speaker 2 28:34

I mean obviously I . I think that you know anybody who who tries uh beverages in in this space , no matter which category you're in , you're going to find some that are really lovely and surprise you and you go oh , that's actually quite nice you know , I've got favorites , I've got things that I really enjoy , and then they're going to be .

Speaker 2 28:50

other times you taste stuff You're like what ? What the hell is that , why ? Why is it in my glass ? And that is a real , a very real challenge . But what I want people to recognise is that it's probably a real challenge for the whole sector .

Speaker 1 29:03

Yeah , and the effect . Obviously for us the effect is paramount , that's our number one . But obviously aligned to that is taste , because you need both . People need to like it . They're not just after the effect , they're after both the effect and the taste . So he needs to taste well and that's to do with the mouthfeel , the depth , because a lot , as soon as you strip alcohol out of a lot of the adult drinks , they become very , very light um , and don't have the mouthfeel of the alcohol versions and and that's that's where a lot of disappointment lies for consumers . I would say , in that , and hopefully with ours , can't say because it's packed full of all of those powerful plants , we , it adds to that whole mouth , feel the , the thickness element of the , of the , of the liquid um , and it improves , improves that as well yeah , absolutely , and it's definitely got a , a finish and a last to it , which is one of the things that I think a lot of people looking for when they look for , uh , non-alcoholic drinks .

Speaker 2 29:59

Is that something that has that ? Doesn't just you stop and then fall off a cliff ? You know you want something that that continues on in that flavor ? Um , yeah , I think I think absolutely . You're right . You know it's because everything is still in its infancy with , you know , low and no and light drinks .

Speaker 2 30:16

Whatever your path , somebody goes down . I think we are , uh , in a stage at the moment where there is so much choice out there which , first and foremost , is fantastic that people should have choice and that they can have different things , and no matter what you uh used to or still like drinking , in the alcohol side , you can probably find an alcohol free equivalent or adjacent or a complement to it in some way . Are they all good ? No , of course not . Um , but I think that time will tell , because I think that people will just stop buying things that taste shit , quite frankly , and then only those that can really deliver what consumers are looking for are going to stand the test of time , and that's why it's important that brands , like you've done , iterate and pivot and take feedback on from consumers . But it's also on the consumer as well to communicate that .

Speaker 2 31:13

We've got to let brands and founders and professionals know what they're doing well , because everyone needs a pat on the back sometimes , but where they can improve , because if we don't tell them what we want , then they can't give it to us .

Speaker 1 31:27

Yeah , exactly , and every day is a school day . I'm a great believer in that . You know , the day you stop thinking , the day you think that you know everything is it's a bad day . So for us , we learn stuff every single day and I've got that mindset myself . You know exciting every day should be exciting to learn new things and learn customer feedback and learn what's new and what the trends are and what people are looking for . So , you know , we sort of switched on to that and and like like a lot of , a lot of brands are , and rightly so . You know , it's an important thing . And you know famous saying , you know that I learned in my sachi days , you know , and I and I say to I used to say to lots of business , who who owns ? Who owns , who owns this business ? And they say , well , there's this shareholder . It's like , no , it's your customers who own your business . And don't ever forget that , because without your customers there is no business . And that's a lesson that you know . I think most brands need to always remember that .

Speaker 2 32:29

Absolutely . I think that brings me on to something else that I wanted to ask you about , which is you know the way you communicate with your customers and

Marketing rebrand

Speaker 2 32:37

the and the and the brand that you're building around on beer , because I've seen quite a change in in the way you're presenting yourself from when I first came across you . Um , you know , if you don't mind me saying that , when I first saw on beer , your sort of your socials , and everything was very stylized , it was very trendy , lots of beautiful people wearing beautiful clothes and looking young , and you know quite modernized .

Speaker 2 33:03

It wasn't you darling , it wasn't . But now when I look at your accounts and at your communications , it seems quite different . When I look at your accounts and at your communications , it seems quite different . You seem to have , first of all , obviously , something I like to see you've diversified in terms of the skin tones that you can see in the people who are talking about your beer that you're sharing , which for me , obviously as a black female , it's very important that we see diversity and let everybody know that they can drink in this space but also the tonality of what you're putting out there , there to be a lot more humor in in what you're doing now was that a conscious choice that you kind of went ?

Speaker 1 33:40

we want to change our approach . I'm a great believer . It's not working . Change it , and you know we like .

Speaker 1 33:45

So our product is full of good stuff okay , it's actually and you gotta be careful what you say but everything in there is really good for you . Your body zaps it up . It likes all of those powerful botanicals . They're all good things that your body enjoys . And , like all good stuff , good stuff is expensive .

Speaker 1 34:07

So we get asked that question why is your product expensive ? We get asked that question why is your product expensive ? Because it's full of good stuff and it's unique and it's bringing something to you which a lot of other products don't . So we thought , because it was expensive , we thought we needed to portray luxury and have that sort of positioning . But then we sort of soon realized that that didn't connect with the customers that we had . So we pivot quite quickly and we realized , well , maybe that's not our brand positioning point . It's the best for us . Who is our target market ? And we then ? So , as you've noticed , we have sort of rebranded . We've come a bit . It will make us feel more accessible to a wider audience . What do you think ? Do you think it's a good change ?

Speaker 2 35:04

I think it was quite possibly one of the best decisions that you've made , because you're right , I think the very stylised , the very luxurious , the very luxurious , the very high end , uh , yes , of course it serves . It serves a purpose . Um , I don't think that it makes a product . It doesn't say that this is for for everyone . It says this is for you if yes and then you have to fill in those .

Speaker 2 35:29

You know you have to rise to those uh standards that the if implies , whereas what you've done now is you've brought humor into it , you've . It's not quite so polished and it just makes it far more relatable . And then that makes me go oh yeah , okay , I , that's that's for me . I can give that a try and that's what you need , right , you want people that give it a try , because if no one's going to try it , then they're not going to come back to you .

Speaker 1 35:54

It's the old adage in this category liquid on lips . We want people to try it and hopefully have a great experience , and that's what we want , and then for them to come back tell their friends and family about us and build that community . So that's what we're . Yeah , it's important for us .

Speaker 2 36:10

Excellent . So if people do want to try some and I've got a couple more questions for you , but just as we're on that , people do want to try some where's the best place for them to go and find you ? We're talking about your socials as well . Where can they go and see and learn more about OnBeer ?

Speaker 1 36:25

Yeah , get to our website Again . As you know , we've changed that , we've updated . It's something that is in continual improvement all the time . We never say it's finished , um , it's continual improvement . So , yeah , google on beer and go to our website .

Speaker 1 36:42

So at the moment , yeah , we're just on , on , on on a website and predominantly our sort of our short-term aim is to be a direct consumer um brand , but that's .

Speaker 1 36:51

But we're in talks with various hospitality people at the moment and some retailers , but it's all part of the journey . So at the moment it's direct to consumer and luckily , I suppose , for us on that , the world has sort of changed where , as consumers , we're quite comfortable now Clicking , buy , click , click arrives the next day and thanks to amazon and you know and the way people shop on on websites , they're quite comfortable with that this day and age . So that's a that's a good thing , because you know we could open up a can of worms about the whole getting listed in supermarkets and that whole journey . And I'm sure you spoke to lots of other brands in this category and I've had meetings , industry meetings , where this topic comes up all the time people trying to get on the shelf in Sainsbury's , tesco's , waitrose , morrison's , blah , blah , blah and the hoops you have to jump through . To do that , you know is quite challenging and obviously the margin you give away is huge as well . So it's a whole other topic .

Speaker 2 38:04

So that's not on the horizon for you , it's not next on your to-do list , it's not next on the to-do list .

Speaker 1 38:11

But it's certainly on the to-do list .

Speaker 2 38:13

Yeah .

Speaker 1 38:13

It's something . We're having conversations all the time on that front , and so yeah , but for the time being , it's building a big enough community , because that's what all these retailers are going to want to see and other platforms . They're going to want to see the size of your community , how many people are buying , what your sales numbers are , all those things , and that gives them the confidence . It's pointless us getting listed in 250 Waitrose stores and we don't have enough awareness about it because all of a sudden it's just going to sit there gather dust . It's going to cost us a fortune to have put it on there and then it's going to get pulled and that's going to be a disaster for the brand . So it's all part of the brand building journey .

Speaker 2 39:01

So what are you working on at the moment in OnBeer ? That's really exciting . You , what's the most exciting thing that you guys are doing

What's next for On Beer?

Speaker 2 39:09

at the moment ?

Speaker 1 39:10

So at the moment we've just got the one product and we're just developing the next one or two . Oh so , and that again , we want to involve our community . So on , that is what , what are they looking ? What are they looking for ? So you know , we have one which we're very happy with , but we realize different people have different um favorites in in in the beer world , whether that be a lager , whether that be a stoutout . So we're investigating that at the moment Okay .

Speaker 1 39:47

And again it's all to do with the science . So obviously what we're doing is quite a difficult thing , so it's quite time-consuming to actually make it work and test in , and test in , and test in again and getting the iterations right , the formula right , the recipe , and making sure everything works together and sync yeah , I can imagine actually that your your timelines are possibly quite a lot longer than than your average non-alcoholic beer or drink , because there's just so much more involved .

Speaker 2 40:20

You've got like you said there's four ingredients in in in beer and then you've got like eight to twelve in in in yours um , so there must be a lot more hoops to jump through , both tasting and red tape .

Speaker 1 40:33

I can imagine yeah , there is , there is , so it takes . It takes quite a while and I'd say the original one beer is 18 months in development really so from us thinking up the idea and getting it through to having a finished product . So it's it's quite time consuming okay , all right .

Speaker 2 40:51

Well , in that case , I will keep my eye for the new developments and hopefully you'll come back and tell us a bit more about it we will yes yes , but remember , guys , you heard it here first . There's more to come from .

Speaker 1 41:01

On there is more to come .

Speaker 2 41:02

Yes , fantastic , chris , I'd love to speak into you and there's obviously a lot more that we could cover , um , but , like I said , I'd love to get you back

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 41:10

on again . But before I let you go this time , I have my final question , which I always ask everybody who comes on the show , and that is because I want to spread the love across all of lono nation . So we're recording at the end of 2024 , the very end . So it's cold , it's very cold . So I want you to cast your mind back to the summertime , when it was nice and hot and sunny . When was that ?

Speaker 2 41:33

It happened once I think it was in the 90s and imagine it's a hot sunny day and you are off to a barbecue at a mate's house and you're bringing some drinks along with you . Now , obviously , first and foremost , it's several bottles of the amazing amazing on beer 2.0 thank you of course , but what else do you like to enjoy in the low no space ?

Speaker 1 41:59

so I feel really bad now saying this , but should I or shouldn't I ? So I should feel really bad no , you should say it .

Speaker 1 42:08

So for me it's guinness zero . Okay , it's phenomenal , it's so good I love it , I really do . I think it's phenomenal and and yes , it's a big , massive conglomerate the agio , you own it , and but they've done such a good job of it , such a good job . And you know my friends who drink and they drink Guinness and we can go out and I drink Guinness Zero and they're like let me try that . It's like there's no difference , it's that good and yeah . So I know it's a big company and maybe I should have said something else , but for me , being totally honest , I think it's a phenomenal liquid and it really is , and its popularity is just shown . I was reading in the press yesterday that there's a shortage of .

Speaker 1 42:54

Guinness and all of the bars in the UK are literally limited to stops and apparently the younger generation are leading this their love for guinness . Because I think , wasn't it ? I said the prince , the prince princess of wales , was seen , and you see , and prince william was seen drinking guinness , and you've had kim kardashian seen drinking guinness . So it's the cool . It's the cool drink to have to drink .

Speaker 2 43:20

So uh yeah , it is . It is at the moment . It's super cool . I'll be honest with you , like you shouldn't feel bad for that , um , it is . I keep a note of all the um drinks that founders recommend , because I'm really interested to see , obviously , and guinness is one of the most recommended uh drinks by other professionals in our industry . So you're , you're in fine company . Um , I can't stand it , but , but I don't like full strength guinness either . I just don't like guinness , so it's not a drink for me . My husband loves it , it's a marmite .

Speaker 2 43:54

It's a marmite and I think I think it's really funny that you know . Um , you're right , like all these young people are drinking . What , when I was growing up , was an old man drink ? You know , when we were younger it would be something that you know your granddad drank , or you know , the old men down the pub is like , yeah , well , I'll have a pint of Guinness . Now you've got these young , trendy , beautiful people all trying to split the G and it's just like when did this happen ? And it's , it's unbelievable . Yeah , that's like the whole of the UK and Ireland are struggling with stocks . Guinness is rationing it to like just a couple of barrels per venue .

Speaker 1 44:30

I know Some of them are big Irish pubs as well , where they're like saying they do 10 barrels a week and they've been offered like one or two .

Speaker 2 44:37

It's our busiest period and they're like ah , I mean a good problem to have if you're .

Speaker 1 44:42

Guinness . I'm sure BrewDog will come up with something to tackle that . Obviously with their stout version . I'm sure they're loving it . Yeah , but it is good . Guinness Zero , they've done a great job . I'm sure you're aware they've just built an extension to their brewery in Dublin specifically for Guinness Zero , and I also read that they're actually building another separate factory in Ireland . I think there's 300 million investment just for Guinness Zero . So it just goes to show the changing times where , you know , one of the most recognisable drink brands and their focus is on the zero version because of the popularity of it . I remember when they launched it you , you know , the trade couldn't get stocks of it . Um , and it's like that again now . It's so , so good , it's so popular , so it's great and it's so . I'm passionate about well-being . So the more people that drink Guinness Zero and other non-alcoholic drinks is a good thing . It's a good day .

Speaker 2 45:52

What do you , what do you think to that then ? Because , like , also , obviously a lot of people have reservations about big alcohol in air quotes , sort of jumping on the bandwagon and jumping into this space .

Big alcohol

Speaker 2 46:05

But , like you say , guinness are spending millions and millions to promote their alcohol-free version . Now , of course , they then get promotion of their alcohol-full version off the back of that , but I can't help but feel that without big alcohol's involvement , that this category wouldn't have moved as far and as fast as it has .

Speaker 1 46:28

Yeah , I agree . You think they buy up a lot of the upcoming startups and they're realizing they're in trouble . Big alcohol's in trouble . Don't hold me to this fact , but I'm pretty sure AB InBev haven't made a profit in five years . So they had their financial results a few weeks ago . So that's worrying . They're the world's biggest brewer , you know . So they're in challenging times .

Speaker 1 46:58

People aren't drinking , they're turning away from alcohol in their droves . So big alcohol is worried . I went to an event earlier on this year and all of them there Molson , coors , heineken , diageo , pernod Ricard , ab InBev they're all there and running scared . People are not drinking alcohol and this is going to be controversial . It's all the research that's coming out showing how damaging alcohol is to health and well-being . It's having that impact . People are realising that . So they're sitting there as an organisation built around alcohol .

Speaker 1 47:35

It's like , oh my God , this is changing and changing quick . You know non-alcohol is growing rapidly . You think in Spain alone non-alcohol beers are 20% of the market in Spain . You know it's massive . Over here it's 3% or 4% , I think . In Germany it might be about 11% , holland about 9% . So it's growing and growing quick . So it's that snowball effect . So they're realising they've got to change quickly and come up with alternatives . But they're buying a lot . So I think gillian anderson's g-spot that got bought by heineken . I think um dwayne the rock johnson , he's zora zora energy that got bought by molson cause . Um , I think served got bought by heineken . So they're all diversifying and they have to quickly . They're big , big organizations so they're looking at their portfolios and looking at other alcohol , alternative drinks that are booming and growing and categories that are growing a lot and sort of snapping them up because their core business is being challenged .

Speaker 2 48:41

I mean the numbers show that full strength alcohol sales have been stagnant now for quite some time , whereas low no , is growing . And you're right , I mean initially we're talking about a small starting point . So , yes , you know the growth is going to be a lot steeper . But what's happening is that soft drinks and alcohol are stagnating , if not falling , and then alcohol free is growing . And I'm sure if I'm not a scientist or that type of research , but I'm sure if we were to look at the timelines and stuff the WHO's announcement that there's no , the recommendation is that there is no safe level of alcohol to consume has had a very big impact on that , Because even those who don't agree with it are still talking about it , and then that's putting it back into the mind frame , and then these big alcohol brands , like you say , are going . This is the next big thing and this is the wave that we need to be riding if we want to be able to keep up with what it is that consumers are asking for .

Speaker 1 49:34

I'm going to be controversial here and I said I would . I said I would , but it's changing .

The role of government in alcohol

Speaker 1 49:42

Alcohol it's been really huge for humanity and for building communities and bringing people together through thousands of years it's been . It's been a really valuable tool and it's . But it's old technology , it's toxic , it damages your health and your government , your , our own governments , ignore this . They don't care about it , and that's how crooked the system is , you know , and it's going to go the way of cigarettes . I'm sorry , but that's how crooked the system is , you know , and it's going to go the way of cigarettes . I'm sorry , but that's what's going to happen with alcohol and it's going that way . And so I , and I feel for that , I feel for people , I feel for those businesses . They're big organizations built on that and and similar thing happened to the cigarette , the cigarette businesses , you know , and and tobacco and the . Look how shunned they are now and how different it was 30 , 40 years ago .

Speaker 1 50:30

I think alcohol is going to go that way . It's . It's a number one carcinogenic product . It's causes , it causes cancer , it causes lots of other health health issues for people . Um , so you know , humans , with the abundance of information that's available , which potentially wasn't available 30 , 40 years ago when I was drinking alcohol , and we think we didn't really know the impact it was having , or it wasn't widespread knowledge that the impact it was having on your health . So that's why we did it . And now this is aware to the younger generation and my generation and you know our generation and other people . They're like wow , you know , what are we putting this , this substance , in our body for ? So those numbers are just growing and growing . And what is it now ? The uk adult population , is it between 20 and 25 percent classify themselves as t total , one in four , one in five . You know that's a big number , the big number , and growing year on year as well and and and it's growing globally .

Speaker 2 51:32

You know , that's why I'm so excited about this industry . You know , I'm so excited about what it's producing and where it's going , and for the good and for the bad , you know and and how it's become a global phenomenon . Because , you know , I'm speaking , speaking to people from all parts of the world and there's places that we haven't even reached yet . You know , and I liked before where you were talking about the percentages of the no low beer market in different places , because the UK is seen as one of the most innovative places for low and no , actually , we have some of the smallest sales percentages and no , actually , we have some of the smallest sales percentages .

Speaker 2 52:08

You know , the most alcohol free beer in the world is produced in Germany , because every brew house in Germany produces alcohol free beer . There's brew houses in every single town and , like you say , places like Spain and Italy where it's just actually what they've been doing for a long time . But now we're shouting about it , now we're learning about it and now we're getting excited about it , and I think that , as the UK and continues to grow , its enthusiasm for it and and this continues to spread and it becomes you know , it's becoming cooler , like you say , your Kardashians and your young people and you know all those those kids . They're doing it because they want to and they enjoy it and they're proud to talk about it , unlike when you and I were going to the pub , it wasn't cool to say I'm not drinking .

Speaker 2 52:53

It wasn't , you know , it'd be like what's wrong with you ?

Speaker 1 52:56

That's the thing is someone now it's some of the biggest A-list celebs globally do not drink alcohol . You know , and you see them , your jlo's , and you know I think brad pitt stopped drinking now as well and and then these people are seen and how good they look . I find it helps when you've got hundreds of millions in the bank , but they look amazing and and it's cool to be seen not to drink and have non-alcoholic versions , and so that is adding that fuel . And I think it's easy for self-discovery these days and find these things out , because the thing that really grinds me is our government and you know , in my naive years I thought our government was there to protect us and look out for its population . They don't give a hoot , they don't give a shit about us , they seriously don't . So the bravest government in the western world was canada and coming up this january , two years ago this january , they were the first one who said the safe level of alcohol consumption per week for its population . This was , this was their health service recommending to their population was zero and alcohol sales in canada dived . I think it's from next year .

Speaker 1 54:13

Ireland is the first country that's going to force alcohol products to have a warning sticker or a label similar to cigarettes on alcohol products as well . That's coming out in ireland . So you're , the governments and health services know this , and this is crooked . It's getting it's tax , it's all about tax and it's the tax they get from alcohol duty . Um , and you know , I think research has shown a moderate drinker will reduce their lifespan by about 15 years , and there's a certain person I know he spoke to the health minister about this . The problem is , though , people live longer . Our pension liabilities go up . So , while you're useful to the government into your 60s , 65 , you paid all your taxes that's fine then you know , the sooner you die off , the better for the better for the country .

Speaker 1 55:12

That's their view , so they , they don't give two hoots , really . Yeah , and and it's so good the information is out there and people make that self-discovery themselves there's .

Speaker 2 55:24

There's a lot that the government need to do . I mean just in the most basic terms , to help people find and understand these drinks . I mean , laura Willoughby at Club Soda is always campaigning about making sure that labelling is a lot clearer . You talk about the labelling in Ireland . I find that one of the biggest questions I get from people is you know what's the difference ? You mentioned it briefly in the beginning . You know , I find that one of the biggest questions that I get from people is you know what's the difference ? You mentioned it briefly in the beginning . You know , alcohol free , 0% , 0.5% ? Nobody knows and everyone's confused and the danger is that we end up confusing people out of the market because they think oh , you know , it's got this percentage , but somebody told me that was more than a banana or less than a banana , and someone else . And so people are just confused and we need clarity .

Speaker 1 56:08

And she does a great job . She bangs this drum all the time and I take my hat off to her . She's phenomenal at that . And it is confusing , we know . I read through all the messages that we get through our social channels and people like , well , you've got 0.5 in and you have to . You have to say well , a glass of orange juice has over 0.5 .

Speaker 1 56:27

Some sourdough breads have 2% ABV because of the fermentation that goes on in them . You know , at 0.5 , you can't drink enough , you can't consume enough glasses of orange juice . It's going to make you drunk . It doesn't work like that . You know , and again , that it's that education piece . Even water has got an abv level of me . It's minute , it's tiny , but it's got a small level in there . So it is a . It is a confusing , confusing topic and and unfortunately it's so led by the media and marketing . You know , I sit now at christmas and watching all the tvs and it's glamorized . Alcohol is glamorized , you know , and I can remember because of my age . I can remember back when cigarettes were and this time of year the Hamlet cigars and all of this .

Speaker 2 57:14

Yes , those adverts , yes , yeah .

Speaker 1 57:15

I was still seeing alcohol adverts . But fine , and this is again . You're getting me started now the government . It's like ultra-processed foods and it's shocking . Know , in this day and age we've advanced so far and , and it's shocking , in the last 40 years , you know , cancer in young people has skyrocketed , absolutely skyrocketed , and they reckon that's down to the shit , bloody crap that they're eating ultra processed foods and a lot of them , where it was the lad and ladette culture , alcohol consumption , and that those impacts happen in your body , happen in your life .

Speaker 1 57:51

And but you know , the on the positive side , it's good that so many more people are considering I think the two biggest drivers in the non-out is um , help your health , and the other driver is active lifestyles . They're the two biggest levers for people who are sort of turning away from alcohol . But I feel , for the industry , hospitality a lot of them are doing well and a lot of places now you can go to and they have a compelling alternative to alcohol . There's a lot that just sort of play lip service and that's really disappointing . You know , I've gone to football games and all your friends are drinking beer , arsenal , and you can have a coke or a coffee . That's it as your alternative . So it was great to see athletic brewing have signed a deal with arsenal yeah , and I've been for a while so I don't know whether that's now available .

Speaker 1 58:48

So it's those hospitality . You know operators the sooner , the more of them wake up to the opportunity that people aren't drinking and give a compelling alternative . You know you look at the success of something like Pret a Manger . You know they've got healthy salad bowls and look how far that's grown . Health and wellbeing is a big thing for a lot of people . You know they're huge . They're going global now because of the healthy options that they can offer people . Health and wellbeing sells , you know people look for healthy alternatives and the more hospitality venues that actually see that opportunity , I think that you know they're the ones who are going to thrive really .

Speaker 2 59:32

Absolutely , chris you're . You speak with such eloquence and such passion about the whole sector and all these things that clearly drive you and OnBeer forward . Thank you so much . It's been an absolute pleasure to sit with you and to get to know more about your journey . You're one of the nicest chaps in this space that I've had the pleasure to meet and I'm really excited for what's next to come from OnBeer , and I'll make sure that everyone knows where to go and find you . In the show notes There'll be links to everything Chris has talked about .

Speaker 1 1:00:05

Thank you , my dear . It's been a lovely . I can't believe an hour's gone by . It's been wonderful . The chat will go . Thank you so much . This has been a brilliant talk .