Welcome

Speaker 1 1:14

Hello , hello and welcome to this week's conversation on the Low no Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the low , no and light alcohol revolution . It is a lovely spring morning , or at least it was when I wrote this introduction . It started raining now , but that's okay , because I'm very excited to be speaking to my guest today , because he's a man that always brings a smile to my face . It is the very lovely , very funny and very hard-working Johnny Hughes .

Speaker 1 1:45

Johnny is one half of the co-founding husband and wife couple behind Penthouse Cocktails , which is a at-home cocktail subscription brand that serves both alcohol-free and alcohol-full drinkers and I love that free and alcohol-free drinkers and I love that Johnny is also a brilliant writer and a regular contributor to Low no Drinker magazine . He shared articles with Low no Nation on everything from masculinity in sobriety , drinking alcohol-free drinks at work and whether you can truly appreciate low and no without comparing it to the hard stuff . So today we are chatting about the unique challenges of running a business that serves both alcohol-free and alcohol-full drinkers , doing that as a working couple , making cocktails at home , and just Johnny's general perspective on the low-no drinks industry as he's seen it . So I'm very glad to have him here and welcome Johnny . How are you doing , my lovely ?

Speaker 2 2:37

I'm doing very well . Denise , thank you very much for having me and thank you for the lavish amounts of praise you've heaped upon me . I do hope I can live up to that intro .

Speaker 1 2:49

Yeah , very happy to be here , it's all well deserved .

Speaker 1 2:55

Honestly , your writing in the magazine does always make me chuckle , and I love the fact that you don't hold back For the listeners and watchers at home . I always like to start with a little bit of , I guess , an origin story from my guests , because this world is really fascinating . It's full of really interesting people who are doing something that is serving those who choose to drink differently for whatever reason , for whatever length of time . So , in your own words , starting wherever you'd like to start , what is the journey that's led you to the point of creating penthouse cocktails ?

Johnny's story

Speaker 2 3:28

I quite like the term origin story makes me sound like the joker . There you go . So I stopped drinking in 2019 , so just before lockdown , which was probably a really good thing . My understanding is that a lot of people who were maybe on the edge of going into a darker place with drinking went there in lockdown because there was very little else to do . So good timing . So I stopped drinking .

Speaker 2 4:00

Um , my partner , meg who , who is 50 of penthouse cocktails , uh , didn't , um , because she didn't possess the same unhealthy relationship with alcohol that that I do . But what we wanted to continue doing was having those relaxed nights in making cocktails together , and we did that for years and years . The full boozy stuff . Experimenting with flavours I'm quite a passionate cook , so the combination of flavours and textures cocktails can have textures was something that excited me about cocktails and , yeah , they're a bit of a pain to make and , uh , you've , you've got to set aside some time to do it . You can't really casually drink them . Um . So we were dedicated whole evening to making cocktails .

Speaker 2 4:50

But when I stopped drinking , how could that continue ? So , at point , it was quite fortuitous because the low-no space was starting to move beyond Beck's Blue and that was pretty much it Beck's Blue for years and it was exploding in terms of spirits . We're going to call them spirits , even though they're not really spirits in terms of spirits . We're going to call them spirits even though they're not really spirits . Um , in terms of spirits , which , of course , are the the base and key component of cocktails .

Speaker 2 5:23

So I was forced to come up with different ways to make cocktails that didn't contain alcohol taste not awful , okay . So I came up with a few random recipes and really liked them . I thought , hey , is it actually quite like I can still keep drinking ? Put the little garnish on and everything like that ? Have a bit of fun . The whole ritual of it , uh . So we did that for throughout lockdown and when all the bars closed , a few of them were trying to generate some extra income by doing boxes with pre-bottled cocktails in that were not necessarily the full thing in one bottle , but multiple bottles with a little bit of a garnish , and then they would have Zoom parties .

Speaker 2 6:17

Zoom webinar things where you link them together and then the bartender would explain what is in each spirit , um and how it affects the , the flavor and and it was a nice way to fill a an evening in lockdown and we thought they were pretty good at making cocktails at home and we could do something like this , and the market has been educated as uh , to consume more things online at home . So you take your . I'm sure you've heard of gustoo , hello Fresh . They've been knocking around for years . We thought why don't we do similar but for cocktails ? Take inspiration from those bars who are just like bashing out boxes to keep themselves afloat and use the skills that we've got to make nice , tasty drinks . Let's just give it a go .

Speaker 2 7:16

Penthouse Cocktails the name was inspired by where we lived at the time . We lived in a penthouse and some of our best memories were just being in that penthouse , above the world , making cocktails .

Equality between cocktails

Speaker 2 7:31

And so we launched the business and it might seem like a bit of a challenge to try and create complete equality of cocktails alcohol , full alcohol , and most 90 percent of them are non-alcoholic but have the same cocktail .

Speaker 2 7:54

Try and mirror that experience that we have . Oh , I fancy a chocolate orange spritz . Oh which version , alcoholic or non-alcoholic . It's full of quality between the cocktails , because I was also frustrated by our experiences going out to cocktail bars and restaurants as a sober drinker and there would be a menu this long for fully alcoholic cocktails and then like four heavily bulked out with soda . Yeah , mocktails I really hate that term because it it , it . It makes it sound lesser mock it's not a pleasant word anyway .

Speaker 2 8:34

Um , so complete equality of cocktails . So we thought right , why don't we design cocktails that can not only be sent properly , so you can't send that much fresh stuff , it's got to keep but also not fool the customer , but give the non-alcoholic drinking customer a similar experience to what they would have for the alcoholic . That is my villain origin story . We've been going for a couple of years now and it's not my full-time gig at all . I have a job . The aim is to reach more people , but in the current economic climate people are less likely to reach into their pockets . So the challenge is competing over a limited amount of people's resources with so many companies who are not just cocktails or alcohol , who are all competing for that small amount , smaller amount of disposable income that you have . And in the low alcohol or no alcohol space , that is definitely tougher . I would say .

Speaker 2 9:51

Historically , alcohol consumption has gone up in times of strife and it's not the most stable environment at the moment . So I can only imagine that alcohol consumption is going up because people essentially want to forget . You can't do that with a low or no alcoholic cocktail , but I guess you could . You can . You can have an experience at home and lockdown has trained people to want to stay in , especially when going out is ridiculously expensive . When you're paying 15 quid for a cocktail , why not do something at home ? Still have that similar kind of bar experience bar quality cocktails , but without spending 200 quid on a night out

Alcohol consumption in hard times

Speaker 2 10:45

absolutely , and I think that's a really interesting point actually about um .

Speaker 1 10:49

During times of strife and depression , alcohol consumption generally goes up , but actually , as you mentioned earlier on , during covid , a lot of people , yes , alcohol consumption went up , but then it went down because a lot of people were doing it on a regular basis and they went .

Speaker 1 11:04

Actually , this isn't sustainable for me , like whether or not I'm going to give up completely . I just need to cut back and start drinking less um , and it is tough out there for the industry at the moment . You know , I've spoken to a lot of uh , other founders , lots of other brands , lots of other people that do various things in the low no space , and it is tough out there for the industry at the moment . I've spoken to a lot of other founders , lots of other brands , lots of other people that do various things in the low-no space , and it is tough at the moment , but I think it's still tough within growth . I think we've had some growth and we're having a dip , but we've not gone back down to where it was , say , five years ago , because the interest in services like yours , like mine , like all the drinks that are on the shelf behind me , is definitely growing at a rate of not granted from a small base , but I guess , as Yaz would say , the only way is up .

Speaker 2 12:24

Yep , the only way is up . You're right , and it is from a small base . But I think the people who are interested in that sort of thing tend to be more committed to it rather than being casual . And they've also got less choice

What goes into a Penthouse Cocktail

Speaker 2 12:48

than being casual . Uh , and they've also got less choice . Yeah , there's a . There's a plethora of non-alcoholic spirits , non-alcoholic beers , wines on the market , but nothing compared to the alcoholic space . So they they have less room to maneuver , so they're going to be going back to the same brands over and over again . And they're not cheap . Um , they are the price of of a usual spirit , or even sometimes more . So people will stick to what they know . Oh , I really liked this non-alcoholic gin . I'm going to get another bottle of it because it represents an investment to me .

Speaker 1 13:19

Yeah , speaking of sort of , you mentioned there's a plethora of choices out there . You've been producing or you've been making your cocktails , boss , for a couple of years now . I'd love to get your thoughts on on how you've seen that market change in terms of what is available out there , not only just the growth , because you know that's , that's a given now , but in terms of the quality and the selection and and the choices that lead you to make for what goes into a penthouse box .

Speaker 2 13:49

Absolutely . I'm going to tackle that in a roundabout way , as I have given you everything today . Go for it . It's really challenging to make a non-alcoholic cocktail that is close to the , the , the fully alcoholic version , okay . So take , for example , uh , our cocktail over the rainbow . It's got about five or six different ingredients and it's a true , a true cocktail . It's got loads of stuff in and it's not just your syrups , which of course cross over between full oak , no oak , lovely , but it's also got some liqueurs and spirits in . So it's got limoncello , which is hard to find in a non-alcoholic version but can't be easily replaced by something that tastes like it . You just end up putting more lemon juice in there . It just becomes a sour then . So things more specialist , non-alcoholic stuff like non-alcoholic lemon zero .

Speaker 2 14:56

We found underpins , the non-alcoholic version of that cocktail , um , stuff like uh strikes , stuff like Strikes , not vanilla vodka can stand in for vanilla liqueur , something like skinny Irish cream liqueur you can use instead of Baileys . So you have to be more creative because you can't just go right . Well , this cocktail , the alcoholic version , contains manzana . Third , a , it's a green apple liqueur . You can't just put in apple juice . It's not going to be the same we have to find um , some something that is a one-to-one comparison might not taste exactly the same , of course . Comparison it might not taste exactly the same . Of course it's not going to taste exactly the same . But the expansion in more specialist liqueurs spirits is great for us and we wouldn't be able to function without it . It's not just gin , rum . Gin and rum were around for quite a long time . Non-alcoholic versions great as bases In terms of the growth .

Speaker 2 16:10

Yeah , sure , we have to be careful with uh , because that growth also , um , does not take into account companies who just die , uh . So there was a particular raspberry um lique , non-alcoholic raspberry liqueur that we were using and that company just died . So we had to hunt around for a substitute and that was hard . So , yeah , there's growth , but then they drop off and you've got to find another one and then they drop off . So it feels a little bit more like an industry that very much is growing and failing in some areas , because people try something and it doesn't sell and then they try something else . You go , oh , that sounds delicious , great , and then so you've got to account for that um , especially when it's not just a one-to-one crossover of of syrups and and citrus .

Speaker 2 17:04

You've got to hunt around for the more specialist stuff and often we'll build our drinks around the non-alcoholic version , because we could come up with a million different fantastic recipes for the alcoholic version , because it's all there , it's not going to go away . But if there's no equivalent in the non-alcoholic space , we can't do it . We won't do it . It's got to be complete quality of cocktails . Even the branding is 50 50 .

Speaker 2 17:30

Pink , blue , everything's 50 50 balance yeah , yeah complete choice , where we we even list the the non-alcoholic version first , just to make people aware that this is what we have , because 95 of the sales are , which means there's still 95% more growth in the non-alcoholic versions that we could do . And you tend to find that people who do order the non-alcoholic version keep coming back because it's all they've got . There's no one else out doing the non-alcoholic cocktails and certainly no one who is doing the two together . So if you do have a couple , or if you have a party and one person doesn't drink , they don't feel left out because they can drink it exactly the same as what everyone else is drinking . And in over the course of my ramblings I have forgotten the question that's fine .

Speaker 1 18:22

That's fine because actually you've imparted some very valid thinking points there . But it was a lot around how you're finding the choosing what spirits are going into or ingredients are going into the non-alcoholic

Building the business around non-alc

Speaker 1 18:39

box . But I like what you said about the fact that you are building your cocktails from the non-alcoholic version first and then matching an alcohol-full one , because that makes sense to me , particularly because I have a bar background , so I understand how easy it can be for a talented bartender . You give them some alcohol and a couple of you know mixes to go with it , they can come up with something pretty decent . But actually doing that with alcohol free is really different because it doesn't taste the same and it doesn't mix the same and I find that people are often .

Speaker 1 19:24

I was speaking with Ben Branson , who is the founder , I know you all know of Seedlip he's just launched Silver and he was saying in his episode that he finds it dangerous when brands refer to themselves as a non-alcoholic gin or a non-alcoholic whiskey , because it sets that expectation that that drink should taste exactly the same Are you finding in your communication with people I know it's a smaller part of your business that they're understanding what they should be getting in terms of making and drinking these non-alcoholic cocktails at home positioning the communication around the non-alcoholic stuff is really tricky .

Speaker 2 20:07

And it is a balance because , if you say so , we use instagram primarily . Uh , we are on tiktok , but that's videos primarily and we're just not very on the ball with making videos . But , um , if we post an instagram story every day and if we were to do a run of , say , three non-alcoholic centered posts , then people drop off , um , because we're not a non-alcoholic brand , they're not there for that . We're a cocktail brand and you don't want to be ramming it down their throats because they're not going to like it . They're not there . For if they were following , if we were penthouse mocktails , then okay , that's quite clear what we're about and expect some non-alcoholic content , but we're not that . They're here for the cocktails . So if you , if you come across a little bit preachy , then people don't like that . I don't think people like that in any space , like cocktail space , whatever space . Um , so positioning it as choice choice is how we do it . It comes as a non-alcoholic version or an alcoholic version . That's irrelevant . Here is the cocktail and these are the flavours you're going to get . Do we big up individual spirits of this will taste like gin and you will not know the difference ? No , we don't , because it's just not true .

Speaker 2 21:46

I think you could probably get away with it in some of the larger , more flavourful cocktails , but where they're kind of hinged on one singular spirit . So say , take our Sikora Sour , which is a little riff on a whiskey sour . In a whiskey sour you expect to taste whiskey and you're not going to . With the non-alcoholic version , you're going to taste whiskey and you're not gonna with the . With the non-alcoholic version you're going to taste something nice . But we don't ever claim to blind taste test . Oh , which one's there ? You're gonna know so . So why would you ? Why would you position it like that ?

Speaker 2 22:23

And I totally agree with with ben , if you're , if you're saying that this is a non-alcoholic gin and it doesn't taste like gin , you know well , this is not what I was expecting . Just , I think that's how cocktails lend themselves quite well to non-alcoholic spirits , because in a gin and tonic there's nowhere to hide . You're expecting to taste the gin , but with a cocktail the base spirit is less relevant . Really , when you've got passion , fruit syrup and lemon juice and bitters and everything , I want to taste them . I don't particularly care too much about the base spirit . So mocktails are actually a really , really good way to consume

Taste comparison to full-alcohol

Speaker 2 23:05

it , instead of , say , pouring yourself a double measure of Lyre's American Malt , which is actually great , but I wouldn't just have a glass of 50 mils of that with ice and go , ooh what wonderful whiskey , because it's just not going to . It's not the same . Does that answer the question ?

Speaker 1 23:29

It does . It does , indeed , it does . Do you think that they ever will be the same or that they ever should try to be the same .

Speaker 2 23:37

I think they never will be the same because alcohol is such a unreplicatable not just flavour , but it affects the senses in other ways . I'm not talking about intoxication , but it's got that , it's got that burn . Yeah , you can , you can sort of replicate that , but it's it . It feels more like your . All of your senses are filled with this sort of like gas , like vapors from the alcohol . Yeah , it behaves in a totally different way to what is essentially flavored water , which are what the non-alcoholic spirits are . Um , should they be the same ? Not really , I don't think . I think why can't they be taken on their own merit , as long as you understand their limitations ? And I think what some companies possibly struggle with is positioning it as a direct one to one . We can do it because it kind of is Because it's one part of many , is because it's one part of many . But if you're going around selling a bottle of whiskey , most people's experience of whiskey is to drink neat or possibly in a whiskey sour , and it's not going to provide the same experience .

Speaker 1 24:57

But that's educating the market problem rather than a a product problem yeah , yeah , I think that that's that educating people , that informing them , giving them the information , uh , to man and managing expectations .

Speaker 1 25:16

I think is is really important , because I think when people are new to drinking low and low because the thing that I think a lot of people forget is that most people that are drinking low and no drinks in general are still also drinking full strength drinks they're choosing these for times when they don't want to have that alcohol , and going in with a with a direct comparison is going to mean that the low and no drink is always going to come off worse , because you're not giving it that sort of fair opportunity , as you said in one of your , your articles , to judge it on its own merit . Is this a good drink ? Do I enjoy it ? Does it taste nice ? Is it working for whatever moment I'm I'm trying to achieve ? Um , do you have any suggestions or tips for people when it comes to making cocktails at home

Making cocktails at home

Speaker 1 26:07

with non-alcoholic spirit , so that they can get the most out of it ? Obviously , the first and foremost tip is to get yourself a box of penthouse cocktails , of course no , it's not .

Speaker 2 26:20

Um , okay . So if I had someone new to Lohan know , I would say choose a cocktail that has a lot of other flavours going on . So I was hesitant to bring this up because you were in the hospitality industry and I bet you hate mojitos .

Speaker 1 26:45

From a customer delivery perspective , I bet you hate mojitos from a customer delivery perspective , I've made more than a thousand in a week felt like most of the time .

Speaker 2 26:55

Hideous cocktail , isn't it ? Hideous , horrible thing to make , awful . I love them , something like that . And I don't want to preempt my barbecue drink . I'm not going to mention it again , I'll pick something else , but something like that . You've got a lot of extra flavors , you've got a texture . So you've got texture from the soda , you've got flavor from the mint and you've got a sweet and sour .

Speaker 2 27:22

It's almost irrelevant whether you pick a tequila substitute or a rum substitute or a gin substitute in that , because it will add a little hum at the bottom , but it's not going to be the overriding flavour . But that is true of a normal mojito as well . It's not . Oh , this is a lovely rum drink . You could make it with vodka and it's not going to change that much . So my tip for people making cocktails at home is use different interesting flavours and just don't let the low or no spirit do the heavy lifting , because it can't , it doesn't have the muscle to do that , but let it be part of a whole orchestra of ingredients and they're all singing together and you might have your bass as the non-alcoholic version spirit . When that's true of other fully alcoholic cocktails , don't let it stand on its own . Give it a hand , a sweet and sour hand yeah , yeah , that's that's .

Speaker 1 28:32

That's an interesting point , and I think what I like about talking to you , johnny , is that you're very honest and you , you don't pull the punches , and a lot of people would have said to that . You know these spirits . They do a great job . They're here . If they've got a great purpose , you've got to find the right one . But what you're saying is let's be realistic . These drinks can't quite hold their own weight in terms of being mixed in lots with lots of other strong , heavy , deep flavors . So find things that work with it , and I think that's good . Advice is is to use it in tandem with other things , because , other than Ben Branson's Silver , there aren't even any other producers out there who are specifically making sippable , like non-alcoholic dark spirits or things that they're saying . Have this on their own . They are intended as most full-strength are as well intended to be mixed with something else .

Speaker 1 29:28

You know which is why not many people are just drinking it straight .

Speaker 2 29:32

It elongates the experience as well , because you say you pour yourself a glass of full strength whiskey unless you've had a really bad day . You're not going like that . You are sipping , you might consume it over half an hour because it's quite strong and you'll , you'll gag . If you pour yourself a non-alcoholic whiskey , you can go like that oh , you've got to treat it the same . And also , the mind gets tricked as well . So if you put , uh , a clean tequila in a mojito , yeah , it's not doing a massive amount , but it's doing something . And if you know it's in there , you're going oh , I can really taste that .

Speaker 2 30:22

It tastes a bit tequila , doesn't it ? Does it ? Maybe it does , but it will probably taste a lot more . If you think it will , yeah . So use a little bit of trickery and help the non-alcoholic spirit out . I appreciate that . You think I'm quite honest . I think I'm probably approaching it more from a consumer angle than I am from a hawking , a product angle . I can't imagine any founder of a non-alcoholic cocktail or spirit company is going to come on and go wait , it tastes like much , no that would probably be counterproductive .

Speaker 2 31:01

We are b2c um and they are b2b to see , so they they've kind of got to sell their product , whereas we include it as one of many .

Speaker 1 31:15

Change tactics a little bit here , but still talking about what you're

Socialising and working together as a mixed drinking couple

Speaker 1 31:19

doing with Penthouse . In one of your recent articles for Loner Drinker magazine , which , as I mentioned before , are absolutely brilliantly penned , you talked about going out with your lovely lady wife , who still consumes full strength alcohol , and you've mentioned that that you don't yourself . I'm really interested , first of all because , as much as I love my husband , I don't think I could work with him and have both of us still be alive at the end of the week . I'm fascinated by couples that work together , and especially considering that you are doing something that is so ingrained in who you are as people . Uh , you know you not consuming alcohol at all , working in an industry and with a product that does contain full strength alcohol and then socializing with that as part of the way that you interact together . How do you guys balance all of that from a personal and from a professional um point of view ?

Speaker 2 32:27

it's a really good question , um . Essentially it's a clear delineation of duties . So she is very good at packing the boxes neatly and quickly , whereas I can do it neatly or quickly and that is what she does . Whereas I am good at the bottling side , I do all of the , the graphic side , um , and the , the social media stuff . I'm very ideas , ideas , ideas less about the admin , whereas she does the right .

Speaker 2 33:04

Okay , we're running out of this , this gym , we need to order that more behind the scenes so there isn't an overlap of duties , which can sometimes lead to conflict . If you're both stepping on each other's toes , or you think that something should be done a certain way and the other person thinks otherwise , there's a separation , so we don't really have that . This is also not our full time gig , I think if it were , well , there's a separation , so we don't really have that . This is also not our full-time gig . I think if it were , there could potentially be more conflict , because the aim would be to go full-time and make this our jobs . And then , of course , you add another 200 layers of complexity that can create conflict and we both have to like it . So when we write the cocktails , I'm kind of writing them for both , even though 95% of the sales are the fully alcoholic ones . She's got to like it and I've got to like my version as well , and if one of them is lacking then I'm going to rewrite it and try again .

Speaker 2 34:18

But you've got that different perspective of the customer . Essentially , would two people , one of whom drinks and one of whom doesn't , be able to both enjoy the same thing ? Well , we can test it right here in this kitchen . So it's kind of a unique position to be in . I don't need focus groups or anything like that . We have a ready-made test team based on our own personal preference . Not everyone's going to like every drink we do . We do have a whole spread so that there is going to be something for everyone , be it drinker or non-drinker .

Speaker 2 34:53

Sweet , sour , fr , tall , fat , um , broken , dotted . Uh . It works well at the moment as as just the two of us as a team . I'm sure that there are a myriad ways in which we could come into conflict in our approach , but at the moment , much like a good cocktail , it's balanced . I need reining in a lot of the time because I'm very do this , this , this , let's do this , whereas she's a lot more cautious and that kind of worked well in terms of that push and pull . Uh , so at the moment it's fine .

Speaker 1 35:40

We'll have the next podcast in a year and I'm divorced , no no , no , no , no , no , no , you'll be at the top of your game .

Speaker 1 35:48

I'm sure You've mentioned a couple of times that the non-alc side of the business is the smallest side , so it's only five percent of the business at the moment . Uh , and obviously we've touched on this sort of uh , I guess what's been , uh , what's it being called as awful april , where everything's going up and and everything just is just draining us of money . That aside , because , uh , nothing lasts forever , as I've been promised um , what are your sort of plans and thoughts on how you'll be growing the non-alc side of the business and reaching more people or getting out to more hands , because I think there aren't many . As you mentioned before , I don't know of any other subscription service . I know of other subscription services , but none that do what you do in terms of having both sides available for people , and I think that more people need to know that this uh dual way of drinking is uh de rigueur for

Growing the low/no business

Speaker 1 36:49

for daily life , for everyone . So what are your sort of thoughts and plans on how we can get more people enjoying that kind of approach to penthouse ?

Speaker 2 36:59

so , uh , it's not a subscription service , by the way , it's just buying boxes oh , do you not do a subscription as well ?

Speaker 1 37:05

where did I get that from ?

Speaker 2 37:06

I do apologize but you've said it a few times and I keep meaning to tell you yes no absolutely slap on the wrist for me .

Speaker 1 37:13

I should know ?

Speaker 2 37:14

no , no , not at all . Um , so it's , it's both a strength and a weakness that we treat both fully elk and non-elk as as equals , because if you grow one side of it when there really isn't a side of it grow the business , then one is going to drag the other along regardless . Great , so you've any , you've . You've only got to grow one bit . Um , would we ever launch any specific non-alcoholic products ? Nope , because it's got to have that balance . That is a weakness . You can't then splurge out on , branch out into into a particular segment that you think is a good opportunity , because the alcoholic side's got to come too . So how do I see it growing ? Uh , stuff like this writing for magazine , doing podcasts , um , I don't know if and this could be another weakness if there was some non-alcoholic convention , if we would be all that welcome , because the alcoholic part is 50 of the business and it is integral to it , uh , whereas I think possibly we'd be more welcome at a convention that's fully alcoholic . But oh , by the way , it depends how the industry wants to position themselves , how inclusive they want to be . We're totally inclusive , possibly too much for the non-alcoholic side , but then it depends on the audience . So , like you said , most people who drink non-alcoholic or low are drinking anyway . So I think those kind of people would not at all be bothered by the alcoholic side , whereas if we would I don't know sponsor alcoholics anonymous , um , by the way , uh , if we have a full alcoholic side , uh , that would be a weakness . So I think finding our feet in the market , general expansion , is the plan . Um , it's all very well saying build it and they will come .

Speaker 2 39:25

But at the moment everything , and not just us , everyone is in a bit of a holding pattern . What I have seen um , and not just in the , the non-alcoholic space , but in the cocktail box spaces , that companies do just stop operating . So it's a little bit like at the start of the 20th century with cars there were 400 car manufacturers and then by the end of the 20s there were just like five or six . 20s , there were just like five or six . You need , with any exploding um industry , just oversaturation and then survival of the fittest , and then you just end up with a with a few players in the market , and that's what I think is probably happening with uh , low and no , I'm sure there's some industry experts who would totally disagree with me , but that's just what I'm seeing as a consumer and that's how I approach everything . What would I want to buy ? Well , I'm not going to invest 40 quid in a bottle of something I don't know what tastes like yeah , I think , I think you've got a valid point there , uh , because you mentioned this earlier on .

Speaker 1 40:36

You know that that , whilst it's a growing uh category , that there are lots of brands and producers that fall off of that , that that growth uh spike , um , and I think that's the same . You know that's fair for any , any industry , any , any business you are going to have uh , especially one that is gaining so much popularity so quickly . Uh , and a lot of people are seeing that there's an opportunity here and trying to uh , for a bit of a phrase , take advantage of that opportunity . That not all of it is going to be great . Not everything that comes into this space is going to be a winner . Uh is going to be popular , is going to be enjoyed , and so there will be uh brands , there will be um businesses that that don't uh make it through the cull , I suppose , um , but I think that it is down to , as you say , think about what the consumer wants , and it is quality and its care of consumers needs that is going to win out in the end for money .

Speaker 2 41:38

Yeah , it's less of it . People are going to spend it wiser than they have been , and they can think more carefully about how they use limited resources .

Speaker 1 41:49

So you've got to convince them not to go get the other guy's product and you're right , there is a challenge as well for for a a unique position like

Serving two markets

Speaker 1 42:00

yours , where you are serving both sides , because whilst I think that both sides need to be served , it's hard then to get the right balance of message out there , because I I find that myself so because , as you know , within the magazine or within Lono Drinker , I talk about mid-strength as well and things that do still contain alcohol , and so there will be a lot of people who have come across .

Speaker 1 42:24

I've had people say , oh great , you've got a sober magazine . I'm like it's not a sober magazine , it's a magazine , for people necessarily want to see an article about a 10 gin or about a three percent beer but , at the same time , I want to reach those people who are still drinking , so that they know that they can go . Oh , actually , I can drink less , I can drink differently , and it is hard , isn't it , when you're serving um two markets , almost to try and find the language that speaks to them both .

Speaker 2 43:04

Yeah , there's nuance and in today's tiktok , swipey , swipey , brain rot culture , how do you convey nuance ? Uh , some of these nuances as low alcohol . We had more low alcohol drinks , but we have throttled it back down to one one that just can't be done as fully non-alcoholic , because people don't get it . Uh , I'd spell out for them in our faqs , but , come on , you've lost them by that point . If they're , if they're going oh , it's 1.2 percent , oh no , oh wow can I ?

Speaker 2 43:38

can I drive on that ? Of course you can . It's 100 , it's like 80 mil of liquid with 1.2 percent . Of course you can . But how do you convey that ? Uh , in , in a space that is , every industry is competing for your attention and it's often the simplest messages that will . It is always the simplest messages that will get through . And how do you get that nuance ? I don't think you can . I think it , being there alongside other more simple messages , is possibly the only way forward . Great magazine , by the way .

Speaker 1 44:20

Thank you .

Speaker 2 44:21

Wonderful magazine and it is low . And no , I love low alcohol cocktails . They're the best of both worlds . I'll gladly put a little bit of the special stuff in 10ml or something , because it does bring just more complexity of flavour , it unlocks it . But selling that to someone is a lot , lot harder uh , so , so yeah , you , you're . You've not just got one subset of . If it were called sober magazine , simple .

Speaker 2 44:52

Or if it were called booze hound magazine yeah , yeah right , but it is a whole spectrum of people who are all either cutting down drinking or not drinking at all , for a variety of different reasons . There's a lot to um .

Speaker 2 45:06

You can't please everyone so maybe try , but as a commercial entity you're going to be focusing . The temptation would be to focus on the easiest , quick wins , the low-hanging fruit , to use a horrible corporate term and that is straight non-alcoholic . The temptation must be there . Flip side for us , the temptation is to scrap the non-alcoholic bit all together and just focus entirely on the alcoholic . That'd be a lot easier , could make some fantastic cocktails , but that wouldn't be . That would be inauthentic .

Speaker 2 45:45

Okay , for who we , who we are , who I am yeah I'm sitting there miserably bottling vodka , not able to enjoy any of it , uh , so yeah , yeah , it is a sacrifice and a balance and a great deal of nuance , and I don't claim to have figured it out . Still trying .

Speaker 1 46:08

Aren't we all ? So where then , johnny , let's get people exploring your boxes , uh , which aren't subscriptions , as I said , but perhaps that's something you should consider . Maybe that's why I kept saying it , because I'm thinking , ah , this is what you could do . Who knows ?

Speaker 2 46:28

it's , it's absolutely one of the things , one of the many ideas I have swirling around in my head many , many .

Speaker 1 46:36

It's hard , isn't it when you have , when you're growing a business you have . You're bombarded . I feel like I'm bombarded by my own brain every day with ideas oh I could do this and I could do that , and I should give this a go , and perhaps I could do it like this and those guys did that over there . And then I sit down at my desk and I'm like okay , that was 75 ideas in the space of half an hour . Meanwhile , I've got 108 emails that I need to reply to .

Speaker 1 47:01

Yeah , exactly that yeah , oh my gosh um , so , yeah , so if people want to get a hold of a box , if they want

Where to find Penthouse Cocktails

Speaker 1 47:09

to follow the penthouse cocktails journey . Because you mentioned a couple of times your social media , I know you're quite active , uh , on there . So where do people find out more about you ? Instagram , just type in penthouse cocktails blue and pink logo .

Speaker 2 47:25

Uh , we're on youtube again . Just type in penthouse cocktails , tiktok . Uh , facebook , there you go , you can get facebook , don't we ? There you go , still there . You know it . Type in penthouse cocktails and we'll be there . Um , but the the best way is just go on our on our website , and there's links to all the social media through there . Uh , I like to think it's a . It's an easy to use , intuitive website that clearly displays all the cocktails and tempts people . Uh , but that's penhousecocktailscouk .

Speaker 1 47:58

But we are top page of google , so just type in that and when people go to their your youtube channel as well , they can find you there in one of your spectacular bow ties which , if you listen order , you can't see . Johnny was proudly telling me before we press record there is a real bow tie that he ties himself like a big boy . But what's on your videos on your youtube channel ? What can people find from you there ?

Speaker 2 48:21

they are entirely how to's for our drinks . So , recipe card , I don't know if you can see . Yep , yep . Qr code will take you direct to the YouTube channel . Oh great , there is a marked increase in quality and a marked decrease in my weight over the course of the videos , and they also are shorter and much more consumable . They're under two minutes long by the last 10 videos and they also include outdates , because we are just not YouTubers . They're worth a watch , if nothing else , watching us make fools of ourselves . Yeah , we are YouTube , instagram , tiktok , facebook , and we're also highly responsive . If you message us . It would physically hurt if I didn't respond within two minutes . So if you just want to say hi , do that too .

Speaker 1 49:23

Fantastic . I will make sure that's all linked in the show notes and I do recommend people go over and check out your YouTube videos . It's great that you do these explainers and tutorials about how to make the drinks because I think that when it comes to making drinks at home , uh , it can be quite daunting for some people . You know , make as you you mentioned earlier on . You know it's it's not a quick one and done . You know you've got different ingredients , different bits and pieces , different glassware that you need to consider when it comes to making great drinks . I'll make sure that's all linked thank you very much .

Speaker 2 49:53

We often have . I wished for a penthouse cocktail style box that I can just get two bottles and go , yeah done , rather than faffing around with six different glass bottles . Um , so , even if you use , this as like a sort of a gateway drug to making cocktails at home , then that's fine , too fantastic you have such a way with words , jolly , such a

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 2 50:24

way with words .

Speaker 1 50:25

Um , right , it's time for my barbecue question , which is a question that I ask everybody who comes on the show . Uh , because I truly believe in spreading the uh low no love around the world , wherever you are and whatever you like drinking . It is , as I mentioned , a spring morning and so typically in the UK it's raining , so I need you to cast your mind forward to a summer day when it is nice and hot and sunny and you and your lovely lady wife are off to a barbecue with some friends and you're bringing some low-no drinks along with you to enjoy .

Speaker 2 50:59

As .

Speaker 1 50:59

I mentioned before . Of course you've got a wide plethora of drinks that you can choose from from your cocktail repertoire , but you yourself , when you are just relaxing and enjoying yourself , give me one or two or whatever drinks that you like to enjoy on a hot sunny day . I'm going to give you three .

Speaker 2 51:16

Hit me , love it . Like to enjoy on a hot sunny day . I'm gonna give you three . Hit me , love it . That's all right . A nice spread of them . So I really really like the zero , zero corona . Okay , I think that is . I mean , I can't remember what normal beer tastes like anymore , but that's what I imagine it tastes like , and it is also a very tasty beer in its own right . I like the . I like you can put a little bit of lime in it and stick it in the freezer for half an hour and that's delicious . That is what I would absolutely bring to a barbecue , one of the ones I would . I'm going to mention the mojito again , okay , okay .

Speaker 2 51:54

I like to make it with Clean Co's Clean clean tea , which is a tequila substitute . Okay , I , I like the , I like how , how tequila is , or at least the floral bit of tequila , without the , the burn and regret , um , and I , and I love fresh mint , love fresh mint . So it is a little bit more of a pain to make , but I , I really like them , and you can make them last a little bit longer as well . I think you drink a lot quicker , conversely , when it's non-alcoholic , because it's so drinkable yeah say you were drinking alcoholic beers .

Speaker 2 52:33

you're a bit slow by being number four , whereas with non-alcoholic you just plough through them . So if they're longer you feel like you're having a proper drink . Maybe that's why restaurants bulk out every non-alcoholic drink they have with enormous amounts of soda . And the third one is it's called , and this is one we it's a low one , okay , and this is one we both enjoy .

Speaker 2 53:02

Enjoy . It's called a select fizz , so it uses grapefruit juice . Um , select , which is like a , an aperitif , an alcoholic aperitif , and we would well , you'd usually use something like Prosecco or Champagne , but we use Nozeco , which is an excellent substitute for Prosecco , better than Prosecco , meg thinks , and she's a drinker . Okay , that can be made in bulk , en masse , and it's easy to do , do and even easier to drink . So there's your three and I'll do me . Don't need that many , three or four is fine .

Speaker 1 53:45

We filled with sausage and uh and and um . Yeah , that knows echo . It's so easy to get hold of , isn't it ? Because it's everywhere . Now they ? For me they just kind of came

AF wines taste like s**t

Speaker 1 53:57

out of nowhere and I know you know the whole overnight success thing 10 years in the making , I'm sure , but they are now in all your supermarkets and it is really one of the easiest drinking um mass-produced alcohol-free prosecco's out there . So it's banging .

Speaker 2 54:12

It's really really good . Non-alcoholic wines generally taste like shit , but that is really really nice and I would have a glass of it just as is . You don't need to mix or anything . We do use it in , or we have used it in the past in Christmas boxes , Halloween boxes that call for a top-up or fizz , and you just put Nozeka in there and it's great . It's lovely .

Speaker 1 54:38

So you've not found a non-alcoholic wine yet that's ticking your boxes .

Speaker 2 54:41

Not that interested in the wine .

Speaker 1 54:44

Okay .

Speaker 2 54:44

I like the texture you get from the fizz , so I'd gladly just get a bottle of Nozeko and just plough through that Christmas morning and have done without .

Speaker 1 54:54

Fair enough . Fair enough , johnny , it's been amazing talking to you . We didn't uh get much time to touch on your um articles that you've been submitting for lono drinker magazine for some time now . So I just want , while I've got you here in front of all of lono nation , to say thank you very much , you . Your writing is , um hopefully people can see from our conversation very entertaining .

Speaker 1 55:20

You have a way of just opening up topics really honestly and sharing your unique perspective , which I find really adds character to the magazine , because quite often when you're doing something like this because I try very hard to not make it a sobriety or recovery piece I want to look at different perspectives and different thoughts on things and I like that you don't necessarily come in at everything with rose-tinted spectacles of sobriety . You're tackling some things far more honestly , and I love that . I know that you've got a couple of pieces coming up for us . Things uh far more honestly , and I love that . I know that you've got a couple of pieces coming up for us .

Speaker 1 56:00

You're doing one on glassware um , which people don't recognize is actually quite important when you're talking about enjoying your drinking experience and not just throwing it into a a tin mug yeah , unless it's a julep , and you should , of course . Um , and yeah , you've done some fantastic articles . I will make sure that people know about those ones and where they can go and find them and , like I said , your contact links so they can go and check you out and get hold of a box of Penthouse cocktails , whether they want that with alcohol or without .

Speaker 2 56:32

However they choose , they have the option .

Speaker 1 56:35

Wonderful . Thank you so much for joining me today . Johnny , Thank you so much for having me . It's whizzed by , hasn't it ?

Speaker 2 56:40

It's been a real pleasure . I feel like we could have kept going for another hour Next time .

Speaker 1 56:45

Next time We'll do that for the next one . Sounds good to me .