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Speaker 1 1:12

I think those kinds of just introducing those kinds of mechanisms for people to still be social , but not like , okay , there's one other person and I'm going to talk to them and I'm completely stone cold , sober and like this is really awkward and I don't know what to say , but kind of give them something to do and sort of like have a side conversation , like that actually works extremely well . They made me really happy to see that .

Speaker 2 1:35

Before we get started , just a really quick question . Have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom ? Forward slash free gifts ? Well you should . Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast , bringing you the people , places and brands leading the low , no and light alcohol revolution . This week I'm very happy to be in conversation with the wonderful Sam Bale . Sam is the founder and tastemaker of Third Place , which is a fantastic pop-up in New York City . She has lived and worked in many places and has her finger on the pulse with the low no drinks industry . So I'm very excited to bend her ear , find out a bit about her story , what she's excited about in the space when it comes to low and no drinks , and also how the whole pop-up non-alcoholic bar scene came about , because that sounds like it probably was a bit of a challenge to begin with . So we'll jump into that . But first of all , sam , welcome and thank you for joining me .

Speaker 1 2:41

Hi Denise , Thank you so much for having me . Thanks for the nice intro . That's really fun .

Speaker 2 2:45

Oh , you're very , very welcome . I mean , it's all you . I'm just telling people what you've been doing , so you know . So it does sound really fascinating . Now , obviously , I am based in London and I haven't been to New York for quite some time , so unfortunately I've not had the pleasure of going to any of your events myself . But I do know quite a few people on your side of the pond and they speak so very , very highly of all the things that you do , um , so I'd love to know what the journey was , sam . So start where you want to start , but how did you get to where you are with these bars at the moment ?

Speaker 1 3:16

Yeah , I mean the journey is very , very long . I'm going to try and keep it short , but basically

Sam's story

Speaker 1 3:24

I am from Germany originally and , as you might know , the legal age for drinking in Germany is 16 . So I was allowed to have beer and wine go to the pub when I was 16 . So I was always , you know , a drinker , an enthusiastic drinker . That continued throughout college and then I was actually in grad school in Manchester in England for five years , was a regular at the local pub , obviously , and kind of took that also to New York City .

Speaker 1 3:52

In New York City , I started working for a startup with like a little bit of a work hard , play hard kind of culture . Really , what do you imagine ? Like we had a kegerator in your office , you know , and any meeting after 5 PM was a beer meeting . And , um , yeah , after you know , 20 years of basically drinking consistently , I always said it's it wasn't a big problem for me , necessarily , but it definitely did cause me some problems . You know all the , the hangovers and the drunk arguments and like the , the stupid stuff you do when you , when you drink . Um , I kind of uh realized that I was , especially after two years of covid and sort of early mid 2022 , I realized I was just constantly going out and drinking just to be around people and the drinking really wasn't fun anymore . It just felt like it almost felt like a chore . I was just going to a bar and at some point you know , it was Monday night I was on my second or third tequila soda and I'm like I don't want this drink . I want to be around people but the drinking is just sort of like grinding me down at this point .

Speaker 1 4:59

So I had the idea of actually starting an alcohol-free bar , like a brick and mortar , full-on , just bar . That felt like a regular bar , just without alcohol , because I realized there's none of those kinds of spaces out there that are open laid . We can just hang out . You know , you maybe know the bartender , you know the regulars and , um , you don't have to necessarily engage in an activity . You don't have to run or climb or talk about books or knit or whatever it is that you do in all these clubs , right ? Um and uh , I just wanted to have a place that felt like a bar , so I started . I had the idea of starting Third Place Bar , hence the name , sort of for the you know the bar in there .

Speaker 1 5:45

And just because I didn't want to necessarily dive right in and pay rent in New York City we talked about , like , the issue of rent and costs in New York City issue of rent and costs in New York City I started hosting pop-up events just to kind of test the waters , understand the hospitality industry , understand the world of low and no drinks . I also understand my potential customers , understand sobriety and I kind of just get stuck with the pop-up events because I realized they give me a lot of flexibility . I can do different things . I don't have to worry about covering running costs and rent . I don't have to worry about making , you know , $5,000 plus a month just to keep the lights on and that's just a rent . Like there's infinitely more stuff you'd have to consider .

Speaker 1 6:36

So , yeah , I've been doing that since late 2022 , kind of started my first series of regular pop-ups and , uh dry January 2023 . So I've just had my official two year anniversary and yeah , I've just been hosting lots of different types of fun events . I've done trivia nights . I've done non-alcoholic cocktail mixology classes . I did a non-alcoholic wine tasting for Valentine's Day last year . I've done movie nights . I'm hosting a wellness and mental health kind of fireside chat in a few weeks . So pretty much anything that I would say people would do to go out to have fun , to connect with other people , and there's just no alcohol , there's just non-alcoholic drinks instead . And that's kind of the idea of Third Place Bar is really providing that kind of third space where people can connect and they can socialize just without alcohol .

Speaker 2 7:34

First of all , I think that sounds wonderful and I like that you came at it with the approach of you know you don't have to , like you said , go rock climbing . You don't have to knit , you don't have to talk about books , you know you could just go and hang out . Because you know , when you go to the pub as you will well know , spending five years in Manchester you know you don't go there necessarily to go and do an activity . You go there to spend some time with your friends and , yes , the goal for many people is to go and , you know , drink loads of booze . But you're

Drinking for the sake of it

Speaker 2 8:02

so right . You said something that really hit with me , which was that you were drinking your you know tequila and soda and just like , do I really want another one ? And it's that feeling of drinking just for the sake of it . That was one of the things that got me . I was like holding a drink in my hand , I was like I don't actually want this , like what's the point ?

Speaker 1 8:18

Yeah , and you have that a lot right . Like think of just like , going to the pub and you're on your whatever third , fourth beer . At some point , like very often like , even if you're having a good time , you're like , oh , I don't want to drink anymore , but I still want to stay in the space . So I feel like I should be drinking or I should have like buy something , right . And I think there's a bigger conversation to be had about

Late night alcohol-free spaces

Speaker 1 8:43

just um , uh , you know , alcohol-free , yeah , third spaces are alcohol-free spaces that are open late in general . I actually talked about that with a friend um just a few days ago where he said , yeah , is it weird Because we have sober bars in New York City ?

Speaker 1 8:57

Now we have a couple of alcohol free bars ? And he said , would it be really weird if I had a drink and then went to a sober bar ? And I said at first I was like , yeah , that's kind of weird . And then I realized , hang on , a lot of times when you go out and you go to a pub , you go to a bar or maybe even a restaurant and you have a couple of drinks , you want to stay out , right , you want to , you don't want to go home yet and you don't , you don't want to just be home alone or whatever it is , but you don't necessarily want to keep drinking .

Speaker 1 9:25

So I said actually , if you've had a couple drinks and then you go to a sober bar , to an alcohol-free bar , and have , you know , non-alcoholic drinks because it's just a lot easier to pick non-alcoholic drinks if there's just no alcohol at all and usually the selection is a lot better , right , like that's actually really great .

Speaker 1 9:44

Like I think I feel like that's something that we don't even talk about , that I mean we do , with like the whole thing about zebra striping and stuff , but like even just the benefit of alcohol-free free spaces for people who may have even had a drink or two that same night and then want to be in an alcohol free space so they don't feel like they should continue drinking and it just makes it a lot easier to not consume alcohol . So I think there's like so much more to explore and so much more to to kind of build when it comes to alcohol free um , you know , yeah , bars , pubs , late night cafes , late night coffee shops and stuff , even for people who may have had a drink or a few that night um , just to have those spaces to be with people I think you're

What does the term 'Third Space' mean?

Speaker 1 10:33

absolutely right and and one of the things I want to talk to you about was that whole third space moniker .

Speaker 2 10:40

So you've pretty much touched on it , but it was a term that or is a term rather that I hadn't come across before I started sort of immersing myself in this world , so I should imagine that there are there I'm not that special , so there must be other people that think the same as me who not heard the term before . What does the term third space mean to you when you're talking to people about ? How do you describe it ?

Speaker 1 11:02

yeah , I didn't . I'm not that educated , I didn't know that . I mean my focus is on computer science . Sociology is not necessarily my strength and my my focus in my education , so I also didn't hear the term until I kind of started doing research into . You know what would then become third place bar ? My initial uh name for the bar was why not bar or why not cafe ? Okay , like it's alcohol free , why not ? Yeah , yeah , right , um , so the idea of a third space , it's the .

Speaker 1 11:36

The term was coined by sociologist ray ray oldenburg in the 1980s so actually like fairly recent , I guess and he basically said that , um , most people have several spaces in their lives where they have social connections . Usually your first space is your home , your second space is work or school , and then your third space is any space outside of home or work where you have other social connections . And , um the he set , the hallmarks of the third space is it's accessible . You don't necessarily need to have a membership or pay anything , um , in order to access the space . He didn't say it has to be free , it could be a commercial space . So the name of the book is actually I always butcher . It's like cafes , sal cafes , salons , restaurants and bars , something like that . So he explicitly lists commercial spaces as third spaces . But he basically said the idea is , and they're fairly accessible , you don't have to , like , pay a membership or anything in order to get there .

Speaker 1 12:34

They , they have regulars . That's actually one of the biggest hallmark of the third space . They have people who are there on a regular basis , who you kind of you know , you recognize , and it forms a form of community . It forms some kind of community , right , the people at your local pub . You know them , you walk in , you know the bartender , uh , you know the regulars , and that is kind of a third space . I think one of the best examples , funny enough , is the banshees of inversion . I think the movie with colin farrell that came out a couple years ago that's set on like a tiny island off of the coast of Ireland and everything important in a movie basically happens at the local pub .

Speaker 1 13:19

Everyone always goes to a local pub to see like , is that guy here ? Is that guy here ? They talk to the bartender , the bartender or landlord of the pub . He has all the information , like he knows everything that's going on , and that's kind of sort of the , the you know the , the idea of the , the public house , um , which is where the term pub comes from , which is literally just a space where people would come together . And , yeah , that's the idea of a third space and and , like I said , I think we , we are definitely , you know , starting to see a decline in third spaces , I would say especially free third spaces . If you think about it , the only true free third space that is indoors , it's not just like a park . Uh , our libraries , libraries are the only true third spaces that are that are not commercial , where you can literally just walk in and sit there and no one expects you to um , buy anything but um , uh , but in terms of you know , anything that's open late , there's it's bars , it's pubs , right , yeah yeah , and you're completely right .

Speaker 2 14:25

You know , I mean I'm sure you remember , um , when you were here . You know we have our soap operas . You have soap operas in the States as well . You know we have big shows here , like Coronation Street or EastEnders , or you know they all centre around a pub . That is where everything happens , and then there might also be a cafe , and those are the two places where all the things are just like you were saying in that movie .

Speaker 2 14:46

And I think , now that we've I think it's accepted . Now you know the world has come to recognise that generally we are drinking less , it's accepted . Now you know the world has come to recognize that generally we are drinking less and that particularly the younger generation , who are going to be the older generation , are looking for spaces where they can do things that don't revolve around drinking . It now becomes essential that these third spaces actually grow and progress to suit the needs of the people , because without that we will be left with dwindling pubs and dwindling bars , and if they can't adapt and they can't recognize that , there is opportunity elsewhere . And I think it's difficult , isn't it ? Because you know people are so used to just going to the pub or just going to the bar , that they find it hard to accept that things need to look a little bit different and that they , they need to change to facilitate that things need to look a little bit different and that they , they need to change to facilitate what it is that people actually want .

Speaker 1 15:37

Yeah , and it is . It is different , it is difficult . So one of the reasons why I haven't done the non-alcoholic bar thing yet is because

Why a pop-up and not a permanent bar?

Speaker 1 15:47

the concept of an alcohol-free bar is really . It's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people , even people who don't drink and say like why would I go to a bar if I don't drink ?

Speaker 1 15:59

So , as much as I think pubs need to adapt to people who don't drink or drink less , I think once you're sort of maybe in a group of friends where no one drinks , they're also not going to go to a pub . I think the pub still exists because there are still enough people who drink , and friend groups or partners , whatever husband , wife and all that co-workers there's always going to be some people who do drink . So because it's a mixed group , having non-alcoholic options or low and no options at pubs is super helpful because that caters to everyone . But as soon as people decide to just not drink at all , I I feel like at least like in conversations I've had there is a barrier to going to a bar or a pub if no one drinks , because it's like what's the point ?

Late night tea houses

Speaker 1 16:48

Um , so actually last night I was at a late night tea house coffee shop there's a couple of those in New York City called Kawa House and it was packed . It was 930 on a Friday , on a Monday night , and it was hard to find a seat . I got like one seat like a high top by the windows , but the place was bumping . I mean , granted , it's like in a very , very popular and like busy neighborhood , williamsburg . It's on the main street in Williamsburg , really close to the subway , so it's in like a prime location too , but to me that just shows that people are looking for something that's a late night you know space that isn't necessarily a bar and also doesn't necessarily pretend to be a bar by being an alcohol-free bar .

Speaker 1 17:41

But if you remove the association with like bar drinking , people want to go to late night spaces like . They want to go out and be with people , even just to like to study or maybe get away from your roommates . You know new york city , everyone has roommates . Because we can't afford to rent our own apartments or to go on a date or go and catch up with friends right there . There's so many reasons why you might want to be out of the house at nine o'clock on a on a monday night . And , yeah , you don't necessarily want to be at a bar or anything that even resembles a bar , because it's like why would I be there if I don't drink ?

Speaker 2 18:19

but it feels a little silly , um .

Speaker 1 18:22

So yeah , I'm a firm believer actually in , uh , the late night coffee shops and late night tea houses , and I feel like that's going to have a big renaissance over the next few years , at least here in New York City . That's my bet .

Speaker 2 18:37

Yeah , I mean , we don't have a lot in the UK of that type . You know we've got a couple of . There's a bar in some major cities . Every major city's got like one bar or something . You know that . You know we've got that Club Soda in London and got hinterland and and these places are are trying and they're coming up .

Speaker 2 18:56

But I think it's so true what you say about wanting a space

Adult spaces

Speaker 2 19:00

to get away but still have an adult time .

Speaker 2 19:03

You know , I've got two small kids and I want to go out and I want to meet my friends and I love my kids dearly , but I want to get away from them sometimes and go and hang out with other adults and maybe friends who I've had for a long time or we used to party together . But the idea of going into a bar that's really loud and and I can't find a seat and there are drunk people spilling their drinks on me , you know , I want to go somewhere where I can still have that sort of the right vibe in the right environment , but in a much more comfortable space , where I know that it's going to be full of like-minded adults and and for those times when I am with a group of friends who do want to drink alcohol . I've got no issue in going into a bar , particularly because I'm not coming from a recovery perspective , so it's fine for me . But you know , think about those people who are in a position where they just don't want to be around alcohol and drinkers .

Speaker 2 19:49

So let's circle back a bit more to you in particular and what you've been doing . So tell me

Third Place Bar events

Speaker 2 19:56

a little bit about the events that you've been putting on , because I was spying on your LinkedIn and such and having to look through your sort of back catalogue of what you've been up to , and you really do quite a range of different types of events . So tell me a little bit about those .

Speaker 1 20:11

Yeah , initially third place bar started out really just as a pop-up bar . So I would take over a coffee shop on a Friday night after five o'clock , from five to 10 , and then just open it up and run it as a bar and just have non-alcoholic drinks there . I had a bartender , you know . I played music , I dimmed the lights and it was really funny because I thought like this is exactly what I want and this is exactly what everyone else wants , and people didn't really know what to do with themselves there . It was so funny because it's like so it's like a bar , so you just sit here , so as soon as you like , take the alcohol out of it . It's kind of like okay , what are we doing here ? And um , so I kind of switched a little bit more to like an activity model , which is funny because I literally just said like I don't want to necessarily want to have people , uh , do activities , but it turns out for alcohol-free spaces funny enough , like a lot of times , especially people who

Going alone to events

Speaker 1 21:12

come by themselves . Like having some kind of activity is , you know , just makes for a much better experience .

Speaker 1 21:20

And a lot of the people who come to my events do come by themselves . I'd say like 60 , 70% probably come alone Because sometimes they're the only person in their group of friends who doesn't drink or drinks less and wants to . You know , just experience something else and that people who come by themselves would find non-threatening , not like intimidating , but also at the same time fun and engaging and helps them make a connection . So I started doing trivia nights . The trivia nights are always really fun and for that I would like pair people up with other teams . Like I said , I did movie nights , I did cocktail classes teams , I did , like I said , I did movie nights , I did cocktail classes .

Speaker 1 22:17

Sometimes I do just social mixers , but they always have some kind of um , you know , icebreaker component or some sort of activity around it and um , yeah , it's just just something to to get people engaged and really make for a for a better experience . Um , just to kind of acknowledge that for a lot of people it is weird and awkward and maybe a little intimidating to go to an alcohol-free event by themselves I I hear that a lot from people I've spoken to who run alcohol-free events .

Speaker 2 23:17

So there's a , for example , there's a clubbing event that happens here in london , um , and the the guys that run that . They're doing really well and people love coming . But they found that lots of people were coming by themselves Because , just as you say , a lot of people might be the only person in their group that's decided to make this go on this journey to drinking less , and so they started introducing like so the club . It's a daytime clubbing event , so say , it was on from two till four . At 12 o'clockclock they introduce a two hour sort of mixer . Just get to know each other , come on down . So I can totally see that the , you know , having an activity of some sort that's not too forced , it's not too stressful , it's not too . You know it doesn't demand too much . But it just gives you an excuse to step out of thinking about yourself and going . You know where should I stand ? What , what should I do ? Who should I talk to ? And just go . All right , let me think about this and let my hair down and enjoy myself .

Speaker 1 24:10

Yeah , and it's funny because I'm just learning all these things too as an event organizer . My background is in computer science . I'm not a hospitality person . I bartended . I bartended in Manchester . Many of the UK listeners remember Saki Bar near Whitworth Park . That was me at some point in the middle of the night , bartending at like three in the morning . That was me at some point in the middle of the night bartending at like three in the morning . And uh , yeah , I've bartended . I've worked at a pizza place , but I've never , you know , been and I've hosted .

Speaker 1 24:41

I actually hosted events in your in manchester too . I had a non-profit called manchester girl geeks where we had girl geek tea parties in the afternoon , but that was all . That was all activity based . So those were more almost like workshops where we would teach people to code and we would do soldering classes and we would do show and tells and everything . Yeah , it was phenomenal . This is really great , and so it's just a lot of a lot of like activity based stuff . So the whole sort of starting like forming a community and having like light activities , especially for for adults , that's pretty new to me and I had to figure all that out .

Speaker 1 25:22

One thing that I find really interesting is , um , I introduced the concept of parallel play to to my event

Parallel play for adults

Speaker 1 25:29

. So , um , if you , if you have kids , you might know , you might've heard of that . So kids do something's called parallel play , where they play next to each other , maybe even using like completely different , different toys or different whatever it is , and they might maybe talk to each other and stuff , but they're not necessarily playing together . They're not like building a lego set together or playing barbies together , but they kind of play by themselves but next to each other . And so I introduced that concept by having a nail sticker bar . It's very specific but it's a little just stickers that you can put on your nails and you basically have a bunch of sheets . You go through the sheets , you use little tweezers , you stick the nail stickers on your on your nails . You can use a nail polish if you want . You stick the nail stickers on your nails , you can use a nail polish if you want .

Speaker 1 26:15

And it's a really interesting form of parallel play because people will sit next to each other and maybe be like , oh , this is cute or oh , could you pass me this ? There's a little bit of interaction . But it's also really good for people who are maybe a little overstimulated and just want kind of a timeout , without being antisocial , and sitting on their phone , to do something that they can sort of focus on by themselves but still be around people and still have a little bit of a chat going on . And it was actually really beautiful for me to see .

Speaker 1 26:45

At the first time I did it at an event I put it on like a big round table , put the nail stickers there , and at some point I came over and there were like four people sitting there kind of doing their own thing , but I could hear them chatting with each other without being like full frontal , one on one conversation , right . And I think those kinds of just introducing those kinds of mechanisms for people to still be social but not like , okay , there's one other person and I'm going to talk to them and I'm completely stone cold , sober and like this is really awkward and I don't know what to say , but kind of give them something to do and sort of like have a side conversation , like it actually works extremely well . They made me really happy to see that and , and you know the the vibes were vibing there like people seemed pretty , pretty happy with that .

Speaker 2 27:31

It was really cute yeah , that's genius , that's because you know what that does . That skips out small talk and that's it . Small talk , I think , actually kills conversations . You know , as soon as you start talking about the weather or you know , you know where are you from and just okay , this is , the conversation isn't going anywhere . But if you've already got something else that you can jump into and you're like , okay , if I want to talk a bit more , I can do , but if , but , if I'm not , I can carry on what I'm doing . And I love that because I've discovered I'm quite an introvert . As I've aged and as I've reduced my alcohol , I've realized that I'm quite an introvert .

Speaker 1 27:59

So I would love something like that where I could just do my thing and then if I feel like branching out , you know , then that opportunity is there but you're not forced to Exactly . Yeah , and it really reminds me of just like very almost like traditional settings , like in a home or other communities , where , for example , like you're making something , you're crafting something and you're sort of having a conversation , but it's not full on just sitting and having conversation and , again , like for a lot of people , they come by themselves . Maybe it's the first time going to an event without alcohol . They might be like , you know , not sure what to expect .

Speaker 1 28:52

So kind of helping them ease in and they might discover that they are actually more introverted than they thought when they don't drink , right . So helping them ease into those kinds of kinds of conversations or kinds of situations is actually super important . So , yeah , it's all stuff that I've learned over the last couple of years that I'm really excited every time I try out something new and it works . And yes , to anyone who listens , who comes to Third Place Bar events , like I'm constantly experimenting You're all my guinea pigs and I'm constantly like trying to figure out like better formats for events , that where people really feel like , oh , this was valuable , this was great and I'm taking something away from that .

Speaker 2 29:36

So where are you hosting these events , like , how do you choose where you're going to host a pop-up ? Or are people reaching out to you and saying

Choosing pop-up locations

Speaker 2 29:42

, come and do something in , I've got a gallery space or something ? How does that all come about ?

Speaker 1 29:48

In the beginning . Like I said , I rented out coffee shops , basically after hours which is pretty fun .

Speaker 1 29:55

Um , because you know it's an alcohol-free space . I've had some events at regular bars but they're always really weird because there's always alcohol on the back bar and you're kind of serving non-alcoholic drinks and sort of pretending that there's no alcohol in the room . So , fortunately in new york city we have well , at least until last September , we actually had three alcohol-free bars here in my neighborhood and I just started hosting events there . I hosted events at no More Cafe , hecate , rent Money Lounge , and that was really cool because I basically , like I said in the beginning , I didn't necessarily want to to do the thing and like pay rent in New York City and everything , but by hosting events at those spaces I can bring business to them and I can bring awareness to them and I can , you know , show people that this exists . So it's sort of like a symbiosis , like a mutually beneficial relationship where , to be fair , they're taking on the risk and the rent and everything and I bring in people for the events and for the parties , which is really cool . And then also , yeah , like I have sometimes , I have other people reach out with spaces .

Speaker 1 31:05

I am a member of a community space slash co-working space . It's called Fabric . There was actually a Fabric location in London too . Unfortunately they closed last year , but they allow me to host events there too and I don't have to pay , which is really the biggest thing , because usually if I have to pay a venue rental , I can barely , I can just about break even , especially again in New York City . It's so expensive .

Speaker 1 31:32

So , um , yeah , I got lucky , but I but I am definitely gravitating towards finding alcohol-free spaces , because it just , you know , again , it takes alcohol out of the equation and it makes it not weird for people and it makes it a lot friendlier for people who are in recovery . Do not have them come to a bar where there's alcohol on the shelves okay , makes perfect sense .

Speaker 2 31:55

So what are ? So people are coming to these events . There are some parallel play , your genius , uh , discovery , um , you know you've got all

Drinks at Third Place events

Speaker 2 32:04

sorts of different sorts of things going on , but this podcast is all about the drinks . So tell me what are people drinking when they're coming to your event . You know what are they finding . Uh , is it sort of you know your RTDs , you're ready to go ? Are you making cocktails ? Because obviously you've got a quite a skilled knowledge in cocktail making and stuff . So tell me what people are drinking when they come along to one of the third place events it's usually a mix , depending on the event .

Speaker 1 32:30

So I have some events where , for example , at fabric , at the um co-working space that I'm at , it feels like a loft , you know , it's like it's just like big loft to try becca with like a few tables and couches and stuff , and for events there , for all the social mixers , I usually just have ready to drinks . I have beer , sparkling wine , um , you know , cups for people to maybe serve themselves and uh , uh and ready to drink cocktails , because it feels a little bit like a house party , like a loft party . So having someone just like grab a can or pour themselves a drink is sort of a lot , you know , it sort of matches the vibe . Um , and then at other other events , you know , when I hosted at hekata , for example , no more cafe , the soba bars , they have a full-on uh cocktail menu which is absolutely phenomenal . They have really really great , huge selections of non-alcoholic drinks . The back bar at hekata is just a dream . It looks like . It looks like the back bar like club soda and stuff , right , it's , it's really , really cool . And then , um , yeah , and then sometimes I do events , like I said , add regular bars , um , where we usually have like a specials menu with like three , four , five , uh , non-alcoholic cocktails too and and I always try and mix it up I always try and do a nice mix of , you know , the , the citrus forward , slightly fruity cocktails maybe .

Speaker 1 33:56

I always try to have at least one quote-unquote spirit forward drink on the menu

Spirit-forward, alcohol-free cocktails

Speaker 1 34:00

because I feel like most people don't get that at other bars , like if you , if you look at sort of the landscape of non-alcoholic cocktails even bars , pubs that have decent non-alcoholic cocktails , there's two things you usually find a . They usually and I'm not talking about like mocktails and stuff that are just juice , but even the ones that use non-alcoholic spirits , they usually juice or fruit based , um , or citrus based , and they're usually high ball . So they usually carbonate it . Okay because , as we know , carbonation gives a mouthfeel , because , as we know , you know , citrus , um and juice , like it gives texture and it gives flavor and everything .

Speaker 1 34:42

But the spirit forward drinks . For you know , regular drinkers who like their manhattans , their negronis , their old-fashioned super popular drinks , maybe aini , but I don't think we're there yet with a non-alcoholic martini , but I think at least , like the Negronis and non-alcoholic Negronis are pretty , pretty solid at this point I always try and have like a quote unquote , spirit forward drink on the menu in order to show people that it is possible to have a stiff drink . That's not just , you know , citrus and ginger beer and , um , whatever . Shaking up again , even with non-alcoholic spirits .

Speaker 2 35:19

I think there's a little bit of a tendency to go citrusy or fruity just because it's , it's easy yeah , I think spirits are uh an interesting one in the non-alcoholic space because , you know , a spirit is usually used in a cocktail .

Speaker 2 35:36

You know , people are very rarely drinking spirit straight up , even if you're drinking full strength alcohol . So they , you know , have that , um , that addition of that , that mixer , whether it be something sweet or something citrusy or something sour , um , but there's still that balance , that that that we need to bring , and I think that if someone goes from drinking a full strength alcoholic spirit drink and then expecting the non-alcoholic one to taste exactly the same , you know , obviously they're going to taste different . You know , 40% of that drink is different to what it was beforehand . So I think it's really important that you do that and you do have these spirit forward drinks , amazing cocktails on there , you know , that are put together by people who know what they're doing and can really get the best out of these , these drinks , cause there are some amazing , uh concoctions and recipes that can be made out there . Um , but it does take a little bit of time , right With spirits , to get your head around how to use them best in a , in a non-alcohol space .

Speaker 1 36:31

Definitely yeah . And again , like if you're shaking something up with citrus , grapefruit , lemon , lime , whatever it is like that side is like I feel like it's almost hard to make a bad drink with that , especially if you stick to like quote unquote classic recipes , like making a non-alcoholic margarita at this point is pretty straightforward , right , if you even if you don't really know what you're doing like it's hard to get that wrong . It's just going to probably going to taste good if it's balanced , if you follow the instructions . For the spirit forward drinks in particular , I think the texture is really difficult . Most of the time they're going to taste pretty decent . Let's say you just had Pathfinder launch in the UK , I think . So let's say you have a Pathfinder , some non-alcoholic whiskey , for example , and a non-alcoholic vermouth or a non-alcoholic aperitif . Those will taste good , but they will be a little watery still , right ? So now the question is okay , how can I make this drink ? How can I give it texture ? How can I give it weight and body ? And that's where you have to start experimenting with things like gum syrup , for example , or the I don't know if you saw this like a while ago . The whole like stirring your drink over sushi rice to give a texture Right and like it's not it's not too crazy Like it actually starch starch like adds viscosity Right , starch starch makes like adds viscosity right .

Speaker 1 37:56

So there's , there's just a lot of techniques . So we're also like not diluting it too much . So my preference , for example , for especially for spirit forward drinks , is to batch the drink without ice , put it in the fridge , cool it down and then just serve it over a large ice cube , because that way you're not stirring it to cool it down , but you have it already chilled and then you pour it over ice . So you're basically not diluting it at all , because all the ingredients in a non-alcoholic spirit or in a non-alcoholic spirit forward drink , they are , they don't really need dilution . I would say like dilution is is our enemy for non-alcoholic drinks . Um , so yeah , there's just like a few techniques to kind of consider to especially for the spirit forward drinks , to make a drink that also has like a good mouthfeel . I feel like with taste , honestly like we can make tasty things at this point . Absolutely , absolutely .

Speaker 2 38:51

And there are some great people in our space who are working really hard to help us create . You know , they're experimenting with cocktails or

Stir it with sushi rice!

Speaker 2 38:58

they're experimenting with ingredients . They're putting things together and sharing what they know . You know , the sushi rice thing that you mentioned I did see that . Was that a discovery of Derek Brown ? Who came up with that ? I ?

Speaker 1 39:13

think the sushi rice thing was either Punch or Imbibe one of like the big sort of industry publications , and it was like you need to stir your Negroni over sushi rice and then Derek , I think , went and actually tried it out with a non-al drink . Ok , so yes , it was definitely Derek definitely tried it out , but I think it originally came from one of the like spirit publications .

Speaker 2 39:37

I think it originally came from one of the like spirit publications . For anyone who may not know

Mindful Drinking Fest

Speaker 2 39:44

so , derek Brown is an award winning cocktail bartender , turned non-alcoholic pioneer , who is doing some amazing stuff , and actually he's part of something that you were part of earlier on , a couple months ago as well , right , which is the Mindful Drinking Fest .

Speaker 1 39:54

Mindful Drinking Fest yeah , that was actually less than a month ago . That was in january too . Yeah , just to make dry january even busier for all of us . Yeah , I went to mindful drinking fest in dc . It's a huge expo festival , um anything around mindful drinking um . That's both aimed a little bit at industry and the general public and it's a really fun . I call it like a big school reunion for non-alcoholic industry sober Coachella , whatever you want to call it . It's really fun .

Speaker 2 40:29

It sounds fantastic . I'm hoping to be able to make it there one day . There's so many people that I know that go and do great stuff there and either just sort of speak or they go learn and they go enjoy and it does look like a bit of a school reunion every time . I've seen pictures that that various people that I know have gone there and they post and they're just everyone's just hanging out and it's amazing because it does look exactly like you would expect any sort of festival or gathering of people in the same industry around drinks to be there . Everyone's got their arms around each other , everyone's cheersing , having a great time .

Speaker 2 41:00

So much hugging so much hugging , but then everyone wakes up hangover free in the morning .

Speaker 1 41:05

I mean , it just looks perfect yeah , it's , it's actually my dream honestly . Um , you know , I , like I said I worked in . My background is computer science . I worked in tech for 10 years and usually a lot of like industry conferences are always like booze , fast , right , and it's almost like expected . Like you have the expo day and then at night you go out and party and then you get up at eight o'clock in the morning and go back to like all the talks and the conferences and it's , it's a nightmare and I don't know who thought that was a good idea .

Speaker 1 41:36

And the thing I really appreciate about something like Mindful Drinking Fest is that you know you still stay out late but you don't drink and that's perfectly . It's not just accepted but it's , you know , enabled , I guess , to not drink and I think that's wonderful , like that's honestly like like the only kind of industry conference that I want to attend is where I don't have to . I know , mingle at 10 , 30 with very drunk people slurring and whatever , it is right , but but like everyone's sober , people do get silly . There's karaoke , there's a dance party , you know it gets it has , it gets pretty wild and it gets really fun . But also everyone is sober and has their excuse me like shit together and then you wake up the next morning and everything . Everyone feels great and I love that . I think you know , even just from a professional perspective , from like a work perspective , it makes so much more sense than if everyone gets just drunk .

Speaker 2 42:39

Absolutely . I'm going to bring you back around to third place because it sounds fantastic and I want people who are listening or watching to know where they can go and find

Reach out to Sam

Speaker 2 42:49

out a bit more about the pop-ups and about you , because I know that you not only put on the pop-ups , but you do sort of cocktail masterclasses . You do some corporate work as well . So tell me , who is that for ? Who would really benefit from getting in contact with you and how do they get in contact with you ? Sam ?

Speaker 1 43:10

Yeah , so for any of the events that I host for the general public usually just my Instagram there's always a pin post . There's always a pin post , there's always a story highlight , there's always the link in bio with all my upcoming events at Third Place Bar NYC . Just one word Third Place Bar NYC , the third is spelled out T-H-I-R-D . And then for any of the corporate events I also host , cocktail mixology classes and tasting . So I'll call for beverage tasting , wine tasting , beer tasting , spirit or all of it together , mixed tastings for corporate clients as like team building activities For example . I did a ton of those in January . It was lovely .

Speaker 1 43:50

I was at a lot of financial industry and law firms . They like to , you know , get some alcohol-free alternatives and for that also , I'd say my website has , you know my email address . So thirdplacebarnyc or really just Google for Third Place Bar NYC and you can contact me . And I always love hearing , especially from corporate clients too , because , again , you know , my background is sort of in corporate startups , work hard , play hard and I think bringing a little bit more non-alcoholic and mindful drinking and low and no to sort of corporate environments is always really fun and really beneficial and really eye-opening for a lot of people Bringing a little balance to it all . Yeah , exactly , bring in a little balance , bring in a little bit of like hey look , there's other cool stuff out there .

Speaker 2 44:43

Fantastic . Before I let you go , sam , it's time for my last question , my now infamous because I say so barbecue question .

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 44:51

So I know that in New York your weather patterns are slightly similar to ours , so I'm guessing it's not very warm there at the moment . So cast your mind forward to a nice sunny day and imagine you're off to a barbecue at a friend's house and you're bringing some drinks along for you and your friends to enjoy . I know this might be hard for you because you work with a lot of brands , a lot of products .

Speaker 1 45:17

But give me a couple of drinks that you like to enjoy in the low no space , okay . So , specifically , I'm , I'm , I'm picturing the barbecue right now . I would bring the best day best day . I don't know if they . If it's available in the uk , it's , I think , the second biggest non-alcoholic beer brand after athletic brewing in the us at least they're based in california phenomenal beers .

Speaker 1 45:36

They started out with only three skews um and hazy ipa , west coast ipa and the coach , and they're all phenomenal , they're all excellent . And now they added three more another ipa , uh , and they call it electro lime , which is kind of like a think like a corona with lime okay , um , super delicious . And my favorite , which is kind of like a think like a Corona with lime Okay , super delicious . And my favorite , which is the one I would bring , which I was obsessed with last summer , the Yuzu Ginger Shandy . It is absolutely delicious and I love speaking to people from the UK because everyone knows what a shandy is and in the US sometimes I have to explain . I was like you don't know what a shandy is .

Speaker 1 46:17

Like it's the best thing ever . Um , so the yuzu ginger shandy . It's not super sweet , um , I don't really taste the ginger that much , I mostly just it's a delicious yuzu like citrusy shandy . It's so good . So that one I would definitely bring , and then the other one . I would always just bring a bottle of Pathfinder , so non-alcoholic Amaro , just because it's the one-stop shop for good drinks . You can do shots , you can just pour it over ice , sip it neat , you can serve it just with club soda and an orange twist . There's just so many amazing options , so many things you can do with Pathfinder and honestly , all my friends who do still drink they also love pathfinder . It's just universally beloved , um , so I would definitely bring that to amazing selections .

Speaker 2 47:07

And you're right , you mentioned anyone . Pathfinder have just launched in the uk . In fact , I spoke to uh rish on the show , uh , last week's episode , uh , which was very , very interesting . He , he opened the show by saying that actually he finds that most non-alcoholic drinks are quite boring . Um , which made a very interesting conversation , so it was absolutely fascinating . Um , and this , that beer , best days . Did you say , oh my god , best day , yeah , best date . Ginger and yuzu , yeah there .

Speaker 1 47:35

So good . It's so good Again , like the , the gender is pretty subtle , but like it's just a phenomenal shandy , it's so good . Also funny to hear about is is Risha . Is he based in Manchester ? I think he's actually . I think so .

Speaker 1 47:49

Yeah , I think he's based in Manchester . I think they did a or at least like they did a launch there . So I'm really excited . Next time I visit the UK hopefully in the next two to three months I'm really really hoping that I can cross paths with the Pathfinder guys , because they know how to party . They're the most fun people and I can see them saying that most NA drinks are boring because the Pathfinder the drink itself , just the brand . It's all about fun and I really appreciate them for that . So I'm really excited actually to come to the UK and check out the Pathfinder situation there and hopefully meet their reps there . Yeah , good good good .

Speaker 2 48:28

Well , I will . First of all , I will link to all of your links your LinkedIn , your Instagram and such everything you mentioned in the show notes for anyone who wants to go and check out the fantastic work that Sam is up to . I would like to reach out for anything that might be suitable for them or their teams . I just want to go out for a lovely night out and meet some like-minded people , and I'll also link to that episode with Rish down below so everyone can go and check out his Rieslings . But non-alcohol is boring .

Speaker 2 48:57

But , sam , thank you so much for your time today . I really appreciate you coming on , because it's really lovely to speak to people who are in this industry , but from a different perspective . I speak to a lot of brand founders and it's actually lovely to hear about those drinks then being used in real life situations to help people live a life less intoxicated on their own terms , and I appreciate people like you who have that approach of look . I'm just trying to facilitate these opportunities for people and allowing them , as I say , to live a life less intoxicated . So thank you very much for your time , sam .

Speaker 1 49:31

Thank you so much for having me .