Coming up...

Speaker 1 1:12

We still get asked whether they are magic mushrooms that we're putting in these drinks . And you think , given the fact that I enjoy my life outside of prison , I can assure you there are no magic mushrooms in there .

Speaker 2 1:25

Before we get started , just a really quick question . Have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom ? Forward slash free gifts Well you should . Hi hi Lonono nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Low-No Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the low , no and light alcohol revolution .

Speaker 2 1:48

This week , I'm excited to be in conversation with the lovely Matt Martin , who is the co-founder of Mush , a functional mushroom elixir . It's a nootropic drink that can be served hot , cold or mixed into cocktails , so it is quite a unique tool in this space . Matt and his co-founder , dan who isn't joining us today , but Matt is more than happy to speak on his behalf First met in university a while ago in Leeds not that long ago . They're still quite young . They went on their separate paths but came back together , went on a few different routes , launched different businesses , including hospitality , one which unfortunately was scuppered by the blight that was COVID , but then recognised a gap in the market and have produced a wonderful liquid , which I do have in front of me here today , and it is delicious and tasty , and I'm very excited to find out more about it . Why they chose to go down the functional mushroom route , just what those ingredients do and what plans Mish have in the future for us . So , matt , thank you very much for joining me . How are you today ?

Speaker 1 2:56

Well , thank you very much for having me . I'm excellent , great to see you again and you know , all is well this end Busy start to the year , but ,

2025 predictions

Speaker 1 3:06

yeah , excited to be on your podcast and , yeah , really ready to get cracking with whatever this year has in store for us .

Speaker 2 3:15

Do you know what I've got a feeling about this year ? It feels . This year feels tangible , it feels palpable , like there's a fizz in the air in this industry for this year there's going to be some big things happening .

Speaker 1 3:25

I agree . I mean , I have to say I've been saying that every year since I was about 18 . This is the year . But you know , I agree with you . I think , particularly industry wide it definitely feels that way . It feels like there is a sort of definitely a shift happening . I think there's been a shift happening internally for a few years , but I think that shift has been externalized to the consumer . Now I think sort of consumer trends are starting to catch up with what people within the industry have been thinking for some time .

Speaker 2 3:55

Yeah , I mean , the numbers are there , aren't they ? And I mean , before we go too far on a tangent , because obviously this could , this could be something we we could talk about at length , but the numbers are there , with 15 and a half million people that took part in dry january alone , and , and whilst dry january isn't the be all and end all of the low , no market and industry , it just goes to show the amount of growth and interest that there is in this space and and then that transitions to the drinks that are in this space and people looking for things that can really add something to their life . Not just it's not just about taking away alcohol anymore . It's about adding something into their lives , um , which I think your drinks do fantastically well , and we will get to that , uh , but before we do , I like to start by asking my guest to share a little bit of your own journey and what led you to be where you are today . So start where you want to start , matt . What was the journey that led to you creating Mush ?

Speaker 1 4:47

Well ,

Matt's story

Speaker 1 4:48

I mean , I guess I won't go all the way back to birth because we could be here for some time . My , it was actually my 35th birthday on sunday , so I'm thank you very much , um , but I I think really , I went to university , I studied mechanical engineering , and I think the reason behind that was around this , this love of creating something . You know , I always thought I thought going to university and doing mechanical engineering was going to result in me building cars and planes and whatever it was . And actually it was . It was mostly theoretical maths , um and I . So I didn't love it as much as I thought .

Speaker 1 5:24

But in my fourth year I did , uh , medical engineering , uh , and that was the first time that sort of our practical , practical skills came into play . Um , you know , we're actually designing a robotic arm for neurosurgery , which was so interesting . But I think when all these commercial partners came in um and they were talking to us about the next steps it was sort of jaguar land rover , it was jcb and it was all a lot of it was sort of back of house design I thought that isn't going to be me at all . Um , I want to be , I want to be in the workshop . I want to be me at all . Um , I want to be , I want to be in the workshop , I want to be getting my hands dirty , I want to be making things .

Speaker 1 6:01

So , um , when I , um , when I left university , I sort of saved up a bit of money and I pretty quickly decided that I went on my first ski trip through the university ski trip and I saw loads of people wearing those , um , you know the retro ski suits , you know from the 80s , 80s , I , lots of people wearing those . Um , you know the retro ski suits , you know from the 80s , 80s , I they , lots of people wearing those , and I thought that's cool , but they're all old and they're not waterproof and surely there's a better way to do that . So , um , I flew to china and I found a supplier out there and I redesigned the sort of retro ski suit and then launched a brand called Retro Mountain and the idea was to sort of to bring the fun and the theater around the retro styling into modern tech . And then , through that , I then joined two other guys and we launched a , launched a company called dino ski , which has now been rebranded to rawsome , and it was , it was a ski work . It uh brand for kids , um , which is now an outerwear brand . It was all about adventure and nature and sustainability , which is something that ties into to merch now .

Speaker 1 7:11

Um , then we , um , and that's that's still going , that's that's doing very well , um , and then we , um , dan dan was at octopus . He was at octopus , um , investments and um , we'd always wanted to do something together .

Land Rover events

Speaker 1 7:25

So we thought , okay , well , what can we do in the , in the space that you know , we , we like the event space ? So we thought , okay , well , let's try that . So we , we bought a couple of land rovers and we converted them in one was a dj land , one was a bar Land Rover , and we did sort of boutique events , festivals , weddings , that sort of thing .

Speaker 1 7:43

Of course , as soon as we decided to do that , covid hit . So there were no events , there were no weddings , there was no nothing , and it was a bit of a disaster . So we had to pivot hard at that moment . So we put a coffee machine in the back of one of the Land Rovers and put it in the common nip where my , my mum , lives , and actually it turned out that there was a load of people up there who just didn't really have any access to any anything because it's a where where it is is on the top of the hill . So we were the only option . People . We ended up getting quite a lot of traffic .

Speaker 1 8:16

Um , dan and I were sitting in the back of a Land Rover every morning for , um , we were the only option for people . We ended up getting quite a lot of traffic . Dan and I were sitting in the back of a Land Rover every morning , for we did the weekends to start with , and Dan was still at Octopus at this time and , yeah , we were doing winter mornings . It was minus five , minus six . We were sort of hugging water cool water heaters , not coolers , definitely not just to stay warm .

Working with Asahi

Speaker 1 8:36

But there was a cricket club there that wasn't really being used and we thought actually there's potential here . It's been there for 25 years . We thought no one's done anything with it , it's barely being used . Let's renovate it . Let's renovate it , take it over and see what's what . It was based on very little data , knowledge of the area , because I grew up there , but that was about it . So we spoke to the people who were involved in it and just said , look , let us take it over , let us renovate it and see what's what . So , fast forward a couple of years . We managed to do that . It's now a thriving hub in the area .

Speaker 1 9:14

But through that , we , that um , we were being we actually um asahi invested in that business . Um , because they saw the potential of the site and , thank god , we , we got involved with them when we did , because I think , given the downturn in alcohol sales and the the cost of goods going up , their margins are now sort of less than they were . Um , I'll say so , they probably wouldn't have got involved with us in the same way if we'd asked them now . So I think , timing wise , we were quite lucky , um , but interestingly so that that site is very family orientated . You know , we have um , obviously , we have people of all ages come in , but it because of where it is . It sits on a , on a common , with cricket pitches and tennis courts and a playground , and there's there's , you know , families around there all the time . It's a very family focused area . We , we're , we're supplied by Asahi , um and and um and Nectar and , and they've been great , they've been an amazing team to work with , and not just them , but across the board .

Speaker 1 10:21

We were sort of looking

The inspiration for MUUSH

Speaker 1 10:22

at what was available for kids , for adults , for others . On the non-alcoholic side , because , you know , as you touched on and as we've spoken about before , the non-alcoholic space is just on the rise , it's growing and growing and it's not spoken about before . The non-alcohol space is just on the rise , it's growing and growing and it's not just about removing alcohol , it's about introducing some nutritional benefit to the drinks that are on offer . What we were selling were , you know and I hesitate to sort of bad mouth other brands because you know it's not the way we work . Brands because I , you know it's not not the way we work , but there are a lot of , um , fizzy , sugary drinks that were on offer that everybody , you know , household names , the people people would recognize , and really not a lot else .

Speaker 1 11:07

So we started going down this road and , um , we started in the sort of the adult space with the non-alcoholic spirits , um , and realized that , okay , they were non-alcoholic spirits but they didn't provide any nutritional benefit , um , and actually very little information on the bottles as to what's in them at all . Um , so people don't really have full visibility over what they're drinking . They just knew they didn't want alcohol . So we thought , okay , well , there's , there's an opportunity there on the kids side , um , there was again , you know , really , other than water , very little that they can be having that isn't filled with sugar , that isn't unhealthy , that isn't filled with artificial sweeteners .

Speaker 1 12:19

The list goes on in terms of the negative benefits , but , um , or the negative impacts , but , um , we felt that actually there was an opportunity there as well . Um , so really , that that's where it all began and , um , we , we just thought , given our time in that space and our our , we were really sort of trying to find something to do together that was bigger , that we , that we could sort of get behind a real cause and a mission , and we felt that this was perfect for us .

Speaker 2 12:52

I think you , you absolutely hit the net . Well , several nails on on the head there . Um , you know , I , I'm a mum , I've got a five-year-old and a seven-year-old and those nameless brands that that we won't call out . Um , you're , you're absolutely right . It's really hard to find stuff for them that you think okay , yeah , I'm happy for you to drink this as much as you want .

Speaker 2 13:13

What I find fascinating about mush

What makes MUUSH unique

Speaker 2 13:16

is the way that you have embraced both sides of that , though , because we're talking about adult alcohol-free drinks , and you found a way to embrace the flavour profiles and the desires for an adult alternative beverage and a way for that to be introduced to a younger generation as well . So I definitely want to talk a bit more about how you've managed to do that , because I can't think of many brands who are taking this sort of two-pronged approach and doing it well . Pronged approach and doing it well . But let's start with your grown-up approach to the drinks first . So , for those watching on video , you can see behind me I have a lovely selection of mush products here behind me . So in the bottles here we have your three SKUs . Now , what is it that's unique about these drinks ?

Speaker 1 14:08

What is it that they're made with that makes them so special so basically , the way we started was to think about how are people enjoying drinks , where , particularly with our customers that come into our bar and our cafe , we just think , like , what are people having , what are they enjoying , and how are they consuming these things ? And our traffic was really early morning , which was coffees and teas , and then it transforms into a bar in the evening and we thought , can we create a product that sits , one product that sits in both those categories , okay ? So we thought , okay , well , there's been a lot of negative press about , um , uh , tea and tea bags and and the the environmental impact the tea bags have . So we thought , okay , well , herbal teas is an interesting one , and and then the sort of functional parity for lychsocide is also another another um , another area , um , so , yeah , we started with just , we want to be as natural as possible . So we thought , well , free , everybody love , loves fruit . So how do we keep it natural ? How do we keep the sugar contents low ? How does that look ? What can we add in to increase the benefits of those things ? You know there's . There's a lot around , uh , um , in the press at the moment about gastrointestinal issues , bowel cancers on the rise . A lot of that's to do with , um , not enough fiber in people's diet . So we thought , okay , well , we can add fiber and let's do that through inulin , which is from the chicory plant . Um , so we've got inulin . All the fruits and roots are natural . Um , we've got no artificial sweeteners . The sweetness comes from fructose , a natural sugar .

Speaker 1 15:52

And then , one step further , was the mushroom piece . There was a book that I that

Adding functional mushrooms

Speaker 1 15:59

was sent my way , called Entangled Lives , I think , and it was just about all these incredible benefits that functional mushrooms have . And it was just about all these incredible benefits that functional mushrooms have . So we started doing some research into that and thought , actually , you know , when you look at a scale , you've got if in the middle is water , so that is just hydration . There's no sort of nutritional benefit as such , so that is just hydration . On this side , you've got negatives , so it's just sugar and artificial sweeteners and preservatives and acidity regulators and all that . And then and then we thought , ok , well , actually , if we can go beyond just hydration to the positive , what can we add in there to do that ? Obviously there's . There's ingredients like ashwagandha , there's all sorts of things that you can put into drinks . But we thought let's just try and keep it relatively simple , having read that book and done a bit of research into the functional mushroom space . I was quite interested in that , as was dan , and we'd been chatting to a couple of people about the benefits , the , the research , the um , um , sort of that . That space as a whole just growing um and um , yeah , we , we .

Speaker 1 17:04

I think the difficulty we had was the fact that , with the mushroom space , a lot of the mushrooms at the moment sit on the novel foods list . So you know , what we wanted to do was to use a mushroom that had been approved by food standards and that we weren't going to have any issues with . The mushroom that we ended up on , which is our favorite , partly because it sounds cool , is Lion's Mane . You know the fruiting body of Lion's Mane is what we use . So , yeah , I think we wanted to keep it as natural as possible . We wanted to have that versatile use case and we wanted to take the information that we had learned from the market , from consumers , and then combine that into a drink that tasted amazing and obviously flavor has to be part of it . I always think back to sort of 10 years ago , when there was that wheatgrass phase and everybody was drinking shots of wheatgrass .

Speaker 2 17:57

The horrible green sludge .

Speaker 1 17:58

Yeah .

Speaker 2 17:59

Yeah .

Speaker 1 18:00

But it literally tasted like a shot of grass , you know , but it was everywhere and flavor had been ignored and it was all about goodness and I mean , I don't know about you , but I don't see wheatgrass anywhere anymore , I think probably because people realize that , you know , customers , consumers realize that goodness doesn't need to taste that bad . So that was the starting point in terms of in terms of goodness , and then then it got into sort of the tasting phases with our production partners and good friends of ours , um to to end up where we are now .

Speaker 2 18:37

So tell me a little bit more about the uh lion's mane then , because people are loving their functional mushrooms at the moment . Uh , I've actually got a chap coming on the podcast in in a few weeks a fungi consultant okay .

Speaker 2 18:49

Well , he'll know definitely more about it than I do but just in sort of , in layman's terms , the , because I uh was obviously perusing your , your website , yeah , um , in preparation for our chat , and I went to your faq page because I always find faq pages are fascinating , because that's what a brand is saying that these are things that people

Does it taste like mushrooms

Speaker 2 19:10

are asking us all the time . Let's just get that information out there , and one of the top questions on your faq is will it taste like mushrooms ?

Speaker 2 19:19

yeah so do people really ask you if it's going to taste like mushrooms , and does it taste like mushrooms ?

Speaker 1 19:24

yeah , so it's . It's an interesting question . There are other questions that come up which are surprising , particularly given the fact that Mini Mush has been designed for kids . We still get asked whether they are magic mushrooms that we're putting in these drinks .

Speaker 1 19:40

I saw that . Yeah , given the fact that I enjoy my life outside of prison , I can assure you there are no magic mushrooms in there . Very different thing , very different . Yeah , I mean we're not dealing in that space . But yes , I mean , if you were having lion's mane and just water , then it would taste like a mushroom . You know , a lot of these ingredients by themselves are not ideal , but we're putting 0.3 grams of lion's mane into each serving . It doesn't taste like mushrooms . We've obviously crafted the flavors as well so that it's flavor first , well , flavor and health equally first . So no , it doesn't taste like mushrooms .

Speaker 1 20:28

I think there's a lot of people who take functional mushrooms in tincture form , and tincture form is the pure form of functional mushrooms . It's sort of a little prepared put it under your tongue , put it on your tongue whatever and that is not a good tasting liquid . I can tell you from experience that taste the best way to describe it is sort of Marmite water , I would say but is the most unspoiled version of the functional mushroom products in space . I mean , if that's what you want to take and that's how you want to take it , that's absolutely fine . But flavor is not on the list of priorities when it comes into pure tinctures , but no , in the quantities that we're putting them into our drinks . You can't taste them , you're simply getting the benefits of them .

Speaker 2 21:18

And I can attest to that as well , listeners , because I have had the pleasure and the good fortune of tasting the range and I couldn't taste a mushroom inside , and I love mushrooms . So I was looking out for the taste , but you can't taste them . So tell me about the range then , Matt . So I've shown one bottle here and then also in your full size bottles you've got two more on this side . So what are the flavour profiles in the range ?

Speaker 1 21:43

So we've got blood orange and ginger , um , so the one that you have actually has turmeric in it , which we have taken out for now in the next run , purely on a practical issue , because the turmeric was causing issues with the bottling process . It was staining everything in the factory , yellow , um . So we've , we've removed that for now . We will come back to it . But , um , yeah , we've got um in that one . We've got apple , blood orange , um . Lemon honey , um , lion's mane , um , which is really nice .

Speaker 1 22:18

So , um , I'm just looking at the down here , I've just got the tasting notes with me , but the way we describe it if , if , um , if you want to hear is an instant zing from the ginger with a beautifully rounded and smooth aftertaste from the orange and honey , leaving a tingle on the tongue and the back of the throat .

Speaker 1 22:34

The perfect way to jump and start the day . So the idea with that was sort of you know it doesn't have to be drunk in the morning , but I do , I often have one in the morning and it's just a really nice way to sort of inject a bit of energy into that . You know the early hours of the of the day , um , but yeah , the ginger's in there , but you've got the sweetness of the orange . Uh , the honey is not really that noticeable , but it's just there in the background , usually in the aftertaste I would say um , and then a bit of the acidity from from the lemon , um , but yeah , refreshing um . If you have it cold , um , and if you have it hot , you get that real in the steam . You get all the sort of fruitiness coming through , which is which is quite nice so that's another interesting thing about your approach I wanted to touch on , then .

Speaker 2 23:20

So because your , your liquids can be not the cans

Hot, cold & in mocktails

Speaker 2 23:24

, obviously , just the the bottles can be enjoyed hot or cold , or mixed into cocktails , um yes , and that's quite unique to find something that has those sort of different use cases yeah tell me a bit more about that so in terms of the cocktails that it's really mocktails that we're mixing them into we want to stay sort of in the non-alcoholic space with it .

Speaker 1 23:52

Originally we thought , okay , this is quite an interesting concept because it's still healthier than having a cocktail with filled with sugar syrups . But we decided that actually the messaging around that needed to stay non-alcoholic . So we're actually building a few non-alcoholic mocktail menus for some partners in London at the moment . Fantastic . But yes , the versatility . What we felt was that there's a lot of if you're wanting a sophisticated crafted flavour , sophisticated crafted flavor in the same way that you would expect from a non-alcoholic cocktail , or a pair of teeth or a herbal tea . Herbal tea fine , easy to do . Tea bag in in the cup , not a problem . But then you've got the . You know in many cases I know there are a few businesses out now that addressing the sort of environmental issues around tea bags , but still that is a slight problem .

Speaker 1 24:47

But particularly with the crafted flavors and non-alcoholic spirits , a lot of the menus and suggested serves are incredibly complex . You know you've got things like guava syrup and things that people just don't have at home . So the simplicity of serve was key for us . You're leaving the house in the morning . You're coming home late at night . You want something that is just a bit special , that's got that flavor profile . You're sitting on the sofa , you're having a dinner party , you're doing whatever . You don't want to be faffing around with five , six , seven different ingredients to create this drink . You just want to 25 mil of mush , 200 , 250 mil of soda and ice , and that's it and you've got . We've done the hard work of crafting the flavors and you can then just sit down and enjoy them . And that was it . Because people are increasingly time poor , they are um . I think also , with the amount of um options out there on the market , these consumers are becoming more and more discerning as well . You know , it's not just about throwing a cordial onto the table and being done with it . There's actually many more options , you know , mush being one of them that provides a better option , and not only flavor wise , but with the you know the health element as well .

Speaker 1 26:04

I think we started from the point of view of if you're having a dinner party and you've got guests coming over maybe it's midweek they don't want to be drinking , they don't want to be feeling fuzzy the next morning what are you going to serve them in that moment . What is going to go onto the table ? And that was one of the first questions we asked , because we weren't sure what the answer to that was . Most people that we posed that question to they said oh , we just put a jug of water on the sparkling water and that was it . But most people provide well , yeah , exactly . So we thought , okay , well , this is perfect , this is exactly where that sits , you know it's an easy to serve , easy to drink .

Speaker 1 26:44

Grown-up flavor for people that don't necessarily want alcohol .

Speaker 2 26:47

I think it's . I think it's a a brilliant approach and it's it's a great way to be able to introduce a product that can serve people at different points in their life , uh , different points throughout their day in their life . So , like you said , you know in in the morning if you're looking at something , uh to give you a little bit of a bit of a pep and we all know that turmeric and even though it's staining everything yellow , when you do get it back in it has also got a whole bunch of health benefits . So you know you're using ingredients that are really going to boost somebody's uh performance , their concentration , their energy levels , uh , and knowing that you're having something that's good for you first thing in the morning , it's just mentally a good tick box for people to complete absolutely , but then being able to do that again at the end of the evening and say , right , okay , well , maybe in the evening maybe I'll have a blueberry and raspberry and maybe I'll have it hot and you can have something .

Speaker 2 27:38

You know we're recording in February . Now it's yeah cold , it's wintry . Um , they will have something that's hot and warming and then still good for you , um yeah , and I I sorry just to touch on that .

Speaker 1 27:51

It's interesting as well because a lot of the um , the sort of um b2b customers that we're working with at the moment um , there's a few um chains and independents in london that we're in conversation with at the moment , one of whom is a major chain and we're developing an entire non-alcoholic menu for them .

Speaker 1 28:09

But the interesting thing for them was the fact that a lot of the things that they offer on their menu they have to switch between summer and winter and the brands they work with are different between summer and winter because they're positioned in one particular season , whereas with us , one of the really interesting things for them is the fact that they don't have to change the product or find a new supplier , because we can do both , because , as you say , in the winter , in the colder months , you can push the hot versions and in the summer months you push the cold versions . It doesn't change it for them , it is . It's all about simplicity , and I think it's simplicity of serve , it's simplicity of enjoying it from an individual point of view , it's simplicity of working with these sort of these independents , these bars , these chains , and making their life easier as well . So yeah , there's several touch points there .

Speaker 2 28:57

I think you may have just uncovered , you know , the master business plan you know you're touching all the points . And so so you , those are your , your large glass bottles , those are for adult enjoyment , not because they're hallucinogenic or because they're going to send you loopy , but just those are the more adult flavor profiles . Yeah , and then , uh

For the kids: Mini MUUSH

Speaker 2 29:19

again , if you're watching , you can see . Next to that we have your selection of RTD cans . So tell me a bit more about these , because these you refer to as your mini moosh .

Speaker 1 29:31

Yeah . And they have your very cool , very awesome little spaceman on there I'd like to know more about , I'd like to meet him .

Speaker 2 29:42

I'd like to know his name , please . Yeah , yeah . So tell me a bit more about the mini moosh option name please .

Speaker 1 29:47

Yeah , yeah , um .

Speaker 1 29:47

So tell me a bit more about the mini moosh option . So , the mini moosh , the , as I said at the start , um , the thinking behind that was a lot of the options . A lot of the kids that were coming into our bar were they . The only choices they had were water or high sugar , either juices or fizzy drinks by brands that we will not name . Um , so what we wanted to do was the .

Speaker 1 30:12

The first , the first sort of important point for us with that was to reduce the sugar as much as we could . Obviously , taste is important . Kids have a very discerning palate . They will simply just not drink anything they don't want to drink . So , um , there has to be an element of sweetness in there that has you know , there has to be an element of them wanting to have it . So we thought , okay , well , let's , let's reduce the sugar as much as we possibly can .

Speaker 1 30:35

Um , a lot of these drinks that we were

Carcinogenic concerns of sugar

Speaker 1 30:38

serving in in our bar have 22 , 27 , some of them even over 30 grams of sugar per can . Depending on who you speak to , your daily allowance for sugar is somewhere between 20 and 30 grams a day . For kids it's obviously the lower end of that between 18 and 20 grams . So we thought , well , we obviously need to be below that and let's try and keep it as low as we possibly can . So each can um , I forget the exact amount , but it's about five and a half grams of sugar , five and a half grams of sugar per can . But , importantly , it's natural sugars , it's fructose , it's not , it's not refined , okay , and there's no artificial sweeteners , which is another thing . When we were sort of delving into the artificial sweetener side of things and and I think a lot of people worry about the fact that aspartame , sulfame , they , it's a carcinogenic problem , but actually it seems to us and in the research that we we did , that it's less about the , the carcinogen element , and more about the fact that you're effectively tricking your brain into thinking sugar's coming into your body . It's not , and it becomes an obesity problem because your , your brain , is preparing your body to receive sugar . It then doesn't receive it . It's then sort of hungry for it and it becomes , you know , you're leaving your body in a deficit , so it's craving that for the for the next couple of hours . Um .

Speaker 1 32:02

So , yeah , we wanted to create something that sat in the space , that wasn't filled with sugar and again had those positive nutritional benefits that many of the other drinks on the market didn't have , um , so , uh , yeah , so that that was the sort of starting point and then we got , you know , our , our friends , kids and random people that would try it , um , to help us develop that product with them , and I think we've ended up with a product now that we're really , really happy with . We did a photo shoot actually with Mini Mush a few weeks ago and one of the little boy there , remy I think . He ended up drinking about 10 cans of it . He kept sneaking it . We had so much stock with us he kept disappearing off with another can . I'm not sort of slightly unsure about how many he had by the end of the day , but yeah , we just wanted to provide a better option for people and I think , yeah , you touched on the spaceman .

Speaker 1 32:59

I mean , our spaceman ties into our tagline , which is

One Small Step docuseries

Speaker 1 33:04

one small step , and the thinking behind that is if you can take . Obviously we're not going to save the world with with a drink . Well , depends how many drinks we sell . Maybe , maybe we might in 10 years from now . But really the thinking was if you can take that first small step , which could be , can be anything , but from our perspective , is choosing to drink mini mush or mush or um , you know something that is , or something else , but just with the mindset of , instead of choosing that fizzy drink filled with sugar and filled with artificial preservatives and sweeteners , and you , you're thinking down that line . What's the next step ? Where does that take you ? What's the compounding effect of that mindset shift ?

Speaker 1 33:49

Um , and with that in mind , you know , we've , we've created a , a , um , a docu-series called the one small step series , and it the idea behind that is championing ordinary people doing extraordinary things and the small steps that got them there , because nobody is born a world champion water skier , nobody is born wanting to circumnavigate the world on a motorbike at the age of 22 . There are things that happen along the way that get you there , and those sort of seemingly insignificant decisions along the way actually have a huge compounding effect when it gets to , you know , a few years down the line . And I think that's , you know , that's the spaceman , it's this sort of idea of exploration and adventure and , um , all things that we , we put , we place huge importance on at much . You know , every time we we speak to people it's about ? Do you share these values with us ? Do you share this sort of uh , this need for adventure and exploration and and trying to sort of improve and do better and and look for better options in food and drink and whatever it might be ? Um , so that's the , that's the thinking behind the spaceman , but it , yeah , in terms of the , the mini range , I think we're really excited about that because it's actually an area of the drinks industry that has been .

Speaker 1 35:09

There has been some innovation , but it's been largely overlooked . And again , you know , without sort of naming any names , in the space there's a few players who really control

Disrupting the alcohol market

Speaker 1 35:19

the majority of the market and they haven't innovated massively over the last 10 or 15 years . And they haven't innovated massively over the last 10 or 15 years and I think it's those brands' complacency my grandfather always used to say to me that , you know , complacency kills businesses and it's when you think that you've got market share and you don't need to try and push things forward or move into another space or innovate because you're making so much money . It's those companies that are at maximum risk of being disrupted by , hopefully , somebody like us who can come along and place the importance on these things and be able to react more quickly and test things quicker . But yeah , I think we're all very excited about the potential of mini-motion . But yeah , I think we're all very excited about the potential of MiniMush .

Speaker 1 36:11

Yeah , we were talking this morning about , I remember , when Innocent , who are a very interesting brand , but they came out with those little bobble hats on the bottles , which was a genius marketing move . But we were thinking I wonder what they thought beyond that . I wonder what they thought the little hats were beyond . Just sort of , we're going to get noticed for this . I wonder what the application was . So we were thinking how do we sort of do something similar to that , but with a more practical application ? But that was a genius move by them .

Speaker 2 36:37

I'm thinking little space helmets and then like passes to go to NASA or something . Yeah , exactly , it's like Charlie and the Chocolate .

Speaker 1 36:45

Factory or something you know big . Yeah , exactly , it's like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory the golden ticket . Inside one space helmet . There's a ticket to Houston to go and yeah , there you go I think we've just done it . I think we've just done it .

Speaker 2 36:56

Go hang out with Tim and the guys and see what space explorers they can do ?

Speaker 1 37:00

Yeah , exactly that .

Speaker 2 37:02

No , I think you're absolutely right . Do yeah , exactly that . No , I think you're absolutely right . I mean , I said it earlier on , you know it is difficult finding things . Uh , I'm very lucky my , my daughter , likes water , so she drinks a lot of water yeah and then , um , my son will drink lots of squashes generally , um , and we , we hardly ever they've they've tasted fizzy drinks . We waited so long to allow them to taste a fizzy drink that they don't actually like the , the fizzing which is absolutely fantastic for me but , other than that .

Speaker 2 37:29

You know , we're in half term and we're doing packed lunches at the moment and it your options are limited , you know and it's you just . You choose between the lesser of two evils . You know you go for a boxed fruit juice , smoothie type drink and those have got so much sugar in them . You know people think that because it's juice it doesn't have sugar . Tons and tons of sugar in it or you go for a still squash style one . Um , that's in a cool bottle that they like playing with . You're like well , you know it's .

Speaker 2 37:56

It's six of one , half a dozen of the others they've got to have something yeah , they've got to have something so it's nice and I and I've tasted these and what and what I like about these is that there is a sweetness to them . They're not , because quite often you get things that are healthier and they are . You know , we're healthy , we're sugar-free , we have all the good stuff and you taste it . And it's back to your reference to the wheatgrass . You know it's like okay , well , it tastes healthy .

Speaker 2 38:21

It doesn't taste good , whereas these have . They do taste nice . You can taste the fruit in them , you can taste the sweetness in them , you can enjoy them . But it's not cloying , it's not sickly , it's not overwhelming , the carbonation isn't too strong .

Speaker 1 38:35

So that was . That was exactly it , Because , to your point of , you know , your kids not enjoying the fizziness I think that was that was some feedback that we got quite early on is that these really fizzy drinks ? You know , sparkling water , for example , is very fizzy . Kids just don't enjoy that . So we've sort of we've put a bit of fizz in there , but it's very lightly sparkling , so it's not , you know , it's certainly not going to cause any issue . Well , it's not as close to sparkling water as you might think . Basically , Absolutely .

Speaker 2 39:07

You used a word while you were talking there which I really liked . You talked about disrupting the market , and I like that because you mentioned earlier on as well the fact that , with your venue , that you had been working with the likes of Asahi , and how , if you had approached them now rather than a few years back , things would be very different . Um , I wanted to get some of your opinion on on how brands like yours are disrupting the drinks market at the moment , because the numbers are there , uh , the , the patterns are shifting , uh , and I sometimes worry that , because I live in this world of alcohol-free drinks or low-known light drinks , that my view is skewed . I look through alcohol-free tinted spectacles at the world , but actually , brands like Asahi , your big ALK producers , your Diageos , your , your big alc producers , your diageos , uh , your ab in beds they are seeing a decline in sales of excuse me , for alcohol drinks , and then brands like yours are coming along and going hi guys , look what we've got for you .

Speaker 2 40:21

and whilst we're starting from a very small base , and whilst , financially speaking , yes , the low , no alcohol market is not a threat today to the full alcohol market , the trends that we're seeing suggest that it's going that way , you know , and that big alcohol has got something to worry about .

Speaker 1 40:50

And really in the past , if you're meeting up with friends and you're going for a night out , in many places the only thing for you to be able to do is go to the pub , is go to a bar . So drinking is the core of that social interaction . Over the last sort of five I mean really sort of five , 10 years , there's been a real rise in experiential things . You like flight club and um putt shack and things where drinking isn't the focus . You know , people want to have an experience other than that and that takes the pressure off being of having to drink . So I think there's a lot of people that can . Now you I mean myself included .

Speaker 1 41:28

You know , in the week I don't want to be , I don't want to be drinking alcohol . I , I don't . I I occasionally , you know , go to the pub as everybody does . I'll have a drink , I'll have the beer , I'll have a glass of wine . But in the week I really don't want to be doing that because I need , we've got so much on and we need to be operating at a hundred percent . I don't want to be feeling fuzzy the next day . So I I would choose to be drinking non-alcohol and um , and actually I was in a restaurant last night . They had one out . They had a huge menu , one alcoholic thing on the menu , um , which I just thought was really interesting .

Speaker 1 42:03

You know , we're still , I think , as you said , we're viewing the world through this no and low , tinted , tinted spectacle perspective , but , um , actually a lot of these venues haven't caught up yet . You know , there's still quite a long way to go , but it is moving in that direction and I think , certainly for the big players , you know , like the asahi's , the um , the agios , the , the big distributors , they're , they're thinking okay , well , you know , we've got to be slightly ahead of market here , because this is , this is where that , this is where everything's shifting . We've got to be part of it . So , yeah , I think it is 100% moving in that direction . I think the amount of brands that have emerged over the last two years , even that are operating in that space , the amount of money that's being invested into the functional space , specifically shows that investors and partners and people who understand the space can see that's where things are shifting and I think it's a good thing . I think it's a very good thing .

Speaker 2 43:02

And the functional space seems to be having a just a boom at the moment . There

Functional gains

Speaker 2 43:09

are , there is so much interest . I mean , even I've noticed in the content , for example , that I'll put out , whether it's a podcast episode , whether it's a blog , whether it's a post on social media those that mention functional ingredients in some way , shape or form seem to be getting a lot of traction at the moment . It seems that people are . I touched on this before but people are not just wanting to drink less , they're wanting to gain more Gain something .

Speaker 1 43:37

Yeah , exactly that , and that's that sort of . That goes back to what I was saying earlier on the scale of the sort of rather than and you said actually in your intro , it's sort of it's less now about just doing less bad , it's about doing some good . You know how far can we go beyond just the sort of Center point which is water ? You know how far can we go beyond just the sort of center point which is water ? You know , just hydration , where can we take it from the other side of the scale and and how much good can we put in there ? Um , you know people are thinking in those terms I think that's interesting .

Speaker 2 44:09

I hadn't quite , uh , articulated it like that , but I think that's the narrative now , isn't it ? It's people aren't necessarily saying I'm sober , I'm teetotal , I'm completely alcohol free . People are now saying I I'm sober , curious , I'm a mindful drinker , I'm considering my options , I'm you know , I'm wanting more , and it's . I think that the way that we approach these conversations now is is changing , because it's no longer so taboo to say you know I'm not drinking tonight , or you know I'm having a week off , or whatever it is yeah the way we approach these conversations and what we want , and the fact that we are now more open to expressing that we want more out of life .

Speaker 2 44:54

We want to gain more and we don't you know , definitely want to have a fuzzy head while we're trying to build a business or go for a run , whatever it is . Yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 45:03

No , I think so and I , but I think it's allowing people . You know there's there's a lot of information out there just on the internet Just , and I think even I'm noticing conversations with , with people that in the past probably wouldn't have spoken about nutrition now are because you can't really avoid it . But it's amazing really . I mean , you know you've got high street chains who are well known . You know people are going there every day for their sort of their lunch . They're getting a meal deal there , whatever lunch they're getting a meal deal , they're whatever .

Speaker 1 45:37

And it's becoming apparent that these brands have been hiding in plain sight with stuff that is so unhealthy . You know , I mean there's , there's a well known um high street chain that you go to for lunch and you know a sandwich , a drink pack of crisps , whatever the baguettes that they sell have got 50 grams of sugar in them and that's that's just in the bread , that's just a preservative . You know just a lunch from them at a takeaway lunch you're took . You know , in many cases you're nudging 100 grams of sugar , which is absolutely insane because even for an adult , that you're talking 300 through , over 300 percent of your daily allowance , which is just . There is no argument that can say that that's good for you . Um , and I think people are cottoning on to it and and you can understand why these bigger brands do it . You know for , for these , for these multi-site chains who are trying to reduce losses , they're trying to reduce waste , they're adding preservatives in to keep shelf life longer and they're not throwing so much in the bin .

Speaker 1 46:35

You , I mean , there's an argument there from a business perspective , there's an argument there from a wastage perspective , but from a health perspective there just isn't , because you know that isn't doing anybody any good and certainly over any period of time .

Speaker 1 46:49

If you're consuming , if you , if you , I think it's fairly safe to assume that you'll be having some sugar either side of a lunch , be it in a coffee with the sugar , or breakfast or whatever it is . If you're consuming 150 , 160 , 200 grams of sugar a day , you are putting your body at risk . You are , um , you know you're not setting yourself up for a healthy later life . Um , and I think we're trying to do something about it from a drinks perspective , but I think actually , there's a lot of people that are talking about it publicly and it's becoming more mainstream , and that knowledge is becoming more mainstream and it's becoming , as you say , more acceptable to just be talking about it and just be raising that in conversation and and making sure that everybody else is aware absolutely , and and that high street chain that you mentioned when I when I learned that I was so annoyed .

Speaker 2 47:42

I love their salvages .

Speaker 1 47:44

I know , I have to say I I was devastated because I , like you , would often pop in there . Um , and then , when we started going down this road , I thought actually I probably do need to start checking what's in things . And I was I mean , yeah , my mind was blown , yeah .

Speaker 2 48:00

If people want to know what Chainlet is , you can easily Google it . It's , it's . It's very often spoken about Speaking of Googling things , matt . Two more things before I let you go . You mentioned a docuseries that you have created . Uh , we've spoken about all of your wonderful products . Where do people go when they want to find out more about mush ? Uh , they want to put a bottle or can in their own fridge , watch your docuseries or reach out

Where to connect

Speaker 2 48:27

to you guys . Where do you want them to find you ?

Speaker 1 48:29

so our website , um is wwwmushcoco , um , and it's all there , um . So we've got at the moment we're selling , uh , all the elixirs , all the bottles are on there , um , mini mush we are rolling out over the next few weeks and that will be . They will be on there , and our uh first episode of the one small step series with fred winter , who , um , he is a good friend of mine

One Small Step guests

Speaker 1 48:57

I've known for a long time , but he is amazing . He was our first one . He was sort of our trial of to see how we could sort of structure the episodes . But yeah , he had a bit of a nightmare last summer . He , he was world champion . He then , in a competition , skied at 70 miles an hour into a dock and shattered his femur oh my god , nearly died and then went through um , this whole um process , uh , recovery process to get back to match fit , being match fit , and he's actually skiing in his first competition next week , I think again , which is just , I mean he's got he's still got a rod in his leg holding .

Speaker 1 49:36

I think it's now healed , hopefully , but yeah yeah , but it's you know that he was sort of perfect for it , because it is really for him . It is about those small steps , you know . It's about those iterative little movements , forward movements that you make to get towards that end goal . Skiing in england in the winter when we were at school he would go out the weekends and he'd be skiing in sub-zero temperatures in a lake in oxford and making making that decision to go and do that got him one step closer to his goal of being world champion . Um , I actually have his . Uh , he was traveling and I have his world championship trophy here in my place . But you know , it's really inspiring just hearing him talk about where he started and where he ended up and the sacrifices he had to make to do that .

Speaker 1 50:26

And then our second episode is with Elspeth , who's an amazing lady who actually , funny enough , lives about 200 meters from our bar and coffee shop and I was put in contact with her from a guy that I met in in london , so I didn't know that was the case , and turned out that's where she lived in a water tower that she converted about 20 years ago . Um , but she , you know again , um just decided she a couple of things happened to her and she thought she'd started riding motorbikes and then thought I wonder how far I can take this , I wonder where I can go and how many adventures I can go on on this thing , and ended up circumnavigating the world over two years . She went through war zones , she had several crashes , her bike set on fire . So we finished that episode and that's going to be going live , hopefully next week .

Speaker 1 51:15

Um , but yeah , she's , you know , incredible person . Um , and I say lives in a water tower , so her living room is 180 feet off the ground . Okay , so you , I mean with like eight flights of stairs , I mean unbelievable amazing .

Speaker 2 51:28

That sounds like a fantastic series .

Speaker 2 51:30

I'm definitely going to check that out myself and highly encourage lono nation to go and and see it as , because that's what this journey is all about , you know , it's a . It's about recognizing the steps and the changes that you can make to achieve the life that you want to achieve . It's not about saying , today I'm giving up alcohol forever , tomorrow I'm climbing Mount Everest . It's taking those steps , it's making those changes and I think that sounds like a brilliant example for it all . Matt , before I let you go , very last question is one that I ask everybody who comes on the show , because I'm all about spreading the low no and light alcohol , love and appreciation around the world to all of low no nation .

Speaker 2 52:11

So we've already mentioned that we're filming in February , so it's cold . So I'm going to need you to cast your mind forward

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 52:17

to the summer months and imagine you're off to a barbecue at a friend's house , maybe underneath Elspeth's water tower . And you are bringing a couple of drinks with you to enjoy on days when you're choosing not to drink full strength alcohol . What else in the low , no and light space , apart from your own fabulous , fabulous concoctions , do you like to enjoy ?

Speaker 1 52:42

do you know I probably am one of many , many millions who would say the same thing , but for me at the moment , I just think guinness zero has done such a great . I think guinness have done an incredible job with Guinness Zero . I think Guinness in general I just see everywhere now . I mean it's always been around , but I think over the last few years it's really just . You know , everybody seems to be drinking it , and certainly , I think , guinness Zero . I think often you sacrifice flavor when you know if you're having just a non-alcoholic version of an alcoholic drink . But I think Guinness Zero have really managed to keep that flavour and keep the essence of what a Guinness is in their non-alcoholic version . So I would yeah , I would without doubt say that .

Speaker 2 53:32

I'm going to have to try and find a way to get somebody from guinness zero on to the pod because it is last year and so far this year , it is one of the most popular choices from founders like yourselves . When I ask this question , everyone's absolutely loving it yeah , no , I think they've done a great job .

Speaker 1 53:49

I think , um , I think the other people , just from a marketing perspective , that have done a fantastic job . This year is Lucky Saint . You know , I think you know their marketing campaigns have seen them . I think it was a bold strategy with none , but I think you know it's eye catching and they've , you know they've managed to really corner that market . I tend to I would probably choose Guinness Zero for Lucky Saint , but I think they've done an incredible job . Choose guinness zero over lucky saint , but I think they've done an incredible job . Um , and I've had plenty of lucky saint over the last couple years and things . They've done an amazing job with their drink as well . So , um , yeah , I either . I would be happy with either of them and you're right with them .

Speaker 2 54:26

Their marketing choices are definitely bold and they definitely take some courage to decide to go ahead and do that , but it's paid off in in droves , absolutely what would be ?

Speaker 1 54:37

what would be your choice ? What would you take to the barbecue ?

Speaker 2 54:40

oh , no one's ever , no one's ever turned the question . Uh question on me um , do you know what beer wise I've really enjoyed ? Well , there's two , two I've really enjoyed . So , um , there , the , there's a brewery called um . Oh gosh , just go on a renegade . And they made a peach . Uh , ipa , which I I've never been a fan of ipas or fruity beers , but somehow they managed to get this spot on and it turns out that they white label the beer for marks and spencers .

Speaker 2 55:07

So I was like , okay , I've made a good choice here okay and then the other one was one my husband and I tried a couple of days ago which I put , if anyone wants to see . I put a picture on my instagram a few days ago and it's by a brewery called amundsen and it is called the electric mango boobaloo and it is a blue , uh sour lager and it is blue color like , if you think about wkD blue blue is that kind of colour ?

Speaker 1 55:35

Wow , it tastes amazing .

Speaker 2 55:37

It's an alcohol free , it's 0.5% and , yeah , it's phenomenal . Wow , those would be perfect barbecue beers .

Speaker 1 55:46

Okay , I'll know what to get on the drinks list when we have a summer mush barbecue , which , of course , you will hopefully attend .

Speaker 2 55:55

I'll be there . Absolutely Fantastic , Matt . Thank you so much for joining me today . It's been a pleasure chatting to you again and and getting to know more about the story behind the brand and what you guys are up to . I'm really excited to see what happens next for you , so please do stay in touch .

Speaker 1 56:12

Well , thank you so much for your time . Um really um enjoyed chatting to you as well , and no doubt we will chat soon .