Meeting Laura Silverman

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello , hello and welcome to this week's conversation on the Low no Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the low , no and light alcohol revolution .

Speaker 1 0:11

Nearly 18 years sober , laura Silverman's LinkedIn profile describes her as the nexus of NA and she is most definitely all about connection . Despite being oceans apart , I had the pleasure of meeting Laura earlier last year whilst we were both on the non-alcohol judging circuit , and she was as lovely in person as she was when she first reached out out the blue to say let's have a meet up for a virtual coffee , and since then I'm very pleased to list her as one of my friends in this space . She is the founder of Zero Proof Nation , a global coming together of low and no brands , and she's also the founder of Booze Free in DC , which is a digital hub of AF knowledge for her hometown . She's got about 16,000 other things that she does as well , and I finally found somebody who is busier than I am , and today we're going to talk about the passion that she has for non-alcoholic beverages and why she's chosen to share that with the world in such a wonderful way . So thank you very much for joining me , laura .

Speaker 1 1:08

Lovely to have you ? How are you doing today ?

Speaker 2 1:10

Oh my gosh , denise , what an intro . I am so warm and fuzzy inside . Thank you so much for having me , and I feel the exact same way about you . I think you are busier than me , though , but I'm just . I'm thrilled to be here , because you know , I have zero proof . Nation , you've got low . No nation . We're separated by an ocean or a pond , as some say , but I feel like with the two of us , we are just . I mean , there's so many amazing people in this industry that I'm also blessed to call friends and have as friends , so we really are part of a movement now , and I know you just asked me how I'm doing . I went right in , I'm doing great , it's .

Speaker 1 1:52

Friday it's .

Speaker 2 1:53

Friday and I'm looking forward to a weekend , and I always remember Maggie Smith from Downton Abbey as the Dowager Countess . She would say what is a weekend ? Because she just every day was a weekend for her . It's become an inside joke with my parents . But yeah , I'm doing well and so excited to be here . Denise , Thank you .

Speaker 1 2:20

Oh well , thank you for

Different worlds, one nation!

Speaker 1 2:21

joining me . It's been a long time in the coming and I'm glad we're getting a chance to have a chat , because you and I both have a passion for the non-alcoholic drinks industry and I like that . We've come together , as you say , from different sides . We both have a nation that we're trying to reach , but it's not just our country . We're globalizing the term .

Speaker 2 2:41

It's a greater nation of peoples who are interested in these drinks and this lifestyle . Yes , absolutely .

Speaker 1 2:50

And I think it's great because between us you and I we come at things from a different angle . We have had a different journey to get to where we are , but we both have the same mission and I think we're a really good example not to toot our own horns of how this world is full of such different people with different stories and different backgrounds , but we can come together and create something amazing . So for those in my audience who haven't yet had the pleasure of coming across the wonderful Laura Silverman and knowing your story

Laura's story: Hospitalised twice by 24

Speaker 1 3:20

, tell us what was the adventure that led you to where you are now with your amazing platforms .

Speaker 2 3:28

I'm going to have to rewind a bit and then fast forward a bit , because we don't have a ton of time and I'm basically zipping through over 20 years of what's in the making . But essentially I got into some heavy drinking in college and I didn't drink at all in high school , as a matter of fact , I really had no interest in it . But I had some undiagnosed mental health things that were going on that I've talked about quite publicly on my own platform . So it's not that I'm embarrassed to say anything , but I had some undiagnosed things that I didn't realize at the time . But when I got to college I was self-medicating . It was fun for a while , though I mean , you know I didn't immediately have a problem and you know I was a college student . I did all the things that the college kids did , but by the end of college it had gotten progressively worse and then after the two , two years after graduation , it got very , very bad , where I got hospitalized for alcohol poisoning twice , um , by the ripe old age of 24 . I mean , I just turned 24 with my second hospitalization and um , and I just I knew I couldn't continue drinking quote unquote safely . You know , now we have all these , this scientific evidence that there really isn't a truly safe amount . I mean it is , it is a drug , but there's so many other drugs out there that you know sugar is is addictive and there's a lot of things .

Speaker 2 5:06

But essentially I knew that I couldn't keep drinking alcohol in any kind of regulated manner . There was no sober curiosity or mindful drinking movement then , and there certainly weren't any non-alcoholic drinks that even if I was interested , that I could latch onto as a potential , that , even if I was interested , that I could latch on to as a potential lifeline . So I couldn't keep drinking . But I also , seeing sort of what I've just described , that there was no real landscape for any kind of alcohol-free or mindful drinking culture . I didn't really see a way that I could have fun without alcohol . Because in 2007 , it was saying it being society , you drink to have fun and if you don't drink you're not fun . That's basically the landscape I was coming into . So it's been my , my mission and I am very loud and proud about my sobriety .

Speaker 2 6:01

So so I got I , I , I sought professional help in 2007 . I knew enough about what I was going through that I had some things that I needed professional help with . I didn't want to think I was an alcoholic and I don't think that I don't subscribe to that kind of language . Um , but I I also didn't want to think in terms of forever , because that just felt like a life sentence and that was just too much for me . Um , I needed to clean things up , so to speak , for now .

Speaker 2 6:33

And for now kept extending and kept extending , and I enjoyed not having hangovers , I enjoyed just being able to have clear memories of what I did or didn't do , because in the beginning I didn't do a lot of things to remember , I just nursed my early sobriety and hung out with my parents a lot . But more and more time passed and I really enjoyed it . You don't have to edit that out , this is pure , laura . I really enjoyed this newfound sense of clearheadedness and calm that I had . Of course , I was still really young and I was still coming into myself , I was still growing up , so I found that I enjoyed not drinking alcohol , but I knew there was a clear gap . I recognized it then and I started to really recognize it , as I was comfortable in my sobriety and was going out a lot more and wanted options when other people were drinking alcohol .

Speaker 2 7:35

But I noticed that even in the beginning , there just wasn't anything worth having . I drank a lot of Diet Coke , a lot of club soda and lime and just a lot of you know fountain drink uh , like you know the fountain gun drinks . It just wasn't fun . And , of course , even if you asked for um , you know club soda with lime and a splash of crayon , they would give it to you in in some , uh , kitty cup . So it's like , immediately you're outed for not having a quote-unquote adult beverage . So all this is to say is that I've had a lot of years , a lot of time , to rally in my own neighborhood , in my own state , but also beyond that , for non-alcoholic options . I certainly , please don't think anyone listening that I'm like claiming to have started a movement Absolutely not . But I do think that I'm one of the people who was there at the very beginning and has certainly helped to advance this movement , because you can't have a movement with one person or two people or three people . It has to really catch . So from 2007 until about 2017 , I was just knocking on a lot of figurative doors telling people I was sober , so that you know they they wouldn't give me any alcohol by mistake and you know making a lot of just basic , basic , basic drinks at home or , you know , asking for basic stuff out in the world At around 2017 is when I started to notice or 2016 , rather , when I started to notice that there were a handful of options .

Speaker 2 9:23

I think I first saw a bottle of seed lip at an anthropology , which I don't know if they have those in the UK , but it's yeah , it's like a big sort of fun clothing store . That's like a concept store . It's very yes , and they've got like a lot of like . They have a beautiful plant section and so the bottles of anthropology I haven't had coffee at everyone . The bottles of seed lip at anthropology would be like , you know , in the plant and botanical section , because it's sort of , you know , is a is a botanical distillate and the first non-alcoholic spirit that I think ever was . Thank you Ben Branson , who I met last year . That was so exciting for me . I visited him in King's Crossing and so there were a handful of beverages . I mean , this was back in the day , 2017 . Athletic Brewing was still a craft beer brewery in Connecticut . No one really knew much about them .

Speaker 2 10:26

I mean , it was just the nascent , nascent time in our , in our sort of alcohol-free womb , so to speak , like we were still . We were still like getting ourselves together before the birth but around 2019 , and and meanwhile I had started an alternative recovery , alternative sobriety blog called the Sobriety Collective , where I wanted to find people like me who were not into a 12-step kind of way of recovering and that had been part of my early sobriety , because it was the only thing that there was . But I found that I really , early on into it , I wanted to just like graduate from that . I wanted to level up my life , I wanted to be social and I didn't want to limit my life to just one tiny part of the world and one tiny community in the world , although it's I guess it's not so tiny , but it felt very . It felt small . It felt small the longer I was in it and I just for me it was . It served a wonderful purpose in the beginning of my journey , and then I was ready for more , but no one was talking about what was on the other side of 12 step , and so I started this community , this blog . It wasn't a program and it it . I never intended it on being one , but I wanted to .

Speaker 2 11:50

I wanted to find people who understood what it was like , who maybe had some kind of a story that brought them to being alcohol free or substance free , and and I didn't want to limit any she hadn't written Sober Curious . Yet . She wrote a book called I think it was like Material Girl Mystical World or vice versa , but she talks a lot about being booze free or drinking less , and so I interviewed her . I interviewed Tawny Lara . I interviewed her , I interviewed Tani Lara , I interviewed Chris Marshall a lot of people in the States , sure , but also there were some folks on the other side of the world . I interviewed some people in Australia , and I wanted to interview people who were proud of their journeys and use their full names . I didn't want to hide behind any kind of cloak and dagger of anonymity . That wasn't my thing , and

First steps to building Zero Proof Nation

Speaker 2 13:10

it laid the groundwork for what would become Zero Proof Nation .

Speaker 2 13:14

Because in 2019 , as a creative with ADHD and after like four years of having this blog , I was ready for the next creative endeavor and I was definitely by then noticing okay , there's more than a handful of non-alcoholic beverages . The pandemic hadn't happened yet , so it wasn't like it was still early days , but I think I could count . You know , maybe brands for two hands rather than one , and I was like you know what I think I want to do . I didn't actively like put this into words , but I was like I think I want to basically do what I did for the sobriety collective but for the non-alcoholic beverage movement , or what was becoming one , and so I launched in fall of 2019 and , aptly , ruby Warrington was my first feature and she shared some of her favorite beverages and it became a platform and is a platform to share stories of people in the space beverages brands , places and still is , and it's expanded so much .

Speaker 2 14:28

But it's kind of hard to wrap all of that up in a tight little , neat bow . It's entirely possible I would have come to the table of mindful drinking or sober curiosity in my 30s , in my early 40s , at some point , if that hadn't been my previous journey , because that's what a lot of my peer group is doing now . They're drinking less and I love that . But I do fully believe that my story and my history led me to where I am today and I'm so grateful that I could as my aunt says , my Aunt Linda says I turn my mess into my message , and I think that's where I am right now , fantastic .

Speaker 1 15:52

Well , no , it's your life . You know it's very hard to condense your life story into just bullet points , isn't it ? And it all adds to where you are now , what you've chosen to do and what drives you so I love . As we mentioned before , this is Zero Proof Nation . And what drives you so I love , as we mentioned before , this is Zero Proof Nation . Your website , which we'll give everybody a link to , is an amazing resource , one of the first resources that I came across , but I was blown away by the fact that you did decide to go global with it . What was it so ? Well , first of all , tell us what we can find on the website , what it does . Obviously , this podcast has a

What is Zero Proof Nation

Speaker 1 16:28

big passion about drinks . What was it that led you to put the map that you have and so much emphasis on the global low and low drinking movement , rather than just your neck of the woods , because it's easy to do where you are ? So why go global ?

Speaker 2 16:45

Well , there's a couple of things to unpack there , and let me just start with a quick overview of what people can expect to find when they go to ZeroProofNationcom . So , like I said before or maybe I didn't actually say what it was when I was interviewing people in the beginning stages but it started out as an Instagram feed and a super tiny beverage directory . There weren't that many categories , so it was just kind of like a few things like beers and wines and spirits , and I think that was about it , and there were still only a handful per category , and it then expanded to a very robust beverage directory . Of course , it's . None of the things that I put out into the world are ever going to be fully comprehensive , because there's constant innovation and it's so exciting to see constant innovation , constant opening up of places . It's just impossible to track as a human in real time . But we do our damnedest , don't we , denise ? We do . There's a lot real time , but we do our damnedest , don't we , denise ? We do , but there's a lot . So it started out as the Instagram where I was interviewing people in the space , like Ruby Warrington , like Chris Marshall and beverage founders .

Speaker 2 18:02

In the very beginning stages I had some beverage founders up my sleeve that I reached out to , really wondering why they started a non-alcoholic beverage company when at the time , it was more profitable to go with alcohol . We've seen the tides turn . We're seeing the tides turn , but it was very unusual to see that , and so I wanted to hear their whys . And everyone had a different why , and there weren't any non-alcoholic bottle shops then to have like meet the makers series and to get to know the brands behind the shelves , and so , um , that sort of leads me to the next thing that you can find on Zero Proof Nation , which is a directory of non-alcoholic bottle shops , which again did not exist when I started the platform . It's a direct uh by-product of the pandemic and what and what came out of that .

Speaker 2 18:48

And that started out as just the states , or just like this one long scrolling thing that included everything . I don't , I don't , I think it was just the states , and then I realized it was . It was such a long scrolling thing I had to divide it into US and the world , and then I would do a little flag emojis , it into US and the world , and then I would do little flag emojis for where in the world , and then it was just too much to just keep scrolling because we know that there are so many bottle shops and bars . And I did the same thing for booze-free bars . When I started it was Sands Bar in Austin , texas , listen Bar as a pop-up in New York City and at the time Redemption Bar in London was an alcohol-free bar . They've expanded to being a full ABV , low ABV , no ABV menu from the last I checked . But those were the three there . So not really a lot for a directory , but you got to start somewhere . And then those directories just kept expanding and expanding and expanding to the point where I said what would this look like if we put all of these logos Cause they were all logos that were clickable and direct directed people to the , to the websites of whatever bottle shops or bars I had on there ? What would it look like if these were pins on a map ? I wanted to visualize it myself . I wanted to see what was out there and in I've been doing this exercise spoiler alert , I'm working on a book proposal and I'll get to that later .

Speaker 2 20:20

But in doing some of the writing exercises about why I wanted to do what I did , I realized that my upbringing as a diplomat's daughter where I grew up all over the world , really informed a lot of how I think about the world and how I see that there's obviously so much beyond just my borders , and I don't even mean my country , but some people never leave the state that they live in . Some people never even live the county that they live in , and it's the same for any part of the world . There are people that just never leave where they're from , and that's okay . But I knew from my upbringing that there was a bigger world out there and I'm interested in cultures , I'm interested in languages and cuisines and what makes people tick of all walks of life . And so , having lived in in what makes people tick of all of all walks of life , and and so , having lived in , I lived in Latin America , peru , nicaragua and El Salvador , so I speak Spanish still somewhat fluently I lived in the States for only four years and then I lived in Egypt for four years and and so I realized you know in hindsight , in retrospect , that the global map really was sort of a tip of the hat to my upbringing .

Speaker 2 21:33

I was always fascinated by maps and atlases and all of that , so it just kind of was a natural next step for me , not even realizing that it was , that it was and that started , I mean , really , for the first year of that map was all my own research , painstaking hours of just finding . I mean , I went through terms and conditions for some of these websites to find , like , where their warehouse was based , like where the shipping regulations , like I wanted to get . I wanted to differentiate this from any other type of Google map that I had seen which just had a pin for a place and it , you know it had the link to the , to the website , but I wanted there to be information . So I have a website , I have an Instagram and I have a blurb per shop , per bar , per whatever is on there that I would write . And then it got to be where .

Speaker 2 22:28

I just needed to crowdsource this . I needed people to submit their own things , I needed people to submit their favorite places . But the other differentiating factor is that most Google Maps depend on physical locations to have any kind of pin in there , because again , you're pulling a Google profile , a Google business profile that has a physical location and I wanted to sort of visualize in the best way that I could where the e-commerce bottle shops were , where the pop-ups and mobile mixologists were . So you know , you've got over on your side of the world . You've got Wise Bartender , who's quite the robust e-commerce platform . There's no physical shop that you can go to not that I know of , but they definitely deserve to be on the map . So , you know , I wanted to have categories that you wouldn't normally find on any kind of map so that it put it , put places physically on the map that had a geographic base , but not necessarily a physical location . And yeah , I mean I think this year certainly I'll reach 200,000 views . I'm at 176 or 177,000 right now and it's been pretty organic . I'm a one woman shop , much like you . I know you have a team that contributes and I've contributed a couple of articles over the years , but you know we still do a ton on our own and , yeah , we'll see what the next steps are .

Speaker 2 24:08

I definitely want it to be more real time . I don't want to build an app , because there are apps that I use that I love like better without . You know , johnny Stevens built something amazing . I know he's not as involved in the app anymore , but he , he's . He's quite the visionary too . And then there's buzz cut um , which is an American app that that has a lot of um , a lot of great information too . So for me it's always been about seeing the map on a bit of a larger screen , so to speak . Um , and then , what else can you find ? I don't even know . Industry news I forgot .

Speaker 1 24:51

There's so much , there's so much and I think you know you've got industry news , you've got books , there's podcasts , there's public .

Speaker 2 24:58

Oh yeah , directories of magazines yeah , magazines and podcasts and directories yeah , sure , yeah , I think you've done something Thank you Correct reason .

Speaker 1 25:04

Yeah , sure , yeah Well , I think you've done something . It's amazing when you think that you did this all by yourself , because there's so much there's . So you know . When you started , yeah , it was quite easy , and now you're right . You know the explosion in online retailers , e-commerce , physical shops , bars , the opening of them , the closing of them , the relocations of some of yes , um and and the new producers . Every week there is new products coming out , which is fantastic , but it's a lot to to . It could be quite overwhelming . Yes , looking at it all um and I think the map is fantastic because people often ask me .

Speaker 1 25:41

One question I get from people a lot is how do I continue to drink low and no , or continue to be sober , curious or mindful when I'm on holiday ? And it's really good for me to be able to send them to a resource that says well , actually you can have a look at this map and it can show you places that you could go to that have venues nearby , that can facilitate the way you want to holiday or vacation .

Speaker 2 26:05

Absolutely In combination with Better Without . I think we touch a lot of the things , because I know that Better Without is started out really as like a hospitality finder , I think , or I think that's what please forgive me , johnny , if you , if you ever hear this , um , I think it was where you can find um brands that were on menus and places and um , that's something that that , uh , is very difficult to to track if you don't have some kind of like API that talks to every single brand store finders , and so that's another differentiating factor . I was like well , johnny does this so well . There are other apps that are doing that so well . What can I do a little differently that plays nicely with others , that plays well and compliments those apps that exist .

Speaker 2 26:58

So I think there are multiple tools people can use when they're on vacation , or when they're in their hometown , or when they just move somewhere , or if they have a friend who's like well , I'm visiting and I don't drink , what can you have for me or where can we go . So , especially with the shops , but the booze-free bar and the booze-free pop-up bar concept , I mean that is huge right now as well , and big props to Millie Gooch on your side of the pond . I love Sober Girl Society . I love everything that she's built . One of my dreams is still to go to a Sober Girl Society event , a Sober Girl Society event . But you know , that's . That's another pop-up thing that is very robust . And if , if there wasn't a category for pop-ups or mobile mixologists , how you know , how might someone who is not a London , a Londoner like , find that out ? So that's another one of my motivations behind some categories that might not normally get typical map love .

Speaker 1 28:04

It's amazing , it really is . Let's talk a little bit about you . Know you've been doing this for a while . You've been . You said beforehand that you're not claiming that you started a

The changing range in non-alc

Speaker 1 28:13

movement , but you've most certainly been integral in the help to grow it , integral in the help to grow it . So you've seen a lot . I know we've spoken before and you have given me a digital tour of the vast amount of drinks that you have in your abode , so you tasted a lot and obviously we met on the judging circuit .

Speaker 2 28:33

So you know , you've tasted .

Speaker 1 28:36

Your opinion is considered when it comes to these drinks . What have you seen in terms of the development over the last few years that excites you in the low-no space and , conversely , what have you seen that you think we need to work a little bit harder on ?

Speaker 2 28:54

Such a great question and when I reflect , you know I'm often seen as a cheerleader of the movement , and I am , and I also have taste buds and not everything . I don't love everything , but I do love a lot and I certainly like even more . So there's a lot of improvement that I've seen for sure , not just within liquids themselves , but within expansion of categories and subcategories , and I think we're at the stage now where you get top shelf , you know mid-range and rail type beverages in the non-alcohol space . You're getting a wider range of quality and a wider range of price points too for people who can afford to splurge on a big , you know beautiful bottle of something , and then for people who want to keep it lower cost . Lower cost doesn't always mean lower quality , but sometimes it can mean that lower quality but sometimes it can mean that . So I think what I've seen , I mean there's just been so much innovation and it's hard to even quantify because , again , like I , I'm sure I wasn't aware of every single brand that existed back in 2019 , but I was only aware of like 10 . And now I think there's in the thousands . There certainly are , if not in the thousands , then approaching there , but yeah , I'm loving brands like Muri , like , uh , murie , um . I think there are a lot of like interesting tea beverages that are that are out there that are quite fascinating and good , as like wine alternatives .

Speaker 2 30:46

I think we've seen a lot of innovation in wine , um non-alcoholic wine over over the years and um , it's , it's easier to do I'm not saying it's easy , but it's easier to do a sparkling wine . Well , because the bubbles can often

Wines Laura loves

Speaker 2 31:01

um , the bubbles can often enhance what some it's always good to me , but what some might not appreciate about a non-alcoholic wine and what bubbles can do . You know , it brings that liquid to life , it gives it some effervescence . So , when it comes to still wines , like still whites , rosés and reds especially , it's been harder for people to get those right and I think that they're really starting to nail still wines and there are a lot of brands out there that are , I think , ahead of the curve in that Um , zeronimo is doing a fantastic job with their , with their wines , and they've got um out of Austria and they've got um , some some like higher price points and some mid price points and um , and they have um , uh , a Rhone Blanc , um , the grapes are like Marsan grapes , so they're originally like French grapes , um , and I never tasted anything like that before and what I enjoyed was that there was like a little bit of a lift to it , even though it wasn't spark , sparkling it was still , but it had almost like a wink of effervescence and I quite enjoyed that .

Speaker 2 32:25

I'm a huge beer fan . I absolutely love craft and a beer and I think it's certainly having a heyday right now . But I mean the biggest thing that is just like exploding everywhere is functional beverages and quote plant based THC beverages and I mean I don't know if it's like that in the UK , but it's just like exploding in the States with functional both like adaptogens , mushrooms , nootropics , all of that . And then there's a lot of like low dose and then maybe higher dose THC beverages . So those are certainly exploding right now . I like prebiotic sodas . I think they're a fun sort of soda alternative and there's a lot of those that are . I mean there's just tons and I think the functional stuff is is growing over here as well .

Speaker 1 33:24

We don't get the the thc stuff , so over over here in the uk it's still a no-no for thc , but we are getting some of the cbd uh yes , okay are getting more popular over here , but they're not as well understood in the uk because the way that our laws are around it haven't relaxed as much as as many states in the US . Yeah , it's become more . There's more education about it on your side , so I'm really intrigued to see how that's going to take over here and how it's going to pick up , because everyone's loving functional and there's a lot of questions and queries and growth , particularly with people who are looking for something that can give them a little bit extra , a little bit of a buzz , but without giving them any of that alcoholic consequences .

Speaker 2 34:07

Right .

Speaker 2 34:08

Well you've got an interesting brand over there , sensha Spirits . Yes , that is doing . I think I tasted a little bit . I'm told that . I tasted a little bit in the . I think I tasted a little bit . I'm told that I tasted a little bit in the in Wafa last year . Okay , um , but that's like that's doing a whole different thing . Uh , that's quite interesting .

Speaker 2 34:26

And also I see behind you you've got Pathfinder , which is one of my favorites and can be considered a functional , uh , functional beverage as well . Um , that's I have faith . Okay , um , that's I have . Okay , I love every . I mean , I don't love everything I love so much , but I have a few . I have a few favorites and I would be totally remiss if I didn't , if I didn't like plug one of my own sort of products

Partnering with All The Bitter

Speaker 2 34:51

collaborations , that is stems out of my just like fandom of this particular brand .

Speaker 2 34:58

But , um , all the Bitter is an alcohol-free bitters company . That is just absolutely fantastic . They started out doing sort of the classic cocktail bitters like Angostura and Orange and Peixodes and those kinds of things , but completely alcohol-free . And then they branched out to do some some more interesting um , limited edition uh flavors and limited edition um sort of um concepts . And then I'm , you know , I I became friends with the founders , ian and Carly , in the very beginning um of the pandemic and , over over time , of just being one of their biggest fans , cause I absolutely love their product , share it with like everyone I can think of , I said , well , what if we did something together ? And what if we did something that could potentially benefit the movement , especially the indie players ? So we spent about a year conceptualizing , designing , tasting and eventually launching the All the Bitter and Zero Proof Nation Cherry Coffee , blast decaf coffee , where it's only available at non-alcoholic bottle shops and on all the bidders website .

Speaker 2 36:23

You won't find it in big box retail , you won't find it on Amazon . As a matter of fact , all the bidder just take , took their products off of Amazon . Um , for a variety of reasons , and I certainly won't speak for them , but I think they were finding that for them , they weren't getting the greatest customer service there . And um , ultimately they were just like , well , we're a non-alcoholic bottle shop now , because they opened up their own shop and tasting room in Chico , california . They said , well , let's , let's practice what we preach , and um , and they took their products off of Amazon .

Speaker 2 36:55

But so this particular uh skew , this particular bitter . You can only find it at non-alcoholic bottle shops and most of them at the independent producers , so it's a way to drive physical traffic into these shops . That's wonderful , and there's a QR code on the back to my map so that people can find a shop near them where they could . I mean , if they already have the bottle , maybe they bought it off of all the bidders website and then they can find a shop near them . Yeah , how do people enjoy it .

Speaker 1 37:31

Then Tell me some some amazing ways that you can use your . Well , let me just keep it simple .

Speaker 2 37:37

Let me just keep it simple because I don't believe I am a mixologist , although I've created a couple of fun things . It's hard to like a coffee soda , so as easy as you want to make it , you can just put a liberal amount of the bitters in club soda or seltzer or in tonic water and I love using the Fever Tree Refreshingly Light tonic . I think it's just perfect that way and I don't think you have to get super fancy . But of course you can do espresso martinis . You can do . You know it plays really well with Pathfinder , any of the Amaros , it goes nicely in . And I think you can get a little creative and add like a splash of citrus as well a splash of citrus as well . I recently had a cold brew shandy at a coffee shop and it was like half cold brew , half lemonade and I couldn't believe how good it was . I was like this doesn't make sense . I'm just curious to try it and it was fantastic . So I would say in that regard to anyone who is listening and wants to play experiment put things together that might not seem to go together . You might find a masterpiece in it , but you also might find that it's like not servable to other humans , and that's the fun of it too . It's like just find something . It might work , it might not work , but there's a lot of .

Speaker 2 39:15

I think this whole movement sort of lends itself nicely to playfulness , community experimentation . We're still in the beginning stages . It feels like , you know , you've been doing this for a while too , denise , and it feels like , wow , we have like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of brands , we've got so many places , we've got so many people , but we're still at the beginning and I think there's still a lot out there that has yet to be discovered and has yet to be . You know , there's another sort of element of hospitality that we're , that we're , I think , scratching the surface on , like cruise lines , airlines , hotels , mini bars , like there's still a lot to be done . Um , so there's , there's , there's more work out there . Um , and I don't mean like paid work , although I would love some paid work but um , I mean just like the people's work of getting these beverages to the hands of the masses . Um , yeah , so that's , that's exciting , and there's , there's definitely still more to do .

Speaker 1 40:19

There is , there is , um . I'm conscious that I know I don't want to take up too much of your time , so I've got two more questions for you . Yes , please . The first and most

Finding Laura & Booze Free in DC

Speaker 1 40:27

important is we've spoken a lot about your site . I know you've mentioned it . You've also got another site , which is your Boost , free in DC .

Speaker 2 40:36

Yeah , it doesn't get much love , it's quite neglected yeah , it doesn't get much love , quite neglected .

Speaker 1 40:43

Well , why don't we rectify that ? If you could tell lono nation where they can go to find out more about all the amazing things that you've been up to and how they can connect with you ?

Speaker 2 40:49

sure . Well , if you ever find yourself wanting to visit washington dc and right now I don't know who would want that Cringe I have this website that Denise mentioned called boozefreeindccom , and it's really a hyperlocal travel guide , a guide for travelers and locals to explore the Washington DC metro area , which includes parts of Virginia , parts of Maryland . I live in Maryland from a non-al . I live in Maryland from a non-alcoholic perspective , from a wellness-based perspective , and I actually did update the site yesterday and I need to . I need to make a post about that because I added new bottle shops that have opened in the DC area and I've added some other bars and places to buy NA products that didn't exist before . So it's great for finding places that serve NA on the menu . It's great for finding where you can buy locally non-alcoholic products .

Speaker 2 41:56

There's some other stuff . There's some interviews with folks that are local , who are booze-free or allies of the movement , and it's still a pretty accurate representation of what's out there , even though , truth be told , it's very due for some more updates . But we have there's a brand new booze booze free gay bar that opened in DC and I think it's the only one in the country right now um that to have a completely alcohol-free gay bar . It's called Spark Social , and , um , we also have binge bar . That's been around for a couple of years .

Speaker 2 42:36

Uh , some bottle shops , so it's . It's a way for people to find what's in their backyard if they live here or if they're traveling for conference or tourism , which people are still doing . They can find non-alcohol that way . And then , yeah , so I'm on Instagram , linkedin , all the things . I think Denise has already if you're listening to this , she's already put links in the , in the captions and in all of the things . But , um , zero Proof Nation and Booze Free in DC are my websites . They , they have their Instagrams . My personal one is that we are sober , um , and I don't post as much on LinkedIn as I used to , but I still , uh , am active-ish on LinkedIn . I love connecting with other brands and tastemakers that way . Yeah , just keep your eyes and ears out for new things . I can't say exactly what or when , but I'm always working on something .

Speaker 1 43:38

We shall watch this space with excitement and anticipation .

Speaker 2 43:42

Well , it might be a while .

Speaker 1 43:45

It's time for my final question . I ask everybody who comes on the show because I believe in spreading the love across the lands for all of the amazing low noah light drinks that are out there and the people who want to enjoy them .

Speaker 1 43:56

So the weather is turning , it's getting warmer , uh , despite any other things that might be going on , people are coming together to spend time with their friends and family and have a great time , and it is barbecue season is coming upon us . So , yes , imagine you're off to a wonderful barbecue with some wonderful friends

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 1 44:14

and you're bringing along some amazing low no drinks to enjoy the day Now , of course , of course you're going to have a bottle of your all the bitters , cherry blast , sure , to make some lovely , lovely , long drinks . But other than your own , what other drinks do you enjoy for a barbecue in the lono space ?

Speaker 2 44:34

when I think of barbecue , I immediately think of beer , and I love , I love na beer . Right now I'm just it's having a movement . I noticed Biro , behind you . I had the pleasure and privilege of tasting some at the Mindful Drinking Fest , which is an annual fest in DC . I love athletic and I love that . You can find them everywhere , so , and they sometimes have some pilot brews that are interesting to try . So if all else fails , I can grab a can of a case of like what's my favorite . I like the Cerveza Athletica and I like their limited pilot brews too , but brands that might not necessarily be everywhere or that people are just discovering .

Speaker 2 45:23

I absolutely love Go Brewing . They're out of Chicago and they've grown quite a lot . They've got national and I don't know if international distribution yet , but they've certainly got national now and they've got some really great things , including sours . They do a lot of sours , so , like raspberry , blueberry , they do IPAs really well . I'm looking at my bar area right now . Oh , yes , there's a brand out of Canada that just sent their sort of newer cans to me . They're one for the road brewing and they have some exquisite NA beers that are low in calories too , so I'm loving them right now . I just had their stout and their Saskaberry blonde . Not together , but knowing me , I would mix everything together . You could give it a try .

Speaker 2 46:23

I'm also a huge spritz girl . I love spritzes and so you know I love sort of like the . You know , direct replacement for like an would make a spritz . For anyone who asked is Wilderton Aperitivo Company's citrus aperitivo and making a citrus spritz out of that , and it's incredible . I actually just reviewed it on my sub stack . Oh , you can find me on sub stack as well . Denise will have the link . I'm enjoying doing some , some reviews every now and then of products that I'm loving . I will tell people products that I don't like , but that's more of . I don't want to . I don't want to like put anyone on blast for things that I don't like . But if I'm , you know , lukewarm about something , something there's good parts . I want to be honest in my reviews .

Speaker 2 47:27

But yeah , you have to be you have to be honest , but thing you know yeah , it's as long as I think .

Speaker 1 47:34

When I think , when people ask , you know , is this good or is this bad ? You're like well , for me personally , I don't like those flavors exactly somebody else might like it .

Speaker 2 47:41

That's exactly it that's exactly it , because we Because we all have unique taste buds and we have different tastes . I know that you and I have talked about , like , some of the things that you're more interested in versus others , and I think there's something for everyone , and some people gravitate towards more sugary things , some people gravitate towards more bitter things , some people like to try a bunch of everything . So there's certainly a lot . I would I would definitely bring more to the barbecue , if there's there's still a minute or two for me to . I love . I think a sparkling wine would do really well at a barbecue . It's nice and refreshing , and I am loving a brand out of the uk called bole bole , bole . Please tell me how to pronounce that . Bole bole . Yeah , it's so interesting in that it's like twice fermented and it it's , and I had it in a really interesting way at mindful drinking fest . It was in a cocktail , so it's like a sparkling wine cocktail , but just a flute of that um , so , so refreshing , that's a great sort of , you know , cheers type , uh , celebratory beverage . Um , that's very , very good . And then I think , if , if I have friends that are watching what they eat , watching what they drink , um , and wanting something super low to no calorie and no sugar .

Speaker 2 49:07

There's a brand called Hoplark over here that is one of the first to sort of pioneer the hop water and hop tea movement and they do a lot of really great pilot brews as well . One of their um pilots right now is like um , a blood orange , um , black decaf black tea . Um , it's , it's really good , and um , and I love hop teas and hop waters . So I think that's a small sample of what I might bring with me . Um , and I just have to say I don't know if everyone agrees or disagrees , but I think stouts can be year round . So fight me on that , but it doesn't just have to be a winter beer , it's . For me it's year round . So but I think for the Go Brewing one , I would bring their grapefruit IPA . It's very summery , it's so good , and I'll make sure to let you know what I mentioned so that you can pop those recs in the in the show notes .

Speaker 1 50:09

Definitely , that's an amazing list . That's it . It's fantastic , and I love that you've covered both sides of the pond sides of the pond there so everybody can try something . Absolutely . I'm really intrigued to find out more about hot waters . I think that they could be coming into a moment soon and they're great . If you're a beer lover but you want to take away the alcohol and you want something really refreshing , then these are .

Speaker 2 50:30

It's a fantastic new category that I think is going to do some really interesting stuff over the next couple yeah , watch that space because hop waters are also having having a moment now and they're so healthy , so so they are they .

Speaker 1 50:42

I like them , laura it has been fantastic speaking to you . You are a ball of energy , your enthusiasm is tangible and I think you've done some amazing work in helping to bring the low-no movement to life to lots of people around the globe and supporting them in their choices to drink less for whatever reason , for whatever length of time . So keep up the amazing work and thank you for joining me today , my lovely .

Speaker 2 51:09

Thank you , denise . I love everything you're doing too , and thank you everyone for listening . I can't wait to connect with you .