Speaker 1 1:13

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the low , no and light alcohol revolution . Today , I'm happy to be in conversation with the lovely Chris Cardone . Chris is a beverage consultant and chief mixologist

Meeting Chris Cardone

Speaker 1 1:32

and a public speaker . He's a career bartender who , despite being sober for the last 10 years , has continued to work in hospitality because it's an area that he loves and , rather than abandon it , he wanted to stay within it and help to make it the best place it could be for those looking for alternative ways to drink .

Speaker 1 1:51

Chris' CV is long . I won't go through it all , but it includes highlights such as winning bartender of the year in 2017 . Uh , he's a four-time national flair bartending finalist and if you don't know what flair bartending is , think back to tom cruise cocktail era . But like cool and actually knowing what he's doing . He's also taught celebrities how to flair bartend , including our very own , uh , friendly neighborhood spider-man , tom holland , who has also recently brought out an alcohol-free beer . If you haven't heard of it , it's called bureau and if you're watching a video , you can see it behind me on the shelf there . So chris has been a very busy little bee , and I'm really excited to chat to him today . So , chris , thank you so much for joining me . How are you , my lovely ?

Speaker 2 2:37

I'm wonderful . Thank you so much for having me on . I appreciate it .

Speaker 1 2:41

Oh , it is my pleasure , my pleasure . So we spoke a little while ago and we've got a lot of stuff in common , you and I , and it all stems from a passion for a very long career in hospitality and bartending and making drinks . And I wanted to get you on because I think it's really important that we continue to have this conversation and let people know that they can still enjoy that hospitality way of life . They can still enjoy going out to places ,

The importance of hospitality

Speaker 1 3:06

but we need to help empower people so that they feel comfortable and confident in doing that , and I know that that's an area that's really important to you as well .

Speaker 2 3:16

It is .

Speaker 2 3:16

It is on both fronts .

Speaker 2 3:17

I think , as someone who is sober and who hasn't had a drink and closing in on 10 years , it's important for people like myself to be able to still go out and still have a great meal and a great experience and not feel uncomfortable or unwelcome . But at the same time , I think it's important for bars and restaurants and hotels and resorts to also understand that there is an inclusive responsibility on their end to make sure that people do feel welcomed and wanted and seen . But I mean to be perfectly frank also . There's a financial aspect to it as well that people like myself I'm not going to your restaurant and not drinking alcohol because I'm trying to save money , it's because I don't drink alcohol . So it's important for them to understand the value of non-alcoholic options and beverages so that they can continue to make money and pay their bills and make sure their servers are still making money at the same time . So I see it from both angles as a sober person , but also as somebody who works in the industry . There's value for everyone here .

Speaker 1 4:23

Absolutely , and this is exactly the kind of insight that I was excited to get you on the show for . So thank you for coming out the gate strong . I'm going to . Yes , exactly , I'm going to start where I start with all my guests , which is asking you to share a little bit about your own backstory , Obviously as much or as little as you feel comfortable with . I don't usually mention how long someone's been sober for . I don't feel it's any of my business to ask that , but obviously it was part of our conversation

Chris' story

Speaker 1 4:49

. But what was the journey that led you from being in hospitality changing the way that you drink and then deciding to stay in that realm and to make it such a positive place for other people ?

Speaker 2 5:02

Yeah , it's a long story . I was a drinker since I want to say maybe 17 or 18 . And obviously you being outside of the States , there's obviously a very different drinking culture when you go across the pond and so I feel like people in the States , what we do is we don't drink , we don't drink , we don't drink , and then as soon as we start we binge pretty fast , especially in the college years and university stuff like that . So there's a very heavy drinking culture that comes in pretty fast . Most people don't just sip on a glass of wine with their family at dinner in the States , so it's it's sort of because it's that sort of a forbidden fruit , we jump in , you know , into the , the , into the deep end very quickly . So I followed that same pattern and I think , being in the alcohol industry at the year I did , I started attending bar in 2000 . I think there was a different lifestyle then for bartenders than there is today and I think that back then a lot of bartenders felt the need to sort of fit into a role as the biggest partier , the heaviest drinker , that sort of role that comes with the bartender and I'm luck . I'm glad to see that that role has changed a lot over the past five , 10 years , where people don't feel that way anymore and the word sober bartender is much more acceptable thing . But I didn't . I didn't get that message when I started , so I was again just drinking very heavily and I didn't really see too much of an issue with it at first , as most problems don't usually show their head right away , you kind of think everything's fine . So

Hallucinogenic episodes

Speaker 2 6:46

throughout the years I would have these weird hallucinogenic episodes where I would start to sort of lose grip on reality , and I would . They usually were some sort of apocalyptic nature , but I would see things or or think things were there that weren't there , and I would always wake up the next day with some form of excuse for why they happened . And they never had to do with alcohol , of course . So it was dehydration , it was lack of sleep , it was getting roofied or somebody putting something in my drink . There was always some other excuse besides that it could have to do with alcohol , and so this happened three or four times over the course of maybe 10 years , and there was never any kind of consistency where I was noticing a certain amount of drinks that this happened with , or a certain place or certain people or anything like that . It was just very , very random over the time , so I never really put too much thought into it other than just whoa , that was weird . The next day the shoe finally dropped in 2015 .

Speaker 2 7:55

I was working for a restaurant out on the East end of Long Island in the Hamptons area . I was subletting my boss's basement . While working there on the weekends , she and I worked a double . That day . Then we went out with two other people on the staff to a bar down the street . I had a beer and a shot , which for me was , you know , an appetizer . It was certainly not a lot of alcohol . You know , some people a beer and a shot would get them very , very intoxicated . I was not at that place at that time , so I had a beer and a shot and the episode happened again , and this one was hours , hours hours long of blackout and confusion and anxiety and fear of death from zombies , and again they were always some sort of apocalyptic nature and zombies were this one . So everything I'm kind of telling you is secondhand because I don't really remember any of it , but the general gist was I woke up the next morning to a text from my boss and she asked me what I was on the night before and I told her I explained to her that I don't never did drugs Drugs were never really my thing and that I don't really know why that happened .

Speaker 2 9:08

And you know , I had just met her three weeks , a month before that . So she said well , listen , that really weirded me out and I don't really know you . So it's probably best that we don't work together anymore

A life changing question

Speaker 2 9:20

. And that was the first time that alcohol had ever had a negative impact on my job ever . And so I took pause and it really really made me nervous . So I reached out to a friend of mine and I said I'm going to take a year off from drinking , sort of just to get my mind wrapped around what happened . Take a step back . And then I fully planned on continuing to drink in a year .

Speaker 2 9:42

And I got to about six to eight months and I was working at the restaurant I was working at in New York and a server who happened to be sober . He came over to me one day during the shift and said hey , can I ask you a personal question ? And I said , of course . And he said what happens in a couple months from now , when you hit your one year , do you just go back to being a crazy drinker again ? And without hesitation I said no , I'm never going to drink again . And I didn't really think about it until it came out of my mouth and then I said , whoa , I can't believe . I just said that and that has just kind of been the map . I just never really started drinking ever again .

Staying in hospitality sober

Speaker 2 10:22

So the big issue for me was that I had to decide whether or not I could do this in work in this industry and still be sober , and I had a lot of insecurity about that at first . I thought that there was no way I could make it in this industry for multiple reasons . How can someone who's sober understand spirits , understand flavor ? How do I test my cocktails when I make them and make sure they taste good if I don't drink ? How do I network if I don't drink ? And how do I go out and how do I fit in with the crowd ? How do I fit in with my coworkers ? Am I a fraud if I'm serving other people alcohol but I'm sober ?

Speaker 2 11:04

There was so much that came up with it .

Speaker 2 11:05

I remember at the time I would be having fights online on Facebook and other social media platforms about whether or not you could do this , and I had people telling me that you can't be both , you can't do both , and having full-blown comment arguments about whether or not you can and you can understand flavor and balance if you don't drink , and on and on and on it goes .

Speaker 2 11:56

And so I'm happy to say that almost 10 years in , those people were very wrong and I was very right and I love saying I was right because I don't get to do it very often , but this was one of those cases where I really got a chance to say you know what ? They were completely wrong in their assessment . And I have not only survived the industry , but I would like to think I've thrived in the industry , having won the biggest bartending competition in the States at Diageo World Class in 17 , and then gone on to be a spirits educator for Diageo , start a line of RTDs , work in a very high volume and high , well-respected restaurant for all these years and now launched my own consulting business . So for me , the fact that I'm sober is a compartment of my career , not an overwhelming umbrella or an arch over my career .

Speaker 1 12:49

I think it's fair to say that you could go back to any of those trolls and just say I believe the kids used to say in your face it was the term that you guys used to use .

Speaker 1 12:57

Yeah , for sure , for sure I mean , wow , there's so much there . I mean , first of all , it sounds like you had a sort of almost a chemical reaction that was going

A chemical reaction?

Speaker 1 13:07

on in your brain that was causing some sort of adverse , deeply terrifying sounding experiences , because that sounds more like you'd expect those stories from someone who said that they took a bad trip or they were on mushrooms or something that not just you know a beer and a shot , because it was a beer and a shot . You think that's just like you say . Particularly working in hospitality , I was exactly the same . That's just , that's the start of a shift . That's not even anything intense . So I certainly feel for what you must've gone through , because that must've been absolutely terrifying for you .

Speaker 2 13:39

Yeah , it was very confusing . Like I said , the first couple of times it happened there was always a different reason for it , but it was one of those like whoa , that was crazy . But people always wake up with those whoa , that was crazy . Attitudes Like that's just how drinking culture is right . You black out , you get really drunk , you even maybe throw up all over the place and the next day people are making fun of you . You laugh it off and you just go about your merry way . So it was always just sort of like all right , you know that happened , that was crazy , but I'm not quitting drinking , like that would be crazy .

Speaker 2 14:09

That would be crazy and so that that was always the attitude until that last one . And , like I said , that was the first time it had a negative aspect on work and I thought I think that I always had sort of that we'll call it like safe valve where I said if drinking is not affecting me on a personal work level , it's not that big of a deal . I can always apologize to somebody for acting like a jerk . I can always apologize to friends for being out of control . I can always try to fix whatever let's say damage control that I did from drinking too much . But when I was told not to come back to a job even if it was a part-time summer thing , it didn't matter to me it was the first time that something like that had happened and that was sort of like my rock bottom , if you will .

Speaker 1 14:57

Yeah , amazing , amazing . And so . So talk to me then , about how you made this journey through the hospitality industry then , because I can imagine that those people who were making those comments online saying , you know , you can't be a bartender if you , if you don't

Being a sober career bartender

Speaker 1 15:16

taste drinks , yeah , how can you make a cocktail ? And , like you said yourself , was I going to be a fraud if I was giving other people alcohol by saying that I'm not taking it myself ? And I can imagine that the inner turmoil that you would have gone through trying to decide exactly where your place would be in this industry that you'd obviously grown to love .

Speaker 1 15:37

When we spoke before , you used the term . You know you're a career bartender , and over here in the UK we don't usually use that term . It's not something that that's often said , but I do know that in the States you have career bartenders , career waitresses , and these people are really passionate about what they do . And you're there entering competitions with the likes of Diageo . I mean , that's no small task . So how did you begin to reconcile this being around all this alcohol , making and serving these drinks and yet distancing yourself from it so well ?

Speaker 2 16:08

It wasn't easy , but it was a matter of just trying to work through each situation . So I think the first one for me was trying to decide again whether I could even stay in the industry , and I had decided that compartmentalization would be my best friend here . So I had to decide whether my problem with alcohol was work-related or social . And for me I didn't really drink behind the bar , that was never really my thing , it was always after work . And so what I decided was that I could still be an effective bartender and I can still understand flavor and balance and menus and all of the things that come into bartending , and not drink alcohol at work . I could do that no problem . So I said , okay , well , I'll just come to work and do what I normally do .

Speaker 2 16:58

The problem for me was always the social aspect of drinking after work or on a day off or at a party or anything like that . So I decided to just remove that section of my life and not change anything else , and that worked for me . And it doesn't work for everyone , and you as well as anyone know that when it comes to alcohol , sobriety , things like that , there are no one size fits all . Every shoe is different and so I am always very respectful of the fact that not everyone could make that decision and understand that I was able to do it . It doesn't just mean it works for everyone , but it did work for me .

Speaker 2 17:33

I felt like I could compartmentalize and I could still do the job I love because , at the core for me , bartending is not about what's in a cocktail , it's about the experience for someone walking in , and I've always worked in restaurants , so my experience has always been food related , dining related , and the restaurants that I've worked in majority of my career have been sort of higher end places where alcohol , heavy alcohol drinking and people getting drunk has never really been a thing . You know you get your outliers , but overall there's a little bit more of a responsible drinking atmosphere at those places . So it's not , in my face , like bars where you're open till four in the morning and it's more of just a heavy drinking culture . That was never my surroundings .

Speaker 1 18:18

Yeah , so you're more in places where alcohol is to people's enhance their meal or to go , rather than the sole purpose of going there is to get absolutely obliterated .

Speaker 2 18:29

Correct .

Speaker 2 18:30

Exactly , that's exactly right . And so that was the first part of it . And then the second part was how to handle the networking and social aspect , and that was really really hard , because when I got

People thought I was sick

Speaker 2 18:40

sober in 15 , c-lip didn't exist , at least not in the States . There was no non-alcoholic products . There was maybe like a non-alcoholic beer or two I think St Paulie Girl had a non-alcoholic and there was Coors Cutter , but like there was not a lot of choices , and so what I found myself having to do often was either put my hands in my pockets or get a tonic water , and the tonic water would always come in a pint glass with a straw and a big chunk of lime , and I might as well just had a red sign over my head that says I do not drink alcohol , and so I had to deal with that a lot and a lot of people coming up to me asking why I wasn't drinking . And what was really funny was I mean , I'm 145 pounds now , but I was probably 155 when I was drinking , and so I lost probably 10 to 15 pounds , and I'm not a big person , so that 10 pounds really shows up . And it was funny because people were asking me if I was sick , if I had cancer or something like that . There was a lot of stuff going on because I wasn't around a lot anymore and all of a sudden I was losing this weight pretty fast , right , people were asking me why I wasn't drinking , why I was sick , all that stuff . Luckily I'm not a woman , so I didn't at least get the pregnant question every other night . But that was the thing I had to navigate next .

Speaker 2 20:02

And then I remember having a conversation after I won a regional round at world class in 16 . I remember one of the judges actually asking me how come you don't drink ? And I explained the situation and they said well , that's going to be hard , how are you going to do that ? And I remember literally having a judge asked me that . So it was just something I had to navigate through and understand that I can still go out , I can still have a nice time

They told me to shut the fuck up

Speaker 2 20:29

, I can still connect with people on either a professional or a friendship level , without the alcohol aspect . But that's something I had to learn how to do and it's really interesting because , as I got more sober at the beginning , it's kind of like veganism , where you want to shout from the rooftops and tell everybody off the mountain that you figured out the key to life and you want everyone to be sober . And I think that's a natural reaction that we have when we feel good about something that we're doing , we want to share it with everyone else .

Speaker 2 20:58

I did not get a very welcome reception to that . I had a lot of people push back on that , a lot of people sending me text messages and emails saying you know , shut the fuck up , we don't want to hear it , get off your soapbox , get off your high horse . You think you're better than us all that kind of stuff . And it was very , almost surprising that I was getting that kind of vitriol and pushback . So I did , I zipped it up .

Speaker 2 21:22

I didn't say a word about sobriety or my sobriety or anything else for that matter , for years , years . And people would reach out to me personally and say , hey , I don't know you , I've never met you , but I know your story , I know you're sober , I know you work in the industry and I'm really struggling and I don't know how to do this . Can you help me ? And so I would . I don't want to call it coaching , because that's certainly not . It's not to that level but offering insight , offering advice to multiple bartenders around the country for the past few years trying to help them navigate the space without being public about it , and so that really worked well .

Speaker 1 21:57

That's brilliant . That's brilliant that you were there for them .

Speaker 2 22:01

I can say that I think almost every single person that reached out to me during those years is still sober and has found that comfort zone that I think you and I have found , and so that was really , really helpful for me , because they say the best way to learn is to teach , and so by talking through it with other people it's helped me sort of fortify my opinions and helped me understand my sobriety even better and understand the reasons for it and how best to communicate the positives . It's not actually through here , it's through people watching you live a happier life and sort of living by example , if you will , and sort of understanding . That's the best way to show it versus telling everyone not you know , show , don't tell .

Speaker 1 22:46

I think that's absolutely wonderful to hear that there are people that you are helping within this industry , because , you know , hospitality can be a wonderful , wonderful place to work . I have learned so many skills , met so many people , that there's no other industry would have given me the opportunity to meet such a diverse range of people from different places , with different beliefs , with different outlooks , and everyone comes together and it's a true leveler and allows people to to feel connected to to each other . And it's great to hear that there are people who are in this space who are not leaving it now because people like you are helping them go . You know it's okay to stay in this space , but to treat it differently than you have been before , because for me personally , that was one of my things as well . You know , I never realized that it was okay to finish a shift and have an alcohol free drink or to , you know , not get absolutely smashed . It was just the done thing , it was almost automatic . You know you're working , you're drinking . They went hand in hand . So , speaking of those drinks , then you know you had your pint of tonic water with your straw , perhaps even an umbrella if someone was feeling fancy .

Speaker 1 24:02

But I'd love to get your perspective , because obviously you've got a lot of experience within the drinks industry themselves . You've worked alongside some amazing companies , some amazing products . Worked alongside some amazing companies , some amazing products . Um , and , as you say , when you first started along this journey uh , 10 years or so ago , there wasn't much to to choose from . You know , particularly in your neck of the woods . Like you said , seed lip was just launching over here , which I think was 2014 or so , so it hadn't made it across the pond yet . So , in terms of what you're seeing now inside the hospitality venues , how has that

Watching the birth of a culture

Speaker 1 24:41

landscape changed in the last few years ?

Speaker 2 24:44

I am blown away with the change and so I remember I'm going to sound like a dinosaur right now , but I remember back in the early 2000s where cocktails weren't a thing and it was mostly flair bartending . It was mostly about what's outside of the drink , it was mostly about the space and the entertainment value and bands and jukeboxes and cigarette ashtrays and all that kind of stuff . And over the course of maybe , let's say to be fair , let's say three or four years , I watched the entire industry change in front of my eyes Because obviously , being from New York , I got to see it firsthand with Dale DeGroff and Julie Reiner and Audrey Saunders , and then PDT and Employees Only and multiple other bars but it seemed like it happened so quick and multiple other bars . But it seemed like it happened so quick where all of a sudden everyone was using a jigger and everyone was using fresh citrus juice and everyone had a cocktail menu and everyone had a speakeasy at first . But it happened so fast that all of a sudden the culture was shifting really quick and now , looking back at it , it's so normalized that it would be weird if you went to a bar and they didn't have a cocktail menu or they didn't use jiggers or they didn't use fresh lemon juice . It's weird when that happens now , and so , to piggyback on that idea , I feel like we're at that cusp right now where it's happening again , where the culture of the world is sort of changing .

Speaker 2 26:15

Now I think that one was driven by a few bartenders who said these drinks are terrible , we need to make them better , and we're going to show you how I think this movement is being pushed a little bit by the public versus bartenders . I don't think there's . You know , I think of myself , I think of Derek Brown , I think of a few other names that pop into my head fast , and I think of people like Ben Branson who are giving people options and explaining the options . But I think the general public are the one asking for these options now , which I don't think was the same back when Dale DeGroff and Julie and Audrey and those people were making cocktails a thing . People weren't asking for it out of ignorance . They didn't understand . Oh , this is a really good cocktail . Their version of a daiquiri was a strawberry daiquiri in a blender . They had never had a really well-made daiquiri .

Speaker 2 27:13

So I think we're in that same sort of precipice right now where people are saying , especially the younger generation . I'm 44 . So my experience with alcohol as a 20-year-old is very different than the experiences that 20-year-olds are having now . A lot of them don't drink at all and so that group of , let's say , we'll say 20 to 30 right now , they don't have that same relationship with alcohol . In fact , many of them never drank or they don't drink , or if they do , they have one and that's it .

Speaker 2 27:44

So I think they're the driver of this sort of focus that everyone's having on the non-alcoholic space and what . Just like back when the gin explosion happened and when I started bartending , there were five gins . Now there are a thousand , probably more gins out there . Just like that there was a lot of really good stuff and there was also a lot of really bad stuff that came out and bartenders were the gatekeepers to sort of teach people what was good and what should stay on the shelf and what should not stay on the shelf and hopefully eventually die out . And I remember vividly thinking that I could make

What Chris thinks of Seedlip & Co

Speaker 2 28:37

cocktails with this stuff . I don't know how it's made , I don't know what it is , but it's really good . And then over the we'll say , the last two or three years , the explosion of good non-alcoholic options has been really refreshing . You know the pathfinders of the world , the aploses of the world , the rituals , the liars . You know there's a lot of the world , the aploses of the world , the rituals , the liars . You know there's a lot of good products out there now and they're coming faster and faster .

Speaker 2 29:00

But again , I think the issue is that there's a lot of work to be done , just like back with cocktails . There's a lot of work to be done in the space of education for people to understand the value of the non-alcoholic spirit , because a lot of people still think of it as flavored water . I also think that a lot of people don't understand why the pricing is the way it is . So they think it's weird that you would pay the same amount , or just about the same amount , for an alcoholic cocktail as you would a non-alcoholic cocktail . And we can get into the weirdness of that whole argument later . But there's that part of that whole argument later , but there's that part . And then I think there's also the part of understanding what is a good product and what is not a good product , because , just like with the gins of the world when they exploded , I remember I mean I know that there are non-alcoholic products where I'm like oh my God , like this is , this is poison .

Speaker 2 29:52

And the problem is is when you're trying to create a new because this isn't really a trend right , this is going to become normalized , where every bar you go to will have a non-alcoholic

This isn't a trend

Speaker 2 30:04

cocktail options . Options is the key word there . It won't just be you can either have a Pepsi , a club soda or a lemonade . It'll be cocktails , and I think it'll be . We'll get to a point very quickly where every place will have that on their menu .

Speaker 2 30:19

And so there , you can't change culture if people are having bad experiences on a frequent level . And so if the cocktails that these people are trying , if they're saying you know what , I'm open to trying a non-alcoholic cocktail , and then you give them something that sucks , most people don't try a second time . It's like the fool me once kind of attitude . And so it's incumbent upon the bartenders of this world to again be the gatekeepers and to make sure that the stuff that people are trying is like oh my God , this is just as good and there's no alcohol in it . I get it , and that's the job that's on the table right now . So there's multiple platforms of things that have to happen to make this a really lasting change .

Speaker 1 31:05

So let's dive in , then , to some of that educational piece , then , and let's do what your teachers

The good, the bad & the ugly of non-alc spirits

Speaker 1 31:11

and your parents always tell you not to do .

Speaker 1 31:12

And let's look at the bad side first , because you are absolutely right . Just because the the market is exploding , uh , on both sides of the pond and around the world , you know , there are so many uh , non-alcohol out , free , low alcohol drinks being produced at the moment , and it's fantastic , it's so exciting to to be a part of that , and anyone's watching this on youtube can see behind me . This is just a small , small selection of what there is available , but with that comes the good , the bad and the ugly , and that's OK . That's the same as within any industry , right , not everything's going to be a winner . But let's be a little bit brutal here . What makes a bad alcohol-free spirit , and what do we need to be looking for to find something that could be considered quote-unquote good , bearing in mind that obviously everyone's got different palates and tastes , desires and things . But what in your mind are you seeing that needs to pull its socks up , and what should it be reaching for ?

Speaker 2 32:12

Yeah , I think , at the end of the day , flavor is flavor right . And just like there are good restaurants and there are restaurants who don't make really good food , they will always be a place for everyone when it comes to this stuff right , some people are very discerning when it comes to flavor and some people are very forgiving when it comes to flavor , and so I don't want to necessarily say that there's any specific product or any specific area of the non-alcohol world that has to like step up . I don't want to , I don't want to put it like that , but what I do want to say is that , just like , like you said , in every industry there are the ones who excel . There's a really , really big middle pack and then there is the not so great stuff . So I think in the wine world they refer to that as the value stuff .

Speaker 2 32:57

So you know , when it comes to great drinks , there's a rule that I've always learned from way , way back in the day where you can't get something good out of putting in bad ingredients . You know the non-censored version of that is shit in , shit out , right . And so you can't expect your non-alcoholic cocktail or your alcoholic cocktail to be good if the base ingredient isn't high quality . And so when I look at high quality , I look at complexity of flavor , I'm looking at the length of it , looking at the richness in the body of it , the mouthfeel of it , the aromas of it , and so the non-alcoholic spirit , the reason that it needs to happen . And I use Seedlip as an example , because I think Seedlip has really nailed the flavor and the aroma aspect of the non-alcoholic world , but Liars did too . I think that the Pathfinder nailed it too . Aplos is really , really an interesting product that has a lot of flavor and aromas . And so when I think of these brands , I think of brands that , for me , when I put them in a cocktail , they enhance the cocktail . They give me a platform in which to either enhance the existing flavors of that spirit or they give me the ability to enhance the other flavors that are in the cocktail .

Speaker 2 34:17

But one way or another , it creates a beautiful symphony of flavors that takes people on a journey . And that's what a cocktail is supposed

The alcohol-free cocktail experience

Speaker 2 34:24

to be . It's supposed to bring it to your nose , or I guess we start with looking at it . But not alcoholic products , just like alcoholic products , you know , a lot of the times it's not about the look . The cocktail is the look , it's not the product itself . But when you bring it to your nose it should give you multiple aromas . It shouldn't just be one dimensional .

Speaker 2 34:42

And so I look back at the old days of non-alcoholic cocktails , where you would get cranberry juice , pineapple juice , lemon juice swirled up in a glass and then , like you said , put a nice umbrella on it and you bring that to your nose and you don't really smell much , right , you smell fruit juice , that's it . And then , when you take a sip , it should again take you on a journey . It should be multi-complex , it should have a complexity and should have multiple dimensions to it , and it should feel like there's something going on in your mouth . It shouldn't just feel like flavored water . That's an important fact and non-alcoholic products tend to not have as much sugar in them and as much richness in them . So it's incumbent upon bartenders who actually understand how to make balanced cocktails to figure out a way to manipulate the palate into thinking that there's more richness in there . And that can come in multiple ways . That can come from using tea . That can come from using different types of sugar sources in your syrups . It can even be used in using different other ingredients , like vegetables and fruit that may bring on mouthfeel . Pineapple juice is a great example , aquafaba is a great example of things that can kind of make a cocktail more rich and have more body . But all of these things have to be thought out . And then the length of the ingredient is also really important , because that's always been the rule for alcoholic products is the finish and the length shows you quality , and that's the same with wine , and so the non-alcoholic spirit , when you taste it , you should be able to have a nice long experience with it . It shouldn't , the flavor shouldn't just die out fast .

Speaker 2 36:17

So there's a lot of brands that have put in what , in my opinion , way too many ingredients

Where brands go wrong

Speaker 2 36:24

and they use too many bittering agents . Where it goes off kilter and it's overly bitter , it's overly medicinal and it does sort of taste like cough medicine . And so those brands that do that , or the brands of of like , let's say , like a gin alternative or a tequila alternative they try to add things to sort of manipulate the alcoholic burn , so like they'll use cap case and then things like that Like to me those , those are missing the mark , because I don't want my mark , my non-alcoholic margarita , to taste like red hot or like cinnamon kind of flavor afterwards , and I understand the idea behind having that sort of alcoholic burn or that sensation , but I don't know a single person that drinks alcohol for that reason . They don't say , oh man , I love the burn that that tequila just gave me . Like nobody says that reason . They don't say , oh man , I love the burn that that tequila just gave me . Nobody says that . And so the idea behind it makes sense on paper , but I don't think it makes sense when it comes to a cocktail that's going to taste balanced . I can't make you a non-alcoholic margarita with a red hot flavor to it . That doesn't work .

Speaker 2 37:31

And so there's still work to be done . By far there's a lot of work to be done . But when products start to come out or when concepts come out , I'm like , oh my God , this might solve the problem . So , for example , I'm really excited to try Ben Branson's New Silva , because it's a wood concept and

Excited by Sylva & Ben Branson

Speaker 2 37:49

that's something that the non-alcoholic world has not seen yet .

Speaker 2 37:52

We have not seen a product that's focusing on the wood aspect of , for example , like whiskey . There's so much to that bourbon and that rye and that scotch that comes from the wood itself , and so I'm really excited to see what he's doing there because that might solve a huge hole . He seems to be a hole filler and so it's solving a huge hole in the industry that I've noticed and I've said to people . You know , there's reallyfashioned with rituals non-alcoholic whiskey or with Liar's traditional reserve . I can do it , but it doesn't have all of it . I have to manipulate the flavors to get that old-fashioned to taste like an old-fashioned . So I'm excited to see what that one comes out , because I'm like whoa , it's all about wood . That could be a game changer .

Speaker 1 38:53

Absolutely , absolutely and shameless plug here . Keep an eye out on the on the podcast , because he's coming on in a few weeks . Uh , my first question and my only question is going to be what do you mean wood ? How are you doing this ? This because it's fascinating , and you're right . He has this knack for recognizing where there are products that are needed to not just fill a hole because it's a marketing opportunity , but to actually serve a purpose . Right , the bitters that he brought out recently , which I'm not sure if they're available over the season yeah yeah , yeah , because over here we don't have a great selection .

Speaker 1 39:28

Everyone talks about all the bitter , which is fantastic , but it's really hard to get hold of here in the UK . So , yeah , ben's doing some amazing stuff . It's quite clear , chris , you've got such a passion for these drinks and there are so many directions that we could go in this conversation . There's a couple of topics I definitely want to make sure that we hit Mindful of I don't want to take up too much

The lack of education around non-alc spirits

Speaker 1 39:48

of your time and one is around the education piece , because you mentioned a couple of things there that people are perhaps still not quite understanding , and I'm guessing that you're getting a lot of questions from people , perhaps a lot of the same questions . So what is it that you're seeing from people who want to enjoy these drinks that they're not understanding , that you really wish that they would grasp when it comes to non-alcoholic spirits , I would say .

Speaker 2 40:18

The two things that pop into my head as soon as you say that are one , the lack of education for the public , and that is a major problem when it comes to the understanding of what's going on . And the word ignorance always has a negative connotation , right , people think ignorant means you're stupid , you're dumb . Ignorant just means misinformed or uninformed , and the general public cannot be expected to understand why a non-alcoholic cocktail or a non-alcoholic spirit should cost as much as it does if the brands are not being forthcoming into how they make it from start to finish . And I'm not talking about , like , proprietary secrets , I'm just talking about the overall arch of how you make a non-alcoholic spirit and the costs that come into all of that , including the packaging , the labor , everything , the laws , everything , the taxes , anything that could come into it . It's their job to teach people that this is the reason for the price , explain how a non-alcoholic product is made from start to finish . How could I possibly expect the random person that comes into my restaurant to understand why that cocktail is $17 and look down on them for thinking it's just flavored water without any kind of education ? It's the same as if I took a hundred bartenders in a room right now and said explain to me the process of how to make scotch In Isla . I'll be even more specific . In Isla they'll go into the distillation practices . They'll go into peat , they'll go into terroir . They'll tell you every single part of the distillation process . Why were they educated on that ? Because scotch said well , we better educate people on that . And you notice nobody's talking about their diamond dust distillation anymore with vodka , because that whole thing about distillation got explained and people now say oh okay , I understand distillation . That's a marketing ploy . The same with saying you know this , vodka is gluten-free . If you distill a product , it's gluten-free , they're all gluten-free , you know . So again , to use that as a marketing trick is something that people have been educated out of now . So it's incumbent upon the brands to take this role and say we need to educate in general bartenders , managers , servers , and then they can do the public .

Speaker 2 43:00

The Scotch world didn't grab consumers . I mean , yes , they have enthusiast related events and things like that , but overall their mission was to explain to bartenders how Scotch works in industry focused events and then we go out and train people or teach people or educate people into the differences . And the truth is is that bartenders are the ones that move it off the shelf because we're the ones excited to talk about it . So when someone comes

The power of the bartender

Speaker 2 43:24

in and says , hey , I'd love a scotch after dinner , what do you recommend ? I have 20 choices . I'm the one who picks you which one I sell . And that comes from an emotional connection with the brand , through education , through whatever it's . Always there's some sort of emotion for me to talk about it . So it's the same in the non-alcoholic world , where , if I am a bartender and I have six non-alcoholic products behind my bar , god willing , we get to a place where it becomes my choice to talk about which one I feel enthusiastic about .

Speaker 2 43:56

So it's incumbent upon them to train us , teach us about the process , and so we have a better understanding of why those prices are as they are , also understand how to use them really well and not think that you could just plug and play a non-alcoholic for a gin and it's going to be exactly the same . Because it's not . It's not going to have the same mouthfeel . It's not going to have the same mouthfeel , it's not going to have the same acidity , it's not going to have the same tannin level , it's not going to have anything . So it might have flavor , but that's about where it ends . So you have to understand how to create a cocktail , and that's again up to the brands to go out and do that .

Understanding the value of non-alc

Speaker 2 44:39

The other part of it is I think it's important for people to understand the value of non-alcoholic spirits , in that people are not trying to bargain shop right . They're not going out there and saying , hey , I don't drink because I'm trying to save on an $18 cocktail . That's not the reason that people don't drink alcohol . It's not a money saver . I'm sure there are people who are on a budget , but in general people are not making a choice of whether or not to have a drink or not based on budget . They're trying to decide whether to have a drink or not because it contains alcohol or not , and so it's important to understand the value of a cocktail that has the same intention .

Speaker 2 45:14

Aromas , flavors , look , feel and will you said the word earlier elevate my meal or my experience . The difference between having one with alcohol or not having alcohol is such a strange value system because , as I've been doing this and really focusing in on this over the past six months since I launched my company , is that the majority of people are not drinking alcohol for the flavor of it . They're actually drinking alcohol for the effects they get from it , whether it's a calming or sort of , brings out the liveliness in them , takes away the inhibitions , gives them that Dutch courage , whether it's on a date or in a board meeting no , maybe not a board meeting is not a good example , but a corporate event or something like that it gives them courage in some way or it reduces anxiety , it reduces stress . Those are the reasons that people tend to drink alcohol . So you have to give people a , you have to give them the understanding that this is a poison and this isn't a poison . And so if you're going into that restaurant to elevate your meal , the non-alcoholic option if it's made just as well as the , that's a big . If , if it's made just as well as the cocktail brings more value or , I guess , less negatives than the alcoholic one does .

Speaker 2 46:38

And that's where the big mindset shift needs to happen , on the general public's ability to understand that and again , I try to preface this anytime I talk about this that I love the industry I work in and I love people , that I don't have an issue with drinking . I'm not trying to vilify alcohol , I'm not trying to say everyone should be sober . I don't think my path is the general path I think I'm the outlier here but the general , the overall societal view that alcohol has more value than non-alcohol does . When it comes to a cocktail , that idea of , well , this should cost more money because it has alcohol in it , is a strange way of thinking , because you're basically saying this one should cost more money because it has poison in it , which is very , very strange .

Speaker 2 47:29

And again , I think the value there is kind of like cigarettes were 20 , 30 years ago where people said I know what this does to me , but it gives me all of this stuff , so I'll deal with it . It's sort of that same area where people will say I know it's not healthy , I know it's a poison , I know there's now research about cancer and all this stuff , but it still gives me that calming effect , it still allows me to go out and have fun . We need to get to a place where people understand that non-alcoholic drinks can still elevate your meal , can still give you a feeling of inclusivity , can still allow you to cheers with everybody . All of the good stuff without the bad stuff .

Speaker 1 48:07

I think you're completely right . The education is . The reason why I have my platforms is because I want to help people to really get to know , to find , to understand and to enjoy these drinks . And I was a guest on someone else's podcast recently and it was one of the big talking points for them was you know , why do these drinks cost so much money and we do put so much value on alcohol ? One of the biggest eye-openers for me that I find when I speak to people is always the fact that alcohol is actually the cheapest ingredient in your drink and people don't know that and they say and they say oh well , you pay tax on it and and you know it's a higher abv , so it should be more expensive . It's like dude , no , it's the other way around . But you're right . It is that education piece and it is that welcoming people into this world and explaining it to them in a way that they can feel comfortable and confident , that they understand what the drink is , why it's made the way it is , why it costs the way it costs , how to use it . And that does have to come from the brands . It does have to come from because they're the ones doing the work right .

Speaker 1 49:10

You know that people like you and I can wax enthusiastically about it as much as we want , but there's only so much knowledge that we can amass when we're not the ones in there getting our hands dirty , stripping the word or , you know , mixing everything together , and I hope that we'll see more brands being more open . You made an interesting point where you said you know

A call to brands: Teach us!

Speaker 1 49:33

we're not asking for the proprietary secrets . A lot of founders I speak to are cautious about not letting any proprietary secrets out , not worried about anyone sort of finding out about their secret recipes . But I don't think that's what we need to be concerned about . I don't think that's where we are at the moment . They're experimenting with these drinks and trying different things , but without the consumers knowing it and loving it and wanting to try it . Then it's all going to be for nothing if we don't get that welcoming piece right so that people know that they can be part of it all .

Speaker 2 50:12

Yeah , two things pop in there . One is you're familiar with Bombay Sapphire , I'm sure right , bombay Sapphire makes a point of putting all of its botanicals on its bottle . Who ran out and said , oh , let's steal their ideas . That's just not how the world works . There's always going to be copycats and there's always going to be monkey . See , monkey do .

Speaker 2 50:35

But that whole thing about imitation is the best form of flattery . If people like what you're doing , they're going to imitate it in some way , shape or form . So don't tell me that I can't taste liars and say , wow , that's really good . I'm going to do the same thing they're doing and figure out how to do it . So it's not . It's not like we're trying to get like the secret sauce of the , the , the 2% of the production process that makes theirs super special or different or whatever . I'm talking overall , arch . I'm talking about again , from A to Z .

Speaker 2 51:08

How do you make this stuff and what's the cost that go in , what's the timeline that goes into it ? What does it look like from a distillation standpoint ? How do you distill the alcohol out of the alcoholic product , just like I always joke around ? How do you take the caffeine out of out of soda ? You know where does it go , that whole thing ? Like there was a Seinfeld run about that . You know where do you put the caffeine ? Um , so , like again , it's just teach us how the processes work . You know like , for example , seed lip is distilled and then the alcohol is removed ?

Speaker 2 51:40

Liars never touches alcohol . I don't understand the difference , and I am a career bartender and I don't understand the difference . I want someone to teach me the difference so then I can be more , uh , better armed to explain this to other people when they say I don't drink , it's okay . Are you like ? You don't drink for religious purposes ? Because in that theory , you shouldn't have seedlet , or is it ? I don't drink because I'm pregnant ? Normally I drink , and I couldn't care less if it had alcohol that was distilled out . So there's all this important knowledge that comes into this that has to be explained . The other thing that I was thinking about when you were saying that nope , I lost it , it's gone .

Speaker 1 52:22

It'll come back to you , don't worry . Just jump in when it comes back . But you're right , though , because there are so many nuances as well of drinkers who are looking at these drinks . There are those who are maybe like yourself . You know , you have some sort of biological reason why you can't . It might be an allergy or a chemical reaction . It might be a religious thing . It might be a health thing . It might be damn it , I've got to get up early in the morning thing . It might be I've got kids so they don't shut the hell . I've got to deal with them . You know , there could be all sorts of reasons , and different drinks will suit different people for different reasons , and the more that people can understand that and make educated choices and know which , which areas they want to play around with and what they want to check out , I think it can only help to serve the industry as as a whole .

Speaker 1 53:07

Um , I wanted , before I asked you about , a bit more about uh , continuous Bev , which I know is , uh , your puppy , uh . I

Making alcohol-free cocktails at home

Speaker 1 53:15

wondered if you could . I know you work inside restaurants , you . You work within venues . You do a lot of work within the hospitality industry . Anyone who is listening who's now really excited about spirits and is thinking you know what great I'm going to dive in . You know Chris said that you can make old fashions with these drinks . I didn't know that . Know that . Do you have any sort of simple tips for people who are at home who want to get going with trying different alcohol-free spirits or maybe making some cocktails at home ? Where should they start ?

Speaker 2 53:48

Well , that's the beauty of bartending is that there are no mistakes , there is only learning . And so I think about when I started tending bar and the drinks I made . They were terrible . Looking back at them , they were terrible . I thought they were great but they were terrible . They were off balance and sugary and clawing and disgusting . But you learn through experimentation and that's part of the fun of bartending is you get to try drinks and you get to try experimenting with these flavors . So you know , I look at mentors of mine , like Charles Jolie is a friend , but I also think of him as a mentor . He's somebody I look up to in the industry and I remember years and years and years ago when we would teach a lot of Diageo events .

Speaker 2 54:29

He would say you know , just taste , taste and keep tasting , taste products . Because that's the first step is you have to find your basis . So the brands that I'm talking about repeatedly on here are brands that I've tasted and say , wow , this is really good , this inspires me to make a cocktail . Then the second part is , once you decided on your brand or brands that you want to work with , I would say the next thing is try to find

Tip 2: Start with a classic

Speaker 2 54:53

a classic that you can start from , a foundation , and that's even in cocktail , that's even in alcoholic cocktails .

Speaker 2 55:00

One of the more common mistakes I see when I judge or when I train people is that the cocktail doesn't have a foundation of a classic . And I'll say to the bartender , I'll say what is what ? What classic is this coming from ? And they'll like kind of look at me with like big eyes and you can see it that they don't have an answer to that question . And so everything in the world , everything fashion , music , cocktails , I mean you name it has some form of foundation and that it's inspired from , and you can take it far , but it has a classic somewhere in there . And so figure out the classic that you want to manipulate with that non-alcoholic cocktail . That's step two . And then the third thing , which is where people who have expertise come in , will tell you that it's , at that point , just

Tip 3: Tinker & test

Speaker 2 55:45

a tinker and it's so it's .

Speaker 2 55:47

You try . Let's just say , for easy example , you use seed lip garden and you want to do an Eastside cocktail and you taste it and you say , oh , it's really good , but it's lacking , like a richness . Okay , well , now you need to put more sugar in there and that will add a little bit more richness . Then you try it again and you say , well , now I got that mouthfeel . It tastes really good , but now it's sweet . So now you have to add more citrus to it . And then you try it again and you say , oh man , the citrus and the sugar level are there , they're balanced . I got a good mouthfeel , but I kind of lost the spirit . Balanced I got a good mouthfeel , but I kind of lost the spirit . So now you have to add more spirit to it . And so you just keep tinkering and tinkering and tinkering .

Speaker 2 56:24

And the rule for cocktail people who are in like mixology and really focusing on creating cocktails the rule is you only change one thing at a time . It's a very journalistic way of looking at things , because if you change three things at a time . You don't know what change worked and which change didn't . So one change at a time until you finally get it right . And don't get me wrong , I mean sometimes I make non-alcoholic cocktails for menus . It takes me 10 , 15 iterations until I go got it . You know . So you shouldn't . It's like an artist , right , you should never be happy with your second try . It's just you didn't give enough , you didn't try enough versions to know .

Speaker 2 57:01

And I think of musicians . Music is a big part of my life and background . So I think of musicians when they go out on concert and they play a song that they've been playing for 25 years and they're still tinkering with it , they're still trying to make it better . Or they'll say , you know , we're going to try it acoustic tonight , and it's like , because the song changes completely . It's the same thing with cocktails . So that would be my advice is you know , find the product you really think is good and well-made , find a classic to work with and then tinker with it until you get it just right and again you can change it . So maybe that east side , you take the mint out and you put shiso in there to change the feel of it , but at the core it's still an east side and at the core it's still with that spirit , that non-alcoholic spirit you like .

Speaker 1 57:45

Those are fantastic tips and it's a great approach as well , because I often say to people just keep trying . You just got to keep trying . These drinks do mix differently than full alcohol . Don't go home and expect that because you bought a non-algin and you can , you know , drown it in tonic and you're going to be able to taste that . It's going to taste different . But also there are no rules because it's all new , so you can just mix and match and keep going and keep trying until you find what works for you and what you like .

Speaker 1 58:12

And then my next tip is always tell the brand . If you've done something at home and you think it's amazing , take a picture , stick on Instagram , tag the brand , tell your friends and let's get people talking about these drinks and the amazing concoctions that you can make . I mean , some of them might not be amazing , but when they are , go for it . I am conscious that I've taken up lots and lots of your time , but I want to speak to you a little bit about what you're up to

The Continuous Bev Consultancy

Speaker 1 58:43

now , because I know that when we spoke before , you've got some very . You've got your view on where you think this industry is going over the next few years and you have your five-year view on where the non-alcoholic spirits industry is going , and you're combining that with the work that you're doing with your own business . So tell me a little bit about Continuous Bev . What is it and what is it doing for people ?

Speaker 2 59:04

At the core . It's a consulting service for restaurants , hotels , bars , resorts everyone who serves alcohol to understand the importance of inclusivity when it comes to the non-alcohol world as well , just as a restaurant and bar consulting business in general . So I can go into a bar and I can increase your profitability , probably within three or four steps , from understanding how to maximize your reservations and your books , to understanding table flows and turn times , to understanding the value of a cocktail menu and the opportunity

Creating a balanced cocktail menu

Speaker 2 59:51

that a cocktail menu presents from a cost perspective , and understand how to balance a cocktail menu , because we always talk about in the industry , we always talk about a balanced cocktail Few . People talk about a balanced menu where there should be different styles of drinks for different people so that there's something for everyone , and that includes non-alcoholic . So it should be a normal event to go into a bar and have a section for non-alcoholic and it shouldn't just be , like I said earlier , like a soda and a lemonade . It should be cocktails that are well thought out , maybe a wine or two , some beer . It should be inclusive so that whatever you drink , you have options , and I've talked about this a lot and I can't express how important it is to

The cost of NOT having a non-alc offer

Speaker 2 1:00:39

change the mindset around non-alcoholics for a brick and mortar standpoint , in that if I own a restaurant and I have a table of four people and my cocktails , for easy math , are $15 and I have all four of them get a cocktail when they sit down , my table has already brought in $60 . And then if they have a second round it's $120 . If I don't give the people who don't drink an option , if that table same scenario walks in and none of them drink alcohol and they all say I'll just have a water tonight , I've lost out on potentially $120 on that table . Now you multiply that by let's be fair and say , a quarter of the people that come in to your restaurant over the course of a night , that might look like $1,000 . And then you multiply that by 52 weeks a year , it adds up really , really fast . So you know seven grand a week times 50 weeks a year . I mean you know the loss is in the thousands of dollars , not a couple hundred bucks . It's also in the tips of your server's pocket too . Server in a restaurant and four people sit down and they say we're just going to have water .

Speaker 2 1:02:04

I have to be really passionate about what I do to still give that table the same amount of attention that I do the table right next to them that got the $500 bottle of wine . It's just a fact . People are motivated by money , especially in the alcohol industry and the restaurant industry , because the majority of people who work in this industry are transient and they're doing something else and this is not their career choice and this is not their passion . This is how they pay rent . So therefore they're going to look at that table not drinking as secondary and I can't wait to get rid of them . I need another table to come in . So if you have those options for those people and those people are spending the same amount of money as a table that is drinking alcohol , then they're going to get the same intention and the same attention from that server and they're going to have a great experience .

Speaker 2 1:02:50

At the same time , I do events because to me , one of those holes we were talking about Ben understanding holes that needs to get filled in the industry For me . I have such a personal experience of going to events that don't have

Corporate event consulting

Speaker 2 1:03:08

options for me and again , like we started in this conversation , where I'm standing there with my hands in my pockets or holding a pint glass and I don't have another option . So for me , I think of corporate events as a huge hole where people have Christmas parties , happy hours , staff teamwork , building things and they're all related with alcohol . And I don't I can't imagine a scenario where I'd want to have multiple cocktails in front of my boss . I just can't imagine I always laugh because I worked in this industry for so long and I've done so many corporate events that the majority of people at that event order a cocktail when they first arrive and hold onto that thing for dear life and it's all watered down and they don't even drink it anymore , but they're just holding onto it , so they have something in their hands during the event , while there's always one person who's like just pounding them back and I'm always like dude , your boss is like right there , what are you doing ?

Speaker 2 1:04:06

And so there's so many opportunities for corporate events to have more of an inclusivity environment , and it doesn't have to be non-alcoholic , it just should be everything . So my tagline in my company is that everyone deserves a seat at the bar and my goal is to try to create environments whether it's in a brick and mortar or in corporate events that people have an option they can have a full alcoholic cocktail , a low ABV cocktail or a non-alcoholic cocktail . They can do whatever they want without all the stupid questions and they can just enjoy themselves , have something in their hand that they enjoy drinking without having to explain it and still feel included in the toasts and the cheers and the conversations , and not have to get personal or anything like that . So that's the vision , that's the goal .

Speaker 1 1:04:52

Fantastic . It sounds much needed and it sounds like you are the perfect person to be doing this , Chris

Finding Chris

Speaker 1 1:04:57

, so well done for getting that launched . If people want to reach out to you and want to ask for your help , your guidance , they want to know a bit more about what you've been up to . What's the best place for them to find you ?

Speaker 2 1:05:10

On Instagram it's Continuous Bev . And then my website is exactly the same it's continuousbevcom . I'm also on LinkedIn . I'm not on Facebook . I'm proud to say I'm not on Facebook , which makes me really happy , but yeah , so Instagram emails through the website , stuff like that is always easiest .

Speaker 1 1:05:28

Excellent . I will make sure that's all in the show notes , as well as all the brands that you have mentioned throughout this conversation , some of which are available both in the States and in the UK , some only in one or the other , but there's so much great stuff that you've mentioned to choose from To add to that list . It's time for my final question ,

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 1 1:05:50

which I ask everybody who comes on the show . So let's cast our minds forward . I'm not sure what the temperature is where you are . It looks nice and sunny from behind you , but I'm not sure if it's barbecue weather just yet . No , okay , all right . Well , cast your mind forward and imagine it's a nice , hot , sunny summer's day and you are off to a barbecue and you're bringing a few drinks along with you to enjoy . What are some of your favorite ? One or two or three , whatever you like favorite drinks to enjoy in the low , no space at the moment .

Speaker 2 1:06:18

I feel like this is an impossible question for me .

Speaker 1 1:06:21

I'm sorry . I'm sorry .

Speaker 2 1:06:22

You know , it's like asking a chef what their favorite food is . So I'm going to I'll be a little long winded with it , but if I was going to do a cocktail , my first thoughts for a barbecue would be the following products it would be I really , really , really , really love Seedlips Garden . If I'm going to do anything vegetal with that cocktail , I really like Ritual's Rum . There are very few rums for me that really hit the rum mark , and so if I was going to do something like a Dark and Stormy or Daiquiri , that rum is really good from Ritual . Okay , if I wanted something Paloma-esque um , I really like Aplos . Their Arise has a lot of those kind of grapefruity sort of um , weird salinity notes that you get from tequila or from Palomas and things like that .

Speaker 2 1:07:09

So I would go that route if I was going to do something like that . And then if I wanted something to kind of like just sip on and chill , pathfinder Bitters to me is is just an absolutely delicious even on its own , just as a sipper , um , the only thing is , again , like I said , it's a little long winded . If I'm going to a barbecue , I probably want a beer , um , and so so for me , uh , my . My two go-tos have always been athletic run IPA and Peroni double zero , I think , are the two best non-alcoholic lager style beers that I've tasted . I could drink those very happily throughout a night . Guinness 00 is incredible . I think it's one of the best I've ever tasted , but I'm not sure it's barbecue appropriate .

Speaker 1 1:07:54

Might be a bit heavy .

Speaker 2 1:07:55

A little heavy . So this is better for the next couple of weeks in March when St Paddy's Day is rolling around . This is for that . And then there's a really beautiful Prosecco alternative called Prima Pave , and I will be first to admit that I was extremely skeptical when it was brought in front of me and I did not think it was going to be good , and I was blown away with how good this is . And so prima pavé and toast wines to me are the two kind of forefront when I think about really good quality wine options . So there's lots of choices .

Speaker 1 1:08:29

I knew you would come up with a great list , Chris .

Speaker 2 1:08:31

I'm bringing like two backpacks two backpacks and a cooler when I come .

Speaker 1 1:08:35

That's it . You're settling in . You're like I've got everything covered here .

Speaker 2 1:08:39

Yeah .

Speaker 1 1:08:40

No , it's fantastic , isn't it , that you've got so many that you can choose from and to say look , come on , I feel like a beer , I'm going to have . This , I feel a cocktail I'm going to have this , that's it and that's the change .

Speaker 2 1:08:51

That's the change . I think about 10 years ago none of that existed , and now I can literally talk to you about all of the options I have , and that's what's inspiring and exciting for me .

Speaker 1 1:09:04

It is so exciting and I love your excitement . I can feel it coming through the screen . It is palpable . I think you're doing a fantastic job over there , Chris , of really opening up this world to people and letting them all know that they are welcome to have , like you said , a seat at your bar . My version is everyone's welcome to drink at our table . You know it's the same thing . It's like just come on in , pull up a seat , no judgment , you do , you , but when you want to choose to have something that contains none or less alcohol , then look , you've got choices . Like it's not . Like it was for you and I when we were working in the hospital 20 years ago , and it was just you have booze or you go home . Now you've got real choices and they're fantastic .

Speaker 2 1:09:43

For sure .

Speaker 1 1:09:45

Thank you so much for spending some time with me today , Chris . It's been lovely chatting to you .

Speaker 2 1:09:49

The honor has been mine , thank you .