Katy's story

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Hello, hello, and welcome to this week's conversation on the mindful drinking and moderation in midlife podcast from Lono Drinker, helping you build a life less intoxicated on your own terms. Today I am in conversation with the lovely Katie Moses. Katie is the founder and MD of CAM Insight, a data-driven research and insight company working to assist the hospitality and food services to better understand consumer, customer, and employee behaviour. In plain English, Katie and the Cam team help restaurants, bars, and other venues to better understand what it is that we want when we go out so that we can have a good time and if they in turn can make a decent living out of it. And of course, we're here today to talk about one of her my favourite reports that they do, which is the Low and No Drinking Differently report that they produce in association with Lucky Saint, who you'll know is the leading alcohol-free beer brand here in the UK. Now, I've been uh blessed and gifted and honoured enough to be able to speak on the CAM stage for the last two years at the conference that accompanies this report. So I know that there are some fantastic insights into the way that we are drinking and how it's changing. And I'm really interested today to get Katie's opinion on the way that our drinking habits are changing, the moderation track that a lot of us seem to be going down, and perhaps even get her to look into her crystal ball and see what she thinks might be coming up in the future for those of us who choose to drink differently. So thank you very much for joining me today, Katie. How are you, my lovely?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Thank you so much for having me. What a pleasure. Um, I'm doing absolutely fine, thank you. I'm I'm currently in France, which is great. So I'm working from here. Um the weather is beautiful, it's summertime. Um, there's lots of drinking in pub and beer and bar gardens and things. So yeah, it's good. I love this time of year.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Oh, well, you picked a good time to go because although it is summertime here, uh it's raining at the moment. Oh, it's been great and grizzly. So I'm glad one of us has got some sunshine. Um, so thank you for joining me. As I said, I always like to start by asking my guests to share a little bit of their background. So start where you want to start, but can you tell us a bit about uh yourself, your journey, and and what Cam Insight does and how that relates to the low-and-no drinking industry as our listeners would know it?

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Sure. Um, big question. So, okay, so um Cam is an A is an agency consultancy that I created about around 11 years ago. Um, and we've kind of gone from strength to strength in the hospitality. We work a little bit in retail as well, but we used to be a lot more in retail. We decided that hospitality was our strength, um, and of course it's fun. Um, you know, it's a little bit sexier than say convenience stores or discounters, etc., although they have their place and they they too are very important to the UK and to Brits and how Brits um drink differently. Um we focus mainly on pubs, bars, restaurants, other sort of leisure places. Um, and the whole idea was we wanted to bring insight into an industry that hadn't traditionally relied on it as much as sort of retail. You know, hospitality tended to be a lot more about gut feel and and you know, where do we think things should be going? How do we think we should be um uh uh impressing customers and what should the customer experience look like from our own point of view? And actually, in the last sort of 10 to 12 years, the hospitality industry has become way more data and insight focused, which of course is music to my ears and to Cam's ears, but also just a good thing for the industry as a whole. Um, so that's what Cam does. My background initially was um wow gosh, what was it? I'm so old I can't remember, Denise. I it was originally um in I suppose recruitment is probably where I came from originally. Um, and then I joined another research agency and then obviously stuffed up Cam as a consultancy. But the whole idea, I think, is just to impart knowledge to the hospitality industry to make sure that we create a better customer experience. I guess that's it in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

That's a good nutshell. That's because that's what we want, right? Everybody wants to go out, and it's such a big part of our culture, and what we do is going to the pub, to the restaurant, going for a Sunday roast, going out to venues for various experiences. It's so important. I I've worked in hospitality for 24 years, and it's not just giving somebody a drink, it's it's how you serve somebody and the experience that they have with you when they're in your venue has a huge impact on their day. And so it's so important that we can help venues to understand how to do that better. Now,

Why 'drinking differently'?

SPEAKER_02 6:02

obviously, uh for this podcast, our focus is on helping venues to understand how they can best serve people who want to drink differently. Um, and I wanted to start by just getting a bit of a general scope on the report itself. Because I know, as I said, there's a lot of data in there. We obviously won't have time to go through everything today, but I want to start at the very beginning because you've not called this um report drinking less or uh a report for how to serve sober drinkers or you know anything along those lines. You've gone for uh drinking differently. Why is that? Why is that important?

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Um there's several reasons really. No, I mean the first the first reason is, and I I should be very clear that the the low and no report is one of a number of reports that we released throughout the year. Our primary focus in the hospitality industry is bespoke research. So operators and suppliers come to us with a question, a hypothesis, a problem, whatever it is, and we we try to help solve, prove, disprove that for them. During our time in doing that, as we're speaking to our clients, we are speaking to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of consumers, um, of employees. Um we we work with both um hospitality operators and also the consumers and everyone that supplies into them. And what we were constantly hearing was that this whole idea of drinking less wasn't really how consumers were seeing it. And actually, when you start to label things, I think you have to be very, very careful. For a start, I think, don't you think it's bizarre that we just say, are you drinking tonight or not? I mean, what does that mean? Am I drinking alcohol? Am I drinking liquid? Am I drinking alcohol? You know, the whole idea that drinking has come to mean drinking alcohol in itself is a bit of a sort of bizarre evolution of the way that Brits, you know, um describe their behaviours. So actually, rather than drinking less, well, that makes me sound like sound like you're all going to be very dehydrated. I think what we should be talking about, how are we drinking differently? How are our behaviours and our attitudes towards drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol changing? And how is the consumer attitude to uh the out-of-home drinking experience changing? And I think that that is where you know we drinking differently is a phrase that we've brought in for this last report with this report that's been happening for five years now. We just realize that we have to evolve in the same way that customer opinion behavior and attitudes are evolving.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Absolutely. Uh, and I think it's it it goes to show, isn't it? If you ask people what they want, that you'll they'll tell you. Yeah, you just have to give them enough space to to consider what it is that they're looking for. Uh and and I like that you know you you went to the consumers and said, you know, what is it that you want information about? And it wasn't about drinking less, uh, it was about drinking differently. And I do like the analogy, you know, uh, you're not drinking tonight. So, well no, I'm not dehydrating, you know, I will still be imbibing some form of liquid. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Exactly. And I think that the more that we start to uh normalize the idea that drinking doesn't necessarily mean alcohol the better. Now, don't get me wrong, I love a glass of wine, and anyone out there that sees me talking about lo and no must kind of uh it's a bit could be a bit tongue in cheek about it because I do love having a drink, but sometimes I don't. And I think that if we can normalize that kind of language, then we can also stop the pressure on people to drink alcohol, but also at the same time not demonize those who are. So, you know, there is a typerope, there is a balance here. Um, and I think that language I've always believed is incredibly important, and that's why it's drinking differently, not drinking less.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I think that's such an important point because there's a lot of talk about, you know, is the stigma gone from drinking low and no, you know, is it cool now to be able to go in and order alcohol-free? But actually, it's just as important that we don't make people feel bad for their choices to drink alcohol. This is a personal journey for everybody, and everyone's reasons will be different, and the way that they approach drinking differently will change on a on a day-to-day basis for some people. Um, so so you're right, you know, I think it's really important that we don't demonize people for making choices that are different from ours for whichever direction they go in.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Um

It's not all about Gen-Z

SPEAKER_02 10:32

let's let's stick on that track then about what is changing. So within the report, there were uh lots of numbers about the way that people are approaching their alcohol intake. Um, but a large part of the report, a lot of the data was around people moderating. Uh uh, and so I'd love to know sort of what you learn about the way people are approaching moderation, uh, if that's a word we're using for it, mindful drinking, flexible drinking. There's so much terminology out there, isn't there? What what did you learn in your latest report and how that compares to the last sort of few years?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

I think what's interesting for me is again, and it comes back to this idea of perception versus reality. You know, there's this perception that the UK alcohol consumption is declining because people are becoming teetotal. Actually, that's not what we're seeing. What we're seeing is people are drinking alcohol um either on fewer occasions, uh, or they were drinking less units of alcohol when they go out, or they are, you know, doing things like bookending and zebra striping, which is obviously some phrases that that we've coined. So, you know, whether that's having a non-alcoholic drink to start with and then a couple of alcoholic drinks and then a non-alcoholic drink at the end, or whether that's switching in between alcoholic and non-alcoholic as well. So I think that the first point I want to make is that there's this misconception that it's all about teetokalers. It it simply isn't. The other misconception is that it's all about Gen Z and the younger generation. That again is also a misconception because if you look at the number of adults who are drinking 15 or more units per week, just in one year that has gone down from 17% to 13%. So we're already seeing this uh sort of this change throughout the generations, throughout the different demographics that we speak to. We know that 49% of the people that we spoke to, so UK adults as part of the Low and No Drinking Differently um report, say that they are trying to reduce their alcohol intake. And that's the interesting thing. That is that phrase, reduce, that word, reduce. It's not necessarily about giving up totally. I

Flexibility & choice

SPEAKER_00 12:48

think moderation as well, you know, there are so many different ways to moderate. Myself, I choose different ways depending on where I am, who I'm with, what I'm doing, what I have to do the next day, etc. You know, moderation can be drinking less alcohol on occasions when people do drink, it can be reducing the days, it can be drinking smaller measures, it could be not drinking at all on certain days, it could be swapping out alcohol for low and no versions, or chewing, choosing lower ABVs. All of those options to moderate are there for us. Um, and I think the the flexibility, you know, if somebody said to me, What's the what's the word that you would use to sum up 2020 to 2025? I would use the word flexibility because I think that we now have this opportunity, you know, since the pandemic, with flexibility to work from home when we want, where people have got more flexibility within their roles, within businesses, we've got flexibility in how we eat and how we drink. And I think that that has been certainly a positive in the last five years. And I do believe that one of the reasons that this that moderation is so um prevalent at the moment is because it's so flexible. There are so many different ways to do it. Whereas if you're just cutting out alcohol, there's only one way to do that. Don't drink, don't drink alcohol. That's the only way to do it. Whereas in moderation, there are six, seven, eight different ways to do that. Um, and also the other point to make is there are six or seven different reasons why people would want to moderate. So when you speak to um uh consumers, they will give you different reasons depending on why they're moderating. Now, for some people it's about health, for some people it's about reputation, they don't want to be seen drunk in front of their colleagues. Um, for some people, it is, well, I've got something important to do the next day. Uh, for some people it's well, I'm actually just all about the well-being. But I would say one of the main reasons is that we now have a really decent range of low and no options. And actually, the customer experience is still key. We still have to, you know, if I'm walking into a pub and you're having a glass of champagne which looks all cold and sparkly and lovely, and I'm having that, which is a glass of tap water, which by the way, 20% of consumers still default to in pubs, bars, and restaurants, that's no good. That's no good for the tills of the pubs, bars and restaurants. It's no good for you, as my friend, because you can see I'm not having a similar experience to you, and it's sure as hell not as good for me. So I think that the fact that we've got all of these options to moderate, we've got all of these options to replace or stand in for alcoholic drinks. I think that that is the most exciting part of this report for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

So, so much gold in what you've just said there, Katie. There's so many points that I'm just sitting here just nodding away, just going, yeah, that's sewing, I just get going, sorry. No, no, it's perfect though, it's perfect, isn't it? Because, you know, things that you say, there are so many different reasons why people are choosing to drink differently. Uh, and there it is moving away from the majority of people choosing this for sobriety or recovery to the majority of people now choosing this they're making a healthful decision for their life for whatever reason, whether it is your physical and mental health, like you say, whether you've got to deal with the kids in the morning or you've got a big meeting or something like that, or you just, you know, you want to enjoy your day without a hangover because you're going somewhere nice. You want to look at the trees and the flowers and enjoy it, whatever it is. There are so many different reasons. Um, and the fact that we are now able to have such a choice to facilitate that is is amazing. Um, I know at the conference you had so many brands, didn't you, that were uh displaying their wares. Um and it's just fascinating to see what we can choose from. So that, like you say, one can have a glass of champagne with alcohol, or you one can have a glass of sparkling wine without alcohol and have the same experience.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah. And I I think that's really important, is that we in the last five years, the low and no category has brought um theatre and excitement into not drinking alcohol. And you don't suddenly feel like the poor relative, for want of a better phrase, because you're not drinking alcohol. And actually, you know, if we do it right, and not all venues are doing it right, but those that are doing it right are seeing a huge uplift in spend as well, because people who would not have drunk alcohol would have had that glass of water and are now having something a bit more interesting, and therefore they're going to stay longer. So even if the friend is drinking that beautiful glass of champagne and I'm drinking a beautiful glass of non-alcoholic sparkling, then actually that that in itself creates a better experience for every single person involved in that experience.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

And what's that number? There's there's there's a number that you you quoted uh about how much money is being left on the table by venues. And I'd like you to show this one because it makes people sort of just stop and gasp at how much our pubs are closing on a regular basis, sadly. You know, just because you don't drink alcohol doesn't mean you don't want to go to a pub and have a Sunday roast and have a nice experience. Um, how much money are our pubs losing?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Well, if you think that of the people who aren't drinking in a pub bar restaurant and drinking alcohol in a pub bar restaurant, um 20% of those are defaulting to tap water. I believe that the number, and I'm really, really worried about the fact that I don't know this number now, is it 800 million? 800 million. Of course you know your numbers. Of course you do. Um that would have been really embarrassing if I hadn't known that, wouldn't it? Um yeah, but you know, that's a that's a shitload of money. It really is. For an industry that is already sort of under fire from every single angle and you know is having to make the most of every inch of space, every minute that they're open, every customer that walks through the door. Um, and I think that if you look at what that means for the industry, that's a game changer. And that doesn't even take into consideration, therefore, those customers are happier, therefore they might stay for dinner rather than just come for a drink. You know, it there's so much more around that.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

But 800 million pounds, yeah, that's a lot a lot of money for an industry that's really struggling. Um, I'd like to take it back to uh you mentioned before that you know, everyone talks about Gen Z and says that Gen Z are the ones

Welcome to the over 55s

SPEAKER_02 19:38

that are leading this. Now, uh obviously, this is the mindful drinking and moderation in midlife podcast. And I am right there with you, shouting from the rooftops that they are not the only ones who are drinking this way. They're doing a great job. They talk about it more, you know, they're they're more likely to be on your socials and you know, showing pictures of their lovely uh drinks and times out. But you notice a change this year, didn't you, in a certain uh age group that previously wasn't really buying into the lono revolution? What did you find there?

SPEAKER_00 20:10

I think it's very interesting. I'm I'm constantly, as a researcher, I'm constantly saying to people, can we not just judge people by this, these sort of narrow demographics? Because obviously, within any demographic, there is a an absolute, you know, a spectrum of how people are thinking uh and behaving and what their attitudes are. But what we've seen this year um is that there are more people who are drinking less alcohol in older generations. And and this, I mean, if you think that 76% of UK adults who drink alcohol have said that they are actively employing tactics to reduce how much alcohol they drink. And I think this comes back to the moderation thing because the older generation tend to enjoy going out and having a drink because it's what was expected. When I certainly, I mean, when I was at university, you didn't go out unless you were going to get absolutely pie-eyed. You know, that that was what it was, and and you were likely to end up in a gutter outside Mr. Cod's in Reading, so I hear. Okay. Having had a great night out, but we didn't have social media back then. We didn't have you know all that. So so unfortunately, the people that are sort of used to say midlife, which I've now realized actually is me. Welcome, welcome. Thank you, thank you, please. I would say I'm pleased to be here, but um so you know that we were conditioned that that was how you socialized, and so that from sort of the age of 45 up to up to sort of 70, 80, whatever it is, you know, those people have always been well generally been heavy, heavy drinkers. But actually, that's simply not the case anymore because and it's because of this idea of moderating, it's this idea of I can still go and have a lovely time, um, but actually I don't need to drink alcohol to excess. So I think the point is that it's no longer about having to say yes or no, it's actually about having a choice, it's about no longer having to say yes at all times. And the older generation are just way more comfortable with that way of moderation. Um, the other point to make as well is that the well-being, the idea that we need to look after ourselves, if you look at the older generation, that tends to be the reason they give for their idea of moderating their alcohol intake. It's very much about right, you know, the knees aren't working quite as well as they used to. I possibly need to look at what's going on inside my body and I need to be a little bit more careful. But that's not to say that people are not drinking alcohol. Um, I just think that the pressure to say yes is there a little bit less than it used to be for that older generation.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

You're absolutely right. You know, we're not we're not as invincible. Well, we're we're equally not as invincible, but we've realized now that we're not as invincible as we thought we were when we were in our 20s, and you go out on wild nights that that lasted all weekend and did all sorts of crazy shenanigans outside Mr. Cods or any other chicken. We all had our own Mr. Codes. We all had um, yeah, absolutely. And I and I loved in the report that it said that the over 55s were now um joining the the younger cohorts in recognizing that they can make these these choices. And and actually, there's a lot more people I'm finding who so I'm 46 myself, and there are people in my age group, my my friends, you know, at the school run that you speak to are like, actually, do you know what? I I want to drink a bit less. I don't necessarily say that I want to go tea top people, but I want to drink a bit less because it takes me longer to get over it, or I've got kids to deal with, or I've got kids and aging parents and a meeting to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

And it's taking me longer to get over it.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

And it's taking me longer to get over it. Yeah. Um, but I I I think it's interesting for that the over 55s are now um considering this more because it is a bigger change, you know, that the longer you've been set in your ways, the more the more you have to change. And they're looking for different things to to drink. And I think that I wonder if that the over 55 change coincides with the fact that there is a bigger range now, because they are looking for things that might be more reminiscent of what they used to drink, because you don't necessarily want to, you know, miss, feel like you're missing out, quote unquote, if you have your favourite pint or your favorite, you know, cocktail or spirit or whatever it is that you you used to drink. And I think there must be some sort of correlation between those two.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah. Oh, oh, there absolutely is. And I mean, actually, there's a correlation across all the demographics of the fact that as the range of available low and no drinks has increased and as the quality more to the point has increased, then we are seeing more people participate in the category. Um, and we're seeing more people talk about it. If you go on social media, you're seeing a lot more low and no because you know the servers got better. If you're looking at, say, low and no cocktails, for example, you know, you've got that idea that actually I can still post this on Instagram or if you're in that older age group, Facebook. Um, but you know, it's it is this idea that that I can still share my experience with other people, I can share it online, and you know, I'm I'm happy with what there is to what there is out there. I think that the where we need to be careful is that the that venues, the operators understand that variety really is the spice of life, and just having one alcoholic, one low or no option, you know, in a in a fridge at the bottom where you have to kind of peer over the bar to see it, it's not good enough these days. So I think that the more we can increase customer and consumer um satisfaction with range, with quality, with visibility, you know, can I can I actually see it when I walk in? What about the team members? Do the team members know what to recommend to me? Um, and I think that the more we can do that, the more all demographics are going to get engaged, and especially that older demographic, because they really need to be educated in this world of low and no. It's not something they're used to. They're used to walking in and saying, Can I please have a glass of fizzy pop? You know, and so I think the more that this is coming out as a really bona fide individual separate category, the more that older generation will get involved and engage with it.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

And and you mentioned uh beforehand that you know we we spoke about your health being a bigger concern as you as you get older, you know, you maybe your knees hurt a little bit or your back hurts

The Health Halo

SPEAKER_02 26:31

a little bit, all those things that you've got to look forward to, kids. Um in the report, you talk about the health halo of uh low and no drinks, uh, but that you feel like it's it's fragile. Tell me a little bit more about that. What is a health halo and why is it fragile?

SPEAKER_00 26:51

So the health halo is the idea that because there's no alcohol in it, it's healthy for you. And obviously, we know that that's not necessarily the case. We know that there's no alcohol in a in a full, fat, fizzy pop, and we also know that's not good for you. So I think that the health halo relies a little bit too much sometimes just on that idea that there is no alcohol in the drink. Um, and we have to be careful. There are so many amazing producers out there, by the way, so many, um, who have created low and no options that are also functional. So that you know, that also have um magnesium in it for sleep, or whether it's um something for ginseng for energy, you know, whatever it might be, these are fantastic, but we've still got to be very careful that we're not uh giving up one vice and bringing in another. Um, and I think that it it is very fragile. The halo above low and no for anything is quite fragile because we get a lot of a lot of customers and consumers that say to us, yeah, but well, if it doesn't have alcohol in it, why am I paying the same amount? And they don't realise that the process of creating the drink is as in-depth uh with a with with with a lot of low and no as creating a drink with alcohol in it. So it's incredibly important that we aren't just relying on the fact that it has no alcohol to be the USP. It's still got to be something that uh either adds or certainly doesn't take away from the health and well-being focus that the consumer has. We've got to make sure that it tastes great, we've got to make sure that it can be served great, the packaging still needs to look good, the branding still needs to be lovely. Essentially, when you take away the alcohol, you almost have to work a bit harder on those other areas to make sure that it still ticks consumer boxes. So I think that that's just where we've got to be careful that just because something doesn't have alcohol in it doesn't mean it's healthy, doesn't mean it's attractive to consumers. As I say, unfortunately, you take something away and you've got to work a little bit harder with every other area.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Absolutely. And also I think health isn't all the only reason that people are in this space. Uh, and when I go out, you know, I was out with some friends on the weekend, uh, and I wasn't drinking full strength alcohol. But at no point when I went to the bar to ask them what options do they have, did I say, what have you got that's healthy? You know, that's not what you do. You still want a drink that tastes great, that feels like it's appropriate for the situation that you're in. You know, they're drinking pints, I want to have a beer, you know, they're drinking wines, I want to have a glass of wine. I'm not necessarily going to the pub to go and say, right, this is where I'm getting my health kick from. Now, yes, I think some elements of health considerations are really important. We do need to make sure that we're not making people unwell by giving them drinks that are laden with sugar and and and man-made uh ingredients. Yeah, but you're right, it's about so much more than that. You know, it's about the experience, about the taste, the flavor, the depth, the complexity, and giving us something that feels real. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

And I think I think that that the important thing for me is, you know, the if you look at some of the big um soft drinks brands, I won't name any because I don't want to do that. But um, if you look at some of the soft drinks brands, they, you know, whether you like them or not, the effort that they put into making the consumer happy with the product is second to none. You know, they're known for it. It's what the soft drinks brands do. The amount of research and insight that that they commission, the the conversations they have with with um consumers, now, whether that is about taste, mouthfeel, uh, branding, uh, you know, you know, do you associate with the brand? Do you accept that the brand is something that that is of interest to you? You know, all of these things are still incredibly important. And I think that five years ago, would I have been able to say that there were a lot of good um examples of that in low and no? Probably not, to be perfectly honest. Could I now, I could point you towards 10 or 15 brands that I think are doing exactly that. They're focusing on the the big picture of low and no, the big picture of the consumer experience. Um, and I think that the more that we continue to do that, the more people aren't going to buy that or or or ask for that um tepid glass of of tap water, and the more that people are going to interact with the category and actually enjoy it as well. Because you don't want, you know, if if if we're going out and Denise, you're having a glass of um lovely cold glass of crisp white wine, and I'm having this. Yeah, am I likely to want to go out with you the next time you say, Let's go out for a drink? No, I want I want to be treated the same as you, and I think you know, we are doing that now with. Consumers, we are we are respecting the fact that they might be making decisions to drink differently, and we are facilitating that. And I'm not sure we were doing that five years ago.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Um, a lot of that facilitation comes with um some new language. So um I wanted to speak to you briefly

The language of moderation

SPEAKER_02 31:59

about some of the language that that we use because you guys have done a fantastic job of helping people to put a an understanding to what they're doing with terms that you've you mentioned briefly before. So, you know, you've coined a lot of phrases and they've really taken off in the zeitgey. So it's very impressive the way that you've done that. But you know, I remember uh hearing you talking about zebra striping a couple of years ago at the conference, and then within weeks it was absolutely everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Oh, Denise, it was not it not only was it everywhere, but we were getting phone calls from GQ, Vogue, um, BBC News, Sky News. We were in every single national newspaper. And I mean, it got to the point where even my dad, who doesn't really understand what I do for a living, was caught sort of calling me, going, I keep seeing Cam coming up places like, what is this about? I was like, Don't worry about it, Dad. My dad likes a beer. So you probably won't understand it. But you know, the point is that yes, those phrases have now become exactly that. They're part of sort of common parlance, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 32:56

And it's it's it's it's amazing that that people have I think it just goes to show that people wanted something to hold on to that that they could recognize and that they could use to communicate how they were thinking and feeling about things. So so you had zebra striping, which as you mentioned, was uh alternating between alcohol full and alcohol free throughout an evening. And then there's bookending, uh, and that is starting and ending your evening with uh an alcohol-free beverage. Um, and then we've also got coasting as well, which is the the the latest term to come out. Which one is what what does coasting mean?

SPEAKER_00 33:29

So, coasting is when you're looking more at mid-strength. So rather than going, you know, 0.5 or going for full strength, you're looking at mid-strength. So actually, the likelihood is, you know, depending on how many you have, you're still going to be on a much lower level of intoxication than you are if you're going for full strength. Um, but maybe possibly if the mid-strength you're still getting a bit of a buzz. And I think that I I mean it's so interesting, isn't it? Because we have to put words to things as uh as consumers, as researchers, just as human beings. As people, yeah. Yeah, we feel more comfortable if there's a phrase to align with something. But I think also, and this is I don't this is not an effect that we expected when when those phrases were coined, but I do think that it makes it easier for the brand owners and also for operators to understand consumer behaviour a little bit more. We don't need to pigeonhole it, and we know that some people sit in between those different um those different phrases, but actually to be able to say, well, actually, I want to create a drink that makes people who are coasting happy or people who are bookending happy, or I want to create an experience that makes those different people happy if you're an operator. I think it just helps to have a slight sort of definition of what the consumer is doing and therefore how we um attract them or how we increase their satisfaction with experience. So listen, I'm not one for labels, I don't think job titles should exist. Um, you know, I'm I'm a bit of a sort of uh renegade in in areas like that, but if it helps us to create a better consumer experience, then I'm all for it.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

I think that's the balance. I think that a lot in in this industry I find that we there are sometimes I find myself in conversations where we're talking about the minutiae of labels or names or details. And I wonder who is this conversation helping? Is this serving the consumer, the drinker, the customer, or is this serving the industry so that we know how to label things and categorize them? Uh and so I think that it's good that we have these terms that people can uh associate with that that we can use them as vehicles to educate and to communicate to people. Um I think if I was to make a prediction, I think that in a few years' time these terms are gonna be less and less used. I think that people are just going to become more comfortable with it. And I think that's gonna be a sign of their success. Yeah. When we no longer need to say, oh yeah, I'm zebra striping tonight, or I'm I'm going out, I'm gonna be bookending this evening. When we get to the point where we don't need those terms, then we know we've we've reached that a level of success where everybody can just feel comfortable doing what they're doing without having to justify or explain it at all.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

And I think that that that word that you just used about being comfortable, I think that's incredibly important because you know, back in the olden days when when we weren't in midlife, Denise, when we probably were younger. Way back when. Way back when, yeah, exactly. You know, it it felt like if you weren't drinking, you weren't really participating in the night out, if you weren't drinking alcohol, sorry, you know. But nowadays, you know, 56% of the people we spoke to as part of our low and no drinking differently um report said that there is less stigma now around not drinking alcohol when going out than there used to be. So we know that that that that that low and no is playing a part in that, but I think you're absolutely right. I think having the labels to start with helps people to understand something that possibly wasn't a consideration for big brands before. Maybe it wasn't a consideration um for startups, you know. What maybe I'll launch a low and no product. But actually, the labels are helping people to understand the behaviors of customers, of consumers, and then once we understand those behaviours, you're right, they will kind of dissipate somewhat. Um, I believe. I believe you're totally agree with you. Um, and we will start to just have this drinking differently and this flexibility attitude towards um what we imbibe.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

It's all about the flexibility. You're completely right. I think I think that is the key. It's just that flexibility of life uh for whatever season you're in to serve you best at that moment. Um, there are so many amazing, fascinating uh facts inside the the report. Obviously, we don't have time to go through all

Where To Find The Report

SPEAKER_02 38:01

of them here. Thank you for sharing the ones that you did. For those who might want to uh dive in a little bit deeper and get their hands on the report or speak to you a bit more, where do they go to purchase a copy and how do they get in touch with you and the cam team? And then I will ask you my final barbecue question.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Okay, um, so you can go to caminsight.com. Um, and if you click on Knowledge Hub, the Knowledge Hub is our um free-to-use um sort of hub of all the insight that Cam does, not the bespoke stuff, obviously, but all of the reports that we run throughout the year. So you've got drinking differently on there, you've got Gen Z, you've got Golden Years, which is the older generation, we're not quite there yet. Um, you know, you've got all these reports on there. Um, and then you can become a member um a triple A, so Access All Areas member, and you'll get the full reports on there, whereas you'll get you'll get some of the um sort of summaries on the general low and no, uh on the general knowledge hub for for low and no. If you want to get in touch with us, you can drop me an email. I'm Katie K A T Y at CamInsight.com. Um, or you can also use the contact form on our website, uh, a website of caminsight.com.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Fantastic. I will make sure that's all in the show notes for everybody wherever you are finding this, whether it's on uh YouTube or on your audio platform. Uh I definitely recommend that people go and check out the the a lot of people um say that they really enjoy the uh the stats, the data that I share on my platforms. Um I always say so that's great. They're not mine, they're all from camps.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

You can't get them through us, come and speak to us.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

They're all from camps. I go directly to the source because um your insights are fantastic. And I love that you are helping an industry that uh I absolutely love. You know, I've worked in hospitality for 24 years, and I think it is uh a wonderful space, it is uh an essential part of our culture, uh, and that we need to do everything we can do to support these venues to make sure that they continue to maintain a hub for communities of all sorts. Yeah. Um, now before I let you go, it's time for my final question that I ask everybody who comes on the show because I believe in spreading the low-no love

The BBQ-Q

SPEAKER_02 40:09

everywhere we are. Yes. So uh it is nice and sunny, you said, where you are in France. So let's fantastic. Let's pretend you're off to a barbecue this afternoon and you're bringing some drinks along to enjoy with you. What drinks in the low-no or light alcohol space would you like to enjoy on a sunny barbecue afternoon?

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Ooh. Um, okay, so I so personally I've been getting into trip quite a lot recently. Okay. Um uh so I've been having that, and I think trip served over ice with uh um in France I've got like a little um herb garden, so putting a little bit of mint or a bit of rosemary in with that, and and and that's actually a really gorgeous drink. My husband is a huge fan of Lucky Saint, actually. Um nothing to do with the fact that we do the the the this report in in conjunction with them, but you know, he just really likes Lucky Saint, um, especially their new um IPA that they bought out um recently. Um and I think other than that, I mean, big fan of Everleaf as well. Um, and and I'm and I'm I could be convinced. See, this just imagine if I was actually drinking all of these with alcohol in, I'd be I'd be absolutely trolleyed within half a year of this barbecue. But no, there's but there's the other thing I'm a big fan of is the low and no versions of gin, specifically the sort of small batch producers, because you can almost taste the care that has gone into that. So, yeah, a low and no gin and tonic, uh, a trip or an Everleaf. Um, and then yeah, let's get some Lucky Saints in for my husband.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Fantastic. What a good selection, what a good selection. I think trip have got some fantastic flavours. I love that they're they they've got such uh and you can really taste the ingredients in there, it's not just this synthetic, you know, little drop of it. Um and and and Lucky Saint, I love their lemon lager, their new lemon.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Oh, so good. Well, also, so I'm not really a beer drinker, which is probably not the thing to admit when you when you too late research research consultancy that literally focuses on going out. No, listen, I I I I have the odd beer, but I'm not a massive beer drinker. But when they bought that out, somebody came over and gave me one. I think it was at the low and no conference that we were at. And I was like, okay. Oh, yeah, that is good. That is really good, very refreshing for a sunny summer. That'd be perfect.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

There you go. Job done. Katie, thank you so much for joining me. It has been a pleasure chatting to you. As I said before, thank you for all the work you're doing in the industry. Um, I highly recommend people go and check out the report. And I look forward to uh next year's and and seeing more progress that is being made in this fascinating industry. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.