Welcome Back Hamish

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hello, hello, and welcome to another rare interview episode of the Mindful Drinking and Moderation in Midlife podcast with me, Denise Hamilton Mace. My guest today is very special because he is the first ever returning guest to the show. I first spoke to Hamish Renton way back in episode 13, where we spoke about something that was quite new at the time, but is now almost ubiquitous, and that is the flat jabs, or as I learnt from Hamish, GLP1 agonists. Did I get that right?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Did it stick?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Now, at the time these were quite new, and we didn't know very much about them except that they are impacting the way that people are enjoying both food and drink. So today I've invited Hamish back because he did a little bit of crystal ball gazing at the time. And now we're going to talk about what has really happened in that time since we last spoke. Um, how these uh fat jabs have impacted those who incorporate them into a life less intoxicated, how they're being used to curb your drinking appetite as well as your uh hunger, and what happens when you stop taking them. I know this is a slightly different direction for the show, but this is the beauty of having a podcast like this that I can bring in experts in their field to share knowledge that I wouldn't otherwise be able to bring you. So I'm very grateful to you for coming back to me, Hamish. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

I'm very well, and I didn't realise I was your first uh it's a rebounder, as they say in Las Vegas, there's nothing sweeter than a repeater.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

So I'm a little absolutely, absolutely. Well, only the best coming back for this audience. Um, so thank you for joining me. I won't get you to do the usual introduction that I often do with guests, but what I will say to everybody is that I will link to uh Hamish's episode, which was episode 13, in the show notes, so you can go and find out a bit about him. In brief, he is the uh CEO of HRA Global, which is an international food and beverage consultancy. So this is really his field. So we spoke, didn't we, Hamish, last time? You explained a little bit about GLP1 agonists and fat jabs. For anyone who's missed it, could you give us just a brief overview of what they are, what they do, and what they've got to do with people who might be drinking differently, and then we can dive into what's been happening since we last spoke.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Perfect. No, great, great question. So this class of drugs has been around for about a decade, and it started off as diabetes meds. So effectively, compounds that are really designed to squash a blood sugar response and allow a diabetic

What do fat jabs do for drinkers?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

to have a consistent level of blood sugar. Uh, and what they found during the testing of these compounds with the diabetics was they all lost weight. Uh, and one of the hypotheses, well, if your blood sugar is steady, you will lose weight, but they figured out there was something else going on. Um, and then the class of drugs were brought were born. And the shorter, snappy shorthand is GLP1, uh glucogen-like peptide receptor. We have these receptors in our bodies, docking stations, um, and we have the endocannaboid system that obviously docks with any cannabides, we have different things that dock with. These GLP1s dock with receptors in our body. And the way to think about them is there's been about four or five of these. So every couple of years, a new drug emerges, and it's a bit like an iPhone. The next drug is a bit more powerful, a bit more spendy, uh, but a bit more kind of punchy than the previous version. So, what we had was a compound um called Lyroglutide that kicked it all off. Then you start to get the names that you would recognize, like a Zempic was four years ago, and you've got Wigovi, you've got Mongiaro, a little bit more recently. Uh, and then now literally coming out of the blocks as we speak is retorutide. We're gonna call it reta, which is the state-of-the-art compound as well. Um, so there's been these iterations, five or six of them over a decade, uh, and they really have this secondary impact, applied from the diabetic piece, that they use what we call off-label. So they're not designed to be used as weight loss meds, but they work. Um, and that's what they call um the these compounds, these GLP ones.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Okay, thank you for that.

5% of people are using GLP-1s

SPEAKER_00 4:55

So, in terms of because obviously this podcast is mostly about low-no and light drinks, let's just jump in a little bit into what impact these are having on that world. Because whilst people have been using them um off-label for weight control, and we've seen it in the it's everywhere, isn't it? It's on uh the newspapers, on the tele, or the celebs. Some are shouting proudly, saying, I'm taking it, and others are denying it, and you're thinking, hmm. But people have been finding that they have an impact on alcohol consumption as well. So, how is it working in that sphere?

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Yeah, so two pieces. So let's talk about the incidence, right? So the estimate at the moment is about 5% of UK um population is using these drugs in one way or another. So one of those those versions. So that's obviously a lot more than is officially sold. So people are getting their hands on this stuff because they're very motivated. I would say if you're motivated to inject yourself once a week, you're going to be motivated to find where this stuff is available online. Uh, and it's a big, big impact. And what you effectively find is when you look at the aggregate statistics, if we add up all the food and drink items that are sold in in the UK, not only are total calories falling per head, but also total units of alcohol are falling. So, in short, it's showing up in sales. People are buying less of certain food items and less booze.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Yeah, they absolutely are. I think it's um it's it's often reported that the way that we are drinking is changing. Uh, there are different claims as to what those numbers are, uh, and you'll probably have a better idea than than I do. But I know they vary a lot, but the general consensus is that the way that we are consuming alcohol is changing. Um, and you think, therefore, that some of that connection, because we can't say all of it, we don't know, but some of that connection is definitely related to the people making use of these fat jabs, these uh GLP1 agonists. Um, and

Triple impact on your desire to drink?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

and how is that impacting, therefore, people's desire to drink or drink less?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yeah, so I mean, three, you know, this new drug, retorutide retta, works in three ways, really. And it's called a sort of triple agonist. So it's almost like you know, you see a packet of toothpaste and it says triple action, Colgate. It's almost like triple action, fat jabs. Um, so and to understand those three actions, then we can understand what it means for drinking behavior. So that it's the first one to hit the market and it reduces insulin sensitivity. So when you do eat sugar, and that sugar could come in the form of a cocktail, say, or it could come in the form of a coke, or it could come in the form of a biscuit, it squashes that blood sugar response, which is kind of helpful. So it's not giving you that immediate sort of dopamine kick that you would normally get, or it might give you half of that kick. And secondly, it reduces glucogen production, and that helps to prevent excess glucose production. So your body doesn't then manufacture lots of glucose like you're getting ready to run a 5k race or a 10k race, and then lastly, it slows down digestion, which of course makes you feel fuller, uh, we could say bloated, right? And therefore, you're not in the mood to have more food or necessarily more drink because you're you're already feeling like your stomach physically is quite full. So that triple action really packs a punch when it comes down to booze. Because I think my thesis, my hypothesis, um, and you won't find this out there. So this is because this is literally just coming out. This retoroutide is in phase two trials, it's not available to buy except on the on the black market at the moment. And and I think what it does is it helps silence what we might call sort of food noise or drink noise. And by noise, I would say if if somebody wants weight loss or they want to cut down drinking, whatever the two is, or maybe they want to do both, they have a persistent, you know, the studies show that they have a because they're focusing on on that objective, I want to reduce my drinking. They have a sort of persistent internal dialogue about drinking, right? And that's often called sort of drink noise. There's a there's a buzz, and it's a that can be a real obstacle because it's kind of always there. You know, they can't run from it because it's in inside them a sort of desire to you know to indulge. And it's a sort of constant preoccupation. And certainly in the early days of somebody trying to manage alcohol or manage food, um, it can be it could that preoccupation can sort of sabotage even the best intentions of a of a clean diet. You know, you want to eat clean, I want to drink clean, but they have this kind of dialogue, this monologue going on. Um, and I think what the latest compounds do, retorutide particularly, shows a lot of promise, not only managing appetite, but it also fundamentally changes the person's relationship with alcohol and with food. And that's really different. So, and and the way to think about it is it's kind of multi-hormonal signalling doing that. That's the shorthand. That's what the triple action means, triple agonies means really. You've got three different hormonal pathways to quiet and that noise internally around I want a drink, I want to escape, I want the buzz, or whatever the motivation would be. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And and and I could see that that somebody would find that appealing as uh perhaps a shortcut to changing the way that they think and feel about alcohol, if they can find something else that could help quiet that it's often called the wine witch, that voice in the back of your head going, no, five o'clock, you know, it's time to have another glass. So

Permanent change or temporary salve?

SPEAKER_00 11:04

I guess that leads me then to the question is that when that quieting down happens, when this triple action takes place, is that it for the user? Have they gone right, okay, that's it. That voice has been turned down. It was at nine, now it's at two, I can carry on with the rest of my life and I don't have to think about it again. Or will they have to take it again tomorrow? You know, is that voice going to be coming back? Are these sorts of things being used as a permanent solution or are they just a temporary salve?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah, great, great question. And the short answer is we don't know, but trials are really promising. Um, and particularly the, you know, I talk about those iPhones, and each iteration gets better. Each iteration gets more sticky, i.e., the behavior that it embeds while the person is taking on it, more of that sticks afterwards, the kind of slower the, if you like, the drift back into the previous norm. And effectively, what it does is it it reduces the mental energy spent on thinking about drink or thinking about food. That's what it does. So it creates this kind of calm, sunny sky that people, you know, and time and space for people to develop new behaviors, new attitudes. And we know from psychology that you've got to do something somewhere between eight and twelve times, and then you've kind of drilled it in, it becomes a habit. So the argument is it becomes a habit at that point to not do this. I I don't drink, I don't indulge in calories, I don't do this, I don't spurge, I don't binge eat, I don't binge drink. You know, it gives you that time and space to to do it. And it and when people do do it, it gives them way less of a reward. You know, they're not getting that buzz, they're not getting that dopamine hit. So they're kind of there thinking, why am I doing this again? And then they start looking at the calories on a can of a cocktail or the calories on a pint of beer, and they think, I don't need that, because if they stop drinking, surprise, surprise, they, you know, there's a significant amount of calories saved in in the average week. So they kind of physically feel not only feel better, feel cleaner, have better sleep, but they're also kind of taking in less calories as well. So I think by helping people get control over their eating and drinking behaviors, it offers not just the potential for substantial weight loss, but a kind of healthier, more kind of balanced lifestyle. But it's the potential for that. It's kind of rolled the road for that, but then the person still needs to walk down that road.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah, I think I think we touched on this a little bit before. So it because the thing is these uh these drugs, these these compounds, they're not the be-all and end all solution, are they? You still need to do the work. The person still needs to uh recognize that they have these voices, these desires, this volume, this noise. Because do people take these constantly, or there's just a sort of short term, aren't they? If they're prescribed properly, which obviously they should be, uh there's a timeline, right?

Dosage, Side Effects, And Timeframes

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Yeah, so uh, and they're not without side effects. So to a certain extent, it is self-limiting. Um, so so classically, the um that there's a step up in dosage. So the first month's dosage is effectively you you wouldn't really notice it. So there aren't the side effects, but there's not much behaviour change, it's just a sort of nudge. And then the second month and the third month, by you've reached the fifth month with these compounds, you're on the sort of you know, getting towards the top dosages, so you're maxing out on the side effects, and then what receptors do is you know, you're feeding it this compound, and the receptor multiplies the the docking points to so it can more easily absorb the compound, which means it works a little bit less, so you need to take more, and then of course you create more side effects. So by the time that folk have been on it for six, nine months, they're getting a bit sick of feeling sick, they're getting a bit sick of feeling bloated, so they're sort of thinking about coming off it. Typically, at that point, they may have lost 10, 15, 20, even 25%, some of the stats shows, of their of their weight, of their body mass. So um, I think there is a self-limiting. This isn't something you would do for a decade, you would you would come off.

Empowering change

SPEAKER_01 15:29

And I think there's three motivations really that would help people stick and stick with this. Firstly, it's a big boost to the person's empowerment and their control. So when you dig into the research, the qualitative research, so the things people say about being on these drugs, they say there's a really significant change in that silencing that constant preoccupation with drinking or eating, you know. That's really important. So that gives them that control, the feel that yeah, I can master this, I can do it. Look, I've done a week, I've done a month, I've done two months. Secondly, there's that health security kicks in after that initial period, and they feel better, they feel cleaner, their sleep improves, their relationships improve, their mental perspective typically improves. So, again, that's important because it kind of gives them a greater quality of life. And then lastly, it's where the last component to come on board is kind of what we might call esteem or status. So it's kind of closely tied to appearance. Okay, so people don't, you know, people will physically look better because they would have, you know, they got the alcohol out of the system, they would have got the you know less calories, so they will kind of like you know start to look better. And that sort of you know, the online they're they're you know, on a webcam or in real life, they will look better, they'll start to get comments from others, and that then feeds the beast and feeds the circle. So you've got empowerment and control at the front end, kind of health in the middle, the feel, the feels, and then lastly that kind of esteem and that validation from others, you know. You look good, what are you doing? You know, yeah. So again, though that's quite a deck of benefits to have over six to nine months. And that really, again, if people can take that into normal life, once they're off these compounds, the bloating goes away, the nausea goes away, the tightness goes away, and they are skinnier, healthier, cleaner versions of themselves with higher esteem, right? Then their maximum chance at that point in actually being able to continue. Doesn't guarantee it though, of course it doesn't, but it puts them in a really good spot to do it.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

That's quite a powerful deck, a triple deck of feelings for people because of that feeling of empowerment, that self-esteem, that I look better, I feel better, people can see it. That's a lot of where issues stem for some people to be able to take back that, I say, take back that power of control and to feel like you're in that uh powerful position. Um, there's a couple of directions, I think, well, there's lots of directions we can go in with this. It's it's absolutely fascinating. I would like to take a moment just here, just to reiterate to anybody who's listening, that neither Hamish nor I are doctors. We are not suggesting that this is something that you should do. This is not medical advice in any way, shape, or form. Uh, and if you are considering these things, Hamish, you did mention earlier on that you this new one, this Rhetta can be found on the black market. Now, I don't want anybody to find anything uh on the black market.

Risks & Unknowns

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Um, you mentioned as well side effects. I appreciate that the weight loss is initially a side effect of these drugs in the first place. Um, but there are some risks, aren't there? There are some dangers around these, and I think we should look at that as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Yeah, so as as the trials have got longer and we've got more data, so we've got about six years kind of mass consumption data on these now, going back to lyroglutide. Um, there are um unexpected benefits that are starting to emerge on cardiovascular health. Um now, obviously, if somebody's got stable blood sugar, that's a benefit, but there seems to be an additional benefit that that while people are on these compounds, they have less cardiovascular events, i.e., strokes, heart attacks, etc. So that's curious, and and the mechanism of action there is not known. Okay, so that's the first thing. And we can kind of measure it, we can kind of see it, and it's starting to emerge, but we don't know why, uh, which is puzzling. And secondly, on the other side, there are some organs seem impacted by it as well. So um there is uh, and certainly anecdotal friends of mine who are GP are sick of people coming into the practice saying, I'm feeling nauseous all the time. I feel like my life has lost meaning. I feel stuffed all the time, I've got headaches all the time. And the doctor says, Are you taking any GLP ones? And they say, Yes. They say, Oh, great. Well, come back to me when you're not taking them and we'll have a chat about how you're feeling. But more seriously than that, so so there is there is some kind of feel bads associated with it. This is not a plane sailing across a very calm sea. This is this is turbulent, this is um, you know, some of the side effects, particularly the gastric emptying, is is as it sounds, can be a bit unpleasant. But also beyond that, there is some impact on some organs, particularly kind of kidneys, um, where in certain cases, and maybe thyroid as well, where if people are prone to something genetically, this can accelerate those things. So it is not without risk at all. Um, so it's a very calibrated judgment. Somebody, you know, ideally in consultation with a physician would say, Well, look, what are my risks on this compound versus what are the benefits? You know, it gives me a chance to reset, gives me a chance to do this, that, and the other, but here are the risks, and then take an adult view on it. So it isn't something you should self-diagnose and and and source it yourself because that's naive in the extreme. So I think that's that's important to say. It is not a free pass, but there are things that are better than we thought and a lot worse than we thought, and we don't fully understand them. All right. And as this field matures, we will get our arms around what's going on there.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

And and you mentioned as well before we pressed record, you know, that there's these are open to abuse from those who are looking to make a quick buck or a quick quid. Uh, and you know, if you if you if you don't do this through the proper channels, you could end up with something that's not what you think it it is, which it could just be so dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, exactly. And I think I think it's a it's a complication because um it's pri these drugs are priced differently in different countries. You know, in America they're thousands of dollars, over here they're a couple of hundred quid a month. Some European companies they're you know 50-60 quid, which creates what we call, we economists call arbitrage opportunities. You know, you drive somewhere, you fill your boots up with them, and you come back and you sell them on the L Kent Road, you know. So um, and people obviously make you know they're they're not complicated molecules to reproduce, so in an underground lab you can produce them as well. But I think you'd be very well advised to steer clear of those since you have no comeback whatsoever on the you know the micro environment that's used to make those. So there are a lot of knockoffs, as we say, go you know, doing the rounds at the moment. Um

Still "fat" inside: You need to do the work

SPEAKER_01 22:23

and and what's interesting that I do want to stress is it's not for me a substitute for a program of introspection or a 12-step program. It is not, it's almost a press fast forward to the point that you finished a 12-step program physically, but you haven't had that mental journey. You haven't worked through the steps, you haven't examined what's led you to this position in the beginning, be it food, be it drink, or be it both. So I think you know, the you know, the critics, and I think rightly say, well, look, you know, you know, is you know, for weight loss, it's cool, well, the person is still fat inside is the parlance, but they haven't done the work to understand what's driving the unhealthy eating in the first place, you know. Is it an emotional need? Is it some repressed trauma? Is it comfort eating? Is you know what is it that's driving that? And in the drinking sense as well, is it is it stress, is it a physical addiction, is it, you know, what what is driving that, you know, slightly problematic drinking? Until you've unpacked that and worked with it and faced that shadow, you do run the risk that this will reoccur. So these can be really good compounds to go alongside a 12-step program, but they will give you a slightly false sense of security because you haven't done the heavy lifting yourself, the molecule have. So you've sort of postponed that moment of judgment when you're off the molecule and you're faced with life, all its temptations, all its stresses, all its triggers. So I think that's a really important point that it's a different pathway to uh cold turkey, 12-step, you know, wrestling, the demons, and and and wrestling, you know, an honest reflection with your your your addictions. It is different to that, and it might take you physically to the same point, but you haven't done the legwork. So that is important to note.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

I couldn't agree more. I think the same with this, and uh, there's another drug that I'm aware of, which is naltrexone, which is becoming uh more frequently used in terms of reducing alcohol. They they both do similar things, so they don't uh stop you from drinking. You can still physically drink, it's not going to make you uh instantly uh regurgitate it like some of these uh medications do. But you still have to do the work. You still have to understand uh where alcohol has uh taken uh a different path in your life, what you want that path to look like going forward, if you still want it to be in part of your life or not at all. So there's I I think that's why you kind of used the phrase before, shortcut. Um, but at the end of the day, you still got to get to the place where you as an individual on your own can understand what your relationship with alcohol or food in this case or anything else uh really, as you say, stems from. Um, I'd

GLP‑1s & the social drinking impact

SPEAKER_00 25:13

love to um, with uh the last section, take a look at how this is impacting our actual drinking and the the drinks uh and of course the food that people will still consume. Because as we've just established, it doesn't necessarily stop you from drinking alcohol. It might just stop you from drinking as much, or importantly, from getting the joy from it. So, what impact does that have, in your professional opinion, for those in the uh in the stage of life where they're looking at their alcohol intake, they might be thinking, do you know what? I still love the taste of a beer, but I don't want as much alcohol. So maybe I'll try an alcohol-free beer or I'll try an alcohol-free wine. Would they still get less enjoyment from that? Is it going to impact enjoyment of all indulgences uh altogether? Uh and I guess that leads to the second part, which you can come to when you're ready, is that what do brands need to do then to make sure that they can serve people still?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah, great. Great set of questions. So I I think if we talk about out of home first, you know, so we talk about socializing. So we you're going out. People on these compounds go out less, full stop. Okay. As in terms of a night on the tiles or out with friends, they're just less social. They actually do more exercise. So they walk the dog more, they do go to the park more, they nibble at going out, but that set these sort of Friday night, Saturday night, you know, school, school nights, they do less. Um, so when they do go out, they they want that feeling to justify going out. So, what does that mean? They typically are a bit nauseous, so they need they need food that can quickly be eaten whilst the the urge to eat is still there. So they need drink that is ready to be drunk whilst the urge is there. They don't want necessarily a pint because it might take them 20 minutes to eat a pint, and the first five minutes they're feeling good, and then the next 10 minutes are like, oh, I really don't want to eat or drink anything anymore. Um, can we go home now, please? So they want something that that that is a pretty fast start of a drink and that is over pretty quickly. Okay. Secondly, they tend to have, how shall I put it, more delicate stomachs. Okay, so whilst, you know, whilst which is which is unfortunate, because what they also have is effectively kind of squashed sensory receptors. So they they need bolder, stronger flavors. So in the food terms, that would be kind of more chilies, more spices, more kind of savory notes would do it for them, which tend to be associated with kind of you know, kind of gastro distress. So in drinking terms, they need kind of stronger flavours, bolder flavors, smaller amounts of liquid. So you're probably talking 200 mil, you know, kind of more cocktails, less pints, more, you know, more kind of wine glasses, less kind of you know, longer, taller, taller glasses. And they need the whole thing to be quicker because they can't guarantee that they're gonna be still at it two hours later. So they don't go out and stay out for five hours. That's not how people on this compound behave. They go out, they'll have a meal, and then they'll come back. So they behave, they behave like a whole generation older than they actually are. So if they're young people used to going out for the entire evening, they tend to go out for sort of three hours. If they're middle-aged, they tend to go out for 90 minutes like their parents would do, right? And they tend to go out earlier and they tend to come home earlier, too, as well. So they it's very curious, and it is showing up in the statistics because it means what does it mean for brand? What does it mean for if you like hospitality operators, bars, restaurants, etc.? It means smaller portions on the food element, maybe even child's portions. You are talking about because people are eating 500, 700 calories less, every meal is 20, 30 percent less, right? Talking bolder flavours, you're talking about more of a focus on nutrients, because I'm not eating much. I've got to make sure what I do eat nourishes me. And therefore, the role for drinks is kind of their companions to those sorts of foods, smaller portions, more bang for your buck in terms of the you know, the the tastes.

Functional Drinks, Nootropics, And Flavour

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Um, you are finding a bigger market in in, if you like, nootropics, so kind of you know, you know, tasty, um, you know, things that will give a buzz but not metabolized by the liver. So things that go sort of straight to the brain and make the brain um more buzzy, you know, lion's mane, medicinal mushrooms, those those sorts of things, very interesting. So they're having a moment as well. So I think it's changing. And you can, you know, with 5% of the country doing that, that really is taking the edge off some old patterns of behaviours as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

It's interesting you mentioned nootropics. As you were speaking, I was thinking about that functional drink space is really quite primed to serve people who are uh using these sorts of compounds. You know, your adaptogenic drinks that uh will have natural herbs in them that will give you uh a bodily boost and give you energy, um, and perhaps add back in some vitamins and some minerals that that. You might not be getting because you're not uh eating as much. And then, as you say, the nootropics, which will have more of a cognitive effect and help you feel sharper. Because again, if you're not eating very much, your brain is going to get tired because your brain needs nourishment. So I can absolutely see that that functional space.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Exactly. And the tropics that go straight to the brain and that can cross the blood brain barrier as opposed to going through the liver and into the bloodstream and around it are much better because it's that liver pathway that the GLP ones are affecting, whereas the straight blood brain barrier is open for business as normal. So anything that goes straight to the brain, you know, medicinal mushrooms, etc., are exactly what would really hit the spot as well.

The 'bad breath' problem

SPEAKER_01 31:17

So it's a really interesting piece. The other piece is chewing gum sales are going off the roof because everybody, of course, it's back to the Atkins, everybody's got some Atkins breath if they're having sort of 70 calories. It's just an unfortunate side effect of metabolizing and oxidizing fat. Where does the fat go? We breathe it out. That's where it goes. We don't pee it out or poop it out, it comes out of our airways. So we need a little bit of freshness there. All right. So which is unfortunate because a lot of chewing gum is full of plastic, but that is another story, okay?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Well, as they say, every day is a school day. I wasn't expecting that little nugget at the end. I must say I'm a I'm a tree-ball extra strong girl. I don't like the chewing gum effect, but so give that a try.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

But it does say in drinks, that's why you're seeing kind of mints and those kind of stronger flavours coming back in because people quite like those, because it masks what's going on in their own turbulogy. They might not know why they suddenly like mint, they might not know that, but that's what's going on. I think it's it's gonna pick another. Have some more mints.

Where's the enjoyment?

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I think it's a really interesting one for the industry and for what it's going to say for drinks going forward. Because obviously, not everybody is taking these compounds, but brands will have to make drinks that serve them, and therefore those drinks will become available to all of us. I've noticed that there are a few more brands in the lono space now who have started doing smaller sizes. Uh, part of that is obviously for sampling because people who are new to Lono might not feel confident to commit to a 30, 40 pound bottle of a spirit that they've they've never tried before. But there's definitely that that pathway to merge those two reasonings and to be able to serve this whole sector of people who are drinking differently, differently. It's kind of like a double difference, isn't it? And and uh finding ways to still find enjoyment in. Because the the one thing that I take away from this that worries me is that you know, I want people to still be able to enjoy their lives. It's all well and good. We take these compounds and everybody's a size zero again. But if you're not enjoying life, if you're not enjoying the flavors on your plate and the drinks in your glass and the company you're having and the time with people, then what's the point in it all?

SPEAKER_01 33:35

I

Boost to midlife sober clubbing

SPEAKER_01 33:36

think that's really good because I I I I'm a little I'm a bit pessimistic for the human race. Um, and I'm a bit pessimistic. This environment we've built of food and drink to surround us and going with our lives and our working patterns, the whole system. I I think we could well be unable to, you know, sensibly deal with this without the use of molecules. So if I'm right, we're going to be popping pills and injecting ourselves for the next couple of hundred years until we've drilled in some new behaviours and we still want to have a good time. We still got Friday nights, we still got Saturday nights. What are we going to do in those scenarios? You know, I think it's good news for clubs, actually. You could see this as a resurgence of nightclub because people who want to go out and have a good time at a sober rave or you know, an ecstatic dance or any of those events, we're really seeing that scene explode at the moment. And a lot of the people who've drifted into it tend to be in their, you know, whisper it quietly, in their 40s and 50s, and they may well have come in through a GLP one. And they were sort of hardcore ravers in the 90s, but now they're popped up again. Here they are doing the same stuff, but this time it's not sort of four pints of Stella that's fueling them, it might be a NASCAL or it might be uh, you know, any form of drink or a nootropic that that's keeping them going, and they've got the energy to keep going, you know, which they wouldn't have had five years ago when they were kind of you know different versions of themselves. So I think it's it's reshaping that nighttime economy and what it means to go out, and I think it's bringing dance and movement and body and socialization back, but without all that kind of slightly kind of layeriness that that surrounded it that was fueled by alcohol itself. So it's a it's a cleaner, more uh more open space, a safer space, kind of mentally and and and physically for people. And I think that's starting to happen. You're starting to see clubs emerge and do those, and they don't tend to be in the middle of cities or the middle of towns, they tend to be you know in in different locations. And you can look at the festival scene for for what goes on there as well, and the free party scene again is another expression of that. Um very little booze at free parties, you know. There are various compounds, not necessarily just GLPYs, but you know, it's a very different vibe as well. So I think the the whole scene is reshaping, um, and that kind of classic town, city centre, pubs open, you know, we hit the pub at eight, you know, we do pre's, we hit the pub, and then we go through and we come home at four. That's all changing, you know. Um and the clientele is changing as well, it's an older bracket going to the club. So we may soon be at sort of peak club closures, and we might see some new growth in that sector because the way we drink and the way we do our do our downtime is changing. And GLP one is part of that in a way. It's uh it's a gateway drug to a cleaner life, is perhaps the best way to think about it. If somebody can use it to springboard into a kind of healthier, more empowered, more open, um you know, healthier life.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

This has been absolutely fascinating. There are so many more questions that I can ask you, Hamish. You might end up being the first person to come back three times because there's so much to cover here. I love everything that you've just been saying. This is particularly pertinent to my audience. You know, we are midlifers who still want to enjoy life, we still want to go out, or we have the financial means to go and enjoy these clubs, these bars, these restaurants, these places, that as long as they can serve us and recognize what it is that that we want, whether that be through the use of things like GLP1, Naltrexone, or just making a decision to drink differently because it serves you better, because maybe you've got to get up in the morning and deal with the kids. Um, this

Finding Hamish & HRA-Global

SPEAKER_00 37:33

this is fascinating. For those who want to find out a bit more about you, Hamish and HRA. Um, before I let you go, could you tell us a little bit uh uh about how you can help people and where they can find you?

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah, sure. So I guess you know, there's a couple of couple of things here. Um we work a lot with brands uh and drinks companies uh in this space, low and no, particularly. So do check us out at HRA Global. Um that's HRABL.com. Um you can see various things that I've written in this space. Uh, there's a bunch of videos there on GRP1 um as well, particularly the implications if you're a bar owner or a brand owner or a hospitality uh event uh organizer. There's all sorts of cues and clues there that are starting to emerge. I post a lot about this. Um, it's probably the most significant thing happening in food and drink right now, in my eyes. Um, and boringly, we're all going to be sick of it and it's just gonna become the norm for the next, you know, cut you know, certainly a couple of decades for the rest of our natural lives, this phenomenon. So we might as well get our heads around it now and see if we can twist it into a positive direction for people.

The BBQ-Q

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Amazing. Amazing. Last thing before I let you go, I'm sure you remember this from last time, but everybody who comes on the show, I asked them this one question. Although we are now heading into winter, I'd like to cast your mind forward to barbecue season and imagine you are off to a friend's house for a wonderful, sunny afternoon barbecue. What drinks in the low, no, or light space are you bringing with you to enjoy, Hamish?

SPEAKER_01 39:04

I love tomato juice and Worcester sauce and a little bit of lemon, uh, and I love as much of that as I can get. But my go-to to carry is NASCAL. I just really find that's a really good one when I go out of an evening. That's what fuels me. Um, I I love it. It just gives me a little bit of a buzz. I don't want a massive buzz, but just gives me enough and the tang on it. So I could be Nascal as a carry-out, but as much kind of genuine tomato juice. I like the big Tom. Um, but if somebody can do it in front of me, you know, in a wonderful club, sometimes they do it in front. I I love that too.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

So I've discovered two great Virgin Mary brands. So uh Bloody Benz, Bloody Benz is uh amazing, and another one called Longbottom. So yeah, they are they're if you like them spicy as well, if you like a bit of flavour in your Virgin Mary. Um, and then obviously those who uh are are still consuming alcohol can pop in a bit of vodka if they so wish, or a lovely bit of alcohol-free vodka as well. But they're really lovely. Bloody bends and long bottom.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

I'm gonna track those down. I do.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

All right. Hey Mish, thank you so much for joining me today and for uh breaking down what uh can be quite an intimidating, uh complex subject into something that's really simple for people to understand and make a decision as to whether or not it should be part of the way that they choose to drink differently. I really appreciate you being here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Perfect. Enjoyed it. Thanks.